Rules that need/should be changed?

[DiscipleofPenick]

Make the foot wedge legal????     But on a more serious note, definitely allowing to remove ball from a divot in the fairway. Seems unfair to punish a good drive in the fairway. 

That was my point. Shouldn't be punished for hitting the ball in the right place.

Take Dead Aim

[DaveP043]

2 minutes ago, Tsmithjr9 said:

That was my point. Shouldn't be punished for hitting the ball in the right place.

I just don't see this as "punishment".  You're still rewarded with the best line forward, generally free of hindrances like trees and tall rough.  By the "punishment" idea, it would be unfair to be on the downhill side of a hump in the fairway, or on a bit of a dry semi-bare patch, or some other non-ideal spot.

[RickyBobby_PR]

2 hours ago, Tsmithjr9 said:

Move the ball out of a divot in the fairway. I shouldn't be penalized because some jackwagon ripped the place up before I got there.

Maybe some common sense Ground-under-repair rules in general? Yesterday I hit a shot in the rough and the whole area was ripped up with 6-inch deep tractor (not cart) tractor marks. Because the course didn't rope it off or put a white line down, it's not officially GUR. By USGA I gotta hit it out of that ditch. White line or no, it's GUR.

I'd like to see the USGA come to a normal public course and see what golf is like when conditions aren't always pristine. I feel like they'd make lots of changes if they took into account that not everywhere is a Shinnecock.

Take Dead Aim
 

You should have to place your ball back at the tree or any object you hit and got a favorable bounce on. If a good shot with a bad break should be rewarded then a a bad shot with a good break should be penalized by placing the ball back in the spot where the good break occurred right

[Briton]

38 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I just don't see this as "punishment".  You're still rewarded with the best line forward, generally free of hindrances like trees and tall rough.  By the "punishment" idea, it would be unfair to be on the downhill side of a hump in the fairway, or on a bit of a dry semi-bare patch, or some other non-ideal spot.

I see what you are saying but  the way i see it is a divot in the fairway is a "man-made" obstacle. A downhill side of a hump in the fairway and semi-bare patch are natural things, things that come naturally or designed in the architecture of the course in the fairway i would not consider being punishment or unfair. That is where i agree with a divot in the fairway and not being able to remove the ball from it is unfair/punishment.

[bens197]

Delete

[Titleist87]

20 hours ago, Briton said:

Just a random topic but what are some rules and things you think should be changed?

 

for example: not being able to remove your ball from a divot in the fairway.

While I agree you should not be penalized for landing in the fairway, the issue becomes when is a divot not a divot? Purely a judgement call and so is really the entire rules of golf wherein the player is responsible for administering the rules. Really boils down to the player deciding if the divot is healed or still a divot.

[Briton]

11 minutes ago, Titleist87 said:

While I agree you should not be penalized for landing in the fairway, the issue becomes when is a divot not a divot? Purely a judgement call and so is really the entire rules of golf wherein the player is responsible for administering the rules. Really boils down to the player deciding if the divot is healed or still a divot.

Ya that is the toughest issue is what qualifies. If im playing and i end up in a divot in the fairway i  am not mad about it if it has sand fill in it or if someone tried to repair it with their divot pelt and stepped on it to flatten it down.

[RetiredBoomer]

Explain this "rules" concept to me.

Nobody in my circles seems to know much about them.

[CarlH]

I don't mind hitting out of a divot in the fairway, fixed or not.  At least "normal" divots -- not trenches some people leave behind.

[DiscipleofPenick]

I don't mind hitting out of a divot in the fairway, fixed or not.  At least "normal" divots -- not trenches some people leave behind.

That's what I'm talking about.

Take Dead Aim

[chisag]

5 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

I just don't see this as "punishment".  You're still rewarded with the best line forward, generally free of hindrances like trees and tall rough.  By the "punishment" idea, it would be unfair to be on the downhill side of a hump in the fairway, or on a bit of a dry semi-bare patch, or some other non-ideal spot.

 

... There is a big difference between a less than ideal lie like a slope or a bare spot where you can get the club on the ball cleanly and a divot that has irresponsibly not been replaced. Nothing worse than hitting a perfect drive that ends up in a deep divot and against the front that can actually injure your wrist when hitting down and through.I have been in divots where the entire ball is below ground level. Pro's and many at Private CC's have nice watered and manicured fairways where this isn't as much of a problem, but go to a typical muni where some 1/2 drunk jackazz takes a deep divot and does not replace it and you are looking at a possible injury. While I am on the subject, I would like to see a rule allowing a drop in the bunker when that same jackazz doesn't rake after digging in and your ball ends up in their deep heel print.

[RickyBobby_PR]

25 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

... There is a big difference between a less than ideal lie like a slope or a bare spot where you can get the club on the ball cleanly and a divot that has irresponsibly not been replaced. Nothing worse than hitting a perfect drive that ends up in a deep divot and against the front that can actually injure your wrist when hitting down and through.I have been in divots where the entire ball is below ground level. Pro's and many at Private CC's have nice watered and manicured fairways where this isn't as much of a problem, but go to a typical muni where some 1/2 drunk jackazz takes a deep divot and does not replace it and you are looking at a possible injury. While I am on the subject, I would like to see a rule allowing a drop in the bunker when that same jackazz doesn't rake after digging in and your ball ends up in their deep heel print.

No one has to hit out if a badly or unrepaired divot or a non raked bunker. There are rules that allow the person to not hit that shot.

Nothing like hitting a terrible shot and the course construction gives you a favorable kick.

golf is a game of good and bad breaks. 

[DaveP043]

12 hours ago, chisag said:

... There is a big difference between a less than ideal lie like a slope or a bare spot where you can get the club on the ball cleanly and a divot that has irresponsibly not been replaced. Nothing worse than hitting a perfect drive that ends up in a deep divot and against the front that can actually injure your wrist when hitting down and through.I have been in divots where the entire ball is below ground level. Pro's and many at Private CC's have nice watered and manicured fairways where this isn't as much of a problem, but go to a typical muni where some 1/2 drunk jackazz takes a deep divot and does not replace it and you are looking at a possible injury. While I am on the subject, I would like to see a rule allowing a drop in the bunker when that same jackazz doesn't rake after digging in and your ball ends up in their deep heel print.

Perhaps I'm out of touch with public courses, but I'd be willing to bet that landing in a divot hole of this type doesn't happen very often.  Once a month?  Less?  I'm not talking a run-of-the-mill inconvenient divot hole, I'm talking about this extreme example, one where the entire ball is below the level of the fairway.  I'm not entirely sure that I've ever seen one this deep.  And that includes a bunch of holidays spent at the home of drunk jackazz out-of-towners, Myrtle Beach.  

As for bunkers, perhaps we should go back to the rakes once used at Oakmont, the kind that make furrows, so you NEVER have a good lie in a bunker.  That might make being in a footprint seem like a blessing.

[DiscipleofPenick]

Perhaps I'm out of touch with public courses, but I'd be willing to bet that landing in a divot hole of this type doesn't happen very often.  Once a month?  Less?  I'm not talking a run-of-the-mill inconvenient divot hole, I'm talking about this extreme example, one where the entire ball is below the level of the fairway.  I'm not entirely sure that I've ever seen one this deep.  And that includes a bunch of holidays spent at the home of drunk jackazz out-of-towners, Myrtle Beach.  
As for bunkers, perhaps we should go back to the rakes once used at Oakmont, the kind that make furrows, so you NEVER have a good lie in a bunker.  That might make being in a footprint seem like a blessing.

I agree with you on the bunkers. The quality of them on private and PGA courses is so nice that often pros aim for the bunkers as the sand is preferable to the rough. Oakmont rakes everywhere! Or no rakes, like we're forced to during this quarantine. Personally, and maybe bit extreme, but I think 90% of munis should just remove bunkers. They don't have the resources to maintain them and they only slow down play.

Take Dead Aim

[bens197]

Perhaps I'm out of touch with public courses, but I'd be willing to bet that landing in a divot hole of this type doesn't happen very often.  Once a month?  Less?  I'm not talking a run-of-the-mill inconvenient divot hole, I'm talking about this extreme example, one where the entire ball is below the level of the fairway.  I'm not entirely sure that I've ever seen one this deep.  And that includes a bunch of holidays spent at the home of drunk jackazz out-of-towners, Myrtle Beach.  
As for bunkers, perhaps we should go back to the rakes once used at Oakmont, the kind that make furrows, so you NEVER have a good lie in a bunker.  That might make being in a footprint seem like a blessing.

This isn’t a public v private debate, rather entitlement v respecting the course. The advantage private clubs have is a better equipped and funded grounds crew to handle wear and tear. Too many people among each demographic are too lazy or careless to take care of the course and we pay the price.

I like your bunker idea. Make it a true hazard and not an opportunity to avoid punitive rough.

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, bens197 said:

This isn’t a public v private debate, rather entitlement v respecting the course. The advantage private clubs have is a better equipped and funded grounds crew to handle wear and tear. Too many people among each demographic are too lazy or careless to take care of the course and we pay the price.

I like your bunker idea. Make it a true hazard and not an opportunity to avoid punitive rough.

I play lots of public courses from munis to higher courses. I see unfilled divots and unrepaired ball marks on greens at all of them. In my experience many of these come from older golfers who lack the mobility to bend down to fix a mark or get their divot and replace it. The rest is laziness to do them or take the sand off the cart where courses use that vice replacing divot.

Ive played some private courses in the area and it’s been hit or miss on how well the members take care of their course. 
 

Like Dave said how many times does someone land in a divot in the fairway. I can think of all the times I have and it’s less than 10 over the course of 20+ years. 

[bens197]

I play lots of public courses from munis to higher courses. I see unfilled divots and unrepaired ball marks on greens at all of them. In my experience many of these come from older golfers who lack the mobility to bend down to fix a mark or get their divot and replace it. The rest is laziness to do them or take the sand off the cart where courses use that vice replacing divot.
Ive played some private courses in the area and it’s been hit or miss on how well the members take care of their course. 
 
Like Dave said how many times does someone land in a divot in the fairway. I can think of all the times I have and it’s less than 10 over the course of 20+ years. 

Good point on the bad backs and the blue flag crew.

I don’t know about you guys but it’s almost second nature to expect to fix 2-3 ball marks on the green prior to every putt.

[xOldBenKenobiX]

On 4/7/2020 at 6:37 PM, PlaidJacket said:

I don't know but...

Personally I'd like to see "them" make a rule where you don't have to use a golf club on approach shots. Instead you simply place it on the green where you think you'd hit it. That'd be a great rule change IMO. Anyone else go for that?

Would that rule allow for placing it on the cup?

Great suggestion by the way.

[xOldBenKenobiX]

On 4/7/2020 at 7:25 PM, dlow206 said:

I think the USGA should allow solo rounds to be posted.

Completely agree, I play a lot first light golf and mostly I play by myself, so it does not count for anything.

[xOldBenKenobiX]

On 4/8/2020 at 8:19 AM, palvord said:

This isn't an official rule, but I would like it if golf courses allowed more than a foursome out as a group provided they keep pace.

I have seen twosomes take an eternity compared to a group of six. 

I really like that idea, somehow we are always stuck behind a slow group, I cannot deal with taking 6 hours to play 18

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, bens197 said:

Good point on the bad backs and the blue flag crew.

I don’t know about you guys but it’s almost second nature to expect to fix 2-3 ball marks on the green prior to every putt.

That’s my expectation and 99% of the course I frequent and it doesn’t matter if it’s early round or mid to late afternoon. 

[chisag]

3 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

Perhaps I'm out of touch with public courses, but I'd be willing to bet that landing in a divot hole of this type doesn't happen very often.  Once a month?  Less?  I'm not talking a run-of-the-mill inconvenient divot hole, I'm talking about this extreme example, one where the entire ball is below the level of the fairway.  I'm not entirely sure that I've ever seen one this deep.  And that includes a bunch of holidays spent at the home of drunk jackazz out-of-towners, Myrtle Beach.  

As for bunkers, perhaps we should go back to the rakes once used at Oakmont, the kind that make furrows, so you NEVER have a good lie in a bunker.  That might make being in a footprint seem like a blessing.

 

... Dave, you were the kid that told the teacher on Friday when the bell rang "You forgot to give us homework!" weren't you?  These are just opinions of course and all equally valid but there is a HUGE difference between furrows in the bunker, rake marks or an uneven lie and someones very deep heel print. I play muni's most of the time and some bunkers after an outing looking like someone was building sand castles in them. Always sucks to see a clean bunker with footprints going to the ball, a deep sand gouge (or 2/3) and then footprints leaving in a different direction. And before you ask yes, this happens a lot. 

... And as far as that deep divot where my ball was completely below ground level has probably happened 5 times in 40 years but I was using it as an example. I have had plenty with the ball in a bad spot, not just sitting in sand or in a shallow divots which is actually a challenge I enjoy. Again just my opinion, but folks from CC's, in tourneys or on tour do not deal with the kind of course conditions found at a typical muni nor do they deal with the casual golfer that is more interested in socializing with plenty of alcohol than actually playing golf or having any concern at all for course conditions. 

[DiscipleofPenick]

Completely agree, I play a lot first light golf and mostly I play by myself, so it does not count for anything.

I post anyways. Otherwise I wouldn't have enough scores to have a handicap.

Take Dead Aim

[DiscipleofPenick]

Good point on the bad backs and the blue flag crew.

I don’t know about you guys but it’s almost second nature to expect to fix 2-3 ball marks on the green prior to every putt.

The pitch marks are a different story. I'm not dismissive of the senior point as that is part of it. But most people don't walk anymore so they enter the green from the side or back, and the mark is towards the front. Unless the mark is next to where the ball stopped, people generally don't bother walking over and fixing their mark.

Take Dead Aim

[CarlH]

I've played city muni courses, private courses, and higher end public courses.....doesn't matter.  It all boils down to the golfer.  There are those that repair divots, pitch marks, and rake bunkers and there are those that just don't for whatever reason.  Be the first kind!

[DaveP043]

3 hours ago, chisag said:

 

... Dave, you were the kid that told the teacher on Friday when the bell rang "You forgot to give us homework!" weren't you?  These are just opinions of course and all equally valid but there is a HUGE difference between furrows in the bunker, rake marks or an uneven lie and someones very deep heel print. I play muni's most of the time and some bunkers after an outing looking like someone was building sand castles in them. Always sucks to see a clean bunker with footprints going to the ball, a deep sand gouge (or 2/3) and then footprints leaving in a different direction. And before you ask yes, this happens a lot. 

... And as far as that deep divot where my ball was completely below ground level has probably happened 5 times in 40 years but I was using it as an example. I have had plenty with the ball in a bad spot, not just sitting in sand or in a shallow divots which is actually a challenge I enjoy. Again just my opinion, but folks from CC's, in tourneys or on tour do not deal with the kind of course conditions found at a typical muni nor do they deal with the casual golfer that is more interested in socializing with plenty of alcohol than actually playing golf or having any concern at all for course conditions. 

I'm a guy who tries to understand the rules, how they've evolved, and the logic that ties them together.  I'm a guy who is willing to try to evaluate a proposed rule change, but in the case of divots and bunkers, I haven't ever read anything that's even close to enforceable and effective.  I understand complaints about the idiots who choose not to do their job in caring for a golf course, but that's not a rules issue, its a moron issue.  We can't make rules to fix stupidity.  This thread is about rules, right?

I also have issues with using a "once a decade" example as a reason to change rules.  Rules aren't intended to address every situation situation that happens once per 1000 rounds, if they were the book would be 1000 pages.  I have no problem if you want to move the ball out of a divot hole in casual play, or employ a "rake and place" policy in poorly maintained bunkers.  But if you think the rules should change, try to write something that is clear enough to be consistently enforced.

[DaveP043]

3 hours ago, Tsmithjr9 said:

I post anyways. Otherwise I wouldn't have enough scores to have a handicap.

Do I remember right, you recently joined a club?  If you have an active Handicap Committee there, consistently posting solo scores would be a reason for them to take a really close look at you, to take disciplinary action, to modify your handicap, or even to completely withdraw your handicap.  I don't say this would or should happen, but knowingly and repeatedly breaking the handicap rules is just wrong.

[chisag]

48 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I'm a guy who tries to understand the rules, how they've evolved, and the logic that ties them together.  I'm a guy who is willing to try to evaluate a proposed rule change, but in the case of divots and bunkers, I haven't ever read anything that's even close to enforceable and effective.  I understand complaints about the idiots who choose not to do their job in caring for a golf course, but that's not a rules issue, its a moron issue.  We can't make rules to fix stupidity.  This thread is about rules, right?

I also have issues with using a "once a decade" example as a reason to change rules.  Rules aren't intended to address every situation situation that happens once per 1000 rounds, if they were the book would be 1000 pages.  I have no problem if you want to move the ball out of a divot hole in casual play, or employ a "rake and place" policy in poorly maintained bunkers.  But if you think the rules should change, try to write something that is clear enough to be consistently enforced.

 

... Dave you strike me as the kind of guy that drives the speed limit on the highway in the far left lane because you know, the rules and all. (I kid ... hopefully) I am a lifelong hippie and ignoring the rules that I think are arbitrary and stupid has always been how I live my life. Evil weed, the conservative villain in Refer Madness is now 100% legal in so many places. I can't imagine how it is recreationally legal in Washington and Oregon but just across the border in Idaho it isn't even legal medically for people that really have a need. More insanely stupid rules. 

... Golf is an exception to my normal lifestyle because if you want to play and compete, unlike other sports the rules of golf are rigid and unwavering. If I had a facemark call because a ref thought a defender pulled on mine, I certainly did not go to the ref and tell him his hand was on my helmet, not my facemark. But golf is unique and we call penalties on ourself, even playing alone. I think some rules are capricious and silly, put in place to stop morons from cheating, not to create a level playing field. So I get it, the rules are the rules but that doesn't mean I have to like all of them and wish some were changed, which is what this thread is about. It seems like you are the defender of the rules so you and I are just on completely opposite sides of this topic and while I disagree with you, I certainly respect your opinions.   

[yungkory]

I tell my playing partners to move their ball out of divots, roots, cart paths, whatever if it means they wont damage their bodies or their equipment. At the end of the day, you have to make the next shot. Keeping the ability within the player, right? The Rules of Golf state the fundamental principle that “golf is a challenging game in which success should depend on the player’s judgment, skills and abilities (clipped from the USGA distance report on 2/4/20202). Adding a divot to measure the lack of skills/abilities I have is just cruel -- especially because Danny the D-bag felt like filling a divot is beneath someone of his worldly importance. The fact that the pros can get rulings to give them significant advantages where they would be otherwise royally screwed, but people get up in arms about moving it out of a hole in the ground that wasn't placed there by the course, shows how asinine some of the rules are.

[DiscipleofPenick]

I tell my playing partners to move their ball out of divots, roots, cart paths, whatever if it means they wont damage their bodies or their equipment. At the end of the day, you have to make the next shot. Keeping the ability within the player, right? The Rules of Golf state the fundamental principle that “golf is a challenging game in which success should depend on the player’s judgment, skills and abilities (clipped from the USGA distance report on 2/4/20202). Adding a divot to measure the lack of skills/abilities I have is just cruel -- especially because Danny the D-bag felt like filling a divot is beneath someone of his worldly importance. The fact that the pros can get rulings to give them significant advantages where they would be otherwise royally screwed, but people get up in arms about moving it out of a hole in the ground that wasn't placed there by the course, shows how asinine some of the rules are.

Good point. At the end of the day rules should not contradict common sense. As it says in the Little Red Book, the rules exist to protect YOU.

Take Dead Aim