Balata ball

[Jeb3]

I was cleaning out my closet due to the Corona Virus stay at home mandate and found a dozen Titanium Balata golf balls that have to be at least 22 years old. I gave a few away to friends of mine but wonder how much this type of ball loses in speed and performance due to age? Any ideas?

[Saluki91]

They would lose a significant amount... those rubber windings are lonnnnnnnnnnnng past their use-by date.  I still have a few that are fun to putt with, but that is about it.

[Guest Delete]

On 4/19/2020 at 12:32 PM, Jeb3 said:

I was cleaning out my closet due to the Corona Virus stay at home mandate and found a dozen Titanium Balata golf balls that have to be at least 22 years old. I gave a few away to friends of mine but wonder how much this type of ball loses in speed and performance due to age? Any ideas?

Try it on the next par 3 you play. Just be sure to aim for the back of the green number. 

[nossagog]

I tell the story from a few years back, I was at a garage sale and they had a box with three sleeves of the Top Flight Z-Balata balls for $5.  Had to take them as I used to play them. When we were on spring break with our kids, I took them to a par three course and I used the Z-balata balls.  MAN now I remember why they were fun to play with all the spin you could get on them.   During a regular round during the trip I took one out to play, for one hole. As fun as it was on the par 3 course to see the spin with wedges, the ball went no where with a regular shot, probably about only 80% of regular distance off the driver. Balls were probably 15years old or so.

[RobotDoctor]

I have 7 dozen of these and a dozen Maxfli HT balata balls.  Yes, they have lost compression.  On a solid stuck shot they might go "out of round" on a single shot.  But they are great when I hit it with one of these.  And that is not my whole collection. 

[rlpolo]

WOW .. those are collectors items now !!

[RobotDoctor]

20 hours ago, rlpolo said:

WOW .. those are collectors items now !!

Here is my latest driver that should be home tomorrow.  Probably now the crown jewel of my collection.  I also have another M85W, a 693 set and M09 LFF that were also restored by Dave Wood.  The other M85W has a 2 and 3 wood not refinished with neck numbers.  I have a two 945W drivers and the fairway woods (2-4) of one of those drivers to be restored by Dave Wood next season.  I have a set of M43T (1-4) and a set of Toney Penna TP Specials (1-4) refinished by another club restorer.  Add a M75W driver, a Wood Brothers Texan (made for Gene Sauers), my old Cleveland Classic DG43 gamer from 1990-1992 and a custom made driver made by my former club craftsman.  Years ago I couldn't afford these true cream of the crop classics but they are readily available now.  However, to make them fully restored in the condition of this M85W driver pictured here is not inexpensive.  Dave told me this is one of the best M85Ws he's ever worked on, possibly one of the best ever to come out of MacGregor.  He also said this particular driver is a different level than Ben Crenshaw's gamer of the 80s (the one he won the Masters with in 84) and that this would have been in Ben's bag had he owned it in the early 80s.

To say I am pleased with my small collection is a small understatement. 

 

Edited May 18, 2020 by RobotDoctor

[Firebird]

I found my old golf go bag and in it was 3 dozen Titleist Pro 100 so I gave a dozen to my mate who was at the time on a 2 handicap and asked him play a few round with them and compare them to the Pro V1 he usually hits. Not sure if they had lost any compression but he found that the distances was down 15-18% and spin was up allot particularly with driver. He did love the way the felt though.

 

[BIG STU]

1 hour ago, Firebird said:

I found my old golf go bag and in it was 3 dozen Titleist Pro 100 so I gave a dozen to my mate who was at the time on a 2 handicap and asked him play a few round with them and compare them to the Pro V1 he usually hits. Not sure if they had lost any compression but he found that the distances was down 15-18% and spin was up allot particularly with driver. He did love the way the felt though.

 

It all depends on how and where they were stored as to what the playing condition is. And yes with a modern metal driver they will spin like heck. Also they are not as long as a modern ball. When I play my vintage golf I usually use a modern ball off the tee. From 7 iron in on approach I will use a Balata and putt with them also. Yep I love the feel and spin

[DiscipleofPenick]

I keep a Titleist Professional 100 in my bag as that was my dads ball in his prime.

Take Dead Aim

[Firebird]

On 7/10/2020 at 10:30 AM, BIG STU said:

It all depends on how and where they were stored as to what the playing condition is. And yes with a modern metal driver they will spin like heck. Also they are not as long as a modern ball. When I play my vintage golf I usually use a modern ball off the tee. From 7 iron in on approach I will use a Balata and putt with them also. Yep I love the feel and spin

They were actually kept in a nice cool place so I am guessing they are still in good condition. Hitting them they feel really soft and do not seem to launch of the club or putter face.

[BIG STU]

9 hours ago, Firebird said:

They were actually kept in a nice cool place so I am guessing they are still in good condition. Hitting them they feel really soft and do not seem to launch of the club or putter face.

Yep if you are not used to them they have the marshmallow effect especially a modern putter with a insert. They compress more too and do not pop hot off a face like modern balls do 

[revkev]

Those balata balls come with a built in 20 yards less distance off the tee, guaranteed!  It's what we had to play with up until about 15 years ago so we did and we enjoyed it.  We were also 15 years younger then.

 

I loved the vintage woods -  I was a Tommy Armor PGA wood guy -  it was just a different game - If you could hit one 250 you were a bomber - I think the average drive on tour was under 250 with that equipment quite honestly.  And yet Jack Nicklaus hit one 340 with that equipment on the PGA tournament long driving hole.

[BIG STU]

10 hours ago, BIG STU said:

Yep if you are not used to them they have the marshmallow effect especially a modern putter with a insert. They compress more too and do not pop hot off a face like modern balls do 

Yep I forgot I showed John that lesson first hand---- We were playing at my home club then and John found a real balata ball. This other kid was playing with us and on 17 I showed them about a balata ball. I was putting with a bare balls 68 Tommy Armour Ironmaster that day. I let them putt some with my putter and they both saw what I was talking about. Even though John is a lefty he could hit my putter good enough to understand the feel aspect.

[BIG STU]

4 hours ago, revkev said:

Those balata balls come with a built in 20 yards less distance off the tee, guaranteed!  It's what we had to play with up until about 15 years ago so we did and we enjoyed it.  We were also 15 years younger then.

 

I loved the vintage woods -  I was a Tommy Armor PGA wood guy -  it was just a different game - If you could hit one 250 you were a bomber - I think the average drive on tour was under 250 with that equipment quite honestly.  And yet Jack Nicklaus hit one 340 with that equipment on the PGA tournament long driving hole.

Believe it or not I was a Power Bilt and Toney Penna man. And you are dead on about the yardage. I was a bomber in those days hit it about 270 or so but---- There was no telling what direction it was going though. Now the 1 iron I could hit further than most guys could a Driver. I remember my old man saying one time " If I could hit a 1 iron as straight and long as you do there would not be a driver in my bag" Back then with roll out I hit a 1 iron about 250.  Now days with modern balls and metal drivers I still get the driver out there about 245 or so. I tell people all the time folks my age are not supposed to do that. I tell them if they want a dose of reality let me go to the car and get one of my persimmon drivers and balata ball out.  No takers at my club. With my persimmon and balata I hit it about 215  220. With a modern ball around 230. I remembered one of the guys on my dog fight team ran up on me one day and I was playing vintage. He remarked I was not that much shorter with the persimmon. But for me on hard dry fairways I can get the persimmon to run like it stole something with a modern ball. I told him as much told him let me get out here when it is wet and you will see.  Now irons are a different matter since I play older blades my 150 club is the 6 iron at sea level. Trust me I have that 6 iron set up to hit high and float. Oh yeah I have several sets of hot faced CBs but can absolutely not control them. Yes equipment has changed the game but I do not care I take pleasure in playing my way

[Rickp]

Here is my latest driver that should be home tomorrow.  Probably now the crown jewel of my collection.  I also have another M85W, a 693 set and M09 LFF that were also restored by Dave Wood.  The other M85W has a 2 and 3 wood not refinished with neck numbers.  I have a two 945W drivers and the fairway woods (2-4) of one of those drivers to be restored by Dave Wood next season.  I have a set of M43T (1-4) and a set of Toney Penna TP Specials (1-4) refinished by another club restorer.  Add a M75W driver, a Wood Brothers Texan (made for Gene Sauers), my old Cleveland Classic DG43 gamer from 1990-1992 and a custom made driver made by my former club craftsman.  Years ago I couldn't afford these true cream of the crop classics but they are readily available now.  However, to make them fully restored in the condition of this M85W driver pictured here is not inexpensive.  Dave told me this is one of the best M85Ws he's ever worked on, possibly one of the best ever to come out of MacGregor.  He also said this particular driver is a different level than Ben Crenshaw's gamer of the 80s (the one he won the Masters with in 84) and that this would have been in Ben's bag had he owned it in the early 80s.
To say I am pleased with my small collection is a small understatement. 
 

That’s really nice condition!


Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

[BIG STU]

47 minutes ago, Rickp said:

That’s really nice condition!


Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

Yep Robot has some top notch stuff

[Miboy62]

I like how when you hit one good and straight with the drive how they would climb up, and just drop out of the sky.

[storm319]

10 minutes ago, Miboy62 said:

I like how when you hit one good and straight with the drive how they would climb up, and just drop out of the sky.

Definitely looks cool but this flight is a distance killer. 

[RobotDoctor]

20 hours ago, storm319 said:

Definitely looks cool but this flight is a distance killer. 

Back in the day (1988 into the late 90s/2000) the lack of distance from balata balls was not even a concern.  The reason I played them was control.  If I wanted distance I could have played Pinnacle balls or Top "Rocks".  Back then I worked every iron shot into the greens depending on what the shot needed.  I also worked tee shots to hold fairways.  Distance was sacrificed for absolute ball control and performance.  Of course I had to put a great swing on the ball to accomplish what I wanted.  I went from a 12-14 handicap in 1988 to a 7 or 8 in 1988.  My handicap rose to 12-14 in 1989 due to major swing changes when I played on my college team my last semester in college.  This was to lay down a foundation to become scratch.  I went back to 6-8 handicap into 1990.  I dropped to scratch between 1991 and 1992 due to playing with a group of guys who were really good.  I got tired of losing the Nassaus and skins we played.  Really tired of it.  I also was playing around 100 rounds a year and practicing a lot.  Long story short, the spin and control of a balata ball allowed me to fire at a lot of pins that I would never have tried for with a distance ball.  Back then I did not need a distance boost since I was young and strong.

[MadMex]

On 5/17/2020 at 6:14 PM, RobotDoctor said:

Here is my latest driver that should be home tomorrow.  Probably now the crown jewel of my collection.  I also have another M85W, a 693 set and M09 LFF that were also restored by Dave Wood.  The other M85W has a 2 and 3 wood not refinished with neck numbers.  I have a two 945W drivers and the fairway woods (2-4) of one of those drivers to be restored by Dave Wood next season.  I have a set of M43T (1-4) and a set of Toney Penna TP Specials (1-4) refinished by another club restorer.  Add a M75W driver, a Wood Brothers Texan (made for Gene Sauers), my old Cleveland Classic DG43 gamer from 1990-1992 and a custom made driver made by my former club craftsman.  Years ago I couldn't afford these true cream of the crop classics but they are readily available now.  However, to make them fully restored in the condition of this M85W driver pictured here is not inexpensive.  Dave told me this is one of the best M85Ws he's ever worked on, possibly one of the best ever to come out of MacGregor.  He also said this particular driver is a different level than Ben Crenshaw's gamer of the 80s (the one he won the Masters with in 84) and that this would have been in Ben's bag had he owned it in the early 80s.

To say I am pleased with my small collection is a small understatement. 

 

Your my hero! I still remember the feeling of hitting a flush drive with a persimmon driver (Power-built Citation for me) and a brand new Titleist Balata,,, 

I took my original Citation 5 wood to a Byron gathering, I asked him if it was still worth something, he smiled tapped my shoulder and walked away!!! guess that meant no.

T.J.

[RobotDoctor]

On 7/13/2020 at 10:01 PM, MadMex said:

Your my hero! I still remember the feeling of hitting a flush drive with a persimmon driver (Power-built Citation for me) and a brand new Titleist Balata,,, 

I took my original Citation 5 wood to a Byron gathering, I asked him if it was still worth something, he smiled tapped my shoulder and walked away!!! guess that meant no.

T.J.

 

Lol TJ, not many persimmon woods are worth a lot these days.  It depends on the collector's market.  Remember the Cameron market 15 years ago?    Besides, Vog, and a few more people, are doing what they can to drive up the persimmon wood market, namely Wood Brothers Texan/Australian/All American models as well as the absolute classic 50s MacGregor woods (like the M85W driver I have here).  If I were to put this up for sale I would bet it would go over $1,000 right now, maybe $1,500.  Dave Wood said this was the best M85W driver he's ever seen in the 50+ years of working with persimmon woods.  He said this was a whole level above Ben Crenshaw's M85W he won the Masters with in 1984.  Other 50s MacGregor models that are fetching a decent price are the 693, 945W, M43 and M09 LFF.  I am fortunate that I have excellent woods of these in my collection.

Edited July 15, 2020 by RobotDoctor

[RobotDoctor]

On 7/13/2020 at 10:01 PM, MadMex said:

Your my hero! I still remember the feeling of hitting a flush drive with a persimmon driver (Power-built Citation for me) and a brand new Titleist Balata,,, 

I took my original Citation 5 wood to a Byron gathering, I asked him if it was still worth something, he smiled tapped my shoulder and walked away!!! guess that meant no.

T.J.

Here is my collection of persimmon woods (not showing my 945W EOMs - 2 drivers and 2-4 fairway woods).

 

[MadMex]

On 7/15/2020 at 12:55 PM, RobotDoctor said:

Here is my collection of persimmon woods (not showing my 945W EOMs - 2 drivers and 2-4 fairway woods).

 

I see two drivers and I had at one time and one I always wanted ( that's a wood brothers with the Texas sole plate right?) since I hit ONCE and I crushed it about an incredible 265 yards,,,, 

Had the irons, again, hit in the sweet spot and it was heaven !! 

[BIG STU]

On 7/15/2020 at 3:47 PM, RobotDoctor said:

 

Lol TJ, not many persimmon woods are worth a lot these days.  It depends on the collector's market.  Remember the Cameron market 15 years ago?    Besides, Vog, and a few more people, are doing what they can to drive up the persimmon wood market, namely Wood Brothers Texan/Australian/All American models as well as the absolute classic 50s MacGregor woods (like the M85W driver I have here).  If I were to put this up for sale I would bet it would go over $1,000 right now, maybe $1,500.  Dave Wood said this was the best M85W driver he's ever seen in the 50+ years of working with persimmon woods.  He said this was a whole level above Ben Crenshaw's M85W he won the Masters with in 1984.  Other 50s MacGregor models that are fetching a decent price are the 693, 945W, M43 and M09 LFF.  I am fortunate that I have excellent woods of these in my collection.

Yep going on PGS and the bay the Woods Brothers are fetching good prices. IMHO the LFFs are the unicorn along with a real Penna WW special. 

[RobotDoctor]

On 7/18/2020 at 4:03 PM, MadMex said:

I see two drivers and I had at one time and one I always wanted ( that's a wood brothers with the Texas sole plate right?) since I hit ONCE and I crushed it about an incredible 265 yards,,,, 

Had the irons, again, hit in the sweet spot and it was heaven !! 

Yes, that is a Wood Brothers Texan.  That one was a tour block made for Gene Sauers.  Not sure he ever gamed it but Dave Wood had nice things to say about this one.  I am fortunate that Dave Wood is a friend of mine.

[RobotDoctor]

17 hours ago, BIG STU said:

Yep going on PGS and the bay the Woods Brothers are fetching good prices. IMHO the LFFs are the unicorn along with a real Penna WW special. 

Stu, you are so right.  Wood Brothers woods are gaining in notoriety and value.  LFFs are hard to come by, especially in decent condition.  The WW Special is a rare bird for sure.

I did stumble on a driver on eBay that was purchased for just under $33 including shipping.  The reason many stayed away is because it is a M43T with Tommy Armour stamping on the crown.  Anyone that knows MacGregor woods knows the M43s had a Winged MT stamp, not Tommy Armour.  I saw the potential of this driver and knew the Tommy Armour stamp was authentic.  I looked at the M43T stamp and wasn't sure if that was authentic or just a butchered refinish attempt.  I also didn't care for the face screws as these are wrong and horribly done.  I know a few people that has red brick paper fiber material left, one being Dave Wood. With these issues I thought for the price it was worth it.

I talked to Dave Wood about it and he saw the pictures and confirmed with almost 100% certainty that this driver came from the MacGregor Custom department and said this was a terrific buy, a rare buy.  I told him the price and he was shocked.  I just sent this driver to John Hayes and he's working on it.  Hes replaced the insert with red brick fiber and will score lines and redo the screws with appropriate size and location.  He also found a pristine butterfly soleplate that is the same and is replacing that.  He's replacing the shaft with a M85W two tone leather wrap he has that is in excellent condition, even though this is a M43T (chord grip).  There were some holes drilled out of the bottom to lighten it up, remnants of the terrible restoration job previously done.  John will correct those and this driver will come home stunning.  It turns out this driver is another diamond found in the rough.

 

 

[RobotDoctor]

Here are a few in progress pics of the current restoration by John.

[NRJyzr]

On 7/12/2020 at 9:46 AM, revkev said:

Those balata balls come with a built in 20 yards less distance off the tee, guaranteed!  It's what we had to play with up until about 15 years ago so we did and we enjoyed it.  We were also 15 years younger then.

 

I loved the vintage woods -  I was a Tommy Armor PGA wood guy -  it was just a different game - If you could hit one 250 you were a bomber - I think the average drive on tour was under 250 with that equipment quite honestly.  And yet Jack Nicklaus hit one 340 with that equipment on the PGA tournament long driving hole.

 

No, they're not that much shorter, if you can account for the increased spin thru judicious application of lower spin equipment.

A few years ago, I managed to score a couple dozen HT-100s that were apparently relatively recently manufactured somewhere in Asia.  I compared them to balls i was playing at the time, like TM TP Black, or Cally Chrome+, side by side on the course, as well as over several rounds.  As long as I used a low spin driver, there was little difference between the HT and the solid ball I was playing.  

It's maybe half a club.  Which is what is seen in the Tour's driving distance stat.

20 years later, big difference. 

Edited July 20, 2020 by NRJyzr

[MadMex]

1 hour ago, RobotDoctor said:

Stu, you are so right.  Wood Brothers woods are gaining in notoriety and value.  LFFs are hard to come by, especially in decent condition.  The WW Special is a rare bird for sure.

I did stumble on a driver on eBay that was purchased for just under $33 including shipping.  The reason many stayed away is because it is a M43T with Tommy Armour stamping on the crown.  Anyone that knows MacGregor woods knows the M43s had a Winged MT stamp, not Tommy Armour.  I saw the potential of this driver and knew the Tommy Armour stamp was authentic.  I looked at the M43T stamp and wasn't sure if that was authentic or just a butchered refinish attempt.  I also didn't care for the face screws as these are wrong and horribly done.  I know a few people that has red brick paper fiber material left, one being Dave Wood. With these issues I thought for the price it was worth it.

I talked to Dave Wood about it and he saw the pictures and confirmed with almost 100% certainty that this driver came from the MacGregor Custom department and said this was a terrific buy, a rare buy.  I told him the price and he was shocked.  I just sent this driver to John Hayes and he's working on it.  Hes replaced the insert with red brick fiber and will score lines and redo the screws with appropriate size and location.  He also found a pristine butterfly soleplate that is the same and is replacing that.  He's replacing the shaft with a M85W two tone leather wrap he has that is in excellent condition, even though this is a M43T (chord grip).  There were some holes drilled out of the bottom to lighten it up, remnants of the terrible restoration job previously done.  John will correct those and this driver will come home stunning.  It turns out this driver is another diamond found in the rough.

 

 

That's a thing of beauty right there !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I had a laminate 3 wood, think it was a Tommy Armor ?!?! Anyway, it was my "It's the equipment's fault club" which I banged and threw after a bad shot. Friend noticed after I skanked a shot on a par 3, I walked back to my cart, grabbed that 3 wood and banged it on the ground, he asked why I did not bang the iron I had used, I told him they were too expensive. Well, that 3 wood was thrown , banged by several of USAF's best F4D mechanics, it was taped, epoxied, glued, so many times different ways, should have kept it.