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Stronger Lofts - is this a Good or Bad Thing

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3 hours ago, Pingistheanser said:

Heres an interesting watch.  I think that one thing that people forget when it comes to jacked lofts is that its not so much that the newer clubs are longer.  Theyre actually pretty comparabe on center strikes.  The real advantage comes in when you miss the center of the clubface.  The old clubs penalized you much more when you missed the middle.  With new  clubs, especially the ones with jacked lofts, you can be all over the clubface and still get pretty good ballflight.

Yea thats two seperate things- moi and forgiveness doesnt have to be married to strong lofts

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12 hours ago, Pingistheanser said:

and I still think youre wrong about that.  Distance matters with ALL clubs, as long as you can control it.

I corrected my statement days ago. The thread is about more distance with irons so I thought it was understood but to be more accurate:
MORE distance only matters with your driver (is what I meant). For all your other clubs knowing distance and gaps is important obviously, MORE distance is not. You don’t NEED to hit your 7 iron further, just use a 6 iron...

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55 minutes ago, Middler said:

I corrected my statement days ago. The thread is about more distance with irons so I thought it was understood but to be more accurate:
MORE distance only matters with your driver (is what I meant). For all your other clubs knowing distance and gaps is important obviously, MORE distance is not. You don’t NEED to hit your 7 iron further, just use a 6 iron...

But I do want to hit my 7i further as I do my 4,5,6,8,9,pw. If I can consistently hit my current 8i the same I’m getting from my 7i and my 7i as my current 6i and so on then it’s a good thing as I have an easier club to hit into greens.

Find me an amateur that would not like to hit their current irons further. 

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Driver: Titleist 917D3 9.5 with Graphite Design MAD Pro 65g S

Wood: Titleist 917F2 with UST Mamiya Helium 5F4

Hybrid: Titleist 816H1 21 with Atmos Blue 85 S

Irons: Titleist 718 AP3 4i, 718 CB 5-6, MB 7-9 with KBS $ Taper 125

Wedges: Vokey SM7 46/50/54/60 with DG s200

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13 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

But I do want to hit my 7i further as I do my 4,5,6,8,9,pw. If I can consistently hit my current 8i the same I’m getting from my 7i and my 7i as my current 6i and so on then it’s a good thing as I have an easier club to hit into greens.

Find me an amateur that would not like to hit their current irons further. 

Why? If you’re faced with a 150 yard approach, all you need to know is which club do YOU hit 150 yards. What’s stamped on the sole doesn’t change that one iota. If it’s stamped with an “8” in your set and it’s the same loft as a “7” in my set, one is not “easier to hit” than the other assuming same design. In a couple years when manufacturers are stamping “9” on the sole of their iron with the same loft, are you going to want that then? They’re betting you will. And you won’t hit it further, you’ll just be able to say I hit my “9”...

 


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12 minutes ago, Middler said:

Why? If you’re faced with a 150 yard approach, all you need to know is which club do YOU hit 150 yards. What’s stamped on the sole doesn’t change that one iota. If it’s stamped with an “8” in your set and it’s the same loft as a “7” in my set, one is not “easier to hit” than the other assuming same design. In a couple years when manufacturers are stamping “9” on the sole of their iron with the same loft, are you going to want that then? They’re betting you will. And you won’t hit it further, you’ll just be able to say I hit my “9”...

 

You should re-read my comment. You are bringing lofts and numbers stamped to a comment that talked about current irons both for my case as well as finding an amateur that doesn’t want more distance with their current irons.

you said nobody NEEDS to hit their irons further. What one needs isn’t up to you to determine and everyone wants more distance to include with their current clubs. It’s why superspeed is successful.

 

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Driver: Titleist 917D3 9.5 with Graphite Design MAD Pro 65g S

Wood: Titleist 917F2 with UST Mamiya Helium 5F4

Hybrid: Titleist 816H1 21 with Atmos Blue 85 S

Irons: Titleist 718 AP3 4i, 718 CB 5-6, MB 7-9 with KBS $ Taper 125

Wedges: Vokey SM7 46/50/54/60 with DG s200

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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At the end of the day this is about the individual consumer taking responsibility for their $1K purchase, isn't it? 

If an OEM puts out a 3-page ad in Golf Digest about their sticks being a full club longer, and John Doe goes in and buys them based on that, or even hits them and decides that yes, they are a club longer, and makes his purchase based on that alone without any further research, has he proven to be susceptible to a good ad?  Maybe.  Deceived?  I don't think so.  The true loft of a club, any club, isn't exactly hard to find.  That spin rates, launch angle, descent angle, etc., all matter in determining a good fit and will help you hit more GIR and possibly lower your scores isn't hard to figure out either.  Anybody can spend some time on the internet and figure that out.

I'm certain there are big box stores and club fitters that let over-eager customers make purchases without explaining all of these variables, and that maybe distance isn't the only factor they should be concerned with. But, my money, my clubs, my game....MY responsibility to be an educated consumer.

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FW: :tour-edge: CBX 119 3w, 15,  Project X Evenflow Blue 75g Stiff

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Driving Iron: :mizuno-small: MP-20 HMB 3i, UST Mamiya recoil ES 780 F3

Iron: :mizuno-small:JPX 919 Forged 4- GW, Project X 6.0

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1 hour ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

You should re-read my comment. You are bringing lofts and numbers stamped to a comment that talked about current irons both for my case as well as finding an amateur that doesn’t want more distance with their current irons.

you said nobody NEEDS to hit their irons further. What one needs isn’t up to you to determine and everyone wants more distance to include with their current clubs. It’s why superspeed is successful.

 

No one here can “determine” anything for “everyone” here, we’re almost all anonymous strangers - I can’t so I’m not sure why you suggest I can or mean to. It’s my POV, with my supporting thoughts. You’re free to believe otherwise. And while you’re accusing me of speaking for everyone, all amateurs don’t want more distance with their irons as you say. They’re most interested in knowing how far each one goes consistently. Let’s agree to disagree already. Some players don’t want more distance from irons, especially when it’s only a now meaningless number stamped on the sole, and they realize more distance is only of obvious value with a driver.

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3 minutes ago, Middler said:

We agree to disagree. Some players don’t want more distance from irons and they realize more distance is only of value with a driver.

That would be very few in my experience to include the pros. It’s about consistency in the distance. It may not be important to some but hitting clubs further like DJ swapping hydro s for more loft to take distance off in Hawaii. He used a club that fit the need for that course. 
 

Please give me the name of a golfer that doesn’t want more distance and their reason for that?


Driver: Titleist 917D3 9.5 with Graphite Design MAD Pro 65g S

Wood: Titleist 917F2 with UST Mamiya Helium 5F4

Hybrid: Titleist 816H1 21 with Atmos Blue 85 S

Irons: Titleist 718 AP3 4i, 718 CB 5-6, MB 7-9 with KBS $ Taper 125

Wedges: Vokey SM7 46/50/54/60 with DG s200

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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5 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Please give me the name of a golfer that doesn’t want more distance and their reason for that?

OK, give it a rest....

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2 minutes ago, Middler said:

OK, give it a rest....

It’s a simple question. You say people don’t want more distance. Tell me who and why? If you can’t say you can’t but dont make a claim and get upset when someone ask you to back it up.

PGA tour pros look for more distance with all their clubs. Francesco Molinari changed his without routine specifically for that goal. So o find it hard to believe that no amateur would tournament down more distance when pros are looking for it 


Driver: Titleist 917D3 9.5 with Graphite Design MAD Pro 65g S

Wood: Titleist 917F2 with UST Mamiya Helium 5F4

Hybrid: Titleist 816H1 21 with Atmos Blue 85 S

Irons: Titleist 718 AP3 4i, 718 CB 5-6, MB 7-9 with KBS $ Taper 125

Wedges: Vokey SM7 46/50/54/60 with DG s200

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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2 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

But I do want to hit my 7i further as I do my 4,5,6,8,9,pw. If I can consistently hit my current 8i the same I’m getting from my 7i and my 7i as my current 6i and so on then it’s a good thing as I have an easier club to hit into greens.

Find me an amateur that would not like to hit their current irons further. 

There is one way to do that and thats bagging a full set of hi cor thin faced hot irons. Lofts are simply not giving you anything extra. If thats what you feel you need go ahead, but mid to low cappers actually get worse with these type clubs and MGS has data to prove it.

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28 minutes ago, Moose4282 said:

There is one way to do that and thats bagging a full set of hi cor thin faced hot irons. Lofts are simply not giving you anything extra. If thats what you feel you need go ahead, but mid to low cappers actually get worse with these type clubs and MGS has data to prove it.

My comment wasn’t about lofts or hot faces. I was replying to a comment about distance. I’m saying that for me if I was able to hit my current 8i another 10-12 yards which would equal the distance of my 7i I wouldn’t turn that away and the second part of my comment was referring to any amateur and their current set wouldn’t mind have extra distance as well, as long as it was consistent. 
 

i can hit my 8i further if I went after it but the consistency in strike and distance each time may not be there.

There are low capper with p790s, g series irons in their bags with no issues. I knew a guy that was around a 3 hdcp that play the old Cleveland hi bore irons. The notion that low or mid cappers don’t benefit or wouldn’t use hot faced or forgiving irons is silly. I hover between an 8 and 10 hdcp and played p790 for the first year they came out. Only reason I got rid of them was to play Pxg 


Driver: Titleist 917D3 9.5 with Graphite Design MAD Pro 65g S

Wood: Titleist 917F2 with UST Mamiya Helium 5F4

Hybrid: Titleist 816H1 21 with Atmos Blue 85 S

Irons: Titleist 718 AP3 4i, 718 CB 5-6, MB 7-9 with KBS $ Taper 125

Wedges: Vokey SM7 46/50/54/60 with DG s200

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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13 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

My comment wasn’t about lofts or hot faces. I was replying to a comment about distance. I’m saying that for me if I was able to hit my current 8i another 10-12 yards which would equal the distance of my 7i I wouldn’t turn that away and the second part of my comment was referring to any amateur and their current set wouldn’t mind have extra distance as well, as long as it was consistent. 
 

i can hit my 8i further if I went after it but the consistency in strike and distance each time may not be there.

There are low capper with p790s, g series irons in their bags with no issues. I knew a guy that was around a 3 hdcp that play the old Cleveland hi bore irons. The notion that low or mid cappers don’t benefit or wouldn’t use hot faced or forgiving irons is silly. I hover between an 8 and 10 hdcp and played p790 for the first year they came out. Only reason I got rid of them was to play Pxg 

It is certainly possible to be a lo capper and not be a good ball striker. Ive see rounds with 4 greens in regulation and the score was still like even par. So perhaps there are some low cappers who may benefit from a more forgiving iron. On the flipside, they may be doing themselves a disservice, By not playing something more demanding which can lead to better striking. Maybe they wont ever possess the talent to do that, who knows for sure.  Does everyone want more distance- well sure- how you get it is another thing. What the other poster  was eluding to was accuracy is priority number 1 when it comes to irons. The equipment that produces faster ball speeds and lower spin rates will almost always be less consistent to any decent ball striker.

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2 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

It’s a simple question. You say people don’t want more distance. Tell me who and why? If you can’t say you can’t but dont make a claim and get upset when someone ask you to back it up.

PGA tour pros look for more distance with all their clubs. Francesco Molinari changed his without routine specifically for that goal. So o find it hard to believe that no amateur would tournament down more distance when pros are looking for it 

I'm not at all upset. What makes you think anyone has to be upset if we disagree? Relax, we disagree, that's OK. There have been plenty of people who oppose loft jacking - they appear on threads regularly on any golf forum, though I readily admit there are more buyers who are on board with loft jacking judging by OEM iron sales. I am not saying there's one right answer, you're the one insisting EVERYONE wants more distance from their irons. If everyone wanted the longest irons possible, why does every OEM offer a variety of sets - with a variety of lofts?

Molinari originally signed with Callaway after three years as a free agent, and he chose Apex MB's - very traditional lofts and certainly not a distance choice from his previous Nike or TM cavity backs. It appears he's now switched to Apex Pro Forged cavity back, also with traditional lofts. I haven't followed Molinari but what I read suggests he wanted a cavity back iron as that's what he'd previous won with TM P750 CB. If he wanted more distance, almost every other iron Callaway offers would have given him more (loft jacked) distance.

But really, this is nonsense, my last post on this thread. You're welcome to have the last word and claim a false victory where there's no "right answer."

https://www.callawaygolf.com/golf-clubs/iron-sets/irons-2019-apex-pro.html#product-specs

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  • Callaway Rogue 10.5° 9.5°D & 3W
  • Mizuno MP-20 HMB 3i 19°, JPX900 Forged 4-GW, S18 56.10
  • Evnroll ER5B (replaced ER2)
  • and Mizuno CLK 3H 19° OR Mizuno S18 60.06
  • Snell MTB-X (replacing Black)

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52 minutes ago, Moose4282 said:

 On the flipside, they may be doing themselves a disservice, By not playing something more demanding which can lead to better striking. 

I've seen this claim before, that more demanding clubs will somehow make you a better ballstriker.  I've just never seen it proven, and don't really believe it.  Just because the ball feels and performs worse on mis-hits doesn't make you better, it just makes your hands hurt and your scores higher.  Improved ballstriking comes from making better swings, either from practicing and grooving your flaws, or working to eliminate those flaws.

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1 hour ago, Middler said:

I'm not at all upset. What makes you think anyone has to be upset if we disagree? Relax, we disagree, that's OK. There have been plenty of people who oppose loft jacking - they appear on threads regularly on any golf forum, though I readily admit there are more buyers who are on board with loft jacking judging by OEM iron sales. I am not saying there's one right answer, you're the one insisting EVERYONE wants more distance from their irons. If everyone wanted the longest irons possible, why does every OEM offer a variety of sets - with a variety of lofts?

Molinari originally signed with Callaway after three years as a free agent, and he chose Apex MB's - very traditional lofts and certainly not a distance choice from his previous Nike or TM cavity backs. It appears he's now switched to Apex Pro Forged cavity back, also with traditional lofts. I haven't followed Molinari but what I read suggests he wanted a cavity back iron as that's what he'd previous won with TM P750 CB. If he wanted more distance, almost every other iron Callaway offers would have given him more (loft jacked) distance.

But really, this is nonsense, my last post on this thread. You're welcome to have the last word and claim a false victory where there's no "right answer."

https://www.callawaygolf.com/golf-clubs/iron-sets/irons-2019-apex-pro.html#product-specs

I’m not saying everyone want more distance I’m arguing the comments that people don’t need or want it. I’ve yet to meet an amateur who says they hit it far enough and that includes guys that are long already.

Yes molinarin could find more distance with a different set of irons but he’s looking for distance in all clubs so a training program that helps him add speed throughout the bag is better than replacing  his preferred look and lofts with something that doesn’t fit his eye and or ball flight. 

not looking for a victory or the last word, if I make a claim and someone ask me to back it up I do and if I’m wrong I have no problem saying I’m wrong. Just weird people get upset when people ask for something to help explain their statements.


Driver: Titleist 917D3 9.5 with Graphite Design MAD Pro 65g S

Wood: Titleist 917F2 with UST Mamiya Helium 5F4

Hybrid: Titleist 816H1 21 with Atmos Blue 85 S

Irons: Titleist 718 AP3 4i, 718 CB 5-6, MB 7-9 with KBS $ Taper 125

Wedges: Vokey SM7 46/50/54/60 with DG s200

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

I've seen this claim before, that more demanding clubs will somehow make you a better ballstriker.  I've just never seen it proven, and don't really believe it.  Just because the ball feels and performs worse on mis-hits doesn't make you better, it just makes your hands hurt and your scores higher.  Improved ballstriking comes from making better swings, either from practicing and grooving your flaws, or working to eliminate those flaws.

I cant “prove” it but ive experienced it. When i first got into golf, i had one of my grrat grandfathers OLD bladed 6 iron laying around my house after he passed. Started taking it out as a kid, and if you have ever tried to hit a club that old... it will literally make you strike it well or just quite there wasn't really any in between. When my dad purchased my first set, big chunky cavities- they were sooo easy to hit! Im convinced that little blade improved my hand eye coordination. Feel is another aspect. Some of those big forgiving cavities mask strike so well. Ive seen it before where someone is constantly hitting it out in the toe but couldnt really tell. They are leaving yards and performance on the table.

 

edit: i will add this concept is used in other sports as well, unsure of the name..the cuban and dominican baseball baseball players hitting small rocks with a stick to fine tune hand eye coordination 

Edited by Moose4282

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For the last time loft jacking isnt magically giving you distance... its the apperance of distance.  Anyone who says otherwise Is not using their thinking cap well.

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40 minutes ago, Moose4282 said:

For the last time loft jacking isnt magically giving you distance... its the apperance of distance.  Anyone who says otherwise Is not using their thinking cap well.

weird you were bowing out of the thread. 


Driver: Titleist 917D3 9.5 with Graphite Design MAD Pro 65g S

Wood: Titleist 917F2 with UST Mamiya Helium 5F4

Hybrid: Titleist 816H1 21 with Atmos Blue 85 S

Irons: Titleist 718 AP3 4i, 718 CB 5-6, MB 7-9 with KBS $ Taper 125

Wedges: Vokey SM7 46/50/54/60 with DG s200

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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Well... let's just all bow out of this discussion just like the really weird folks at WRX did last fall.  Everyone has made their points over and over again, ad nauseam.  Nobody is right; everyone is wrong, but it really doesn't matter to the people that want to play golf instead of arguing about something that doesn't really matter.  We all play what we like, and that usually means what allows us to play our best.

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