Scratch Golf Controversy

[Addicted2Golf]

Yes. There was a civil exchange. He addressed it without really addressing it? It is still there if you want to take a look.

 

I will add in terms of information about JDM (Scratch not being JDM in my book), 90% of what Chris says is true. He has Gocchin to thank for that. The quality of equipment information and presentation has exploded ever since he got him on board 3(?) years ago. Tario(?)/Gocchin is a wealth of information and translation. I get a few and I can say Japanese golf magazines test everything. The magazines have information that sometimes is overload and useless to a certain point.

 

Sorry xxio, forgive me for asking this question. My knowledge of the Japanese market is limited. What is Gocchin?

[Macgregor]

But if the club still works for you does it really matter? This has never happened to me, so I'm just a little curious.

 

Yes it matters if the club in question is at a premium price. Its not good enough to say if it works does it matter.

 

I agree with the previous poster, the Muira forging issue is a bigger thing for me. I get the 'when is 1018 not really 1018' argument, and its a bit boring to be frank, its a technical point, US versus China versus Japan blah blah, blends and almost the same as etc etc. The marketing boys have had some fun with it and now they have been called out, I'm sure it won't really do any harm to them above and beyond people like me having this sour taste in the mouths for a while, then it will be forgotten. But the Muira forging or not forging will rumble on I suspect.

[xxio]

Sorry xxio, forgive me for asking this question. My knowledge of the Japanese market is limited. What is Gocchin?

 

 

Gocchin is an administrator over at TSG. He provides a lot of information. he seems to be a very well informed and very nice individual.

[Shambles]

Yes it matters if the club in question is at a premium price. Its not good enough to say if it works does it matter.

 

I agree with the previous poster, the Muira forging issue is a bigger thing for me. I get the 'when is 1018 not really 1018' argument, and its a bit boring to be frank, its a technical point, US versus China versus Japan blah blah, blends and almost the same as etc etc. The marketing boys have had some fun with it and now they have been called out, I'm sure it won't really do any harm to them above and beyond people like me having this sour taste in the mouths for a while, then it will be forgotten. But the Muira forging or not forging will rumble on I suspect.

 

I think you're missing an important thing. There was a pretty good reason why truth in advertising became the subject of a law in the States.

 

 

 

Shambles

[xxio]

I have asked but have not been answered anywhere. What are the tolerances for carbon content?

The Epon AF Tours came out 18% on the test yet were classified as 1020.

[MBS]

There are other properties of composition to consider but strictly speaking for carbon content in AISI 1018 steel it is 0.15%-0.20%. I'm sure it can be held to tighter specifications if needed, but I'm sure in the application of making golf clubs it might increase the cost a bit.

[xxio]

There are other properties of composition to consider but strictly speaking for carbon content in AISI 1018 steel it is 0.15%-0.20%. I'm sure it can be held to tighter specifications if needed, but I'm sure in the application of making golf clubs it might increase the cost a bit.

 

So basically around a +/- 3% range for golf clubs? Is that a wide tolerance for the steel industry in general or standard for similar applications.

 

Thank you.

[mainuh]

... I tried to invite Chris to post right here with all involved. I invited him as well as Bill from Miura and Bill wrote me via email. Chris never even acknowledged me he just called me a Fan Boy.

 

Tells you all you need to know about Chris at the end of the day -

Its easy to hide behind a keyboard and sling crap against the wall - a lot more difficult to actually come forward and address pont by point accusations made.

 

rob

[Jballmn]

Tells you all you need to know about Chris at the end of the day -

Its easy to hide behind a keyboard and sling crap against the wall - a lot more difficult to actually come forward and address pont by point accusations made.

 

 

+1. Agreed Rob

[TWShoot67]

Tells you all you need to know about Chris at the end of the day -

Its easy to hide behind a keyboard and sling crap against the wall - a lot more difficult to actually come forward and address pont by point accusations made.

 

rob

 

 

+1. Agreed Rob

 

 

Exactly, Chris could have easy enough responded here and maybe there could have been a civil discussion. As far as Miura goes I haven't heard anything definitive as to what they have decided to do? But I guess if there's ever going to be a lawsuit it will become public knowledge. I honestly feel it wasn't about Chris trying to educate anyone but more about a grudge he has towards his competitors, one in which he had a working relationship. So that's why I get the feeling that it's more personal then trying to educate the public! I guess we all have opinions.

 

Tim

[Addicted2Golf]

I honestly feel it wasn't about Chris trying to educate anyone but more about a grudge he has towards his competitors, one in which he had a working relationship. So that's why I get the feeling that it's more personal then trying to educate the public! I guess we all have opinions.

 

Tim

 

That's the weird thing though. Are those companies really his competitors? Its generally not a good idea to piss off OEM's when you're a reseller. Trying to figure out what he has to gain in all this....

[GolfSpy_X]

He is coming out with his own wedge soon...hmmm.

 

 

That's the weird thing though. Are those companies really his competitors? Its generally not a good idea to piss off OEM's when you're a reseller. Trying to figure out what he has to gain in all this....

[Addicted2Golf]

He is coming out with his own wedge soon...hmmm.

 

Ahhh... ok, then. That explains a lot. Especially the Scratch bit. Thanks for that insight.

[GolfSpy_X]

In many peoples eyes in the business he did the same thing to Gauge Design US. He basically created a rumor that destroyed what they had built for years. Dave Whitlam who designs for Gauge in the US makes a nice putter but his name was tarnished simply because of a rumor that created a bad taste in many consumers mouth even know there was little to no truth behind the rumors.

 

It is a shame really.

 

Ahhh... ok, then. That explains a lot. Especially the Scratch bit. Thanks for that insight.

[TWShoot67]

He is coming out with his own wedge soon...hmmm.

 

Damn that really puts a whole new spin on Chris's blog. When is his New Wedges supposed to hit the market? Are we talking soon? Because if that's happening soon, you would really have to question the whole point of him doing all this independent testing so he can slant sales in his direction. Now I don't know when he plans on this release, as this is the first I heard this one. This just makes Chris look worse in my eyes. If this was his master plan to belittle other OEM's just to make his product look better. WOW! Especially in light of the David Whitlam (Gauge Design USA) story. I'm sure this happens in many industries where one company says things about another, but I just thought Golf would be one business there would be a higher standard of ethics. Maybe it's just wishful thinking on my part!

 

Tim

[xxio]

That's the weird thing though. Are those companies really his competitors? Its generally not a good idea to piss off OEM's when you're a reseller. Trying to figure out what he has to gain in all this....

 

 

I heard that TSG was nothing really more than a buying service in it's early years. When you would order that is when they check their list of stores to check if they have it. Does anyone know if that has changed?

 

I know they are authorized distributors of Epon, they used to have the NA territory then the problem with direct selling by a distributor vs the retailers/fitters. The Epon thrust has always been fitted clubs so they want to have a retail-fitting system. They were indicated as an online store for awhile but the Epon site has been down for a month now so I can't check what the status of TSG with Epon is aside from being the NA distributor.

 

Again I said in the end Chris may have nothing to gain. He could be just giving info. It is the manner and his checkered past that is leading people to question the "expose".

 

I hope Miura speaks out soon. I do have a feeling the foundry itself Miura uses is not really theirs but that they control the process (spin welding), use their employees, and the quality control. I guess sort of like leasing equipment/time/space....a 60% truth? Questions will then pop up like..... are Miuras the only golf clubs made at that foundry? Who is in charge of purchasing the raw materials and does the spot checking during the process..blurring the line between a sub-contractor and an employee.

[xxio]

I just thought Golf would be one business there would be a higher standard of ethics. Maybe it's just wishful thinking on my part!

 

Tim

 

I did mention to Chris the "gentleman's" part of this game when I posted on TSG about talking to Ari first.

[NGage]

All this goes to show a big part of why I don't like to do too much internet business. I prefer face-to-face, as to get a better measure of the man.

[TWShoot67]

I did mention to Chris the "gentleman's" part of this game when I posted on TSG about talking to Ari first.

 

Yes I read your post on his blog. As like when I first posted on his site about the accusations brought on both Scratch and Miura by Chris. I asked him to post here and all parties could be involved that I would talk with Colt and see if we could set something up. The n i sent ans email to Ari and then one to Bill at Miura as well. That's when this whole thing got started. I went back to Chris's blog and couldn't find my post anywhere. So I don't know what happened as by then it was like the 3rd 4th day of this thread. I sent emails/PM's to everyone involved only Ari and Bill responded. Chris's way of recognizing me was to call me a Scratch fan boy. Like I said in very beginning I wanted to get to the bottom of his accusations about Scratch's wedges and Miura not forging irons. It's funny how the Miura not forging irons thing just completely dropped from his discussion. He just focused on bashing Ari and Scratch. that's why I have my feelings on this the way I do. I believe Ari and Bill. I just a golf fan have no interest in any OEM. I happen to be playing what's in my signature now. That can change at any time, as i just play what I like and what I feel is the best. I've played plenty of Miura irons and plenty of Endo irons. I've never played Scratch but the more I read, the more they peak my interest! I've been close to purchasing Scratch wedges many times but my success with Titleist wedges it's just been hard to de-bag them. Sorry for getting a little off topic, but I just want to prove I'm not swayed by any OEM and the proof is in my bag. It's not like I'm backing Ari because I play Scratch clubs. I've never even tried them yet. I agree with you Chris could have handled this much better!

[xxio]

I wonder why the deletion of your post yet mine was still there the last time I checked. Is it too much to ask to have you repeat what you posted over here?

 

The golf world is quite small at the niche-premium level. Word gets around about reputation and past dealings pretty quick. Like my dad always says you meet the same people on the way down as you did on the way up, so treat everyone with respect......I wonder where bighitter is nowadays

[Shambles]

Damn that really puts a whole new spin on Chris's blog. When is his New Wedges supposed to hit the market? Are we talking soon? Because if that's happening soon, you would really have to question the whole point of him doing all this independent testing so he can slant sales in his direction. Now I don't know when he plans on this release, as this is the first I heard this one. This just makes Chris look worse in my eyes. If this was his master plan to belittle other OEM's just to make his product look better. WOW! Especially in light of the David Whitlam (Gauge Design USA) story. I'm sure this happens in many industries where one company says things about another, but I just thought Golf would be one business there would be a higher standard of ethics. Maybe it's just wishful thinking on my part!

 

Tim

 

To my mind there won't be any boutique Japanese club makers benefitting from this discussion. Open designs from open molds and migrating grinders does not speak well of any companies who sell such. They come off as component assemblers who branded a common product that's been adjusted a bit for individuality and sell at a high price.

 

 

Shambles

[xxio]

It is surprising how many JDM boutique companies have designs that are based on open molds. They just redesign the cavity a bit, or widen the sole, or make the muscle shape a little different. I would think that it changes the design enough. I know that if you made the sole wider on my Fourteen TC550s it would make them play like a totally different iron. (adding-I'm not saying the TC550s are an open model, just using something I play as an example).

 

The Himeji region keeps churning out product. Very good quality product. The boutique JDMs don't have the R&D finances to splurge on a design from the ground up.

 

By the way what Dave said is true. QualityDayDream has a lot of history on a lot boards.

[Dave]

Tells you all you need to know about Chris at the end of the day -

Its easy to hide behind a keyboard and sling crap against the wall - a lot more difficult to actually come forward and address pont by point accusations made.

 

rob

 

Let's face it, if you've been around the boards long enough you hear enough about Chris to know to doubt everything he's about.

[intothegrain]

All this goes to show a big part of why I don't like to do too much internet business. I prefer face-to-face, as to get a better measure of the man.

 

To your point - I recently visited Scratch Golf's Tour Department in Chattanooga TN and met Patrick Boyd, Scratch Golf's VP of Custom Sales and Director of Tour Department Operations. Basically he is in charge of making Scratch Golf's professional staff, touring pros and custom order customers happy. He took time out of his day to give me a tour of the facility, where they turn out about 8 clubs per day, all hand made. The addition of Don White, a hall of fame clubmaker, adds to their already legendary ability to combine modern design and fitting techniques with classic materials and workmanship to create very high performance golf clubs.

 

The fact that many touring professionals choose Scratch clubs without being paid to play them is one thing, but combine that with the fact that any hack off the street can get the same treatment as a touring pro makes them a winner in my book.

 

After the tour of the workshop, Patrick took me to the local golf course and performed a fitting for wedges with me. I hit wedges with a variety of grinds and materials, and after moving to the chipping green we found a wedge grind and loft options that work for me. Once I found the best grind, i was able to hit every shot around the greens from just about any lie. Needless to say. I can't wait to get my hands on a custom made wedge from Scratch.

 

I am a +2 handicap and play tournament golf in Florida at the state level. The bottom line for me in a wedge is performance and feel. I don't care if these wedges are made of 1018, 1010, 1025 or 8620 for that matter. If I can score with them, they are going in my bag.

 

I've played Cleveland and Titleist Vokey wedges for years. These are all cast BTW. Most people have been taught to desire a forged club, but just because it's forged doesn't make it better. Scratch's milled 8620 wedges are just as good as their 1018 wedges for most people. Only the most accomplished players using softer golf balls will really be able to tell the difference between the two materials in my opinion.

 

In regards to the debate between Scratch, Miura and TSG, I would have to side with the manufacturers in this case. For one I don't see how misleading customers in the internet era could be of any benefit for either company. Chris may have an agenda or motivation to make his case, or perhaps he's simply misinformed. Either way I call it how I see it, and having seen the attention to detail that Scratch puts into making it's wedges first hand, I can tell you that you will never go wrong with any product they have to offer.

[GolfSpy Dave]

Thanks for the insight into Scratch. 8 clubs a day really says something about the size of their operation.

Excellent addition to this thread and hopefully the wedges perform as well for you as it sounds like they will.

[Addicted2Golf]

To your point - I recently visited Scratch Golf's Tour Department in Chattanooga TN and met Patrick Boyd, Scratch Golf's VP of Custom Sales and Director of Tour Department Operations. Basically he is in charge of making Scratch Golf's professional staff, touring pros and custom order customers happy. He took time out of his day to give me a tour of the facility, where they turn out about 8 clubs per day, all hand made. The addition of Don White, a hall of fame clubmaker, adds to their already legendary ability to combine modern design and fitting techniques with classic materials and workmanship to create very high performance golf clubs.

 

The fact that many touring professionals choose Scratch clubs without being paid to play them is one thing, but combine that with the fact that any hack off the street can get the same treatment as a touring pro makes them a winner in my book.

 

After the tour of the workshop, Patrick took me to the local golf course and performed a fitting for wedges with me. I hit wedges with a variety of grinds and materials, and after moving to the chipping green we found a wedge grind and loft options that work for me. Once I found the best grind, i was able to hit every shot around the greens from just about any lie. Needless to say. I can't wait to get my hands on a custom made wedge from Scratch.

 

I am a +2 handicap and play tournament golf in Florida at the state level. The bottom line for me in a wedge is performance and feel. I don't care if these wedges are made of 1018, 1010, 1025 or 8620 for that matter. If I can score with them, they are going in my bag.

 

I've played Cleveland and Titleist Vokey wedges for years. These are all cast BTW. Most people have been taught to desire a forged club, but just because it's forged doesn't make it better. Scratch's milled 8620 wedges are just as good as their 1018 wedges for most people. Only the most accomplished players using softer golf balls will really be able to tell the difference between the two materials in my opinion.

 

In regards to the debate between Scratch, Miura and TSG, I would have to side with the manufacturers in this case. For one I don't see how misleading customers in the internet era could be of any benefit for either company. Chris may have an agenda or motivation to make his case, or perhaps he's simply misinformed. Either way I call it how I see it, and having seen the attention to detail that Scratch puts into making it's wedges first hand, I can tell you that you will never go wrong with any product they have to offer.

 

Nicely done John (as usual). And welcome - good to see you on here.

[jamo]

Great post intothegrain, thanks for the look into Scratch. I am one of those people you mentioned who don't really care that my wedges are cast or forged. I have a forged wedge and it isn't worth it because it has worn way to fast.

[NGage]

To your point - I recently visited Scratch Golf's Tour Department in Chattanooga TN and met Patrick Boyd, Scratch Golf's VP of Custom Sales and Director of Tour Department Operations. Basically he is in charge of making Scratch Golf's professional staff, touring pros and custom order customers happy. He took time out of his day to give me a tour of the facility, where they turn out about 8 clubs per day, all hand made. The addition of Don White, a hall of fame clubmaker, adds to their already legendary ability to combine modern design and fitting techniques with classic materials and workmanship to create very high performance golf clubs.

 

The fact that many touring professionals choose Scratch clubs without being paid to play them is one thing, but combine that with the fact that any hack off the street can get the same treatment as a touring pro makes them a winner in my book.

 

After the tour of the workshop, Patrick took me to the local golf course and performed a fitting for wedges with me. I hit wedges with a variety of grinds and materials, and after moving to the chipping green we found a wedge grind and loft options that work for me. Once I found the best grind, i was able to hit every shot around the greens from just about any lie. Needless to say. I can't wait to get my hands on a custom made wedge from Scratch.

 

I am a +2 handicap and play tournament golf in Florida at the state level. The bottom line for me in a wedge is performance and feel. I don't care if these wedges are made of 1018, 1010, 1025 or 8620 for that matter. If I can score with them, they are going in my bag.

 

I've played Cleveland and Titleist Vokey wedges for years. These are all cast BTW. Most people have been taught to desire a forged club, but just because it's forged doesn't make it better. Scratch's milled 8620 wedges are just as good as their 1018 wedges for most people. Only the most accomplished players using softer golf balls will really be able to tell the difference between the two materials in my opinion.

 

In regards to the debate between Scratch, Miura and TSG, I would have to side with the manufacturers in this case. For one I don't see how misleading customers in the internet era could be of any benefit for either company. Chris may have an agenda or motivation to make his case, or perhaps he's simply misinformed. Either way I call it how I see it, and having seen the attention to detail that Scratch puts into making it's wedges first hand, I can tell you that you will never go wrong with any product they have to offer.

 

Sounds like a good day.

 

Hmmm...wonder if he's a Vol?

[Addicted2Golf]

BTW, I bet if you lined up 10 players who game Vokeys, at least half would swear that their wedges are forged and not cast.

[Matt Saternus]

Thanks for the info, intothegrain, and welcome to the board. The thing that really stands out to me is 8 clubs per day. I can't imagine the kind of care that goes into spending 1/8 of a workday on 1 club. Buying a club like that...that's getting your money's worth.