Scratch Golf Controversy

[TWShoot67]

All I know when I first posted this topic Ari has always been open and available for any questions I had for him personally. The same goes for Bill Holowaty over at Miura USA. I'm glad all this has been brought to a open forum where everyone has had the opportunity to ask any question they felt necessary to be answered. It's also refreshing to see an owner who's been posting to everyones questions. I know that when I purchase another set of irons in the future I will definitely be considering giving the boys at Scratch Golf my business. to be honest I like the way Ari makes himself available. You don't find this with all golf club makers. My main purpose in visiting all the different forums is to become as educated as I possibly can with the game I love. I appreciate all the contribution to this site by all involved.

 

Tim

[GolfSpy Dave]

All I know when I first posted this topic Ari has always been open and available for any questions I had for him personally. The same goes for Bill Holowaty over at Miura USA. I'm glad all this has been brought to a open forum where everyone has had the opportunity to ask any question they felt necessary to be answered. It's also refreshing to see an owner who's been posting to everyones questions. I know that when I purchase another set of irons in the future I will definitely be considering giving the boys at Scratch Golf my business. to be honest I like the way Ari makes himself available. You don't find this with all golf club makers. My main purpose in visiting all the different forums is to become as educated as I possibly can with the game I love. I appreciate all the contribution to this site by all involved.

 

Tim

Well said Tim, but you forgot one thing. You deserve a big thank you for bringing this issue forward and for all of your above the norm efforts.

Thank you

[TWShoot67]

Well said Tim, but you forgot one thing. You deserve a big thank you for bringing this issue forward and for all of your above the norm efforts.

Thank you

 

 

Thanks Sactown, I appreciate it. I just love this great game and equipment is one of the biggest parts of the game along with the rules, honor and integrity.

 

PS: I forgot one of the biggest parts of the game Friendships developed.

[Marlockey Golf]

I have become Good Friend's with Tim and can honestly say that he is a great guy and kudos to him for this Thread,

I was also a Dealer for Scratch Golf product in the UK and As a product rank it up there with the best, if not the best,

Ari is a Top Guy to deal with and considering he is a CEO Of a fast growing US Golf Equipment Company, He is allways available to talk to, Answer queries and his Input into all the Golf Forum's is second to none ( it's a wonder he get's any sleep)

I don't know this Chris guy from TSG, But he as obviously targeted the US Market with Japanese only product, selling Gold's factory putters at Scotty Circle T prices ( any Tour pro's using Gold's Factory)

I personally Know of a couple of European/Challenge Tour Player's using Scratch Wedges and they love them, they don't get paid to use them, That say's it all really.

Whilst Ari is Bringing much needed job's and Support to the US economy, I can't say that this Chris guy is doing the same, Well Done Ari and may your Success long continue, here's wishing Scratch Golf,Ryan and Christie all the very best for 2010.

[TWShoot67]

I have become Good Friend's with Tim and can honestly say that he is a great guy and kudos to him for this Thread,

I was also a Dealer for Scratch Golf product in the UK and As a product rank it up there with the best, if not the best,

Ari is a Top Guy to deal with and considering he is a CEO Of a fast growing US Golf Equipment Company, He is allways available to talk to, Answer queries and his Input into all the Golf Forum's is second to none ( it's a wonder he get's any sleep)

I don't know this Chris guy from TSG, But he as obviously targeted the US Market with Japanese only product, selling Gold's factory putters at Scotty Circle T prices ( any Tour pro's using Gold's Factory)

I personally Know of a couple of European/Challenge Tour Player's using Scratch Wedges and they love them, they don't get paid to use them, That say's it all really.

Whilst Ari is Bringing much needed job's and Support to the US economy, I can't say that this Chris guy is doing the same, Well Done Ari and may your Success long continue, here's wishing Scratch Golf,Ryan and Christie all the very best for 2010.

 

 

Thanks Mark for your kind words! We've been friends for a while now over the years on all the different forums and I value your friendship and your golf knowledge. Like I've said to everyone who's read this topic, all I was trying to do was find out why such claims were being made. As a good friend just pointed out to me and it makes all the sense in the world. Just think of this for a minute.....Do you really think Don White would sign on to do custom work with Scratch Golf if they were just trying to sell an inferior product as Chris from TSG seem to be trying to say? It just doesn't make sense. At least it doesn't make sense to me!

[Matt Saternus]

Thanks Mark for your kind words! We've been friends for a while now over the years on all the different forums and I value your friendship and your golf knowledge. Like I've said to everyone who's read this topic, all I was trying to do was find out why such claims were being made. As a good friend just pointed out to me and it makes all the sense in the world. Just think of this for a minute.....Do you really think Don White would sign on to do custom work with Scratch Golf if they were just trying to sell an inferior product as Chris from TSG seem to be trying to say? It just doesn't make sense. At least it doesn't make sense to me!

 

This is an excellent point, and I agree with the aforementioned point that it's refreshing to see a CEO who's out there answering questions from the people who buy his product. Furthering the "does this make sense?" argument, I just don't see why a company would focus on claims about using a specific metal, then use something else., particularly a smaller company like Scratch that hangs it hat on the quality of its product.

[TWShoot67]

This is an excellent point, and I agree with the aforementioned point that it's refreshing to see a CEO who's out there answering questions from the people who buy his product. Furthering the "does this make sense?" argument, I just don't see why a company would focus on claims about using a specific metal, then use something else., particularly a smaller company like Scratch that hangs it hat on the quality of its product.

 

 

My point exactly, what would Ari (Scratch) have to gain by using an inferior product as Chris wants people to believe? it doesn't fit. Just starting to sound more and more like sour grapes. I tried to invite Chris to post right here with all involved. I invited him as well as Bill from Miura and Bill wrote me via email. Chris never even acknowledged me he just called me a Fan Boy. I really thought that was funny as I've never played Scratch wedges or irons as of yet and never talked to Ari until this thread and this guys comeback was that I was a fan boy.

[Matt Saternus]

My point exactly, what would Ari (Scratch) have to gain by using an inferior product as Chris wants people to believe? it doesn't fit. Just starting to sound more and more like sour grapes. I tried to invite Chris to post right here when I posted on his blog only to have my post deleted when I went back the next day to see his response. That was the very next day after I found this blog.

 

This is extremely telling, to me. When you're trying to control what people say, you end up looking really bad, and it leads me to assume that you're trying to prevent people from finding out the truth. Ari, on the other hand, has been open to questions and is not trying to silence criticism, rather he's answering it with facts.

[GolfSpy Dave]

My point exactly, what would Ari (Scratch) have to gain by using an inferior product as Chris wants people to believe? it doesn't fit. Just starting to sound more and more like sour grapes. I tried to invite Chris to post right here when I posted on his blog only to have my post deleted when I went back the next day to see his response. That was the very next day after I found this blog.

That is weak. If he was so sure, he should have welcomed your comments. Nothing like a little revisionist history.

For me, at some point when my game matures, I can see buying a Scratch wedge or two, but I don't see myself ordering from TSG.

[Matt Saternus]

That is weak. If he was so sure, he should have welcomed your comments. Nothing like a little revisionist history.

For me, at some point when my game matures, I can see buying a Scratch wedge or two, but I don't see myself ordering from TSG.

 

Good point, this has definitely cost TSG a customer. Not that I was a big customer before, just the occasional headcover, but I did like going over there and looking around. After watching this play out, I will find more deserving companies to give my business to.

[NGage]

So....what's the consensus? This has been an interesting thread.

[NGage]

.......and for us consumers "caveat emptor" should be a never-ending mantra.

 

 

And there needs to be an internet version of that quote: "internet reader beware".

[GolfSpy Dave]

So....what's the consensus? This has been an interesting thread.

Nothing yet on an official level. If you read the comments here. it seems clear that many are on the side of scratch. However if you read the comments at TSG, they are very strongly along the "go get 'em" line of thought.

May need an arbitrator...

[Addicted2Golf]

I've been pre-occupied at work and I'm coming to this thread late, but here is my take.

 

Based on the raw data, I don't know who to believe. Both companies submitted samples to supposedly independent labs to be tested and got results that backed up their claims. There is an old saying that you can always make data say whatever you want and perhaps that applies here (at least in one instance). Honestly, the only way to truly conduct an independent test would be to randomly sample wedges that are available for sale or are in the hands of end consumers "in the wild" and perform the tests at a facility that does not have a relationship with either company. I'm sure if this gets into the hands of the lawyers then that is exactly what will occur and somebody will have their bluff called.

 

Until then, I will draw my conclusions based on the reputation of the companies and individuals involved. I don't know Ari personally, but I'm close enough to the golf industry as a blogger and I've logged enough hours on message boards like this one to know that Ari is a quality individual who goes out of his way to meet the needs of his customers. He spends a significant amount of time on forums like MGS answering questions and helping customers resolve issues. I don't know of any other CEO with a company of similar scale to Scratch in this industry that does that. To me, that speaks volumes in a situation like this one.

 

I also agree with some of the previous comments regarding the deleted post on the TSG forum. In my opinion, that is a red flag and speaks directly to the integrity of TourSpec. Why would they do that unless they had something to hide and didn't want to be challenged in that way?

 

So, I will side with Scratch and Miura on this one. And TSG has lost another potential customer. I guess I will need to find some other (more reputable) way to get my hands on those Rapture J-spec irons.

[Marlockey Golf]

I have allways found these guy's to be good and they will match any price on TSG

 

http://www.progolfjapan.com

 

but if you are looking for the best japanese Forged club's look no further than Scratch Golf

 

great deal's on the wedges at the moment, custom stamping, Custom finish, Custom ferrule, built to your spec's

 

the right grind's to get the best out of your wedge play, drop Ari an email and you won't regret it.

[GolfSpy_X]

You can also use this company as well to avoid dealing with TSG:

 

GDO GOLF SHOP

[NGage]

Thanks for all the info guys -- and your late take, A2G. Been interesting, for sure. As someone that's from TN originally, I've been keeping my eye on Scratch and hope they do well.

[Addicted2Golf]

I have allways found these guy's to be good and they will match any price on TSG

 

http://www.progolfjapan.com

 

but if you are looking for the best japanese Forged club's look no further than Scratch Golf

 

great deal's on the wedges at the moment, custom stamping, Custom finish, Custom ferrule, built to your spec's

 

the right grind's to get the best out of your wedge play, drop Ari an email and you won't regret it.

 

 

You can also use this company as well to avoid dealing with TSG:

 

GDO GOLF SHOP

 

Thanks guys! I will check them out. Good to know I have more options available. Rapture J's are not easy to find!

[jamo]

You can also use this company as well to avoid dealing with TSG:

 

GDO GOLF SHOP

 

That website has a lot of good clubs, R9 forged, Burner TP. Good find!

[GolfSpy Dave]

That website has a lot of good clubs, R9 forged, Burner TP. Good find!

Are you going by pictures or did I miss the translation link?

Maybe these links could be shared in other boards too. I only thought TSG was the way to get gear from japan...

[jamo]

Are you going by pictures or did I miss the translation link?

Maybe these links could be shared in other boards too. I only thought TSG was the way to get gear from japan...

 

A little thing popped up on my browser asking me if I wanted to translate it, so I clicked yes. FWIW I have Google Chrome.

[GolfSpy Dave]

A little thing popped up on my browser asking me if I wanted to translate it, so I clicked yes. FWIW I have Google Chrome.

Thanks Jamo, Safari was not so helpful

[GolfSpy_X]

You can use any browser and type the URL into Google and beside the result for that page it will ask you if you want to translate it as well.

[GolfSpy Dave]

You can use any browser and type the URL into Google and beside the result for that page it will ask you if you want to translate it as well.

Thanks MGS. There is some amazing stuff there. Smily face driver headcover is still $78 though.

 

[GolfSpy_X]

Glad you like the link. The guy behind TSG was simply a guy selling Japanese clubs on EBAY and found that he could make profit from it and started TSG. But their are plenty of shops in Japan that will ship to the US just like most online shops in the US that will ship outside the country.

 

Thanks MGS. There is some amazing stuff there. Smily face driver headcover is still $78 though.

 

[Macgregor]

I have a sour taste in my mouth after all of this. I hear words like 'almost the same as' or a 'blend of' and then, to make matters worse;

 

"As I mentioned above it is standard practice in the golf industry to use Asian steel and refer to it in marketing and elsewhere by an American steel name."

 

 

Just because everyone else does it, doesn't make it aright! A brand can be lost in an instant. If I pay for something, I don't to find out its almost what I paid for, or its a blend of things, and then to find out that I should actually be happy because its the same trick as everyone uses. I use the word trick advisably, buts its how I feel after reading this thread.

[jamo]

Just because everyone else does it, doesn't make it aright! A brand can be lost in an instant. If I pay for something, I don't to find out its almost what I paid for, or its a blend of things, and then to find out that I should actually be happy because its the same trick as everyone uses. I use the word trick advisably, buts its how I feel after reading this thread.

 

But if the club still works for you does it really matter? This has never happened to me, so I'm just a little curious.

[xxio]

I have seen Chris/TSG online ever since he was QualityDayDream on BSG selling Tourstage and JDM lower than what Bighitter was selling it for.It was that that got him kicked off BSG and him starting TSG, his own place to sell his JDM wares.

 

I have bought a few small items from him and they have always been good quality. Like I mentioned in the Japan equipment post. You will find them a lot cheaper when you walk in a store. TSG prices are all MSRP and maybe a bit more.

 

Over the years I learned a few things about QDD/TSG from people that I talked to that were also in the industry or just in and around golf in Asia. Not all of them are good. I am not here to bring up QDD/TSG's past especially since it would be "gossip".

 

I will post what I posted over at TSG when the whole "expose" started.

 

 

---------------------

 

 

First, Why the use of "we". You and...?

 

Secondly, if you did think that Scratch did not know they using open molds (maybe they were told by Ishihara-Shoten they were using originals?) and that they didn't know what was going on wouldn't it have been more prudent to have contacted Scratch first since you did have a previous connection. Maybe Scratch thought all Ishihara's were the same. It seems that they are dealing with the son? More than a few would have assumed that the son is part of the operation, the typical Japanese system of keeping everything in the family.

 

IIRC you had a similar experience where you felt you were being "fooled" by GD-USA a while back during the GT vs DW wars. It would have been ideal for someone to have reached out to you then, why not "give back" to the industry which has been kind to you and reach out to someone who may be undergoing the same experience.

 

By doing an "expose" without talking to Scratch (and Miura) first I see how people can take it to mean there is an ulterior motive when there maybe none.

 

For me the Miura issue (not doing their own forgings) is bigger than the Scratch 1018 issue because carbon contents can overlap even using correct tolerances.

 

 

-----------

 

Let me add that if Ari did intentionally deceive or is trying to cover something up after the fact then he deserves everything coming to him. If there is something wrong and he did not know, then he needs to do a better job on checking up on things.

[Addicted2Golf]

I have seen Chris/TSG online ever since he was QualityDayDream on BSG selling Tourstage and JDM lower than what Bighitter was selling it for.It was that that got him kicked off BSG and him starting TSG, his own place to sell his JDM wares.

 

I have bought a few small items from him and they have always been good quality. Like I mentioned in the Japan equipment post. You will find them a lot cheaper when you walk in a store. TSG prices are all MSRP and maybe a bit more.

 

Over the years I learned a few things about QDD/TSG from people that I talked to that were also in the industry or just in and around golf in Asia. Not all of them are good. I am not here to bring up QDD/TSG's past especially since it would be "gossip".

 

I will post what I posted over at TSG when the whole "expose" started.

 

 

---------------------

 

 

First, Why the use of "we". You and...?

 

Secondly, if you did think that Scratch did not know they using open molds (maybe they were told by Ishihara-Shoten they were using originals?) and that they didn't know what was going on wouldn't it have been more prudent to have contacted Scratch first since you did have a previous connection. Maybe Scratch thought all Ishihara's were the same. It seems that they are dealing with the son? More than a few would have assumed that the son is part of the operation, the typical Japanese system of keeping everything in the family.

 

IIRC you had a similar experience where you felt you were being "fooled" by GD-USA a while back during the GT vs DW wars. It would have been ideal for someone to have reached out to you then, why not "give back" to the industry which has been kind to you and reach out to someone who may be undergoing the same experience.

 

By doing an "expose" without talking to Scratch (and Miura) first I see how people can take it to mean there is an ulterior motive when there maybe none.

 

For me the Miura issue (not doing their own forgings) is bigger than the Scratch 1018 issue because carbon contents can overlap even using correct tolerances.

 

 

-----------

 

Let me add that if Ari did intentionally deceive or is trying to cover something up after the fact then he deserves everything coming to him. If there is something wrong and he did not know, then he needs to do a better job on checking up on things.

 

What was the reaction on the TSG board when you posted this? Did Chris respond?

[xxio]

Yes. There was a civil exchange. He addressed it without really addressing it? It is still there if you want to take a look.

 

I will add in terms of information about JDM (Scratch not being JDM in my book), 90% of what Chris says is true. He has Gocchin to thank for that. The quality of equipment information and presentation has exploded ever since he got him on board 3(?) years ago. Tario(?)/Gocchin is a wealth of information and translation. I get a few and I can say Japanese golf magazines test everything. The magazines have information that sometimes is overload and useless to a certain point.