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Stronger Lofts - is this a Good or Bad Thing


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3 hours ago, Pingistheanser said:

Heres an interesting watch.  I think that one thing that people forget when it comes to jacked lofts is that its not so much that the newer clubs are longer.  Theyre actually pretty comparabe on center strikes.  The real advantage comes in when you miss the center of the clubface.  The old clubs penalized you much more when you missed the middle.  With new  clubs, especially the ones with jacked lofts, you can be all over the clubface and still get pretty good ballflight.

Yea thats two seperate things- moi and forgiveness doesnt have to be married to strong lofts

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12 hours ago, Pingistheanser said:

and I still think youre wrong about that.  Distance matters with ALL clubs, as long as you can control it.

I corrected my statement days ago. The thread is about more distance with irons so I thought it was understood but to be more accurate:
MORE distance only matters with your driver (is what I meant). For all your other clubs knowing distance and gaps is important obviously, MORE distance is not. You don’t NEED to hit your 7 iron further, just use a 6 iron...

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55 minutes ago, Middler said:

I corrected my statement days ago. The thread is about more distance with irons so I thought it was understood but to be more accurate:
MORE distance only matters with your driver (is what I meant). For all your other clubs knowing distance and gaps is important obviously, MORE distance is not. You don’t NEED to hit your 7 iron further, just use a 6 iron...

But I do want to hit my 7i further as I do my 4,5,6,8,9,pw. If I can consistently hit my current 8i the same I’m getting from my 7i and my 7i as my current 6i and so on then it’s a good thing as I have an easier club to hit into greens.

Find me an amateur that would not like to hit their current irons further. 

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13 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

But I do want to hit my 7i further as I do my 4,5,6,8,9,pw. If I can consistently hit my current 8i the same I’m getting from my 7i and my 7i as my current 6i and so on then it’s a good thing as I have an easier club to hit into greens.

Find me an amateur that would not like to hit their current irons further. 

Why? If you’re faced with a 150 yard approach, all you need to know is which club do YOU hit 150 yards. What’s stamped on the sole doesn’t change that one iota. If it’s stamped with an “8” in your set and it’s the same loft as a “7” in my set, one is not “easier to hit” than the other assuming same design. In a couple years when manufacturers are stamping “9” on the sole of their iron with the same loft, are you going to want that then? They’re betting you will. And you won’t hit it further, you’ll just be able to say I hit my “9”...

 

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12 minutes ago, Middler said:

Why? If you’re faced with a 150 yard approach, all you need to know is which club do YOU hit 150 yards. What’s stamped on the sole doesn’t change that one iota. If it’s stamped with an “8” in your set and it’s the same loft as a “7” in my set, one is not “easier to hit” than the other assuming same design. In a couple years when manufacturers are stamping “9” on the sole of their iron with the same loft, are you going to want that then? They’re betting you will. And you won’t hit it further, you’ll just be able to say I hit my “9”...

 

You should re-read my comment. You are bringing lofts and numbers stamped to a comment that talked about current irons both for my case as well as finding an amateur that doesn’t want more distance with their current irons.

you said nobody NEEDS to hit their irons further. What one needs isn’t up to you to determine and everyone wants more distance to include with their current clubs. It’s why superspeed is successful.

 

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At the end of the day this is about the individual consumer taking responsibility for their $1K purchase, isn't it? 

If an OEM puts out a 3-page ad in Golf Digest about their sticks being a full club longer, and John Doe goes in and buys them based on that, or even hits them and decides that yes, they are a club longer, and makes his purchase based on that alone without any further research, has he proven to be susceptible to a good ad?  Maybe.  Deceived?  I don't think so.  The true loft of a club, any club, isn't exactly hard to find.  That spin rates, launch angle, descent angle, etc., all matter in determining a good fit and will help you hit more GIR and possibly lower your scores isn't hard to figure out either.  Anybody can spend some time on the internet and figure that out.

I'm certain there are big box stores and club fitters that let over-eager customers make purchases without explaining all of these variables, and that maybe distance isn't the only factor they should be concerned with. But, my money, my clubs, my game....MY responsibility to be an educated consumer.

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1 hour ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

You should re-read my comment. You are bringing lofts and numbers stamped to a comment that talked about current irons both for my case as well as finding an amateur that doesn’t want more distance with their current irons.

you said nobody NEEDS to hit their irons further. What one needs isn’t up to you to determine and everyone wants more distance to include with their current clubs. It’s why superspeed is successful.

 

No one here can “determine” anything for “everyone” here, we’re almost all anonymous strangers - I can’t so I’m not sure why you suggest I can or mean to. It’s my POV, with my supporting thoughts. You’re free to believe otherwise. And while you’re accusing me of speaking for everyone, all amateurs don’t want more distance with their irons as you say. They’re most interested in knowing how far each one goes consistently. Let’s agree to disagree already. Some players don’t want more distance from irons, especially when it’s only a now meaningless number stamped on the sole, and they realize more distance is only of obvious value with a driver.

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3 minutes ago, Middler said:

We agree to disagree. Some players don’t want more distance from irons and they realize more distance is only of value with a driver.

That would be very few in my experience to include the pros. It’s about consistency in the distance. It may not be important to some but hitting clubs further like DJ swapping hydro s for more loft to take distance off in Hawaii. He used a club that fit the need for that course. 
 

Please give me the name of a golfer that doesn’t want more distance and their reason for that?

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5 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Please give me the name of a golfer that doesn’t want more distance and their reason for that?

OK, give it a rest....

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2 minutes ago, Middler said:

OK, give it a rest....

It’s a simple question. You say people don’t want more distance. Tell me who and why? If you can’t say you can’t but dont make a claim and get upset when someone ask you to back it up.

PGA tour pros look for more distance with all their clubs. Francesco Molinari changed his without routine specifically for that goal. So o find it hard to believe that no amateur would tournament down more distance when pros are looking for it 

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Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

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2 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

But I do want to hit my 7i further as I do my 4,5,6,8,9,pw. If I can consistently hit my current 8i the same I’m getting from my 7i and my 7i as my current 6i and so on then it’s a good thing as I have an easier club to hit into greens.

Find me an amateur that would not like to hit their current irons further. 

There is one way to do that and thats bagging a full set of hi cor thin faced hot irons. Lofts are simply not giving you anything extra. If thats what you feel you need go ahead, but mid to low cappers actually get worse with these type clubs and MGS has data to prove it.

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28 minutes ago, Moose4282 said:

There is one way to do that and thats bagging a full set of hi cor thin faced hot irons. Lofts are simply not giving you anything extra. If thats what you feel you need go ahead, but mid to low cappers actually get worse with these type clubs and MGS has data to prove it.

My comment wasn’t about lofts or hot faces. I was replying to a comment about distance. I’m saying that for me if I was able to hit my current 8i another 10-12 yards which would equal the distance of my 7i I wouldn’t turn that away and the second part of my comment was referring to any amateur and their current set wouldn’t mind have extra distance as well, as long as it was consistent. 
 

i can hit my 8i further if I went after it but the consistency in strike and distance each time may not be there.

There are low capper with p790s, g series irons in their bags with no issues. I knew a guy that was around a 3 hdcp that play the old Cleveland hi bore irons. The notion that low or mid cappers don’t benefit or wouldn’t use hot faced or forgiving irons is silly. I hover between an 8 and 10 hdcp and played p790 for the first year they came out. Only reason I got rid of them was to play Pxg 

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Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

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13 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

My comment wasn’t about lofts or hot faces. I was replying to a comment about distance. I’m saying that for me if I was able to hit my current 8i another 10-12 yards which would equal the distance of my 7i I wouldn’t turn that away and the second part of my comment was referring to any amateur and their current set wouldn’t mind have extra distance as well, as long as it was consistent. 
 

i can hit my 8i further if I went after it but the consistency in strike and distance each time may not be there.

There are low capper with p790s, g series irons in their bags with no issues. I knew a guy that was around a 3 hdcp that play the old Cleveland hi bore irons. The notion that low or mid cappers don’t benefit or wouldn’t use hot faced or forgiving irons is silly. I hover between an 8 and 10 hdcp and played p790 for the first year they came out. Only reason I got rid of them was to play Pxg 

It is certainly possible to be a lo capper and not be a good ball striker. Ive see rounds with 4 greens in regulation and the score was still like even par. So perhaps there are some low cappers who may benefit from a more forgiving iron. On the flipside, they may be doing themselves a disservice, By not playing something more demanding which can lead to better striking. Maybe they wont ever possess the talent to do that, who knows for sure.  Does everyone want more distance- well sure- how you get it is another thing. What the other poster  was eluding to was accuracy is priority number 1 when it comes to irons. The equipment that produces faster ball speeds and lower spin rates will almost always be less consistent to any decent ball striker.

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2 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

It’s a simple question. You say people don’t want more distance. Tell me who and why? If you can’t say you can’t but dont make a claim and get upset when someone ask you to back it up.

PGA tour pros look for more distance with all their clubs. Francesco Molinari changed his without routine specifically for that goal. So o find it hard to believe that no amateur would tournament down more distance when pros are looking for it 

I'm not at all upset. What makes you think anyone has to be upset if we disagree? Relax, we disagree, that's OK. There have been plenty of people who oppose loft jacking - they appear on threads regularly on any golf forum, though I readily admit there are more buyers who are on board with loft jacking judging by OEM iron sales. I am not saying there's one right answer, you're the one insisting EVERYONE wants more distance from their irons. If everyone wanted the longest irons possible, why does every OEM offer a variety of sets - with a variety of lofts?

Molinari originally signed with Callaway after three years as a free agent, and he chose Apex MB's - very traditional lofts and certainly not a distance choice from his previous Nike or TM cavity backs. It appears he's now switched to Apex Pro Forged cavity back, also with traditional lofts. I haven't followed Molinari but what I read suggests he wanted a cavity back iron as that's what he'd previous won with TM P750 CB. If he wanted more distance, almost every other iron Callaway offers would have given him more (loft jacked) distance.

But really, this is nonsense, my last post on this thread. You're welcome to have the last word and claim a false victory where there's no "right answer."

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52 minutes ago, Moose4282 said:

 On the flipside, they may be doing themselves a disservice, By not playing something more demanding which can lead to better striking. 

I've seen this claim before, that more demanding clubs will somehow make you a better ballstriker.  I've just never seen it proven, and don't really believe it.  Just because the ball feels and performs worse on mis-hits doesn't make you better, it just makes your hands hurt and your scores higher.  Improved ballstriking comes from making better swings, either from practicing and grooving your flaws, or working to eliminate those flaws.

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1 hour ago, Middler said:

I'm not at all upset. What makes you think anyone has to be upset if we disagree? Relax, we disagree, that's OK. There have been plenty of people who oppose loft jacking - they appear on threads regularly on any golf forum, though I readily admit there are more buyers who are on board with loft jacking judging by OEM iron sales. I am not saying there's one right answer, you're the one insisting EVERYONE wants more distance from their irons. If everyone wanted the longest irons possible, why does every OEM offer a variety of sets - with a variety of lofts?

Molinari originally signed with Callaway after three years as a free agent, and he chose Apex MB's - very traditional lofts and certainly not a distance choice from his previous Nike or TM cavity backs. It appears he's now switched to Apex Pro Forged cavity back, also with traditional lofts. I haven't followed Molinari but what I read suggests he wanted a cavity back iron as that's what he'd previous won with TM P750 CB. If he wanted more distance, almost every other iron Callaway offers would have given him more (loft jacked) distance.

But really, this is nonsense, my last post on this thread. You're welcome to have the last word and claim a false victory where there's no "right answer."

https://www.callawaygolf.com/golf-clubs/iron-sets/irons-2019-apex-pro.html#product-specs

I’m not saying everyone want more distance I’m arguing the comments that people don’t need or want it. I’ve yet to meet an amateur who says they hit it far enough and that includes guys that are long already.

Yes molinarin could find more distance with a different set of irons but he’s looking for distance in all clubs so a training program that helps him add speed throughout the bag is better than replacing  his preferred look and lofts with something that doesn’t fit his eye and or ball flight. 

not looking for a victory or the last word, if I make a claim and someone ask me to back it up I do and if I’m wrong I have no problem saying I’m wrong. Just weird people get upset when people ask for something to help explain their statements.

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3 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

I've seen this claim before, that more demanding clubs will somehow make you a better ballstriker.  I've just never seen it proven, and don't really believe it.  Just because the ball feels and performs worse on mis-hits doesn't make you better, it just makes your hands hurt and your scores higher.  Improved ballstriking comes from making better swings, either from practicing and grooving your flaws, or working to eliminate those flaws.

I cant “prove” it but ive experienced it. When i first got into golf, i had one of my grrat grandfathers OLD bladed 6 iron laying around my house after he passed. Started taking it out as a kid, and if you have ever tried to hit a club that old... it will literally make you strike it well or just quite there wasn't really any in between. When my dad purchased my first set, big chunky cavities- they were sooo easy to hit! Im convinced that little blade improved my hand eye coordination. Feel is another aspect. Some of those big forgiving cavities mask strike so well. Ive seen it before where someone is constantly hitting it out in the toe but couldnt really tell. They are leaving yards and performance on the table.

 

edit: i will add this concept is used in other sports as well, unsure of the name..the cuban and dominican baseball baseball players hitting small rocks with a stick to fine tune hand eye coordination 

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40 minutes ago, Moose4282 said:

For the last time loft jacking isnt magically giving you distance... its the apperance of distance.  Anyone who says otherwise Is not using their thinking cap well.

weird you were bowing out of the thread. 

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Well... let's just all bow out of this discussion just like the really weird folks at WRX did last fall.  Everyone has made their points over and over again, ad nauseam.  Nobody is right; everyone is wrong, but it really doesn't matter to the people that want to play golf instead of arguing about something that doesn't really matter.  We all play what we like, and that usually means what allows us to play our best.

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14 hours ago, Moose4282 said:

I cant “prove” it but ive experienced it. When i first got into golf, i had one of my grrat grandfathers OLD bladed 6 iron laying around my house after he passed. Started taking it out as a kid, and if you have ever tried to hit a club that old... it will literally make you strike it well or just quite there wasn't really any in between.

It may sound weird to some younger players, but when I started to play, we didn't have anything other than "bladed" irons.  And all those blades did was sting my hands when I hit a shot off-center.  My improvement in ball-striking over the years has come along at the same time as I have bought clubs with more game improvement features.  It has also come at the same time as I've taken lessons and increased my practice time.  I can't prove which of those factors has caused the improvement, maybe not either one, but I am comfortable that I didn't just buy some game with different (and slightly more forgiving) clubs.

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  • 2 weeks later...

This has been done quite a few times on YouTube by several different channels, this is just the latest one I’ve seen. They go to great lengths to deliver the club at the same speed and dynamic loft. However I know it won’t change anyone’s already established beliefs regarding club tech, loft and distances.

 

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I really do not care what the bottom of the club says, 6 iron, 7 iron etc.  What I care about is that the clubs go a specific distance between each club such as 10 yards apart.  Wish companies  would do away with 8 iron, 9 iron, PW , GW etc and just use the loft  of each such as 60, 56, 52, 48, 42, etc.  

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I find it interesting that a couple things are happening with all this loft jacking:

  1. Clubs of the same loft are getting shorter. 3i is now 5i length = 1 inch shorter
  2. Retail launch monitor battles have turned into a distance battle with a 7 on them that don't perform like 7s of old. 

The aging golfer's ego to keep up with the younger, stronger, quicker, more agile golfer makes it a no brainier that marketing to these guys with loft jacked clubs makes sense. 

Who hasn't watched a PGA player hit a 7 iron and not think to themselves - that's the same club, one club less, or 2 clubs less than what I play for the same yardage. So, vanity plays into the illusion that when a player buys new sticks that it will get them closer to competing with the pros. 

The reality of shorter club lengths being easier to find the sweet spot is undeniable (one point for single length irons in the longer clubs). Loft jacking is making clubs shorter.

The thinner, faster face design does have more pop that could launch the ball too high if the loft was not jacked. Is it possible that old tech of game improvement irons having lower CG combined with hot faces is actually counter productive without increasing loft? My guess is that standard lofts mixed with hot faces will require higher CG to keep the ball in the right launch window. 

Lastly, I will say this. Speed is the largest contributing factor to generate height in golf. Lower CG, good impact, and loft help but if there isn't speed then the ball just isn't getting up. The goal of the aging golfer should be trying to maintain as much speed as possible. 

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Admittedly I didn't read this entire thread, but I don't have a problem with loft jacking if you can control the distance.  The problem I have with stronger lofts is the spin drops too much to control the ball going into the green.  The distance is great but if I can't stop it on the green its useless.  I think its personal for each person, if you have the spin to control it, the stronger lofts are great, if not look for something else.  Thats why there are so many different irons from each manufacturer.

Ping G425 LST 10.5* - Rogue White 130

Ping G425 LST 14.5 - Rogue White 130

TaylorMade SIM 19* Tensei Pro White

Srixon ZX5 4&5 iron Modus 120

Srixon ZX7 6-AW Modus 120

Vokey SM8 54* 60* Modus 125 wedge

EvnRoll ER5B

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There so many good responses in this thread and many sub - topics can be tied in. I will probably post my comments in individual posts to keep from writing a book 🙂 .

Regarding original post,
    In recent years I changed my view from against to one that  I am not against stronger lofts in shorter length/properly fit clubs (someone referenced that years ago the long irons had specific lofts and were a certain length, todays long irons may be shorter in club length but much stronger regarding lofts—varies by brand). 

    My reasoning is most likely I make more center strikes on the golf ball with a shorter length club. Most golfers do. So if a new model/generation club head design has a face that flexes more (ball speed/launch characteristics) and I can achieve the distance I need with that club than I am ok with it. (proper fitting is critical imo — especially for me because I have slower swing speed today)

    For me specific loft is half way to achieving what I need in each iron/wedge. The other half involves the correct length, lie angle, total club length and peak ball height (important with irons so I can hold the green from distances those clubs produce). 

    Simple answer: If I can hit the club long enough and with desired height/back spin to stop the ball with a shorter, stronger lofted club than I am ok with it. After that its proper distance gapping between the irons/wedges. Hybrids/Woods a slightly different perspective but not far off, will discuss in another post.

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I do like the idea of having lofts on the clubs. My wife has a old set of Tommy Armour irons that has the number on the base and the loft on the hosel.  However once you know the distance for each club you really do not need it.

I decides to check the length of the shafts compared to my old blades - loft vs loft not no. vs no. and they are virtually the same length, we are talking a few mm difference. My old 3 is about 2-3mm longer than my current 4. Interestingly my current 7 is the opposite, it is longer.

I am lucky in that I swing fast, standard flight is high and I can stop a 3-4 iron. The down side is that I do not get allot of run. Hybrids I find help is that they do not seam to fly as high and do provide some run. Mind you my hybrid is set to 18 degrees.

Callaway Epic Flash 9 Degree

Callaway Epic Flash 3 wood 15 Degree

Callaway Apex 21 Hybrid 19 Degree

Callaway Steelhead Pro 4-AW Irons

Cleveland 54 Degree Wedge Steel Shaft

Recoil Graphite Shafts in all Callaway

Cobra Vintage Series Stingray 40

Preferred ball - Seed 001

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i have no problem with loft jacking. if you are trying to sell clubs than you sometimes need to stroke ego.

however, some sets are badly constructed when it comes to loft. In an effort to the 7 iron as strong as possible and not give you a 15 degree 4 iron, the gapping is 2 degrees in the long irons and 5 or 6 degrees in the short irons. Your giving an amateur who cant currently hit their 23 degree 4 iron, a 21 degree 5 iron, which they subsequently will not be able to hit. Nor the 24 degree 6 iron. Unless you have decent clubhead speed (not really the target market for these types of clubs) that loft with the shorter length is difficult to launch. The 27 degree 7 iron is a bomber. And where you actually need honed in distances in the short irons, the 8, 9, Pw, GW have huge gaps. You are going from a 27 degree 7 iron to a 50 degree GW. Basically taking away clubs that amateurs can actually hit and help create more consistent yardages for them. 

 

Now some sets get it right though. Add in another wedge, and actually try to stick to 4 degree gapping.  

GARSEN GRIP TESTER

  • Driver: PING G400 MAX, Ventus Blue 6x
  • Woods: COBRA F6 Baffler AD DI 8S
  • Hybrid: CALLAWAY Apex Pro, Ventus Blue 8s
  • Irons: SRIXON ZX5 mk2 5-6, ZX7 mk2 7-PW, Modus 120x
  • Wedges: EDEL 50 C grind, 54 V grind, CLEVELAND 60 RTX6 Low
  • Putter: YES Abbie!
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The idea of having lofts stamped makes alot of sense. At the end of the day, iron performance is about length, loft, and the construction of the head. Great posts about golfer ego, that is in my opinion what is driving buying behavior, which is ultimately steering more brands to keep the trend going. Its good because there is some innovation happening to make clubs that go a long way easier to hit consistently. With that said, because of all the innovation and the influence of marketing on the product itself, there is a wider range of variables in an off the shelf "7 iron" for example than ever before, and that's what I think is bad. It's my opinion that it's easier than ever now to buy a 5i-pw set off the rack that won't "work" for a given golfer, because a 5i isn't a 5i.

“He’s a Cinderella story. A former assistant groundskeeper about to become the Masters champion. It looks like a mirac… It’s in the hole! It’s in the hole! It’s in the hole!” — Carl Spackler

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