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Firebird

Stronger Lofts - is this a Good or Bad Thing

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Hi guys,

 

When I was forced to change my beautiful Wilson Staff Blades I was did extensive research and was shocked to find that in almost every case (blades excluded) the lofts on the irons had become stronger, in some case like Taylormade way stronger.

In the past all my 3 irons have been 21degress - today that is my 4 iron. Taylormade M6 it would be a 5 iron. One of the issue is when you get to wedges, my normal Cleveland PW is 48 degrees, my new one is 44, then the AW is 50 so there is in theory a 2 club step.

As I said I identified this, but several of my golfing buddies did not. They went through the full formal fitting process and got their beautiful new clubs. After the first round the usual comment was - Well obviously they are going to take a few rounds to get used too. After 10 rounds most had stopped hitting the 4-5 irons as they found them very hard to hit consistently. In some cases they had put their old 4-5 back in the bag as they said that they found them much easier to hit. Reason they were the loft was the same as the 6-7 iron in the new set.

Whats are your thoughts? 

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Callaway Epic Flash 9 Degree

Callaway Big Bertha Fusion 3 wood 15 Degree

Callaway Epic Hybrid 18 Degree

Callaway Steelhead Pro 4-AW Irons

Cleveland 48 and 54 Degree Wedges Steel Shaft

Recoil Graphite Shafts in all Callaway Clubs

Callaway Big Bertha Putter - for when it is wet

La Jolla Putter with Flat Car Grip.

Preferred ball - Currently Costco Kirkland Performance 3 Piece but Seed 001 is preferred.

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You hear the term loft jacking a lot nowadays. As cnosil said the only thing that should matter is that you know how the club in your hand will play when you swing.
The reason the OEM's do this (aside from the distance thing) is because they moved weight around to get the stronger lofted club to launch higher (similar to the same numbered traditional lofted club).



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Driver:    PXG Gen2 0811x 10.5* set to small + with a VA Composites Nemesys 55s @ 44.75"

Fairway:  :srixon-small: F85 5 wood with a UST Elements Chrome 7F5 @ 41.5"

Irons: Testing the Titleist T200 irons 4-W2 with Project X LZ 5.5 shaft -1/2" and 1* Up

Wedge: Titleist SM7 56* with Project X LZ 5.0 shaft

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welcome to the forums!

I'd have to agree with the boys up above.  As long as you know and gap your bag correctly you'll be fine.  What I don't like is when they start at the same 50* GW and then go 5+ degrees between the short clubs.  If I know the PW is 44 and and GW is 48 for the set I can just add another "Gap Wedge" at 52 or something similar.

I don't want to go from 50 GW to 44 PW and have a 6* gap.

That's too bad about your friends fitting experience.  The fitter should have brought up wedges and hybrids/woods in the session.


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I would not be concerned with what your buddies say or the club they hit. I would find my distances with you clubs and play against the golf course. 😀

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I have know issues as I know how far I hit a ball but I would like to suggest that the Manufactures Performance Centres might want to advise potential customers of the changes.  

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Callaway Epic Flash 9 Degree

Callaway Big Bertha Fusion 3 wood 15 Degree

Callaway Epic Hybrid 18 Degree

Callaway Steelhead Pro 4-AW Irons

Cleveland 48 and 54 Degree Wedges Steel Shaft

Recoil Graphite Shafts in all Callaway Clubs

Callaway Big Bertha Putter - for when it is wet

La Jolla Putter with Flat Car Grip.

Preferred ball - Currently Costco Kirkland Performance 3 Piece but Seed 001 is preferred.

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7 hours ago, Firebird said:

I have know issues as I know how far I hit a ball but I would like to suggest that the Manufactures Performance Centres might want to advise potential customers of the changes.  

They have the loft specs as well as lengths and other data on the irons specs listed on their websites. They aren’t hiding anything from the consumer. Compare the head size of your blade to one of those irons, they are bigger, have various types of tech in their design. As was mentioned above there lots of threads and discussions on here as well as all over the Internet on the reasons why the lofts are what they are so won’t get into that here, feel free to search the forums and see the discussions around the design.

You are comparing blades to CB, players distance, gi or sgi clubs. That’s like comparing high end sports cars to sedans, coupes, mini vans, suv. They all serve different purposes and thus different designs and looks. 
 

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Driver: Titleist 917D3 9.5 with Graphite Design MAD Pro 65g S

Wood: Titleist 917F2 with UST Mamiya Helium 5F4

Hybrid: Titleist 816H1 21 with Atmos Blue 85 S

Irons: Titleist 718 AP3 4i, 718 CB 5-6, MB 7-9 with KBS $ Taper 125

Wedges: Vokey SM7 46/50/54/60 with DG s200

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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Posted (edited)

I see both sides of the coin here.  So many average golfers are concerned about getting longer with each new club purchase.  Mainstream has always felt that with new technology means hitting the ball further.   What I think the average consumer fails to see is the consistency aspect and accuracy as the two most important items and the third and fourth being feel and distance.  They all play their role, but if I know I can be very consistent on strike as well as accurate with dispersion, I will sacrifice feel and distance and shoot much better scores as a result.  

On one hand, you will have a shorter club to hit with decreased loft, so while it should not go as far as your old 7 iron due to shorter length and not being able to generate the same club head speed for that same loft in theory, it should be a bit easier to hit because of the shorter length.  Example - old 7 iron has standard 34* of loft but is 1/2 inch longer should go a bit further than a new 8 iron which is a bit shorter but same loft, however a shorter club is typically easier to hit for most and be more accurate.

The problem comes into play with long irons.  When a 4 iron is now so delofted, it's nearly like hitting a 1 or 2 iron of years past.   Also, a lot of people just don't understand the loft jacking and think they are simply hitting it so much further and want to spend the money.

Edited by juspoole
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Driver:  image.png.3c6db1120d888f669e07d4a8f890b3f1.pngMavrik Sub Zero 9* (Set to 10) Ventus Blue 6X

3 Wood: :titelist-small: 917F2 Fujikura Pro 84 Tour Spec S

3 Hybrid: :titelist-small: 818 H2 Hybrid Tensei Blue 80 X

Irons 4-PW: :mizuno-small: MP 18 SC Dynamic Gold AMT X

Gap/Sand Wedge:  :titelist-small: Vokey SM6 49*  SM8 54* 

Lob Wedge:  :titelist-small: Vokey SM6 58* Nippon Modus Wedge

Putter:  image.png.cca2328f4144a299c795aa9b8f3bf677.png Inovai 6.0              :scotty-small: Pro Platinum Newport 2 35"  

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8 hours ago, Firebird said:

I have know issues as I know how far I hit a ball but I would like to suggest that the Manufactures Performance Centres might want to advise potential customers of the changes.  

I was one of the lucky few selected to review the new Titleist T200 irons for MGS.  So for the first time ever, I went through a fitting at my local Titleist center.  I understood going in that the T200s are about one club stronger loft than my current AP2 714 irons, and the T200 did go just about one club longer.  What was interesting, though, is that it both the launch angle and descent angle were really close to the older clubs.  What this means to me is that the 7-iron will still go through the same "window" that my old one did, and will stop about the same as the old one did, even though the ball will fly a bit longer.  I won't need to adjust my trajectory expectations, only my distance expectations.  Of the two, I believe its easier to adjust for distance.

And of course, I'm really just guessing, I won't know for sure until I get the finished clubs.

And to answer the question posed in the title, I don't think this is either good or bad, it just is.  

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:titelist-small: Irons Titleist AP2 714, KBS Tour S, 3 flat

:callaway-small: Rogue SubZero, GD YS-Six X

:vokey-small: 52, 56, and 60 wedges

:ping-small: B60 G5i putter

Right handed

Reston, Virginia

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Ive struggled with this.  I know that when I was testing the Tommy Armour Atomics, I really struggled to dial the distance in because they were so much stronger and longer than my old set was.

I think that for most people, its a good thing because we could all use to hit the ball longer.  Some would say that loft jacking is a bit of a bait and switch, myself included but if you can design a club head that launches the ball higher and you can then make the loft stronger and get more distance with the same trajectory as an older iron, whats so bad about that?

I think that in many ways, you really have to forget the actual number thats on the club and instead look at the loft and how it fits into your set.  I know that in my set, for irons really the longest iron I really need is the 5-iron because the 5-iron really has the loft of a 3-iron (22*) and with carrying a 5-wood, there is really no need for the 4-iron.

For the wedges, I go with the AW from the set (which is 48*) and they I go 52* and 56* and that seems to work well.  

I do think that with jacked lofts that it can be difficult to pick wedges because the old rules kind of get thrown out the window and if you play name brand wedges and play a full set, you at looking at having almost $400 invested just in wedges.  IMO, for most people, if you want to have clubs that are somewhat up to date, thats a bit pricey.

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Whats in my Sun Mountain 2.5+ stand bag?:

Woods: Tommy Armour Atomic 10.5* and Top-Flite Gamer 2020 18*

Hybrid: Tommy Armour 845 22*

Irons: Pinemeadow ZR 3.0 5-PW

Wedges: Wilson Harmonized Black Chrome 52*, Tommy Armour VCG 56*, Wilson Harmonized 60* and Wilson Harmonized chipper

Putter: Wilson Augusta

Ball: Maxfli Tour X

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2 hours ago, juspoole said:

I see both sides of the coin here.  So many average golfers are concerned about getting longer with each new club purchase.  Mainstream has always felt that with new technology means hitting the ball further.   What I think the average consumer fails to see is the consistency aspect and accuracy as the two most important items and the third and fourth being feel and distance.  They all play their role, but if I know I can be very consistent on strike as well as accurate with dispersion, I will sacrifice feel and distance and shoot much better scores as a result.  

Amateurs especially the older ones now have the chance to play longer and enjoy the game more because the clubs and technology make it easier to get the ball in the air and distance always sells.

for the bolder part the average consumer plays golf for many different reasons so imo it’s hard to generalize what the average consumer sees or doesn’t. Like with any product the average consumer has a range of knowledge about a product. Some know it does x,y,z and some know it does x,y,z and why and some know what goes into allowing it to do x,y,z.

the same goes for golf. You have the average consumer that only cares about the ball going further than their current club and don’t care why or how it happens. You have some that want it to go further but know they need to find the setup that also stops it on the green quickly and you have the group that understands how to go about it and that hitting it further isn’t always the goal but that the distance it goes is consistent.

i am always amazed to see comments about people willing to sacrifice one aspect of the game for another in today’s market. Imo and experience there are so many options out there that one doesn’t have to sacrifice anything and can find a product that checks all the boxes. 

 

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Driver: Titleist 917D3 9.5 with Graphite Design MAD Pro 65g S

Wood: Titleist 917F2 with UST Mamiya Helium 5F4

Hybrid: Titleist 816H1 21 with Atmos Blue 85 S

Irons: Titleist 718 AP3 4i, 718 CB 5-6, MB 7-9 with KBS $ Taper 125

Wedges: Vokey SM7 46/50/54/60 with DG s200

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

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2 hours ago, juspoole said:

The problem comes into play with long irons.  When a 4 iron is now so delofted, it's nearly like hitting a 1 or 2 iron of years past.  

I'm not sure this is really the case.  Yes, the 4-iron has less loft than it had before, but the technology has made it easier to get the ball in the air, and has improved forgiveness when compared to those old 2 or 3 irons.  Again, I'm speaking theoretically, but I'll get a real experience when my T200s arrive.

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:titelist-small: Irons Titleist AP2 714, KBS Tour S, 3 flat

:callaway-small: Rogue SubZero, GD YS-Six X

:vokey-small: 52, 56, and 60 wedges

:ping-small: B60 G5i putter

Right handed

Reston, Virginia

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7 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Yes, the 4-iron has less loft than it had before, but the technology has made it easier to get the ball in the air

That's a good point. With the weighting and shafts that are out now, it certainly does help in that regard.  

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Driver:  image.png.3c6db1120d888f669e07d4a8f890b3f1.pngMavrik Sub Zero 9* (Set to 10) Ventus Blue 6X

3 Wood: :titelist-small: 917F2 Fujikura Pro 84 Tour Spec S

3 Hybrid: :titelist-small: 818 H2 Hybrid Tensei Blue 80 X

Irons 4-PW: :mizuno-small: MP 18 SC Dynamic Gold AMT X

Gap/Sand Wedge:  :titelist-small: Vokey SM6 49*  SM8 54* 

Lob Wedge:  :titelist-small: Vokey SM6 58* Nippon Modus Wedge

Putter:  image.png.cca2328f4144a299c795aa9b8f3bf677.png Inovai 6.0              :scotty-small: Pro Platinum Newport 2 35"  

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4 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I'm not sure this is really the case.  Yes, the 4-iron has less loft than it had before, but the technology has made it easier to get the ball in the air, and has improved forgiveness when compared to those old 2 or 3 irons.  Again, I'm speaking theoretically, but I'll get a real experience when my T200s arrive.

Best of luck with theT200s!!  I'll be looking forward to your results.

Even when I had a higher swing speed than I do now, I never hit the 3i very high, preferring a lofted FW.  Now, with my SGI set of irons my 5i is 22º and I can hit it as high as my old 7i and a heck of a lot further.

Yes, I have a gap in my wedges but wedge tech has also changed.  Raising the CG has made it easier (for me) to flight the ball lower so that 4º gap is not as necessary as before.

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Posted (edited)

Some companies have kept 4 degree gaps in the short irons and wedges, for example, Callaway Mavriks.  Unfortunately, many have not.  I actually saw a set with 6 degree gaps in the short irons.  I can't imagine a weekend golfer being able to feather or nuke a 9 iron in order to hit that in-between yardage.  The main problem I have with strong lofts is the lower spin rates that go with them.  As a low ball hitter, I have a hard enough time holding greens.

Edited by Hook DeLoft

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I think this is a fascinating topic. The key (in my understanding) is to ignore the static loft of the club, and instead look at launch conditions like dynamic loft, spin, and angle of descent. I want my 7 iron to launch at a certain angle, spin at a certain rate, and descend at the right angle. A 7 iron should not roll out a lot going into a green, but should allow me to stick the green. Because companies have lowered CG, this improving launch conditions and making it easier to get the ball in the air, they need to change the loft of the club to account for these changes in launch conditions. The end benefit is you get the distance of an old 5 iron with the control and stopping power of a 7 iron.

Now...this is an altruistic view of things, they wanted to increase distance and went about finding a way to do so without altering the launch conditions of a 7 iron. 

I do think what was said about gapping is super important. It is worth paying to get a gapping session done so that your launch conditions are right for how you play each club. 

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On 4/23/2020 at 8:19 PM, blackngold_blood said:

You hear the term loft jacking a lot nowadays. As cnosil said the only thing that should matter is that you know how the club in your hand will play when you swing.
The reason the OEM's do this (aside from the distance thing) is because they moved weight around to get the stronger lofted club to launch higher (similar to the same numbered traditional lofted club).



Sent from my Moto Z3 Play using MyGolfSpy mobile app
 

 

The marketing departments say this, but an examination of CG locations in irons over the last 30-50 years shows there's no real difference.  There is variation in models, so you can always find lower and higher CGs in any time period, but generally speaking, CG are not now lower and farther back than they were.

Both the 1973 Hogan Apex and Mizuno MP-14 have a PW at 50*, yet have a CG lower than .700".

Personally, I'll go with the word of Tom Wishon, who says the stronger lofts are only to sell clubs.

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3w:  Cobra King LTD, Matrix 8m3 X, 42"
2h:  TaylorMade Stage 2 Tour, Aldila NV105 S
Irons:  3-PW Mizuno MP37, DGS300; 2-PW Golden Ram TW282, Precision 6.5; 3-PW Golden Ram TW276, NV105 S; 2-PW Golden Ram 1980 Tour Grinds, Dynamic S; 2-PW MacGregor Muirfield, Dynamic S; 1-PW Wilson Staff 78 Tour Blades, Dynamic S; 2-PW Ram TG-898, Nippon Super Peening Blue X
GW: Dynacraft Dual Milled CNC 52*, DGS300; Scratch 8620 DS 53*, Steelfiber 125 S
SW:  Ram TG-898 56*, DGX ss2x; Ram Tom Watson 55*, DGX ss2x; Wilson Staff PMP 58*, DGS; Golden Ram TW276, DGS; Golden Ram TW282, DGS; Ram Troon Grind 56*, DGS
LW:  Maltby Design 60*, 1.05 sole, DGS; Maltby Design 60* 1.05 sole, NV105
Putter:  Snake Eyes Viper Tour Sv1, 34", round no taper grip
Ball:  Wilson Staff Duo Pro or FG Tour, or Kirkland Signature 3 pc

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1 hour ago, NRJyzr said:

Personally, I'll go with the word of Tom Wishon, who says the stronger lofts are only to sell clubs.

Isn't Tom Wishon also in the business of selling clubs?  His stated opinion may be just as much of a sales tactic as anyone else's.


:titelist-small: Irons Titleist AP2 714, KBS Tour S, 3 flat

:callaway-small: Rogue SubZero, GD YS-Six X

:vokey-small: 52, 56, and 60 wedges

:ping-small: B60 G5i putter

Right handed

Reston, Virginia

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

Isn't Tom Wishon also in the business of selling clubs?  His stated opinion may be just as much of a sales tactic as anyone else's.

That might make sense if he were arguing the opposite.  And, if a quick surf of CG locations didn't align with his comments.  😉

Edited by NRJyzr
Need caffeine to kick in, LOL
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Cobra King LTD, Aldila ProtoPype 70 S (persimmons occasionally used)
3w:  Cobra King LTD, Matrix 8m3 X, 42"
2h:  TaylorMade Stage 2 Tour, Aldila NV105 S
Irons:  3-PW Mizuno MP37, DGS300; 2-PW Golden Ram TW282, Precision 6.5; 3-PW Golden Ram TW276, NV105 S; 2-PW Golden Ram 1980 Tour Grinds, Dynamic S; 2-PW MacGregor Muirfield, Dynamic S; 1-PW Wilson Staff 78 Tour Blades, Dynamic S; 2-PW Ram TG-898, Nippon Super Peening Blue X
GW: Dynacraft Dual Milled CNC 52*, DGS300; Scratch 8620 DS 53*, Steelfiber 125 S
SW:  Ram TG-898 56*, DGX ss2x; Ram Tom Watson 55*, DGX ss2x; Wilson Staff PMP 58*, DGS; Golden Ram TW276, DGS; Golden Ram TW282, DGS; Ram Troon Grind 56*, DGS
LW:  Maltby Design 60*, 1.05 sole, DGS; Maltby Design 60* 1.05 sole, NV105
Putter:  Snake Eyes Viper Tour Sv1, 34", round no taper grip
Ball:  Wilson Staff Duo Pro or FG Tour, or Kirkland Signature 3 pc

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It didn’t matter what’s stamped on the bottom, if it’s designed for distance or if there’s data showing that nothings really changed in 50 years. There’s no standards for what has to be what in golf, from shaft lengths, shaft flexes, lofts on irons, and so on. 
 

If you like blades and whatever you consider traditional lofts (yes even blade are stronger today than in decades past) then play blades. If you want more help and and clan that makes it easier to hit and enjoy the game then play something more forgiving.

if you don’t like the other stuff don’t play h th e other stuff. golf is about enjoying the game how you choose to enjoy it and worrying about what companies are doing or what people are playing has no impact on anyone. There’s obviously a market out there for non blades irons and even non players cavity backs or we wouldn’t see the companies continuing to make them or in the cases of some companies have multiple sets with stronger lofts and larger clubheads. Even golfers who love the look, size, feel of a players club in the t100 want more distance. The Ap2 has been the number 1iron on tour. 
 

play what you like and let everyone else do the same
 

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Driver: Titleist 917D3 9.5 with Graphite Design MAD Pro 65g S

Wood: Titleist 917F2 with UST Mamiya Helium 5F4

Hybrid: Titleist 816H1 21 with Atmos Blue 85 S

Irons: Titleist 718 AP3 4i, 718 CB 5-6, MB 7-9 with KBS $ Taper 125

Wedges: Vokey SM7 46/50/54/60 with DG s200

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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