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The Distance Debate; Solutions to "Too Much" Distance


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1 hour ago, PMookie said:

Yep. I was saying this very thing when the stat about FIR came-out yesterday. It’s not like Bryson hit more fairways. The whole field was way down, so the argument, that hitting more fairways was blown away by Bryson, is completely moot. If the field had shown more accuracy, then there’d be an argument.

 

Agreed. Long rough, narrow fairways and long holes disproportionately benefit the long hitters. Now, long rough, narrow fairways and a short course. That is how you stop the drive from winning the day. 

If they setup a course with no fairways, only rough, everyone would just hit it as far as possible and the longest drivers would see the biggest benefit, that was almost what happened this weekend. 

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I guess, if the powers at be really want to reward driving accuracy, just put white OB stakes within 3 yards of every fairway. I just played a course that had super wide fairways, but no rough and OB stakes on both sides of every hole. Was the hardest course I've ever played. 

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Just a few responses.  First, its INAPPROPRIATE to grow rough high enough to impact the PGA Tour players, and then leave it that high for the rest of us mere mortals.  Its not worth asking the question, really, we should never be playing a course with that kind of rough in our normal play.
Par is defined as you say it, but the "expert player", the scratch golfer, is also defined as a player who hits it 250 or so for course rating purposes.  This is a realistic number for most scratch players, based on the most recent USGA/R&A Distance Insights report.  You can be an expert without being one of the extremely small group of experts who compete on the big professional tours.
I do agree, I'm not crazy about the evolution of playing style on the top tour, but there have been some really exciting competitions this year, and some course set-ups where there's more premium on accuracy.  Its interesting that when you narrow the fairways too much, you encourage bomb and gouge.  If you're going to miss half the fairways, its better to be 30 or 50 yards closer to the green and hitting wedge from the rough instead of 6-iron.  Pot bunkers that force a player to hit sideways, trees that require the same kind of thing, those factors increase the penalty for inaccuracy. 
Agree about the rough and the playing style. It's also inappropriate to make rulings or changes that effect everyone, I would say negatively if we're talking less distance, based on what 1% of the 1% do & play.

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3 minutes ago, Thin2win said:

Agreed. Long rough, narrow fairways and long holes disproportionately benefit the long hitters. Now, long rough, narrow fairways and a short course. That is how you stop the drive from winning the day. 

If they setup a course with no fairways, only rough, everyone would just hit it as far as possible and the longest drivers would see the biggest benefit, that was almost what happened this weekend. 

I don't think narrow fairways is the answer. They had narrow fairways at wing foot and accuracy didn't matter at all. Short or long course, you have to find a way to balance accuracy vs distance. 

Not easy to do.

 

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9 minutes ago, THEZIPR23 said:

I don't think narrow fairways is the answer. They had narrow fairways at wing foot and accuracy didn't matter at all. Short or long course, you have to find a way to balance accuracy vs distance. 

Not easy to do.

The other thing that's not easy to do is to accept that the game has changed and will continue to change.  Modern elite players simply don't need to play the same strategy that Nicklaus did, just as Nicklaus didn't need to play the same strategy that Bobby Jones did, and Jones didn't play the way Tom Morris (take your pick which one) did.

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I think it's important to note what Bryson did to himself to put himself in this position. The dude packed on, I think, 40+ pounds in hopes of what could be. Bryson saw the advantages, took a risk, and it ultimately paid off. Additionally, how about his choice of one-length irons and putter with more loft than his driver. 

When push comes to shove, I think this will boil down to being an overaction by most. The same think happened after the rocket mortgage. The dude is jacked, swings hard, hits it straight, and makes putts. I'm perfectly fine with someone winning with that formula.  

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24 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

The other thing that's not easy to do is to accept that the game has changed and will continue to change.  Modern elite players simply don't need to play the same strategy that Nicklaus did, just as Nicklaus didn't need to play the same strategy that Bobby Jones did, and Jones didn't play the way Tom Morris (take your pick which one) did.

I love it. Yep. In basketball they shoot threes all the time, no more pounding it inside. In football, they’re throwing the ball all over the place. In baseball, they swing for the fences, and strikeout at record pace. Tennis is COMPLETELY different from when Borg and McEnroe competed for Wimbledon.... For some reason, golf has to stay the same! 

The “stuffiness” needs to go away. 

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I can understand making the course conditions tough for the Pro's. Especially for the US open. But there comes a point in time when it's just too much. With the fairways so narrow and the rough so deep have they gone too far? The biggest injury in golf are wrist injury's. Why try to cause injury. Ok their rough should be deeper than ours, but that was too much in my opinion. You want to make it tough go the other way on a few things. Increase the height of the grass in the fairway for less roll, increase the height of the grass on the greens to slow down the putts.  Lets see them try to make a 50 foot putt on a green rolling to an 8 instead of a 12 to 14. Only a few years back their putting conditions were running at a 10. Then they thought it would be tougher to speed them up. That's not working! Let's face it they are Pro's and they will adapt to the conditions. If they shoot 15 under so what. 

      

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1 minute ago, Tom the Golf Nut said:

I can understand making the course conditions tough for the Pro's. Especially for the US open. But there comes a point in time when it's just too much. With the fairways so narrow and the rough so deep have they gone too far? The biggest injury in golf are wrist injury's. Why try to cause injury. Ok their rough should be deeper than ours, but that was too much in my opinion. You want to make it tough go the other way on a few things. Increase the height of the grass in the fairway for less roll, increase the height of the grass on the greens to slow down the putts.  Lets see them try to make a 50 foot putt on a green rolling to an 8 instead of a 12 to 14. Only a few years back their putting conditions were running at a 10. Then they thought it would be tougher to speed them up. That's not working! Let's face it they are Pro's and they will adapt to the conditions. If they shoot 15 under so what. 

      

When the Stimp meter was first invented in the 60's, the USGA sent a team to measure the green speeds at a number of top courses such as Augusta National, Winged Foot, Oakmont, etc.  IIRC, the fastest greens were at Oakmont and they measured at 9 or 10.  Augusta measured at a 7.  If you have a good stroke, putts are easier to make on fast greens -- although that rule has limits.  For instance, I'm guessing a Stimp reading of 20 would truly be impossible.  On the subject of putting a premium on accuracy, growing long rough is not going to do it at the highest levels.  When I'm in long rough, I am lucky to hit the ball 10 yards back into the fairway.  That is not an issue for tour players.  I'm beginning to think the only way to award accuracy on tour is to plant a whole lot of trees very close to the fairways.

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I got it.... Get some blue tarps and cut them in the shape of a pond and place them in the fairway at 280 yards. If they hit the tarp its in the water. Penalty!  JUST KIDDING. But temporary hazards of some type would be interesting. This way your not killing a course for everyone else once the event is over. 

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10 minutes ago, Tom the Golf Nut said:

I got it.... Get some blue tarps and cut them in the shape of a pond and place them in the fairway at 280 yards. If they hit the tarp its in the water. Penalty!  JUST KIDDING. But temporary hazards of some type would be interesting. This way your not killing a course for everyone else once the event is over. 

I'd mentioned that above, just a few strategically placed white stakes won't prevent the bombs, but it could make it a riskier proposition. I honestly do think this is the answer, at least at the occasional tournament.

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24 minutes ago, Tom the Golf Nut said:

I got it.... Get some blue tarps and cut them in the shape of a pond and place them in the fairway at 280 yards. If they hit the tarp its in the water. Penalty!  JUST KIDDING. But temporary hazards of some type would be interesting. This way your not killing a course for everyone else once the event is over. 

Wouldn't this just make accuracy the same advantage that distance is now? 

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4 hours ago, THEZIPR23 said:

Wouldn't this just make accuracy the same advantage that distance is now? 

True, but it would get more players in contention. Also probably force more accuracy with longer clubs into the green. Not that they aren't accurate now. But there is a difference between a wedge and a 4 iron into the green for sure.

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Make the ball spin again.  There were guys who could mash it during the wound ball days, but there was a risk of hitting the ball off the planet.  Bryson may not have hit a ton of fairways, but I don't recall having seen him in the trees.  And most of the time, he was on the correct side of the fairway to give himself an angle into the green where he could get the ball on the putting surface, even if he had to bounce the ball on.  He was able to take the wrong side of the hole out of play just about every time, and that's all he needed to do.

A spinnier ball is not a Harrison Bergeron move to disadvantage longer hitters.  A long hitter hitting a 280 yard driving iron is going to be better than Brendon Todd hitting 280 yard drivers most weeks.  But it should do the following:

  • Make the really long drive more exciting.  If a really long drive is a high risk shot, it'll be more exciting when someone uncorks one.
  • Bring back shotmaking off the tee.  Let's see stingers and squeeze fades again.
  • Bring back shotmaking on approach shots.  Maybe we won't see 4 irons into par 4s, but maybe we'll see 7 irons?

I don't think we'll see different players rising to the top, but I'd love to watch something other than driver/wedge for 14 of 18 holes.

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On 9/21/2020 at 3:37 PM, THEZIPR23 said:

Wouldn't this just make accuracy the same advantage that distance is now? 

Exactly I think if we start punishing one group, we are just going to give an advantage to a different type of golfer or different group.

I thought the cool thing about golf was allowing people to use their unique advantages to play the course how they think best to score as low as possible.I hate the idea of telling players that have power or worked hard to gain power, that its too big of an advantage. We'd never tell one of the master class iron players that "oh you are too accurate, time we do something about that" why do the same to guys who hit it long and use that to combat some of their inaccuracies in other parts of the game. 

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