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Mizuno Fitting Cart Head - Conforming?

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I  have an old Fli Hi Forged fitting cart head with a screw in the back of the hosel.

Is there an ROG issue with using this head if I use epoxy to affix it to a shaft and remove the screw?

Thanks!

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I  have an old Fli Hi Forged fitting cart head with a screw in the back of the hosel.
Is there an ROG issue with using this head if I use epoxy to affix it to a shaft and remove the screw?
Thanks!

It should be the stock clubhead with a fitting adapter. Shouldn’t be against the rules to put a shaft into the club and play it.

Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* with UST Proforce V2
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15* set  w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 816H1 19* set at 18* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  21*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
               :titelist-small: 915H 24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
Irons:      :srixon-small: 765 6-AW with KBS Tour shafts
Wedge:  :cleveland-small: 588 54-14, 58-12
Putter:  :odyssey-small: Ten S      Backups:  :bobby-grace-1: 6330,   :EVNROLL: ER2.2,  

 

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

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On 4/20/2020 at 1:44 PM, Saluki91 said:

I  have an old Fli Hi Forged fitting cart head with a screw in the back of the hosel.

Is there an ROG issue with using this head if I use epoxy to affix it to a shaft and remove the screw?

Thanks!

If you create a permanent epoxy bond that can be loosened only by using heat, there should not be any problem with club conformity whatsoever.

Check R&A's The Official Rules of Equipment, section 2: Conformance of clubs, article 2.1a, paragraph (iii):

(iii)  All Parts must be Fixed

This clause means that no part of the golf club should be designed to move, nor should it be promoted as doing so.  Once assembled, all parts of the club which are bonded must be bonded such that they require heat to loosen (see Section 1b below for clubs which are designed to be adjustable).


WITB: :titelist-small: TS2, 9,5°, Fujikura Ventus Blue 6S

Fairway::taylormade-small: M5 15°, Fujikura Ventus Red 7S

Irons: :srixon-small: Z U65, 3 iron (20°), Mitsubishi Tensei CK Pro White Hybrid 90S; :srixon-small: Z U65, 4 iron (23°); :srixon-small: Z565, 5-PW, Nippon Modus 105S,

Wedges: :cleveland-small: RTX-3, 50°/10° Nippon Modus 105S, 56°/11°, 62°/8°, Nippon Modus 115 Wedge

Putter: :cleveland-small: TFI 2135 8.0, 35''

Ball: INESIS Tour 900

On the naughty bench:

:titelist-small: 818 H1 (20°) Tensei AV Blue 70S, 40,5''

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1 hour ago, Calvo90 said:

If you create a permanent epoxy bond that can be loosened only by using heat, there should not be any problem with club conformity whatsoever.

Check R&A's The Official Rules of Equipment, section 2: Conformance of clubs, article 2.1a, paragraph (iii):

(iii)  All Parts must be Fixed

This clause means that no part of the golf club should be designed to move, nor should it be promoted as doing so.  Once assembled, all parts of the club which are bonded must be bonded such that they require heat to loosen (see Section 1b below for clubs which are designed to be adjustable).

When I read the referenced Section 1b, I'd say that this covers something like the OP's clubhead.  The head is designed to be adjusted (by using different shafts), the head is unusable when the head isn't tightly fastened to the shaft, and "adjustment" such as installing a different shaft requires the use of a special tool.  I'd say the clubhead is almost certainly conforming.  However, if you want to use something like this in competition, you'd be smart to double-check with the Committee before putting it into play.


:titelist-small: Irons Titleist AP2 714, KBS Tour S, 3 flat

:callaway-small: Rogue SubZero, GD YS-Six X

:vokey-small: 52, 56, and 60 wedges

:ping-small: B60 G5i putter

Right handed

Reston, Virginia

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It's non-conforming. Only heads that are submitted to the ruling bodies for appraisal can be passed as conforming - ie clubs that are normally put into play. Since fitting cart heads are not (and never were) intended to be used in play and are usually of a completely different design to that submitted to the ruling bodies, they are almost always deemed as non-conforming.

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It's non-conforming. Only heads that are submitted to the ruling bodies for appraisal can be passed as conforming - ie clubs that are normally put into play. Since fitting cart heads are not (and never were) intended to be used in play and are usually of a completely different design to that submitted to the ruling bodies, they are almost always deemed as non-conforming.

Won’t that depend on the mechanism used to change shafts? If that device is removable and you can insert a shaft just like you would a regular clubhead, that shouldn’t be Non confirming.
If the clubhead has the fitting portion built in and isn’t removable then I would agree

Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* with UST Proforce V2
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15* set  w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 816H1 19* set at 18* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  21*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
               :titelist-small: 915H 24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
Irons:      :srixon-small: 765 6-AW with KBS Tour shafts
Wedge:  :cleveland-small: 588 54-14, 58-12
Putter:  :odyssey-small: Ten S      Backups:  :bobby-grace-1: 6330,   :EVNROLL: ER2.2,  

 

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, cnosil said:


Won’t that depend on the mechanism used to change shafts? If that device is removable and you can insert a shaft just like you would a regular clubhead, that shouldn’t be Non confirming.
If the clubhead has the fitting portion built in and isn’t removable then I would agree

I believe the OP stated that the head was an old Fli Hi - which were stick and glue heads in "normal" form. The same applies to any head that isn't normally removable for shaft fitting or similar such as most irons and older woods etc. If the fitting cart version isn't the same as the retail version, you can normal bet that the fitting head will be non-conforming.

I should add - even the markings to the head make a difference. Fitting cart irons with +1" or 1degree upright or something similar stamped on them are equally non-conforming because they are not the same in design , appearance and specification as those submitted for approval. 

The same applies to balls - even that you buy as conforming must match exactly to that submitted to the ruling body. If anyone has a long enough memory, Greg Norman fell foul of this rule when one of his Maxfli XS prototype balls failed to match the design submitted, even though it was identical in every other way.

Edited by jaskanski
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I believe the OP stated that the head was an old Fli Hi - which were stick and glue heads in "normal" form. The same applies to any head that isn't normally removable for shaft fitting or similar such as most irons and older woods etc. If the fitting cart version isn't the same as the retail version, you can normal bet that the fitting head will be non-conforming.

I think we are agreeing, I would like to see a picture of the clubhead to determine if the shaft attachment in the head something that was glued in or an actual part of the head.

 

For example I could take any head and put in a club connex system in the head to allow shaft swapping but could trim I’ve the connector and install a shaft.


Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* with UST Proforce V2
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15* set  w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 816H1 19* set at 18* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  21*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
               :titelist-small: 915H 24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
Irons:      :srixon-small: 765 6-AW with KBS Tour shafts
Wedge:  :cleveland-small: 588 54-14, 58-12
Putter:  :odyssey-small: Ten S      Backups:  :bobby-grace-1: 6330,   :EVNROLL: ER2.2,  

 

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

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1 hour ago, jaskanski said:

It's non-conforming. Only heads that are submitted to the ruling bodies for appraisal can be passed as conforming - ie clubs that are normally put into play. Since fitting cart heads are not (and never were) intended to be used in play and are usually of a completely different design to that submitted to the ruling bodies, they are almost always deemed as non-conforming.

As I understand it, conforming means that it is in accordance with the rules.  Submitting a club for review is a separate process, getting a judgement before the club is ever taken to a course.  A club can certainly satisfy the requirements of the rules without ever being submitted.  Now whether a Committee will accept a club that isn't on the conforming list, I don't know, but depending on the level of the competition, they certainly could.  They can read the rules about the requirements for the club, and make their own judgement.


:titelist-small: Irons Titleist AP2 714, KBS Tour S, 3 flat

:callaway-small: Rogue SubZero, GD YS-Six X

:vokey-small: 52, 56, and 60 wedges

:ping-small: B60 G5i putter

Right handed

Reston, Virginia

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From a tour Perspective, if specific variation of a club isn't on the USGA conforming list, it is illegal for tournament play. 

The head from a fitting cart would be considered a variation, but it would not be something that is on the USGA list and thus it is illegal for tournament play 


In my :mizuno-small: BR-D4 Stand Bag

:ping-small: G410 Plus Ping 9* VA Nemesys 65FIVE
:ping-small: G410 LST 14.5* VA Vylyn 75FIVE
:titelist-small: 818 H2 20* Tour AD DI 85X
:mizuno-small: MP20 HMB 4 Tour AD 95X
:mizuno-small: JPX 919 Tour 5-PW Oban CT 115 X(-)
:titelist-small: Vokey SM7 49 F - 54 S - 59 D
:mizuno-small: M Craft II
:bridgestone-small: Tour B X
 
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2 minutes ago, jlukes said:

From a tour Perspective, if specific variation of a club isn't on the USGA conforming list, it is illegal for tournament play. 

The head from a fitting cart would be considered a variation, but it would not be something that is on the USGA list and thus it is illegal for tournament play 

I have no doubt about this, but this is a Tour rule, not a Rule of Golf issue.  The Tour puts the burden for deciding what meets the requirements of the rules onto someone else, and I don't blame them.  But the requirements of the rules aren't all that complex (with a few exceptions), they're written in plain English, so a competent person could examine a club and be able to decide with reasonable accuracy whether that club conforms to the Rules.


:titelist-small: Irons Titleist AP2 714, KBS Tour S, 3 flat

:callaway-small: Rogue SubZero, GD YS-Six X

:vokey-small: 52, 56, and 60 wedges

:ping-small: B60 G5i putter

Right handed

Reston, Virginia

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From a tour Perspective, if specific variation of a club isn't on the USGA conforming list, it is illegal for tournament play. 
The head from a fitting cart would be considered a variation, but it would not be something that is on the USGA list and thus it is illegal for tournament play 

Why do you think the head on a fitting cart would be different without seeing the head?

Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* with UST Proforce V2
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15* set  w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 816H1 19* set at 18* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  21*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
               :titelist-small: 915H 24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
Irons:      :srixon-small: 765 6-AW with KBS Tour shafts
Wedge:  :cleveland-small: 588 54-14, 58-12
Putter:  :odyssey-small: Ten S      Backups:  :bobby-grace-1: 6330,   :EVNROLL: ER2.2,  

 

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

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17 minutes ago, cnosil said:


Why do you think the head on a fitting cart would be different without seeing the head?

Because it is different. It has a bore through hosel the allows for a screw to connect to an interchangeable shaft system. That's just how iron heads on fitting carts are. 


In my :mizuno-small: BR-D4 Stand Bag

:ping-small: G410 Plus Ping 9* VA Nemesys 65FIVE
:ping-small: G410 LST 14.5* VA Vylyn 75FIVE
:titelist-small: 818 H2 20* Tour AD DI 85X
:mizuno-small: MP20 HMB 4 Tour AD 95X
:mizuno-small: JPX 919 Tour 5-PW Oban CT 115 X(-)
:titelist-small: Vokey SM7 49 F - 54 S - 59 D
:mizuno-small: M Craft II
:bridgestone-small: Tour B X
 
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Initial Driver Speed on Provided Monitor: 109 MPH
 

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5 minutes ago, jlukes said:

Because it is different. It has a bore through hosel the allows for a screw to connect to an interchangeable shaft system. That's just how iron heads on fitting carts are. 

But is there something about that clubhead that makes it non-conforming, based on the Rules?  For reference, you can find them here:

https://www.usga.org/equipment-standards/equipment-rules-2019/equipment-rules/equipment-rules.html

I understand that those specific heads were not submitted for inclusion on the USGA list of conforming clubs, but is there some reason that they would NOT be approved if submitted?  The through-bore hosel and screw connection is very similar to that used for (conforming) adjustable wood heads.  


:titelist-small: Irons Titleist AP2 714, KBS Tour S, 3 flat

:callaway-small: Rogue SubZero, GD YS-Six X

:vokey-small: 52, 56, and 60 wedges

:ping-small: B60 G5i putter

Right handed

Reston, Virginia

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1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

But is there something about that clubhead that makes it non-conforming, based on the Rules?  For reference, you can find them here:

https://www.usga.org/equipment-standards/equipment-rules-2019/equipment-rules/equipment-rules.html

I understand that those specific heads were not submitted for inclusion on the USGA list of conforming clubs, but is there some reason that they would NOT be approved if submitted?  The through-bore hosel and screw connection is very similar to that used for (conforming) adjustable wood heads.  

Not saying it wouldn't be approved if submitted, but it is not currently approved and therefore technically not legal.

 


In my :mizuno-small: BR-D4 Stand Bag

:ping-small: G410 Plus Ping 9* VA Nemesys 65FIVE
:ping-small: G410 LST 14.5* VA Vylyn 75FIVE
:titelist-small: 818 H2 20* Tour AD DI 85X
:mizuno-small: MP20 HMB 4 Tour AD 95X
:mizuno-small: JPX 919 Tour 5-PW Oban CT 115 X(-)
:titelist-small: Vokey SM7 49 F - 54 S - 59 D
:mizuno-small: M Craft II
:bridgestone-small: Tour B X
 
SuperSpeed Forum Tester
Initial Driver Speed on Provided Monitor: 109 MPH
 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, jlukes said:

Not saying it wouldn't be approved if submitted, but it is not currently approved and therefore technically not legal.

Did you read Supplementary Paper A?  An official may make a determination, valid for the duration of a round or a competition, to allow the use of a club that is not on the USGA conforming list.  There is not any requirement anywhere that I can find that says that a club MUST be reviewed and approved by the USGA prior to its use.  If you can find such a requirement, either in the Rules of Golf or in the Equipment Rules, I will happily admit that I am wrong.  As I read it, the Equipment Rules strongly recommend that clubs be submitted for approval and inclusion on its list, but also offers a procedure to allow a previously unapproved but conforming club to be used in a competition.  

Edited by DaveP043

:titelist-small: Irons Titleist AP2 714, KBS Tour S, 3 flat

:callaway-small: Rogue SubZero, GD YS-Six X

:vokey-small: 52, 56, and 60 wedges

:ping-small: B60 G5i putter

Right handed

Reston, Virginia

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1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

Did you read Supplementary Paper A?  An official may make a determination, valid for the duration of a round or a competition, to allow the use of a club that is not on the USGA conforming list.  There is not any requirement anywhere that I can find that says that a club MUST be reviewed and approved by the USGA prior to its use.  If you can find such a requirement, either in the Rules of Golf or in the Equipment Rules, I will happily admit that I am wrong.  As I read it, the Equipment Rules strongly recommend that clubs be submitted for approval and inclusion on its list, but also offers a procedure to allow a previously unapproved but conforming club to be used in a competition.  

I doubt this dude has a USGA official at his local club 


In my :mizuno-small: BR-D4 Stand Bag

:ping-small: G410 Plus Ping 9* VA Nemesys 65FIVE
:ping-small: G410 LST 14.5* VA Vylyn 75FIVE
:titelist-small: 818 H2 20* Tour AD DI 85X
:mizuno-small: MP20 HMB 4 Tour AD 95X
:mizuno-small: JPX 919 Tour 5-PW Oban CT 115 X(-)
:titelist-small: Vokey SM7 49 F - 54 S - 59 D
:mizuno-small: M Craft II
:bridgestone-small: Tour B X
 
SuperSpeed Forum Tester
Initial Driver Speed on Provided Monitor: 109 MPH
 

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12 hours ago, jlukes said:

I doubt this dude has a USGA official at his local club 

Perhaps you chose not to read the source I cited.  An official at the competition can make the provisional judgement, it doesn't require a "USGA official". 

But in the interest of using actual facts, I poked around a bit more.  Specifically, I went to the webpage for the Conforming Lists, and to the Model Local Rules concerning Equipment.  It was interesting, the Model Local Rules G-1 and G-3 require a player to use Driver Heads and Golf Balls on the respective conforming lists.  I've never played in an event for which either of these were in effect, I anticipate that these are used primarily for higher-level competitions.  Model Local Rule G-2 requires the use of clubs whose grooves comply with the 2010 Rule change, and references the Informational Data Base for clubs with 2010-conforming grooves.  However, that specific Local Rule is typically used for very high-level events, the 2010 groove rules aren't scheduled to be enforced for the rest of golf until 2024.  Of note is that "the list" only evaluates grooves.  Got it?  Clubs must comply with the Equipment Rules at all times, but its only by Local Rule that a club must be on "the list" to be acceptable.

My conclusion for the OP, I believe your clubhead is conforming, whether you used the screw-fitting to attach it to the shaft for the duration of a round, or whether you permanently affix it with epoxy.  And again, I'm happy to reconsider my opinion if someone can find something in the Rules that contradicts what I've said.

 

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:titelist-small: Irons Titleist AP2 714, KBS Tour S, 3 flat

:callaway-small: Rogue SubZero, GD YS-Six X

:vokey-small: 52, 56, and 60 wedges

:ping-small: B60 G5i putter

Right handed

Reston, Virginia

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On 4/22/2020 at 9:15 AM, Calvo90 said:

If you create a permanent epoxy bond that can be loosened only by using heat, there should not be any problem with club conformity whatsoever.

Check R&A's The Official Rules of Equipment, section 2: Conformance of clubs, article 2.1a, paragraph (iii):

(iii)  All Parts must be Fixed

This clause means that no part of the golf club should be designed to move, nor should it be promoted as doing so.  Once assembled, all parts of the club which are bonded must be bonded such that they require heat to loosen (see Section 1b below for clubs which are designed to be adjustable).

Thanks... will note that for future impulse buys.  ; - )

My OCD prevailed, and I spent the extra $40 on a new-in-plastic head (not a fitting cart head).

 

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