Scratch Golf Controversy

[GolfSpy Dave]

Thanks Moe. Like Ari said that looks a lot like 1018 on the spec sheet. I don't know what one is supposed to look like though.

[Shambles]

Likewise, thanks for the posting. Gives me a bit more time for other things.

 

The document does not look to me like a certification but then, I don't really know what a materials certification would look like. I kind of expected some signature of a high company official of the office type on company stationery.

 

There are still the other matters regarding forge work and JIS metal sourcing. However, I'll be content to wait for the promised metalurgist analysis that TSG stated they would have done by an independent lab in the States. That would be very telling.

 

 

Shambles

[Jack aMMo]

Funny I just talked with Ari again and I already sent off a copy of this to Bill at Miura so to get a response and to let him know whats being printed about Mr. Miura. It's crazy that someone would try to discredit Scratch and Miura but stand up for bridgestone/tourstage. Now that makes me think that he sells more of the ladder.

 

That's great, Tim. I still have those TM300 miura's I got from you. I shall be looking forward to what Bill H. has to say about this expose'.

[jamo]

Thanks MoeCat for the proof. It seems to me like TSG was just looking for a couple of quick hits on their website and didn't think about the repercussions.

[TWshoot67]

Did the pdf in post #39 show this information? I can't open it...

 

 

I haven't been able to open it either as I'm still reinstalling my software. However it was mentioned in other DB's as something other than a materials certificate which, I think, would be an official testament from the company as to the materials they make their product with. A PDF reasder is a relatively easy find and I'll try to find the time to install it today or tonight if I finish installing my new hard disk.

 

I believe TSG is submitting samples to an independent lab in the States so given time we shall have a more definnitive answer than the he said she said merry go round we are currently on.

 

 

Shambles

 

 

What browsers are you guys using. I installed Google chrome and this site has been working much better for me.JAT!

Tim

[Moecat]

What browsers are you guys using. I installed Google chrome and this site has been working much better for me.JAT!

Tim

 

I also recommend Google Chrome for PC/laptop, and Opera Mini for cell phones

[TWshoot67]

I also recommend Google Chrome for PC/laptop, and Opera Mini for cell phones

 

Thanks Moe it really helped me a bunch with overall performance.

 

Tim

 

PS: When I get return email from Bill from Miura about progress I will post immediately . I also invited Bill to join MGS Forum to add his opinions or facts on the subject but he may be waiting for advise from attorneys before making any statements. So's there's really not much more to add until then. If Chris posts results from the independent testing he said he submitted I will gladly post those results if and when he posts on his blog.

 

Tim

[GolfSpy Dave]

What browsers are you guys using. I installed Google chrome and this site has been working much better for me.JAT!

Tim

Safari

Something changed too. I don't see the banner add at the top anymore.

May switch to firefox.

[jamo]

Yes, Google Chrome is very nice. It's not Japanese, and I don't think it's forged though....

[Shambles]

What browsers are you guys using. I installed Google chrome and this site has been working much better for me.JAT!

Tim

 

The only things I mess around with are my golf clubs.and my car. My computers are all stock and I try very hard to keep add ons off. This stuff is so alien to me.

 

 

Shambles

[Shambles]

Thanks Moe it really helped me a bunch with overall performance.

 

Tim

 

PS: When I get return email from Bill from Miura about progress I will post immediately . I also invited Bill to join MGS Forum to add his opinions or facts on the subject but he may be waiting for advise from attorneys before making any statements. So's there's really not much more to add until then. If Chris posts results from the independent testing he said he submitted I will gladly post those results if and when he posts on his blog.

 

Tim

 

 

I rather wish they would drop all that macho BS about attorneys and just come out with the unvarnished truth of what's what. This whole thing is beginning to resemble that Dr. Strangelove Purity of Essence joke.

 

I'm inclined to speculate that all parties involved are telling the truth from their individual perspectives but some parties might be using Clinton's definition of " having an affair ".

 

 

Shambles

[Ari Techner]

I have been at Doral all week and have not been online.

I will state again that 100% of what Chris from TSG/GTI is saying is not true. I stated that before earlier in the thread and also posted one of our order forms that specifically states that our clubs are made from 1018CS. I also received confirmation from our supplier that the steel used in our clubs does come from Japan and that they use a proprietary blend of steel for us that has pretty much the identical metal composition as American 1018CS. They have used this exact steel blend in the past for Wilson and Spalding when they requested the use of 1018CS. This is no different than Mizuno who uses Japanese steel that is some form of S25C but uses the term "1025E Pure Select" carbon steel. The golf industry uses the American classification name for steel as a standard even though nobody produces their clubs in the USA anymore. Everybody uses an Asian steel of some kind but refers to it by the American "10" series carbon steel name with the same carbon content and almost identical metal makeup.

I have no idea why Chris has decided to tell lies about us as well as Miura and no idea why he insists that Mr. Ishihara is dead when he is very much alive. This is not an isolated incident with Chris however, I know of MANY people that have had similar issues with him. If you dont believe me ask MyGolfSpy or Dave Whitlam from Gauge Design Golf.

[TWshoot67]

Ari, I really appreciate all your posts. I hope all the truth comes out and that this guy is made to pay for carelessly writing his opinion and then trying to pass it off as facts.If these statements he made in my opinion were in fact all FACTS he wouldn't be writing in his blog now that he will apologize if the results prove what he said is wrong. he's already hinted that these are his opinions now, Just read his latest updates and you'll see that the printed word that was originally up has now been edited and new opinions have come out.Like he's kissing up to Miura now water what he first said in his first posts have changed!

 

Tim

[GolfSpy Dave]

I really don't understand the mindset of TSG if the accusations are false. Maybe it was promoting a rumor that got a bit out of control.

This was a very damaging statement though to the manufactures involved. Thanks Ari for coming back and posting again. The information coming directly from you is an amazing feature of the thread/discussion.

[TWshoot67]

Yes, Google Chrome is very nice. It's not Japanese, and I don't think it's forged though....

 

Jamo, you sure it's not Japanese?

[Shambles]

I think I'll wait for the test results which should turn up in less than 3 weeks or a little over two. The purchase order doesn't do it for me and neither do all the he said she said exchanges. It would be so much easier if all parties concerned simply posted their evidence.

 

Frankly I don't care much about the material as a club works or it doesn't and material only counts for durability and maintenance. The real business of a club is in design, grind, polish, shaft, loft and lie, total weight, swing weight and a flock of other teeny tiny things that help you find the sweet spot with almost every swing. I've never known anybody who could actually buy a game unless he spent the money on a good fit, a good swing coach and a whole lot of practice. You want smooth and soft, use the sweet spot. These days, so many manufacturers are good at making clubs that it takes talent to make a mistaken purchase.

 

So far we have a hint from Ari that he orders 1018CS from Japan and Chris says Japan doesn't use or make 1018 steel because it's inferior but thinks Ari's clubs are probably made of S20 JIS or S25 JIS either of which would make for a better club. The test results will probably put the materials question to rest.

 

As to the matter of Mr. Ishihara being alive or not, all Mr. Ishihara has to do is speak and identify himself telling TSG is mistaken. It's possible there is more than one Ishihara in the same way there are more than myself with the same name. Life happens.

 

 

 

Shambles

[Shambles]

Test results have come out :

 

http://www.golftoimpress.com/2010/03/scratch-golf-1018-controversy-test-results/#more-9930

 

I guess it's Ari's turn to speak up.

 

 

Shambles

[GolfSpy Dave]

I did not expect that. Not just a little off, but way off. Maybe there is a trusted steel mill that shouldn't be trusted.

Or ????

[Matt Saternus]

There are a handful of explanations I can think of, and I hope one of them is true. I will be anxious to hear Ari's response to this.

[Ari Techner]

When we started Scratch Golf in 2003 and no longer had an American foundry as an option, we tested a bunch of heads with a bunch of different players in an attempt to find the best feeling and most consistent forgings that we could to make our clubs out of. The overwhelming majority of players that helped us in our testing liked once specific head the best. The supplier that we got that head from told us that it was made from 1018 Carbon Steel. Every subsequent order form that we have sent in for heads has said 1018 Carbon Steel on it. I got confirmation from our supplier that the steel that the use for our clubs comes from a Japanese steel mill and is a proprietary mix of steel that most closely resembles American 1018 Carbon Steel. It is the same steel they have used for other OEMs in the past when they have requested clubs from 1018 carbon steel.

 

Despite pretty much all golf clubs being made in Asia, out of steel that uses an Asian classification system, it is standard practice in the golf industry to use an American name for the steel like 10_ _ instead of S_ _ C.

 

Along with getting confirmation from our supplier, we sent 2 clubs in for independent testing to get results on their metal composition. I got a call today with the results and will have a written copy tomorrow that I will post on here. Both clubs that I sent in tested to have 15% carbon content. This is consistent with the range of carbon in the properties of American 1018 Carbon Steel.

 

1018 Carbon Steel Properties

 

As I mentioned above it is standard practice in the golf industry to use Asian steel and refer to it in marketing and elsewhere by an American steel name. A perfect example of this is Mizuno as Chris also sent in one of their clubs and so did I. They use the name "1025E Select Carbon Steel" in their marketing for their forged clubs. The club that Chris sent in of theirs tested out to 22% carbon and the one I sent in tested out to 23% carbon. This is within the range for US 1025 Carbon Steel similar to ours being within the range for 1018 carbon steel.

 

1025 Carbon Steel Properties

 

At Scratch Golf we have always prided ourselves on integrity and honesty as well as customer service. We take our time to try to do things the right way and always go out of our way to make our customers happy. Our door is always open to people and I am always available to answer any questions that anyone has. We rely on our suppliers overseas to provide us with the quality product that we ask for and I am satisfied from the results that we got back from the independent testing that they are doing just that.