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Scratch Golf Controversy


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I will cut to the chase. It seems like the tourspec guy is a liar. I hope they kick the s*** out of him in court. I have no product from either company, but this is just wrong. As a scientist, I ALWAYS have to back up my words with data. This kind of blatant libel is just gross. DIAF!

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Funny I just talked with Ari again and I already sent off a copy of this to Bill at Miura so to get a response and to let him know whats being printed about Mr. Miura. It's crazy that someone would tr

Funny I had to look that one up myself.... and I'm still not sure why he brought up the Dashanzi International Art Festival?

Rather disappointing that some of my posts on this topic were deleted. I would appreciate an explanation from the administrators as to why those posts were deleted.       Shambles

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People always threaten law suits in forums. But if Scratch and Miura are right in this arena, I think this is the first legitimate one I have seen so far. Scratch built it's business in the forums and it remains a major part (I assume) of their following.

 

 

I agree this seems like a sure thing for Scratch and Miura. I will be waiting for follow up emails from Bill and as you can all see Ari is here posting to all, like an open book!

 

Tim

The Bag:

Right handed

Cobra King FLYZ+ 10.5* w/ Aldila Rogue 125 R 44.5"

Tour Issued TM M2 10.5 w/ Mitsubishi Tensi CK Pro Blue 60S

Tour Issued TM M2 15* w/ GD Tour AD 7S 43"

TM R7 17.5 HFS w/ Tour AD 7S Stiff 42"

Cobra S3 Pro's 4-pw w/ Aldila RIP Tours SLT 115 Reg. 5i 38.5"

Titleist Vokey Proto's

52*,54*,58* all TTDG S-400

TM TP5 X

Scotty Cameron SSS Tiffany 009 350 34.5" or Bettinardi BB1 DASS Proto

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UPDATE from the article/ blog: Chris must be visiting the site as a spy? lol

 

 

1018 Controversy Update: Scratch Responds!

Posted: 06 Mar 2010 01:34 AM PST

The controvery continues and for those who know me I welcome this sort of debate. I first want to say this is nothing personal against Scratch Golf or Ari Techner. As a person Ari is a wonderful guy, very positive and helpful to all that encouter him. Nothing personal Ari and you're welcome to come in here and debate this with us or on the TSG forum. Our members are NOT the fanboy type that will back me up wrong or right. We have a mature crowd that is of a different demographic than other golf websites.

 

Some are asking what are my credentials? Without tooting my own horn to much I will simply say I have been deep involved in the Japanese golf industry for about 8 years. I've lived in Japan and travel there at least 3 times a year. For those who doubt, please find another person who has been inside the Endo factory multiple times, been inside Miura and just about every grind house and foundry from Osaka to Ichikawa cho and Himeji. I'm able to pick up the phone or make contact with Japanese engineers who run the forging presses, grind the golf clubs, and produce the CAD. The contacts go up to some of the executives on personal level. Outside of Japan, I have been inside Taiwan & Chinese factories some of the biggest.

 

Last thing I will say is since TSG started 8 years ago the amount of revenue added to the Japan Golf Indusry, not only our TSG sales, but sales of importers from Korea, China, S.E Asia, Middle East and other countries is estimated at over a half billion U.S dollars. I wish even a fraction of that was our sales, but it was our global marketing and the exposure to other countries that created the market and demand for these clubs. That is where the leverage and connections began.

 

Ari had a response to my last write up in another golf forum: Click "Read More" to check it out....

 

 

Ari Wrote:

 

That entire writeup is completely untrue. We used to work with Chris from Tour Spec Golf but stopped after he told me over and over again that he only cared about making sales and how much money he was making from a product and kept trying to get me to give him better margins so he "could" promote us more. He says what he thinks will help him sell the products that he is selling and has told me that specifically more than once.

 

We pay extra for our forgings that are made from 1018 carbon steel compared to what we would pay for 1025 or something harder. We even have higher minimums because we use an extra forging step. We use 1018 carbon steel because in our testing most players preferred the feel of it compared to the other metals that we tested. This specifically has helped us land Tour players Ryan Moore and Cristie Kerr who both cite feel as the main reason they play our clubs. I have been to the foundry in Japan many times and watched the whole process. The only Scratch clubs that are made in China are our 8620 wedges which are cast from 8620 "carbon" steel.

 

Ari Techner

President/CEO

Scratch Golf Clubs

ari_techner@scratchgolf.com

Ok so Ari has been in the foundry that produces his forged clubs. This is true. It was several of years ago and I know this because I saw the factory rep at the golf show and they said that we just missed them. In Ari's respone he does nothing to debate the specifics of my statements. He simply says that the only clubs that are made in China are 8620 wedges...

 

If he read our article, which I know he has several times, he would see that I don't claim they make their so-called 1018 heads in China. I actually saw their heads being produced in Japan! What I am disputing is that it's not made of 1018 because I think it's made of 1025 or S25C. The factories that produce his product doesn't offer 1018 they use S25C JIS. There is no JIS 1018, so if he wants to continue to say he is using an acceptable quality of 1018 its not true. Scratch used 1018 as a marketing angle from the start. Maybe they didn't know that 1018 is a not a good material to use for golf clubs, but in reality I am saying they use JIS S25C and that is a much better material than 1018. From a metallurgy stand point i just talked their product up, but from a marketing stand point they have been exposed.

 

I have confirmation from multiple reputable sources even at the materials supply level. If he wants to stand by his claims of using 1018, he will have to admit of using a very poor quality material for golf clubs.

 

Let's look at this a different way. Ari says they have higher minimums due to the extra forging step. May I ask what exactly is this extra step so that I can research and confirm it with our contacts in Japan? Scratch Golf claimed to have 1018 7 years ago when they were unknown and didn't have minimums. Another way to look at this is why haven't any other Japanese golf companies adopted1018 and this so called extra forging step? Why has Scratch claimed "Ishihara Forged" when Mr. Ishihara never had a forging press. Mr. Ishihara worked from a garage workshop with his family before passing away. In fact after Mr. Ishihara died Scratch continued with Ishihara forged. There is proof of that all over the web. Did Scratch not know or were they misleading the public? Why were we told that the TSG wedge was 1018 Ishihara forged when it was produced of S25C at Kyoei?

 

Here is my opinion in a nutshell:

- They use S25C for their 1018 wedges (my opinion: based on the fact that there is no 1018 forged in Japan.)

- Ishihara was not a foundry, yet Scratch stated otherwise countless times (fact)

- They lied about our TSG wedge being 1018 Ishihara forged (fact)

 

In regards to his comments about me only caring about sales, that is a lie. I will tell you the truth! Scratch has Great Margins! The brands we offer currently have much worse margins. When a product is open model meaning not an original design and they simply stamp their logo on it, the profit margin for scratch is significantly better vs brands who invest in R&D and produce molds that cost at least 8 million yen ( 80,000 USD ) per iron set and requiring 2000+ set's to sell to break even. If you need proof of that simply look at the same head as the AR-1 offered by Geotech at less than half the price. All of their heads have been used in Japan for almost 10 years and are always near half the price that scratch sells them for. So yes Scratch has great margins!

 

Those who know me understand that I am critical on quality from autos to food to golf clubs and I have even cut brands from our line up because of this. That's the reason why we had problems promoting Scratch due to quality issues. This has changed, I will be the first to admit that the product is on par now with others, but 5 years ago this was not the case. This has been the situation with many brands. For example it happend with Yururi. We removed the line, they fixed the product, we added it back. Same with George Spirits we had QC issues they fixed it and we plan on brining it back. Sky Dream Jump is fixing the issues as well so we can move forward to promote the brand with confidence. When you spend $200 bucks on a wedge it sure as hell be better made than the $99.00 wedge in your local proshop especially if TSG is going to stand behind it.

 

So in the end let's stick to facts that can be backed up or this will simply go on and on. Ari submit me a materials certificate from the factory that produces your heads and I will confrim it. But outside of that we know you were not truthful about Ishihara forged & telling us our TSG wedge was made of 1018.

 

Anyhow We are submitting samples to the METL (Metals Engineering and Testing Laboratory in Phoenix) to get to the bottom of this. Not only Scratch golf clubs but metal heads from about ten different brands and we will be more than happy to apologize and report all findings if we are incorrect.

Well I just got this in my email so I figured I'd post this. I posted in his blog last night and asked to back this accusation with facts and what Chris's credentials are, but now I can't find that post. As for being a fan boy I'm just a fan of INTEGRITY and HONESTY. I have to get some sleep. I'll be back tomorrow to see if there's any more updates. one thing I noticed Chris didn't mention anything about the other company MIURA but I'm sure that's because he didn't see the response by Bill Holowaty. But I'm sure Chris will respond to that tomorrow after he reads the email post from Bill. So why not just join the forum and we can have everyone posting live. I just believe you shouldn't write something until all facts are proven. Now Chris say's opinion's. I'll let Ari address this as I know once he reads this he will.

 

Good Night my eye are getting crossed :blink:

 

Tim

The Bag:

Right handed

Cobra King FLYZ+ 10.5* w/ Aldila Rogue 125 R 44.5"

Tour Issued TM M2 10.5 w/ Mitsubishi Tensi CK Pro Blue 60S

Tour Issued TM M2 15* w/ GD Tour AD 7S 43"

TM R7 17.5 HFS w/ Tour AD 7S Stiff 42"

Cobra S3 Pro's 4-pw w/ Aldila RIP Tours SLT 115 Reg. 5i 38.5"

Titleist Vokey Proto's

52*,54*,58* all TTDG S-400

TM TP5 X

Scotty Cameron SSS Tiffany 009 350 34.5" or Bettinardi BB1 DASS Proto

GHIN # 5144472

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I'm a little late to this party, but I've just read through all the posts and links. First, thanks to Tim for pursuing this so vigorously. This is exactly what golf forums should be about: consumers getting the facts about their equipment. Second, a thumbs up to Ari & Scratch and Miura for getting in here and answering the questions that their consumers have. When I read the initial accusations, I was suspicious of them because I've "talked" with Ari a few times and he has always struck me as a very classy, honest guy. As I read more and more, it seems that I was correct to be suspicious. I hope that the truth continues to come out and that there is a definite conclusion that will benefit those who have been honest from the start.

Follow me on Twitter: @MattSaternus

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I will cut to the chase. It seems like the tourspec guy is a liar. I hope they kick the s*** out of him in court. I have no product from either company, but this is just wrong. As a scientist, I ALWAYS have to back up my words with data. This kind of blatant libel is just gross. DIAF!

After reading the response from TSG, I would like to retract the DIAF part of the above statement. Testing the heads via independent metallurgist is an excellent response. Good science.

 

This could easily snowball well beyond the MGS forums.

 

I do reserve the right to reinsert DIAF in total internet tough guy fashion at a future date.

Volvo Intorqueo

 

All the cool kids follow me on twitter: @golfspy_dave

 

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DIAF? Man, way too many acronyms. Thank goodness that google has all the answers.

Funny I had to look that one up myself.... and I'm still not sure why he brought up the Dashanzi International Art Festival?

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The Bag:

Right handed

Cobra King FLYZ+ 10.5* w/ Aldila Rogue 125 R 44.5"

Tour Issued TM M2 10.5 w/ Mitsubishi Tensi CK Pro Blue 60S

Tour Issued TM M2 15* w/ GD Tour AD 7S 43"

TM R7 17.5 HFS w/ Tour AD 7S Stiff 42"

Cobra S3 Pro's 4-pw w/ Aldila RIP Tours SLT 115 Reg. 5i 38.5"

Titleist Vokey Proto's

52*,54*,58* all TTDG S-400

TM TP5 X

Scotty Cameron SSS Tiffany 009 350 34.5" or Bettinardi BB1 DASS Proto

GHIN # 5144472

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Funny I had to look that one up myself.... and I'm still not sure why he brought up the Dashanzi International Art Festival?

Are you kidding, the etchings and the forgings alone make the trip to Dashanzi worth while. The interpretative dance of Dogs Playing Pool was amazing. ;)

Volvo Intorqueo

 

All the cool kids follow me on twitter: @golfspy_dave

 

If you are not a cool kid, following me on twitter will make you cool...

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Wait, so it's not Deutsches Institut für Animationsfilm eV? Stupid free dictionary...

 

Also, what/who is TSG? So confusing!

 

 

TSG= Tour Spec Golf

The Bag:

Right handed

Cobra King FLYZ+ 10.5* w/ Aldila Rogue 125 R 44.5"

Tour Issued TM M2 10.5 w/ Mitsubishi Tensi CK Pro Blue 60S

Tour Issued TM M2 15* w/ GD Tour AD 7S 43"

TM R7 17.5 HFS w/ Tour AD 7S Stiff 42"

Cobra S3 Pro's 4-pw w/ Aldila RIP Tours SLT 115 Reg. 5i 38.5"

Titleist Vokey Proto's

52*,54*,58* all TTDG S-400

TM TP5 X

Scotty Cameron SSS Tiffany 009 350 34.5" or Bettinardi BB1 DASS Proto

GHIN # 5144472

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2 reasons this has slowed down:

 

1) It's Sunday and everyone wanted a drama free day.

 

2) They were scared off by your internet tough guy DIAF routine.

 

That's right! TOUGH GUY!!!!

 

Maybe tomorrow there will be more... How long does metal testing take?

Volvo Intorqueo

 

All the cool kids follow me on twitter: @golfspy_dave

 

If you are not a cool kid, following me on twitter will make you cool...

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As soon as i get any more replies you guys will be first to know. I've been waiting for a reply from Ari since the last post by Chris on his website. But it is Sunday and these guys need a day off too.... LOL

The Bag:

Right handed

Cobra King FLYZ+ 10.5* w/ Aldila Rogue 125 R 44.5"

Tour Issued TM M2 10.5 w/ Mitsubishi Tensi CK Pro Blue 60S

Tour Issued TM M2 15* w/ GD Tour AD 7S 43"

TM R7 17.5 HFS w/ Tour AD 7S Stiff 42"

Cobra S3 Pro's 4-pw w/ Aldila RIP Tours SLT 115 Reg. 5i 38.5"

Titleist Vokey Proto's

52*,54*,58* all TTDG S-400

TM TP5 X

Scotty Cameron SSS Tiffany 009 350 34.5" or Bettinardi BB1 DASS Proto

GHIN # 5144472

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Scratch and Miura have not responded directly to the questions. They have threatened law suits and accused TSG of dishonesty and ulterior motives but have not stated categorically that they are using JIS 1018 steel, denied that they are using open designs or that they forge their own, other than in long standing advertisements. They have not even provided the certificate of materials requested.

 

 

Shambles

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Scratch and Miura have not responded directly to the questions. They have threatened law suits and accused TSG of dishonesty and ulterior motives but have not stated categorically that they are using JIS 1018 steel, denied that they are using open designs or that they forge their own, other than in long standing advertisements. They have not even provided the certificate of materials requested.

 

 

Shambles

Did the pdf in post #39 show this information? I can't open it...

Volvo Intorqueo

 

All the cool kids follow me on twitter: @golfspy_dave

 

If you are not a cool kid, following me on twitter will make you cool...

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Did the pdf in post #39 show this information? I can't open it...

 

I haven't been able to open it either as I'm still reinstalling my software. However it was mentioned in other DB's as something other than a materials certificate which, I think, would be an official testament from the company as to the materials they make their product with. A PDF reasder is a relatively easy find and I'll try to find the time to install it today or tonight if I finish installing my new hard disk.

 

I believe TSG is submitting samples to an independent lab in the States so given time we shall have a more definnitive answer than the he said she said merry go round we are currently on.

 

 

Shambles

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