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The Distance Debate; Solutions to "Too Much" Distance


Subdiver1

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I see that there was a thread a couple of years back on whether or not balls "fly too far" and whether something should be done about it or not.  While I imagine a 'newbie' reigniting such debate will cause some chagrin among those who have put their two cents in previously,  I'd like revive the discussion for two reasons; 

1) Perspective; I would like to hear what people think.  If you have had an opinion in the past, has it changed or has something reinforced your position on the topic?  I'd also like to know if whether watching the interview at the link below (if you haven't already seen it) affects your stance and why or why not?

2) Impact.  I believe that WE, as players, can impact the future of golf (maybe that is a bit presumptuous, but wan can always try); maybe not as individuals, but if we present a united argument, one way or another, to the USGA/PGA etc. that can have an impact on course, club and ball design as well as rules.  Of course that requires individuals to come together and address the issues as a group.  After reviewing the interview, consider how a change to different components could affect your enjoyment of the game and whether or not you want to be heard.

So, I have mentioned this interview a couple of times; before I post the link and before you watch, let me preface with a couple of words (okay maybe a couple of hundred words) on why this made me want to talk/hear a little more on the topic from other players.  Last summer the topic came up during a round; it just so happened that Mr. Snell's points echoed those that I asserted on that sunny day while strolling along the fairways at Gold Mountain.  Please don't take that as an assertion of my infinite wisdom into how golf should really work, or as a self aggrandizing assessment of my importance in the world; it just happens that I shared the same perspective (somehow) as someone with much more experience and wisdom that I have; and I found it intriguing.  So after reading the various message boards and forums here and having so much free time to contemplate the future of the game from my Barcalounger, I thought I might try to reinvigorate the topic; if for no other reason than my own education.  In case you missed it, I completely agree with Mr. Snell, making DJ's drive fly 250 instead of 325 only means that my ball flies 200 instead of 275 off the tee; it does nothing to "equalize" the game.  Putting hazards and choices in play that make the DJs and Tigers out there decide to hit their drive 275 and leave a 215 yard approach equalizes the game.  Sure they may be hitting 3-iron, 5-iron to my driver, 3-irong/hybrid, but it beats them hitting Driver wedge while we hit Driver, 3-iron wedge.  At least I can see Mr. Snell's point and it seems to be more logical than limiting ball flight; to me.

Cheers to you all and I look forward to your perspectives.

https://www.snellgolf.com/blogs/news/dean-weighs-in-on-the-usga-distance-debate?utm_campaign=Weekly Blast - March 3rd%2C 2020 (JbeaTk)&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Feb 2020 Contest Entries&_ke=eyJrbF9lbWFpbCI6ICJzdWJkaXZlcjFAZ21haWwuY29tIiwgImtsX2NvbXBhbnlfaWQiOiAiTmg3M2FOIn0%3D 

  • Driver - Ping G400 9°, Project-X Evenflow Black 6.0S 65 gr. 
  • FW - TM M3 3-wood 15°, Project-X HZRDUS Red 6.0 75 gr. mid-spin
  • Hybrid - TM M4 19°, Project-X Evenflow Black 6.0S 85 gr. HY 
  • Irons - TM P790, 3-PW, Oban CT-115, PXG 311 P Gen 6
  • Wedges - Mizuno T20 Ion blue 52/9 & 56/14, N.S. Pro Modus3 S-flex
  • Putter - Evnroll ER2 Garsen Max grip
  • Getting a grip - oversize Winn DryTacs and Bionic gloves
  • Ball - ProV1, AVX, Maxfli Tour, PXG
  • Bag(s)/cart - Vessel Player III Rovic RV1S and Alphard V2

 

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I've been waiting for the results of that USGA survey with the questions that tried to influence the conclusion that golfers would prefer to hit it short so that they could find their ball.  Ridiculous.

:ping-small:G410 plus driver,:taylormade-small:Aeroburner 3W, :cobra-small:F6 Baffler 
:callaway-small:XR 4, 5 hybrids
:titleist-small:2021 T300 6 - GW, SW irons
:callaway-small: Mack Daddy CB 58/12 wedge
Axis1 Rose putter

Alternates: Srixon ZX4 MKII irons

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The PGA doesn’t necessarily agree with the USGA and R&A. The distance problem is more of a perception issue than a reality. Golf course designers want to host Pga events and thing that distance is the only way they can design a course and get the attention of the tours. As a result they have to buy more land and that isn’t cheap. 
 

the tour setup for courses tend to run fast and firm. Which is why there is a change in the Byron Nelson course because it tends to play slow.

Theres not an amateur in the world that things they hit it to far. 

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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Whenever the distance debate comes up, I think of this quote from Earl Woods about the changes they were doing to Augusta National to "TIger Proof" the course:

Use the ladies’ tees, eliminate all the rough, put the pins in the easiest locations and widen the fairways. That brings everybody in the field into the tournament and I guarantee you Tiger wouldn’t win.”

The distance debate IMHO always involves bringing more players into the action and finding a way to allow more players to contend on the pro tour. Making the course longer does not allow more people to contend. Longer courses emphasize the advantage the long hitters have over shorter hitters on tour.

In all reality, this will never happen, but if you want to have Zach Johnson compete with Dustin Johnson, make the course shorter. It allows Zach to actually compete and contend with Dustin instead of emphasizing the advantage Dustin has with his distance.

In my :cobra-small: Ultralight Stand Bag:

Driver:    :callaway-small: Rogue 10.5° - LH -  Project X EvenFlow 60 Stiff
Woods:   :cobra-small: King F9 - LH - 3/4 Wood - Atmos Blue TS 7 Stiff
               :cobra-small: King F9 - LH - 5/6 Wood - Atmos Blue TS 7 Stiff
Irons:      :cobra-small: King F9 - LH - 5-GW - KBS C-Taper Lite Stiff
Wedges: :cobra-small: King Black - LH - 52° 56° 60° - KBS Hi-Rev 2.0 Stiff
Putter:     :1332069271_TommyArmour: - Impact No. 3
Ball:        Maxfli TourX

Rangefinder: :skycaddie: LX5 Watch

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My Sun Mountain bag currently includes:   TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png 771CSI 5i - PW and TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png PFC Micro Tour-c 52°, 56°, 60 wedges

                                                                               :755178188_TourEdge: EXS 10.5*, TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png 929-HS FW4 16.5* 

                                                                                :edel-golf-1: Willimette w/GolfPride Contour

 

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Thanks for the thread

 

There's a recent story on the blog page where ARCOSS has data that suggests that averaging driving distance is down or at least flat for the recreational golfer.  For 99.9 of us who play there is no issue with distance other than we don't hit it far enough.

 

In regards to the very top players in the world there are lots of things that might be done to mitigate distance advantages.  I'm not so sure that all of them should be employed other than making sure he has to be accurate with his length through course set up.  If a guy can hit it long and straight he has always had an advantage.  Jones, Nicklaus and Woods in their primes weren't short knockers who snuck their way around the course.  They bombed it and on those occasions where they needed to throttle back length was still an advantage because they could hit long iron off the tee knowing full well they'd still only have a mid iron in.

Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  Aldila  R flex   - 42.25 inches 

SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

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Here's an idea that's solves the distance issue.

PLAY FROM THE CORRECT TEE!!! 

If the course has the back tee set at 10,000 yards - don't play from it. I'll be out at the club later and I can assure you 1/2 or more players (men) will be playing the "tips". And of those I'd estimate 3/4 of them should be playing the men's regular tee. These guys are flailing away to see how far over into the other fairway they can hit it I guess. They're awful. But they're real men you know.

Who cares what DJ and the other TV golfers on the 3-club tour do. They are a small fractional share of golfers in this country. And no... the ball doesn't go too far. Golfers play from the wrong tee. Don't be that guy.

My Sun Mountain bag currently includes:   TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png 771CSI 5i - PW and TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png PFC Micro Tour-c 52°, 56°, 60 wedges

                                                                               :755178188_TourEdge: EXS 10.5*, TWGTLogo2.png.06c802075f4d211691d88895b3f34b75.png 929-HS FW4 16.5* 

                                                                                :edel-golf-1: Willimette w/GolfPride Contour

 

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There are so many reasons pros are hitting the ball so much farther: 

The ball:  lower spin off the driver (which means a pro can swing a lot harder than they could in the 1960's without worrying about hitting it out of bounds every time); higher initial ball speed; higher trajectory.  All that adds up to greater distance.

The driver:  longer, light weight shafts equal more clubhead speed; big clubheads and computer design mean a lot more forgiveness allowing players to swing harder.

The course conditions:  courses can mow the fairways very low to get a lot of roll that one week when the PGA is in town.

The players:  players grow up hitting it as hard as possible and worry about accuracy later; better athletes are playing golf as a result of the $$$ available; players typically spend a lot of time in the gym with personal trainers.  All that adds up to more clubhead speed.  We already have Cameron Champ swinging the driver at 130mph during competition.

Even for pros, the average iron loft is about a club stronger than it was 40 or 50 years ago.  And, even muscle backs are often more forgiving than they were in 1960.  Then, too, you have so many pros now playing cavity backs.  So, once again, a pro can swing harder and not be punished as much by a mis-hit.

I'm sure there are other reasons I haven't thought of.

Without significantly longer courses, pros will eventually be hitting wedge into every par 4 that they can't drive and 8 or 9 iron into every par 5.  Not very interesting to watch (IMO only of course).  My concern is the cost of land and upkeep.  As my father always said, they aren't making anymore land and more people means less space for golf courses.  And the cost of upkeep for an 8000 yard course would be enormous.  Then we are back to it being a game only for the wealthy.

I only see one solution and that is to somehow roll back distance.  Baseball has bifurcation of rules (aluminum vs. wood bats) and we accept that.  So, for pros, maybe limit the size of the driver head to around 230 cc and require a return to balls that spin like crazy with every club including the driver.  And, no, that wouldn't be popular.

14 of the following:

Ping G430 Max 10.5 degree

Callaway 2023 Big Bertha 3 wood set to 17 degrees

Cobra F9 Speedback 7/8 wood set at 23.5 degrees

Callaway Epic Max 11 wood

Ping Eye 2 BeCu 2-SW

Mizuno 923 JPX HM HL 6-GW

Hogan sand wedge 56 degree bent to 53

Maltby M Series+ 54 degree

Ping Glide 3.0 Eye2 58 degree

Ping Glide 3.0 60 degree

Evnroll ER2

Ping Sigma 2 Anser

Cheap Top Flite mallet putter from Dick's, currently holding down first place in the bag

TaylorMade Mini Spider

Bridgestone XS

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12 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

The PGA doesn’t necessarily agree with the USGA and R&A. The distance problem is more of a perception issue than a reality. Golf course designers want to host Pga events and thing that distance is the only way they can design a course and get the attention of the tours. As a result they have to buy more land and that isn’t cheap. 
 

the tour setup for courses tend to run fast and firm. Which is why there is a change in the Byron Nelson course because it tends to play slow.

Theres not an amateur in the world that things they hit it to far. 

RickyBobby_PR,

Great point; our own distance doesn't please us and the promoters think that distance is what pleases the crowds.  As much as I like playing a course where I can "grip it and rip it" I really love getting out on a course that makes me "play" the game.  

Thanks.

Scott

  

  • Driver - Ping G400 9°, Project-X Evenflow Black 6.0S 65 gr. 
  • FW - TM M3 3-wood 15°, Project-X HZRDUS Red 6.0 75 gr. mid-spin
  • Hybrid - TM M4 19°, Project-X Evenflow Black 6.0S 85 gr. HY 
  • Irons - TM P790, 3-PW, Oban CT-115, PXG 311 P Gen 6
  • Wedges - Mizuno T20 Ion blue 52/9 & 56/14, N.S. Pro Modus3 S-flex
  • Putter - Evnroll ER2 Garsen Max grip
  • Getting a grip - oversize Winn DryTacs and Bionic gloves
  • Ball - ProV1, AVX, Maxfli Tour, PXG
  • Bag(s)/cart - Vessel Player III Rovic RV1S and Alphard V2

 

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Revkey,

Great points.  The great golfers adjust to the course AND the shot.  I was reading an article the other day on Tiger where he talked about a change in his approach to hitting recovery shots and wedges; "I am much better now at pitching out and trusting my wedge play than I ever used to be, and it's just because I don't have the speed like I used to to be able to hit some of those shots."  While a) I don't recall his wedge play every being much an issue and b) I am sure any one of us would appreciate having the speed he has even now' I get what he is saying and I think it ties to your point.  They are pros because they can draw it 18.2 yards or fade it 31.4 yards around obstacles; while we as amateurs think If I can even loop it around that tree and keep it in the fairway/green area, I'll be thankful (of course some of us can work the ball too, but man what those guys do at the drop of a dime is amazing).  Anyway, I think people miss your other point there, long and straight is good, being able to be long and straight is even better.  When I was a teen (mid-1980s) I could outdrive a lot of adult men at the club, the running question was, "Which fairway will it end up in?" or "Will he get a lucky bounce off a tree and back into play?"  So, yeah I could kill a ball, but the guy with the 225-250 yard drive had a huge advantage over me. And they spent less money on balls too, LOL.  

Thanks,

Scott

Edited by Subdiver1
  • Driver - Ping G400 9°, Project-X Evenflow Black 6.0S 65 gr. 
  • FW - TM M3 3-wood 15°, Project-X HZRDUS Red 6.0 75 gr. mid-spin
  • Hybrid - TM M4 19°, Project-X Evenflow Black 6.0S 85 gr. HY 
  • Irons - TM P790, 3-PW, Oban CT-115, PXG 311 P Gen 6
  • Wedges - Mizuno T20 Ion blue 52/9 & 56/14, N.S. Pro Modus3 S-flex
  • Putter - Evnroll ER2 Garsen Max grip
  • Getting a grip - oversize Winn DryTacs and Bionic gloves
  • Ball - ProV1, AVX, Maxfli Tour, PXG
  • Bag(s)/cart - Vessel Player III Rovic RV1S and Alphard V2

 

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Plaid Jacket (first post),

Thanks for the link.  Reading through the questions and analysis, I found that I was in the majority on most of the questions.  One disagreement I do have is that, in my opinion, professional and amateur golf are not as different as any two sports.  We play the same layout, possibly from different tees, but with the same everything else regardless of being a pro or a 34 handicapper.  The one thing that does set us apart, again my opinion, is lost balls; man what I wouldn't give to have officials and spectators down range spotting my errant shots so I didn't have to take stroke and distance.  Other than that, if you play backyard pond hockey, old goat league baseball, or bowl in the Thursday night league you still play to the same rules as the "pros" so shy should golf "bifurcate" rules when in any other sport they play by the same rules;  Shoot, if any sport has an advantage it is golf, we have different tees for different levels/ages of player.  Imaging if you could move up the bowling lane because you suck?  Of if they had to lob the ball to you because your bat speed was slower than the other guy and because you were 50 , not 38 you only had to run 45 feet to the base instead of 90?  

 

(second response)

While I typically play from the 6500-7000 range tees, I have occasionally thought that maybe I should close it up a bit.  But I got paired up with some guys from across the water (well I guess it was a couple of months back now that I think about it, this shutdown stuff really sucks. Anyway...) I heard one of them quote and interesting calculation; take your 5-iron and multiply if x 36 and that is the yardage you should play from.  Since I hit play my 5-iron out to 190, 190x36=6840; so I guess I am playing the correct tees.  Which makes me feel a little more badly about our league since we all play from the whites and I thought I had an advantage before I heard this formula.  But then again, there are plenty of guys in our league who may not be as long as I am, but they are straight and consistent; like Revkey mentioned, straight is an advantage.  That all said, I agree there are WAY TOO MANY guys out there I see playing from the tips who shouldn't leave the parking lot, but they pay the greens fee just like us so if they want to beat balls into the woods...  I just wish they would take the 5:02 pm tee time so I can get through a round in under 5 hours on occasion.

Thanks very much.  Appreciate the response,

Scott

  

  • Driver - Ping G400 9°, Project-X Evenflow Black 6.0S 65 gr. 
  • FW - TM M3 3-wood 15°, Project-X HZRDUS Red 6.0 75 gr. mid-spin
  • Hybrid - TM M4 19°, Project-X Evenflow Black 6.0S 85 gr. HY 
  • Irons - TM P790, 3-PW, Oban CT-115, PXG 311 P Gen 6
  • Wedges - Mizuno T20 Ion blue 52/9 & 56/14, N.S. Pro Modus3 S-flex
  • Putter - Evnroll ER2 Garsen Max grip
  • Getting a grip - oversize Winn DryTacs and Bionic gloves
  • Ball - ProV1, AVX, Maxfli Tour, PXG
  • Bag(s)/cart - Vessel Player III Rovic RV1S and Alphard V2

 

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5 hours ago, Hook DeLoft said:

There are so many reasons pros are hitting the ball so much farther: 

The ball:  lower spin off the driver (which means a pro can swing a lot harder than they could in the 1960's without worrying about hitting it out of bounds every time); higher initial ball speed; higher trajectory.  All that adds up to greater distance.

The driver:  longer, light weight shafts equal more clubhead speed; big clubheads and computer design mean a lot more forgiveness allowing players to swing harder.

The course conditions:  courses can mow the fairways very low to get a lot of roll that one week when the PGA is in town.

The players:  players grow up hitting it as hard as possible and worry about accuracy later; better athletes are playing golf as a result of the $$$ available; players typically spend a lot of time in the gym with personal trainers.  All that adds up to more clubhead speed.  We already have Cameron Champ swinging the driver at 130mph during competition.

Even for pros, the average iron loft is about a club stronger than it was 40 or 50 years ago.  And, even muscle backs are often more forgiving than they were in 1960.  Then, too, you have so many pros now playing cavity backs.  So, once again, a pro can swing harder and not be punished as much by a mis-hit.

I'm sure there are other reasons I haven't thought of.

Without significantly longer courses, pros will eventually be hitting wedge into every par 4 that they can't drive and 8 or 9 iron into every par 5.  Not very interesting to watch (IMO only of course).  My concern is the cost of land and upkeep.  As my father always said, they aren't making anymore land and more people means less space for golf courses.  And the cost of upkeep for an 8000 yard course would be enormous.  Then we are back to it being a game only for the wealthy.

I only see one solution and that is to somehow roll back distance.  Baseball has bifurcation of rules (aluminum vs. wood bats) and we accept that.  So, for pros, maybe limit the size of the driver head to around 230 cc and require a return to balls that spin like crazy with every club including the driver.  And, no, that wouldn't be popular.

Hook'

Thanks for the response.   I think we all concur on the cost of keeping up longer courses; that is one of the issues we all face (either as an owner or maintainer, or as a player paying greens fees our membership fees).  Using your aluminum v. wood bat comparison, if I raised the fence to a height of ... 500 feet, and put 10 foot wide holes in it for the home run goal would that remove the need to restrict bat material?  The other question on that is at bats v. hits, does bat material change batting average?  Really the material is...immaterial because of the pros are only getting a hit one of every four at a bats, then even when they found the ball off they won't be more accurate, or more successful, they will just hook/slice every farther out of the playing area.  I guess in part it really doesn't matter for any of us how long the pro's hit the ball, unless we get invited to partner up in a charity event or a pro-am, because we are never going to compete against the guys who do this for a living.  But, when the comparison comes into our own club where 40 year olds are playing against 25 year olds who are passing us by 50-60 yards or more, is it more cost effective to install some bunkers and trees, or have even more rules and more club/ball options out there?

Thanks for the perspective.  I look forward tot he discussion.

Scott   

  • Driver - Ping G400 9°, Project-X Evenflow Black 6.0S 65 gr. 
  • FW - TM M3 3-wood 15°, Project-X HZRDUS Red 6.0 75 gr. mid-spin
  • Hybrid - TM M4 19°, Project-X Evenflow Black 6.0S 85 gr. HY 
  • Irons - TM P790, 3-PW, Oban CT-115, PXG 311 P Gen 6
  • Wedges - Mizuno T20 Ion blue 52/9 & 56/14, N.S. Pro Modus3 S-flex
  • Putter - Evnroll ER2 Garsen Max grip
  • Getting a grip - oversize Winn DryTacs and Bionic gloves
  • Ball - ProV1, AVX, Maxfli Tour, PXG
  • Bag(s)/cart - Vessel Player III Rovic RV1S and Alphard V2

 

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I think that Jack Nicklaus started a debate that shouldn't exist. The game of golf is evolving just like every other sport. Golfers are stronger golf balls are better. That simple. You can't keep making these extremely long courses to compensate because the large majority of people are not hitting it 300 plus. As stated earlier if you buffer the balls for the tour pros the effect trickles down. 

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8 hours ago, Subdiver1 said:

RickyBobby_PR,

Great point; our own distance doesn't please us and the promoters think that distance is what pleases the crowds.  As much as I like playing a course where I can "grip it and rip it" I really love getting out on a course that makes me "play" the game.  

Thanks.

Scott

  

Lots of ways to play the game. Lots of tee options to choose from that could change ones approach, although in my experience playing with people who move up a tee box or two they don’t change their approach. I have some older golfers I play with throughout the year. In the 20+ years I’ve been playing with them it doesn’t matter what tee they are on it’s driver off the tee on every par 4 and 5 even if it put them in an uncomfortable distance they se only concerned with hitting it as far as they can and get as close as possible off the tee. 

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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Other sports adjust their rules when the game gets “out of balance”.  
 

Take football as an example.  The rules regarding kicking have changed numerous times in my lifetime as kickers have gotten better and longer.  The improved skill of kickers fundamentally changed the relationship between a touchdown, field goal, extra point and punt to pin the other team deep in their own territory.  For a while, almost anytime a team got over the 40 yard line, they would kick a field.  The game got boring as the strategy changed.  
 

in my lifetime, the rule changes regarding kicking include narrowing the goal post to make it harder, kicking field goals off the turf (they used to use a wooden block on which the holder would place the ball), moving the line of scrimmage back for extra points, moving the kickoff from the 40 to the 35, for a kickoff in the end zone having the receiving team start on the 25 instead of the 20.  
 

In basketball, the game stagnated when 7 footers entered the game.  The guards became less important.  The rules were changed and the three point line was added to re-balance the inside and out side game.  
 

I think golf has gotten out of balance in the last few decades.  Courses were (and are) built to present challenges.  Green complexes on short par fours are different than those on long par fours because the architect expects the golfer to be hitting different clubs and types of shots into the green.  Hazards are placed to present a challenge or strategic choice off the tee.  The response to longer hitters has been to lengthen courses and move hazards, neither of which is sustainable.  It’s just too expensive, and great courses lose their strategic appeal. 
 

Think about comments you have read regarding the “bomb and gouge” game or the “three club tour.”
 

Distance is measure in absolute terms, but “long” or “short” is relative.  If steps are taken the reign in absolute distance, long hitters will still be long compared to the other players. But, some balance would be returned to the game.  Long par fours would be long again, meaning that most players would have to hit low lofted clubs into the green once again, which is the shot the hole was designed for.  

As for average golfers like me, it means I would need to move up a set of tees.  I play the same course I grew up playing as a kid.  The changes in technology mean the course is challenging to me when play the blues, the same tees I played in high school.  Obviously I am not stronger or faster than I was 40 years ago.  I have kept most of my distance because of changes in the ball and clubs.  My course actually plays longer than it did back then because it is now watered so we don’t get the summer roll from baked out fairways.

I think the reason people talk so much about limiting the ball is because it is the fastest, least disruptive and least expensive way to limit distance.  Balls are replaced regularly.  We lose them and scuff them.  Plus they are relatively inexpensive.  Clubs last for years and are a much more expensive outlay.  
 

 

 

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@Alfriday101, 

Good point about watering, some of the courses I used to play have better drainage, so they actually do roll; others have better watering AND drainage so it is not like hitting onto parking lot blacktop.  

 

@Rickybobby_PR,

Funny you should mention those points. A lot of the older players I have played with are the opposite.  It is amazing (in a wow, what a game; not a what are you doing? manner of speaking) to watch an older, shorter player best "the bombers" and to watch those long players get frustrated when the older, shorter players are just consistent, down the middle, up and down throughout the round and beating them in strokes or holes even though they outdrive them on the par 4s and 5s.  That noted, there are guys who are now 'older' that I play with who exhibit that same approach you are talking about; I think those are the guys who have never adapted; they grew up trying to bomb it all the time and never "grew up" in their game maturity; in my experience most of those guys are not in the single digits and never have been able to consistently, if ever, break 80.  Honestly, I have to watch myself as well as it is nice to be able to lay one out there and be within range of going for it in 2 on the mid-length par 5s. 

The other thing that I have noticed is that there are plenty of times when I shift, with other players, to shorter tee boxes that the game is so much ...harder or maybe more challenging is a better way to state it.  Instead of just pounding a driver down an open fairway, I have to consider how much club to play especially off the tee on many par 4s so a 5-iron doesn't roll through the fairway because of a slope or maybe play a hybrid or iron instead of a 3-wood to the wider area rather than trying to thread the needle.  And then there is the consideration of where I leave myself for an approach when I play from tees that I am not used to.   Angles and landing areas can change dramatically when you shift tees; depending on the course, of course.

 

I think one of the best ways to see the impact of this discussion may be playing in a Red-White-Blue tournament; the format where teams choose which of the three tee options they will play for each hole prior to starting the round.  It is interesting not only to work on your own strategy, but to see how others plan out their approach.  I see a lot of the shorter, higher handicap players running up to the red tees on par 5s trying to get a little closer for an eagle chance.  But the sort-mid length, lower handicap players stay back on the long holes where gaining 50-yards from the tee still leaves them with no chance of getting on, or at least not with a wedge approach; then they play up on the long par 3s or par 4s where a good drive can get in a short wedge and make birdies.  I guess that might be a good way of looking at the strategies of adapting the game.   This all goes back to adapting the course to "equalize" instead of penalizing us as we get older with limiting equipment or multiple rules.  Putting a bunker in a 275, 290, 305 and around a dog-leg that longer players might try to cut effectively lengthens the course for them and keep the shorter players "in the game."  Sure we are hitting 5-wood instead of 5-iron from 210, but while the long player is trying to stick a 5-iron, short game players might choose that 5-iron to put them at 30-60 yards where they can stick a wedge and one put, vice trying to drain a 40 ft. putt after rilling a 5-iron across the green.  

Two thoughts for the comments being shared:

1) One 'issue' with having multiple sets of rules that I haven't seen considered is those of us who play Pro-AMs and other local tournaments.  Having multiple sets of rules, especially if it involves equipment means that we either have to have multiple sets and balls and have remember which set of rules to apply to which situation. 

2) What do you do when temperature and altitude start to impact carry distance?  What about when there are high winds? 

I learned a lot during life and a long military career; one of the primary lessons was K.I.S.S.  Keep It Simple Stupid.   There is a lot to be said for simple.  Like, "Hey mayors and governors, simply let me go back to playing golf."

Good discussion, I appreciate the input as it makes me consider other perspectives and approaches; e.g. the complications of two sets of rules for those if us who play casually as well as in leagues and local, regional and other level tournaments; environmental considerations; etc.  Open the can and there are often more worms inside than you initially realize you are going to have to deal with.

 Cheers,

Scott

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LET the grass grow for the pros... Us regular jackoffs don't need longer courses. If we take the tour numbers out of the data I bet there is o need for longer courses. I'm a long ball hitter and it does me no good if I cant hit the green or sink a putt. And trust me hitting 300+ yard drives isn't always a good thing.

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Interesting article on this discussion published April 20th on Golf.com.

https://www.golf.com/instruction/2020/04/22/pga-tour-distance-problem-never-more-obvious/?utm_campaign=forecast&utm_source=golf.com&utm_medium=email&utm_content={date(&utm_term=Forecast Newsletter

According to the authors research, 20 percent of the scoring advantage for the top 40 players from 2004-2018 was attributable to longer driving (Broadie, 2020).  

From my reading of the data and the article, his data suggests that longer courses help no one and hurt only the shorter players.  His assertion that magically increasing everyones distance by 10 yards would not provide any player with a scoring advantage, but that it is relative driving distance that confers an advantage (Broadie, 2020) just goes to support that the strategy is to force longer players to play shorter.  Just like adding 10 yards to every players carry will not provide an advantage, restricting clubs or ball flight will not help shorter players.  Beside, how do you shorten one player's carry without affecting another's?  I guess if a company came up with a club or ball that at some set swing speed, no longer compressed, or over compressed, giving players with higher swing speeds no advantage for their athleticism over others that would be one way; I am not sure how that would work.  So, like ZenSnake points out, grow the grass to shorten roll.  Like others have pointed out, place hazards in the range the causes long players to play strategically.  That does a couple of things for everyone, it causes strategy to come into play where even shorter length players can compete and it allows older, shorter courses to be adapted without having to buy more real estate, and new courses can be developed on similar foot prints.  Additionally, on the 'cost per acre' issue, I would imagine the cost to 'maintain' hazard areas like wet lands and ravines is significantly less than maintaining another 100 sand traps and 1000 yards of fairway and rough.  Two birds, one stone. 

 

@Zen Snake with you all the way.  Seems like the data from this article supports.  I was still able to hit the 300 yard mark pretty consistently up until the shoulder surgery, but now getting there is more of a fluke than anything.  I cannot complain too much though since I still average 265-270 off the tee and can reach quite a few of our par 5s here in two with a hybrid or long iron, when I am playing steadily.  And like you allude to, hitting 300 has gotten me into many ...rough spots when I decide to go for it instead of playing smart.  The thing that has me a little perplexed about that is that I still carry my irons about the same distance, it is really just the tee ball where I have lost the majority of distance.   Honestly though, I fond myself playing a bit better when I acknowledge my current distances and play the course; I get myself into trouble when I think I might be able to eke out a few more yards and carry a hill or hazard, or drive a 295 green rather than dropping a club and laying up.

Cheers and thanks for your service.

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11 minutes ago, Subdiver1 said:

Interesting article on this discussion published April 20th on Golf.com.

https://www.golf.com/instruction/2020/04/22/pga-tour-distance-problem-never-more-obvious/?utm_campaign=forecast&utm_source=golf.com&utm_medium=email&utm_content={date(&utm_term=Forecast Newsletter

According to the authors research, 20 percent of the scoring advantage for the top 40 players from 2004-2018 was attributable to longer driving (Broadie, 2020).  

From my reading of the data and the article, his data suggests that longer courses help no one and hurt only the shorter players.  His assertion that magically increasing everyones distance by 10 yards would not provide any player with a scoring advantage, but that it is relative driving distance that confers an advantage (Broadie, 2020) just goes to support that the strategy is to force longer players to play shorter.  Just like adding 10 yards to every players carry will not provide an advantage, restricting clubs or ball flight will not help shorter players.  Beside, how do you shorten one player's carry without affecting another's?  I guess if a company came up with a club or ball that at some set swing speed, no longer compressed, or over compressed, giving players with higher swing speeds no advantage for their athleticism over others that would be one way; I am not sure how that would work.  So, like ZenSnake points out, grow the grass to shorten roll.  Like others have pointed out, place hazards in the range the causes long players to play strategically.  That does a couple of things for everyone, it causes strategy to come into play where even shorter length players can compete and it allows older, shorter courses to be adapted without having to buy more real estate, and new courses can be developed on similar foot prints.  Additionally, on the 'cost per acre' issue, I would imagine the cost to 'maintain' hazard areas like wet lands and ravines is significantly less than maintaining another 100 sand traps and 1000 yards of fairway and rough.  Two birds, one stone. 

 

@Zen Snake with you all the way.  Seems like the data from this article supports.  I was still able to hit the 300 yard mark pretty consistently up until the shoulder surgery, but now getting there is more of a fluke than anything.  I cannot complain too much though since I still average 265-270 off the tee and can reach quite a few of our par 5s here in two with a hybrid or long iron, when I am playing steadily.  And like you allude to, hitting 300 has gotten me into many ...rough spots when I decide to go for it instead of playing smart.  The thing that has me a little perplexed about that is that I still carry my irons about the same distance, it is really just the tee ball where I have lost the majority of distance.   Honestly though, I fond myself playing a bit better when I acknowledge my current distances and play the course; I get myself into trouble when I think I might be able to eke out a few more yards and carry a hill or hazard, or drive a 295 green rather than dropping a club and laying up.

Cheers and thanks for your service.

 @Subdiver1The way Id Play @ Rolling hills, Gold mountain or the Kitsap country club would be totally different than how I would played in Cali when stationed there of here in Texas were I settled. I'd Deffenatly lose 15-30 yard of roll if was playing in Bremerton. Texas doesn't know what real wet and long rough is. LOL

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On 4/23/2020 at 11:09 AM, Zen Snake said:

 @Subdiver1The way Id Play @ Rolling hills, Gold mountain or the Kitsap country club would be totally different than how I would played in Cali when stationed there of here in Texas were I settled. I'd Deffenatly lose 15-30 yard of roll if was playing in Bremerton. Texas doesn't know what real wet and long rough is. LOL

Oh man, Rolling Hills; how long ago was that?  Ronnie Keil (retired COB) took over for a few years and really did some magic with their drainage and the conditions there before he passed away but you know what conditions there are; I have putted on smoother, faster fairways, but conditions were definitely better than 20 years ago.  Kitsap CC had their drainage system redone a couple of years ago and they rerouted a couple of the holes that drop down to Chico Way; that is a pretty good course to reference in this topic; a lot of people I have talked to think that the course would be easy since it maxes out at ~6300 yards (according to the score card anyway, but to get 6300 yds they really have to stretch it), right up until they play it.  Visiting golfers who play scratch on 6500+ yard courses get destroyed there by the greens and the layout at the annual tournament at Kitsap; that course eats me up.   

I agree, playing in New England, HI, Cali, Florida is all different; Semper Gumby!  We don't really have a lot of grain on the greens I play on up here so when I go to places where there is a grain that becomes my biggest challenge.  As far as carry goes, even having played outside Denver and in New Mexico I never really saw the benefit from altitude, but that was me.  The first time I played golf in HI I learned what it meant to have to club up or down for wind; holy cow the wind on the North and east sides!  Growing up in New England we never saw that kind of wind, we would see changes in carry for temperature, but wind wasn't really a factor.  I think that is another aspect that sets the Pros aside from the rest of us, put them in whatever conditions you have and they will adapt and excel; move us to a new state to play from week to week and most of us will end up having dumped at least one set of clubs in a ravine or a pond somewhere.

Semper Fi and stay well down there in the Lone Star state sir,

V/R
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13 hours ago, Subdiver1 said:

Oh man, Rolling Hills; how long ago was that?  Ronnie Keil (retired COB) took over for a few years and really did some magic with their drainage and the conditions there before he passed away but you know what conditions there are; I have putted on smoother, faster fairways, but conditions were definitely better than 20 years ago.  Kitsap CC had their drainage system redone a couple of years ago and they rerouted a couple of the holes that drop down to Chico Way; that is a pretty good course to reference in this topic; a lot of people I have talked to think that the course would be easy since it maxes out at ~6300 yards (according to the score card anyway, but to get 6300 yds they really have to stretch it), right up until they play it.  Visiting golfers who play scratch on 6500+ yard courses get destroyed there by the greens and the layout at the annual tournament at Kitsap; that course eats me up.   

I agree, playing in New England, HI, Cali, Florida is all different; Semper Gumby!  We don't really have a lot of grain on the greens I play on up here so when I go to places where there is a grain that becomes my biggest challenge.  As far as carry goes, even having played outside Denver and in New Mexico I never really saw the benefit from altitude, but that was me.  The first time I played golf in HI I learned what it meant to have to club up or down for wind; holy cow the wind on the North and east sides!  Growing up in New England we never saw that kind of wind, we would see changes in carry for temperature, but wind wasn't really a factor.  I think that is another aspect that sets the Pros aside from the rest of us, put them in whatever conditions you have and they will adapt and excel; move us to a new state to play from week to week and most of us will end up having dumped at least one set of clubs in a ravine or a pond somewhere.

Semper Fi and stay well down there in the Lone Star state sir,

V/R
Scott 

94-99 right before I joined the Corps. Played my high schoolyears there. Even worked at Rolling hills on the range as a kid. And the driving range off the highway I think it was called NW driving range, then became Rocket Golf... Man that was so long ago. Ted was the head pro back then. And Kitsap C.C was the hardest course around, not super long but tight doglegs in the woods makes u play. Wet very wet lol. But good to here things have improved.

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  • 4 months later...

Watching  B.A.D. win the Open by bombing it reminded me of this thread.  Some thoughts:  Long hitters have always had an advantage (Snead, Nicklaus, Woods, etc), but I wonder if it is now impossible to grow rough that is thick and tall enough to punish the long hitters without causing the average hitters to shoot a gazillion over par.  The players are so strong and the difference in spin of the modern ball from the rough and fairway being less than with wound balls, rough seems to have much less effect on the outcome of a shot.  I am one of those who would like to see pros hitting mid irons into par 4s but those days are gone for good, unless someone has enough land for 600 yard par 4s and 700 yard par 5s.  Of course, par is an artificial construct but the rules of golf define par as the score an expert player would be expected to make on a hole allowing for 2 putts.  On one of the par 5s today, Bryson and Wolff both hit wedge for their second shots.  How is that a par 5?  Are we on the way path to the USGA labeling Oakmount as a par 67 for the Open?  All of this applies only to the pro game.  But if the pro game becomes strictly bomb and gouge, then for some of us, it would be only a little more interesting than long drive contests.

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Watching  B.A.D. win the Open by bombing it reminded me of this thread.  Some thoughts:  Long hitters have always had an advantage (Snead, Nicklaus, Woods, etc), but I wonder if it is now impossible to grow rough that is thick and tall enough to punish the long hitters without causing the average hitters to shoot a gazillion over par.  The players are so strong and the difference in spin of the modern ball from the rough and fairway being less than with wound balls, rough seems to have much less effect on the outcome of a shot.  I am one of those who would like to see pros hitting mid irons into par 4s but those days are gone for good, unless someone has enough land for 600 yard par 4s and 700 yard par 5s.  Of course, par is an artificial construct but the rules of golf define par as the score an expert player would be expected to make on a hole allowing for 2 putts.  On one of the par 5s today, Bryson and Wolff both hit wedge for their second shots.  How is that a par 5?  Are we on the way path to the USGA labeling Oakmount as a par 67 for the Open?  All of this applies only to the pro game.  But if the pro game becomes strictly bomb and gouge, then for some of us, it would be only a little more interesting than long drive contests.
You are so right on that so much of it applies to the pros only. So my thoughts

1. Don't punish everyone who golfs because 4 dudes got it 360.

2. Did you see how much roll out these guys were getting? Sometimes 40 yards plus. I know my stats from trackman fitting, and I fly 268 with maybe 12 yards of roll. Put me on a PGA setup and I'm all of a sudden a 310 bomber.

3. PGA, USGA, R&A messed up big time time by not bifurcating the rules...if they are actually concerned about distance. Based on the aforementioned course setups, they seem to LOOOOOVVE distance.

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Also I think it’s import to note that the course worked just as it was supposed to for every other golfer besides Bryson, even par or worse. DeChambeau was and is a special golfer and he had everything working today. Very few, if any, golfers will be willing or able to do what he is doing (and time will tell if his body will really let him continue doing it).

In my mind, they shouldn’t be trying to really limit the distance, but instead just make the distance more risky. If deep rough can’t do it, then mark zones as OB and unplayable for pro tournaments. Few white stakes will make the “bomb and gouge” a much tougher proposition and is a lot easier than trying to completely change the rules or equipment.

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Also I think it’s import to note that the course worked just as it was supposed to for every other golfer besides Bryson, even par or worse. DeChambeau was and is a special golfer and he had everything working today. Very few, if any, golfers will be willing or able to do what he is doing (and time will tell if his body will really let him continue doing it).

In my mind, they shouldn’t be trying to really limit the distance, but instead just make the distance more risky. If deep rough can’t do it, then mark zones as OB and unplayable for pro tournaments. Few white stakes will make the “bomb and gouge” a much tougher proposition and is a lot easier than trying to completely change the rules or equipment.
Agree with this too. And I kind of feel that is how the US Open is supposed to feel. One guy, who is one of the 5 best in the world played a unique strategy and still had to play out of his mind to win. I don't like Bryson due to his personality we've seen since golf returned, but there's no denying his talent and he figured out a style of IDGAF golf that works for him.

It will be interesting to see what Augusta has prepared for these big hitters in November as the entirety of the Masters is controlled by AGNC, they don't have to adhere to PGA/USGA standards. If they Tiger-proofed, they can Bryson/DJ/Rory/Rahm proof.

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Bryson has a great week, no doubt. The final pairing being him and Wolff probably means that if you are going to setup a course where the field hits less than 40% of the fairways, you might as well hit it as far as you can. 

This week was all course setup. Both Bryson and Wolff hit less than 50% of the fairways on the week. 

If the goal of the tournament is to see who hits driver the furthest, this is the way to setup a course. If you're goal is to see who is the most complete player, setup the course @ 6500y and stop caring about trying to keep the field above par. 

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17 hours ago, Hook DeLoft said:

Watching  B.A.D. win the Open by bombing it reminded me of this thread.  Some thoughts:  Long hitters have always had an advantage (Snead, Nicklaus, Woods, etc), but I wonder if it is now impossible to grow rough that is thick and tall enough to punish the long hitters without causing the average hitters to shoot a gazillion over par.  The players are so strong and the difference in spin of the modern ball from the rough and fairway being less than with wound balls, rough seems to have much less effect on the outcome of a shot.  I am one of those who would like to see pros hitting mid irons into par 4s but those days are gone for good, unless someone has enough land for 600 yard par 4s and 700 yard par 5s.  Of course, par is an artificial construct but the rules of golf define par as the score an expert player would be expected to make on a hole allowing for 2 putts.  On one of the par 5s today, Bryson and Wolff both hit wedge for their second shots.  How is that a par 5?  Are we on the way path to the USGA labeling Oakmount as a par 67 for the Open?  All of this applies only to the pro game.  But if the pro game becomes strictly bomb and gouge, then for some of us, it would be only a little more interesting than long drive contests.

Just a few responses.  First, its INAPPROPRIATE to grow rough high enough to impact the PGA Tour players, and then leave it that high for the rest of us mere mortals.  Its not worth asking the question, really, we should never be playing a course with that kind of rough in our normal play.

Par is defined as you say it, but the "expert player", the scratch golfer, is also defined as a player who hits it 250 or so for course rating purposes.  This is a realistic number for most scratch players, based on the most recent USGA/R&A Distance Insights report.  You can be an expert without being one of the extremely small group of experts who compete on the big professional tours.

I do agree, I'm not crazy about the evolution of playing style on the top tour, but there have been some really exciting competitions this year, and some course set-ups where there's more premium on accuracy.  Its interesting that when you narrow the fairways too much, you encourage bomb and gouge.  If you're going to miss half the fairways, its better to be 30 or 50 yards closer to the green and hitting wedge from the rough instead of 6-iron.  Pot bunkers that force a player to hit sideways, trees that require the same kind of thing, those factors increase the penalty for inaccuracy. 

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:callaway-small:Rogue SubZero, GD YS-Six X

:mizuno-small: T22 54 and 58 wedges

:mizuno-small: 7-wood

:Sub70: 5-wood

 B60 G5i putter

Right handed

Reston, Virginia

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38 minutes ago, Thin2win said:

This week was all course setup. Both Bryson and Wolff hit less than 50% of the fairways on the week. 

 

The entire field hit less than 50% of fairways, Bryson hit more than the average. 

I think that the powers that be are still learning how to setup a golf course to avoid the so called bomb & gouge. Unfortunately they are using old ideas to do so, and they continue to be proven wrong. Long rough is fine and it will negate some of the length however fairways so tight that almost nobody can hit half of takes away all accuracy gains. 

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image.png.dee92ef6cebb2ac4a3883744fc248f12.png     Stealth 2+ 15 (Diamana PD 70 S 43")

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45 minutes ago, THEZIPR23 said:

The entire field hit less than 50% of fairways, Bryson hit more than the average. 

I think that the powers that be are still learning how to setup a golf course to avoid the so called bomb & gouge. Unfortunately they are using old ideas to do so, and they continue to be proven wrong. Long rough is fine and it will negate some of the length however fairways so tight that almost nobody can hit half of takes away all accuracy gains. 

Yep. I was saying this very thing when the stat about FIR came-out yesterday. It’s not like Bryson hit more fairways. The whole field was way down, so the argument, that hitting more fairways was blown away by Bryson, is completely moot. If the field had shown more accuracy, then there’d be an argument.

 

Driver: Ping G430 Max 9*, Ping Tour 70X

Fairway: Ping G425 15*, Ping Tour 70X

Hybrid: Ping G425 22*, Ping Tour 80X

Irons:  Ping i230 4-GW, TT DG X100

Wedges: :edel-golf-1: SMS 50D/54V/58D:Nippon:Modus 130 stiff, +1”

Putter:  :edel-golf-1: EAS 1.0

Ball: Titleist 2023 AVX

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I have an idea for the USGA: set-up the courses like Europe does in the Ryder Cup! Our bombers can’t do CRAP on those courses!!!! Talk about negate bombers! They beat us like a drum over there!!!!

Driver: Ping G430 Max 9*, Ping Tour 70X

Fairway: Ping G425 15*, Ping Tour 70X

Hybrid: Ping G425 22*, Ping Tour 80X

Irons:  Ping i230 4-GW, TT DG X100

Wedges: :edel-golf-1: SMS 50D/54V/58D:Nippon:Modus 130 stiff, +1”

Putter:  :edel-golf-1: EAS 1.0

Ball: Titleist 2023 AVX

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