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Stronger Lofts - is this a Good or Bad Thing

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On 4/25/2020 at 5:27 AM, NRJyzr said:

 

The marketing departments say this, but an examination of CG locations in irons over the last 30-50 years shows there's no real difference.  There is variation in models, so you can always find lower and higher CGs in any time period, but generally speaking, CG are not now lower and farther back than they were.

Both the 1973 Hogan Apex and Mizuno MP-14 have a PW at 50*, yet have a CG lower than .700".

Personally, I'll go with the word of Tom Wishon, who says the stronger lofts are only to sell clubs.

Yes! The only thing thats “changed” is the rise of “hot face” irons. Cgs havent. Now the “hot faced” irons do produce a slightly higher launch and peak height but thats likely attributed to the thinner face and higher ball speeds. 

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Posted (edited)

I saw something interesting a few years ago in a review of the Rogue X irons, which made me give them a try, and was the deciding factor for me in my purchase. The man said "if you can't hit a 7 iron 150 yards, give this club a try. If you can already hit it 150, they aren't for you."

At the time, I had to absolutely nut my 7 to carry it 150, so I gave them a whirl. Suddenly my 7 was a 155 club with an easy swing. If I needed to, I could get 160 out of it. My gap wedge went from 90 to 105. Sure it was the loft of my old PW, but it had the same shaft length as my prior gw. The clubs went the same (or higher) height as my old ones. It was a win win for me.

The only concession I made was changing my 54*-58* setup to 52*-58*. That hasn't hurt me at all, in fact, I think I've become better around the greens and from traps because instead of switching back and forth, I stick with my 58*. The 52* is used for full swings or longer pitch shots. 

Edited by Grand Stranded
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:callaway-small: Epic Flash 10.5* Bassara

:callaway-small: Rogue 15*  Quaranta 

:callaway-small: Epic Flash hybrids 18* & 21* Tensei Silver

:callaway-small: Rogue X 5-AW Tensei Silver 

:callaway-small: MD4 52* & 56*

:odyssey-small: Stroke Lab Double Wide 34"

:callaway-small: Fusion Zero 14 way stand bag

 

:EVNROLL: ER5  & :yes-small: Tracy putters will be sitting in a :titelist-small: Hybrid 5 bag, just waiting for the :odyssey-small: to misbehave.

 

 

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On 4/24/2020 at 1:22 PM, jddaigneault said:

Because companies have lowered CG, this improving launch conditions and making it easier to get the ball in the air, they need to change the loft of the club to account for these changes in launch conditions. The end benefit is you get the distance of an old 5 iron with the control and stopping power of a 7 iron.

But if are the same loft and length just a difference in weight placement that is not really true.

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On 4/25/2020 at 5:27 AM, NRJyzr said:

 

The marketing departments say this, but an examination of CG locations in irons over the last 30-50 years shows there's no real difference.  There is variation in models, so you can always find lower and higher CGs in any time period, but generally speaking, CG are not now lower and farther back than they were.

Both the 1973 Hogan Apex and Mizuno MP-14 have a PW at 50*, yet have a CG lower than .700".

Personally, I'll go with the word of Tom Wishon, who says the stronger lofts are only to sell clubs.

I thought CG was a big change, you can see the weights externally and internally now via marketing graphics.

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11 hours ago, Moose4282 said:

Yes! The only thing thats “changed” is the rise of “hot face” irons. Cgs havent. Now the “hot faced” irons do produce a slightly higher launch and peak height but thats likely attributed to the thinner face and higher ball speeds. 

Major reason I am reluctant to buy a new set of irons with unknown / uncontrollable hot faces is total BS.

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I don't follow the argument that OEM's have to strengthen the lofts to adjust for spring faces.  Why would they not keep the length the same then?  They haven't.  The length has also been extended.  It really is putting a 7 iron label on a 6 or 5 iron.

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Driver:  :ping-small: G410 Plus, VA Vylyn 75 Four
Woods: :cobra-small:F8, F6 Baffer
Hybrids: :callaway-small: XR 4, 5
Irons: :ping-small:G25 6 - GW, Nippon 950GH Stiff
Wedges:  :ping-small: Glide 2.0 Stealth 54/WS, Zing LW
Putter:  :ping-small: Sigma G Craz-E

Leupold GX-4i3, Arccos

Penalty Box: :EVNROLL:ER7

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My biggest issue with the loft jacking is that you have a pitching wedge that is in the low 40 degree range. If you have that you'll almost have to be carrying 4 wedges to tighten the gaps.

Sent from my SM-G950U using MyGolfSpy mobile app

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16 minutes ago, viking said:

But if are the same loft and length just a difference in weight placement that is not really true.

If I leave loft and length the same but move weight it will still change launch conditions. Now my 7 iron will launch like and 8 or 6. I think the idea is I can get a ball that used to take a 5 iron get there with a 7 that is more consistent, holds greens better, etc. Assuming I understand what your comment is implying. 


P790s/M5 Driver/F9 3wood/F9 hybrid/MG2 wedges/Ardmore putter

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1 minute ago, tchat07 said:

My biggest issue with the loft jacking is that you have a pitching wedge that is in the low 40 degree range. If you have that you'll almost have to be carrying 4 wedges to tighten the gaps.

Sent from my SM-G950U using MyGolfSpy mobile app
 

Agreed. Soon we will have more wedges than irons.

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Driver:  :ping-small: G410 Plus, VA Vylyn 75 Four
Woods: :cobra-small:F8, F6 Baffer
Hybrids: :callaway-small: XR 4, 5
Irons: :ping-small:G25 6 - GW, Nippon 950GH Stiff
Wedges:  :ping-small: Glide 2.0 Stealth 54/WS, Zing LW
Putter:  :ping-small: Sigma G Craz-E

Leupold GX-4i3, Arccos

Penalty Box: :EVNROLL:ER7

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3 minutes ago, tchat07 said:

My biggest issue with the loft jacking is that you have a pitching wedge that is in the low 40 degree range. If you have that you'll almost have to be carrying 4 wedges to tighten the gaps.

Sent from my SM-G950U using MyGolfSpy mobile app
 

In theory, wouldn’t this not matter? I can carry a 4 iron 230, I don’t need as many long clubs and can focus on more scoring clubs. I see that as a benefit. I think when building a set ignoring the club identifier (9,8,7) and focusing on loft is a better route. 

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P790s/M5 Driver/F9 3wood/F9 hybrid/MG2 wedges/Ardmore putter

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On 4/23/2020 at 7:37 PM, Firebird said:

Hi guys,

 

When I was forced to change my beautiful Wilson Staff Blades I was did extensive research and was shocked to find that in almost every case (blades excluded) the lofts on the irons had become stronger, in some case like Taylormade way stronger.

In the past all my 3 irons have been 21degress - today that is my 4 iron. Taylormade M6 it would be a 5 iron. One of the issue is when you get to wedges, my normal Cleveland PW is 48 degrees, my new one is 44, then the AW is 50 so there is in theory a 2 club step.

As I said I identified this, but several of my golfing buddies did not. They went through the full formal fitting process and got their beautiful new clubs. After the first round the usual comment was - Well obviously they are going to take a few rounds to get used too. After 10 rounds most had stopped hitting the 4-5 irons as they found them very hard to hit consistently. In some cases they had put their old 4-5 back in the bag as they said that they found them much easier to hit. Reason they were the loft was the same as the 6-7 iron in the new set.

Whats are your thoughts? 

Your friends bought the wrong style of irons.

They should’ve looked into how the iron was designed. My Rogue X irons havethe strongest lofts on the market, and are designed to also hit the ball high. I used a 5 hybrid for years, in fact I recommended the club to @ole gray a few months back, that’s how much I loved mine. The Rogue X 5 iron however, is my favorite club in the set. I ditched the 5 hybrid for it. 

Quick story... this Saturday I played in my league. The A players are on white tees (myself and my opponent) the B players were a tee up. One of the B players shotthe yardage for us on a par 3. He said it was 176 for us, 140 for them. Both of us on the whites play the Rogue X, and we hit 5 irons. He was hole high, about 15 feet left of the pin, and I was about 20 feet Long directly behind the flag.

When we got to the green, one of the B players asked what we hit. We told him 5 iron. He said that couldn’t have been playing 175. His friend told him, “you were the one who used the range finder...” 🙄

 

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:callaway-small: Epic Flash 10.5* Bassara

:callaway-small: Rogue 15*  Quaranta 

:callaway-small: Epic Flash hybrids 18* & 21* Tensei Silver

:callaway-small: Rogue X 5-AW Tensei Silver 

:callaway-small: MD4 52* & 56*

:odyssey-small: Stroke Lab Double Wide 34"

:callaway-small: Fusion Zero 14 way stand bag

 

:EVNROLL: ER5  & :yes-small: Tracy putters will be sitting in a :titelist-small: Hybrid 5 bag, just waiting for the :odyssey-small: to misbehave.

 

 

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40 minutes ago, Grand Stranded said:

I saw something interesting a few years ago in a review of the Rogue X irons, which made me give them a try, and was the deciding factor for me in my purchase. The man said "if you can't hit a 7 iron 150 yards, give this club a try. If you can already hit it 150, they aren't for you."

That would be two clubs stronger for me. When I tried a Ping G400 5 iron last year I hit a 5 iron 165, on my set a 5 iron would be 150 so 15 yards farther but it was way easier to hit and way more accurate, so much so that I almost got a hole in one with it on the first try. I also hit a G400 7 iron and it was nice. Then felt bad borrowing the clubs as I was in a $10,000 hole in one contest and with his clubs I was hitting way closer to the hole than he was and he was a 18-19 year old who worked at the golf course when I I used his clubs. When I used my clubs he was much better / closer to the whole.

I hit my TNT Silver Eagles from 1985:

SW 90 yards

PW 100 yards

9 iron 110 yards

8 iron 120 yards

7 iron 130 yards

6 iron 140 yards

5 iron 150 yards

4 iron 160 yards

Don't play my 2 or 3 iron anymore.

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5 minutes ago, Dr Strangelove said:

Agreed. Soon we will have more wedges than irons.

Not to mention wedges now cost about $150 and wear out in 2-3 years.  I think that for the average person, having to drop $450 just on wedges every couple of years is kind of unrealistic.  I have more disposable income than a lot of people that I know and have no kids and I cringe at the thought of spending that much just on wedges.  I couldnt imagine if I had a few kids and had to try to talk my wife into letting me drop that much money on wedges every 2 years, in addition to trying to get her let me spend $1200 on irons, $500 on a driver or $400 on a putter.  If you want to have nice clubs and want to stay somewhat up to date on technology, its kind of a big committment.

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Whats in my Sun Mountain 2.5+ stand bag?:

Woods: Titleist 913FD 13.5* 3-wood

Hybrid: Titleist 915HD 3H 

Irons: Titleist DCI 822 OS 6, 8 and PW

Wedges: Ping Glide 2.0 56*

Putter: Titleist Bullseye Standard

Ball: Titleist Pro V1

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, viking said:

That would be two clubs stronger for me. When I tried a Ping G400 5 iron last year I hit a 5 iron 165, on my set a 5 iron would be 150 so 15 yards farther but it was way easier to hit and way more accurate, so much so that I almost got a hole in one with it on the first try. I also hit a G400 7 iron and it was nice. Then felt bad borrowing the clubs as I was in a $10,000 hole in one contest and with his clubs I was hitting way closer to the hole than he was and he was a 18-19 year old who worked at the golf course when I I used his clubs. When I used my clubs he was much better / closer to the whole.

I hit my TNT Silver Eagles from 1985:

SW 90 yards

PW 100 yards

9 iron 110 yards

8 iron 120 yards

7 iron 130 yards

6 iron 140 yards

5 iron 150 yards

4 iron 160 yards

Don't play my 2 or 3 iron anymore.

I went from Apex cf16s. I’m easily a club longer now, and the Rogue X are more forgiving. I was maybe(?) a club longer with the Apex than you are with the Silver Eagles. The Rogue X are easily 1/2 a club longer than the 400’s.

Edited by Grand Stranded

:callaway-small: Epic Flash 10.5* Bassara

:callaway-small: Rogue 15*  Quaranta 

:callaway-small: Epic Flash hybrids 18* & 21* Tensei Silver

:callaway-small: Rogue X 5-AW Tensei Silver 

:callaway-small: MD4 52* & 56*

:odyssey-small: Stroke Lab Double Wide 34"

:callaway-small: Fusion Zero 14 way stand bag

 

:EVNROLL: ER5  & :yes-small: Tracy putters will be sitting in a :titelist-small: Hybrid 5 bag, just waiting for the :odyssey-small: to misbehave.

 

 

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19 minutes ago, jddaigneault said:

If I leave loft and length the same but move weight it will still change launch conditions. Now my 7 iron will launch like and 8 or 6. I think the idea is I can get a ball that used to take a 5 iron get there with a 7 that is more consistent, holds greens better, etc. Assuming I understand what your comment is implying. 

I understand and agree with your point.

No what I am saying if they both have the same loft and length (i.e. old 5 iron and new 7 iron) they are the same just BS labeling on the club. But if the amount and placement of the weight or club face design are different than it acts differently eg 5 iron flys like a 7 iron.

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On 4/23/2020 at 11:44 PM, Firebird said:

I have know issues as I know how far I hit a ball but I would like to suggest that the Manufactures Performance Centres might want to advise potential customers of the changes.  

They do. It’s under the heading “Specifications”. Every manufacturer lists the lofts, lies, even the offset and length of each club in a set.

If your friends are going to go out and spend $800-1200 on a set of irons, and not do any basic research or testing, I’d say that’s on them, not the manufacturer.

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:callaway-small: Epic Flash 10.5* Bassara

:callaway-small: Rogue 15*  Quaranta 

:callaway-small: Epic Flash hybrids 18* & 21* Tensei Silver

:callaway-small: Rogue X 5-AW Tensei Silver 

:callaway-small: MD4 52* & 56*

:odyssey-small: Stroke Lab Double Wide 34"

:callaway-small: Fusion Zero 14 way stand bag

 

:EVNROLL: ER5  & :yes-small: Tracy putters will be sitting in a :titelist-small: Hybrid 5 bag, just waiting for the :odyssey-small: to misbehave.

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Retrogolfer36 said:

Not to mention wedges now cost about $150 and wear out in 2-3 years.  I think that for the average person, having to drop $450 just on wedges every couple of years is kind of unrealistic.  I have more disposable income than a lot of people that I know and have no kids and I cringe at the thought of spending that much just on wedges.  I couldnt imagine if I had a few kids and had to try to talk my wife into letting me drop that much money on wedges every 2 years, in addition to trying to get her let me spend $1200 on irons, $500 on a driver or $400 on a putter.  If you want to have nice clubs and want to stay somewhat up to date on technology, its kind of a big committment.

Wedges wear out in 2-3 years? That is nuts. Are they so super soft now? You can regrove them.

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42 minutes ago, tchat07 said:

My biggest issue with the loft jacking is that you have a pitching wedge that is in the low 40 degree range. If you have that you'll almost have to be carrying 4 wedges to tighten the gaps.

Sent from my SM-G950U using MyGolfSpy mobile app
 

Do you hit your 9i or hybrid better? 
there’s 14 spots in a bag and whether you have more long irons or short irons/wedges doesn’t matter and wedges are cheaper to buy and most gi/sgi sets offer matching wedges

10 minutes ago, viking said:

Wedges wear out in 2-3 years? That is nuts. Are they so super soft now? You can regrove them.

The grooves on non set wedges wear out faster in general because they get more use than and iron. 


Driver: Titleist 917D3 9.5 with Graphite Design MAD Pro 65g S

Wood: Titleist 917F2 with UST Mamiya Helium 5F4

Hybrid: Titleist 816H1 21 with Atmos Blue 85 S

Irons: Titleist 718 AP3 4i, 718 CB 5-6, MB 7-9 with KBS $ Taper 125

Wedges: Vokey SM7 46/50/54/60 with DG s200

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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My clubs are 35 tears old are like brand new, never re-gripped, still tacky (I wash them and use vinegar with a brush several times a season) but I don't play much eg. go out 15-20 times a year play 20-30 games last few years before that was like 5-10 games a year. Don't play in really hot or really cold weather. Always keep them very clean.

Except one year I did a lot, 1997 and 1998 as I won a season golf pass to a very nice course about an hour away one way.

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Wedges wear out in 2-3 years? That is nuts. Are they so super soft now? You can regrove them.
That's the guideline. You cant regroove them though, unless you are going to refill the face. Those groove sharpener tools dont do anything but dig the grooves deeper, which will do nothing to restore the sharpness of the grooves.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk


Whats in my Sun Mountain 2.5+ stand bag?:

Woods: Titleist 913FD 13.5* 3-wood

Hybrid: Titleist 915HD 3H 

Irons: Titleist DCI 822 OS 6, 8 and PW

Wedges: Ping Glide 2.0 56*

Putter: Titleist Bullseye Standard

Ball: Titleist Pro V1

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