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Stronger Lofts - is this a Good or Bad Thing


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Those gaps looks pretty good. [emoji106]


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I think so too. The thing is the gapping is good, the spin numbers are good and the angle of descent is good. So in my opinion for my skill level jacked lofts are a good thing.


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1 hour ago, dthrog00 said:

In my opinion the golf manufacturer's strategy is to continue to make the launch monitor demo irons stronger lofted over time to demonstrate to the golfer, "This 7 iron goes longer than yours!".  I'm not saying it is outright deceptive, but it isn't necessarily honest either.  There's a lot of people who aren't knowledgeable enough to understand 7 irons vary greatly.  

The golf companies have to drive sales to make money for their shareholders.  I get that.  Personally, I'm not interested in those clubs but have nothing against those who are. 

Dave

Golf manufacturers are in the business of selling clubs. The consumer has the choice to buy or not buy. If they don’t buy the manufacturer stops making the product because there’s no market for it. If a consumer chooses to not educate themselves on product that’s not an issue, it’s a choice and it doesn’t apply just to golf. 
 

There are members in various forums that are more educated on club designs, lofts and golf i general than the average consumer. They also buy these products because it’s makes the game easier and more enjoyable.
 

Everyone complaining about manufacturer and fitter being deceptive all seem to forget as technology changes designs change and when designs change specs change. The clubs from the 60s are different than the 50s, the 70/ from the 60s and so on. Unless you back to the day golf started you aren’t playing traditional lofts and you are playing traditional balls, you aren’t dressing traditionally. 
 

It simple don’t like something don’t buy it, don’t want to use something don’t use it, don’t like a certain style piece of clothing don’t wear it. Don’t Iike a certain color shoe don’t wear them.

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Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

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Golf manufacturers are in the business of selling clubs. The consumer has the choice to buy or not buy. If they don’t buy the manufacturer stops making the product because there’s no market for it. If a consumer chooses to not educate themselves on product that’s not an issue, it’s a choice and it doesn’t apply just to golf. 
 
There are members in various forums that are more educated on club designs, lofts and golf i general than the average consumer. They also buy these products because it’s makes the game easier and more enjoyable.
 
Everyone complaining about manufacturer and fitter being deceptive all seem to forget as technology changes designs change and when designs change specs change. The clubs from the 60s are different than the 50s, the 70/ from the 60s and so on. Unless you back to the day golf started you aren’t playing traditional lofts and you are playing traditional balls, you aren’t dressing traditionally. 
 
It simple don’t like something don’t buy it, don’t want to use something don’t use it, don’t like a certain style piece of clothing don’t wear it. Don’t Iike a certain color shoe don’t wear them.

That’s why I only wear black shoes to funerals. I just don’t like them!

I’m happy with my AP2s which have 4 degree gaps up through the 6 iron, and I realize that when the time comes my lofts are likely to change. I’ll be fine with that as long as the performance (launch, spin, dispersion, more than distance) lines up and the gaps fit right.

I’ve already added another wedge for versatility in bounce and because I like using them around the green more than my AP2 GW, so I’m a little bunched up there anyway. The new T100s would slot in nicely. Haha


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59 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Golf manufacturers are in the business of selling clubs. The consumer has the choice to buy or not buy. If they don’t buy the manufacturer stops making the product because there’s no market for it. If a consumer chooses to not educate themselves on product that’s not an issue, it’s a choice and it doesn’t apply just to golf. 
 

There are members in various forums that are more educated on club designs, lofts and golf i general than the average consumer. They also buy these products because it’s makes the game easier and more enjoyable.
 

Everyone complaining about manufacturer and fitter being deceptive all seem to forget as technology changes designs change and when designs change specs change. The clubs from the 60s are different than the 50s, the 70/ from the 60s and so on. Unless you back to the day golf started you aren’t playing traditional lofts and you are playing traditional balls, you aren’t dressing traditionally. 
 

It simple don’t like something don’t buy it, don’t want to use something don’t use it, don’t like a certain style piece of clothing don’t wear it. Don’t Iike a certain color shoe don’t wear them.

I'm just expressing my opinion.  If you disagree that's fine.

Dave

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3 hours ago, Wedgie said:

Okay, I quickly hit 3 shots with the jacked loft Launchers. No warm up just hit 3 shots quickly with each club. To me spin and descent angles are pretty good.

 

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3 hours ago, Retrogolfer36 said:

Yeah but if they didn't change the lofts, everyone would be hitting skyballs that balloon.
What's wrong with hitting the ball longer if the trajectory is no higher?
Again, if you think left jacking is a scam, just buy blades or keep your old clubs. It seems pretty simple to me.
I like hitting the ball longer, shooting lower scores and having more fun.

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People still dont get this simple concept. Your ball flight didnt change, the number on the bottom did. If you have a 38 degree will launch the same wether or not an “8” is stamped on it or a “9”. So why change the numbers? Whyyyyyy? Its so they can say this 9 flies farther than your 9.  Buy it!

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7 minutes ago, Moose4282 said:

People still dont get this simple concept. Your ball flight didnt change, the number on the bottom did. If you have a 38 degree will launch the same wether or not an “8” is stamped on it or a “9”. So why change the numbers? Whyyyyyy? Its so they can say this 9 flies farther than your 9.  Buy it!

Simple physics one ball flies farther than the other means they have different ball flights. Also a simple fact, 99% of golf clubs in play are not the same length. Simply put you have more control over a shorter club. Which brings me to the fact that it simply isn’t only marketing bs.

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28 minutes ago, Moose4282 said:

People still dont get this simple concept. Your ball flight didnt change, the number on the bottom did. If you have a 38 degree will launch the same wether or not an “8” is stamped on it or a “9”. So why change the numbers? Whyyyyyy? Its so they can say this 9 flies farther than your 9.  Buy it!

People don't get this simple concept because it's apparently not that simple.  Yes, my 9i flies further than my old 9i.  In fact it flies about the same distance as my old 7i... both are 33º.  However, the ball flight did indeed change.  Yes, I'm hitting the ball the same distance as my old 7i, but I'm hitting that distance with a 9i trajectory not a 7i trajectory.  Now, who wouldn't want to hit their 9i into a green instead of their 7i??  There is more to stronger lofts on clubs than just the number on the bottom of the club.

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1 hour ago, THEZIPR23 said:

Simple physics one ball flies farther than the other means they have different ball flights. Also a simple fact, 99% of golf clubs in play are not the same length. Simply put you have more control over a shorter club. Which brings me to the fact that it simply isn’t only marketing bs.

See still dont get it. The SAME CLUB....

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1 hour ago, Kenny B said:

People don't get this simple concept because it's apparently not that simple.  Yes, my 9i flies further than my old 9i.  In fact it flies about the same distance as my old 7i... both are 33º.  However, the ball flight did indeed change.  Yes, I'm hitting the ball the same distance as my old 7i, but I'm hitting that distance with a 9i trajectory not a 7i trajectory.  Now, who wouldn't want to hit their 9i into a green instead of their 7i??  There is more to stronger lofts on clubs than just the number on the bottom of the club.

“Now, who wouldn't want to hit their 9i into a green instead of their 7i??”

Except that 9 iron has the loft stronger than an 8 iron... so are you REALLY hitting a 9 iron? Or are you hitting a 7 iron disguised as a 9? 

id love to see loft stamped on the bottom- what will it hurt?? it will never happen... 

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8 hours ago, dthrog00 said:

I'm just expressing my opinion.  If you disagree that's fine.

Dave

I do and that’s why I expressed mine.

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Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

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6 hours ago, Moose4282 said:

“Now, who wouldn't want to hit their 9i into a green instead of their 7i??”

Except that 9 iron has the loft stronger than an 8 iron... so are you REALLY hitting a 9 iron? Or are you hitting a 7 iron disguised as a 9? 

id love to see loft stamped on the bottom- what will it hurt?? it will never happen... 

Well not to many people want that. Ben hogan tried it and have now since gone back to numbers. The base majority of golfers have no idea what loft is on their irons and they don’t care. The only thing that care about is that when the pull an iron it goes the distance they expect it to. I play older guys that hit their 7i further now than they did when I started playing with them and yes it’s because the shafts are longer and the lofts are stronger. All they know is that new irons go farther and the only thing they care to know is that they can play the game still they know what club to pull for what distance even if that means they land on the green and the ball rolls off because they lasered the flag at X distance and that’s the club they are using. They don’t account for roll or where the pin is. They have all been playing golf as long as I’ve been alive yet they still play the same way every time out on the same 3 courses. When it’s all over they go in have a beer or two talk about all kinds of subjects and the meet up on the next scheduled tee time 3x/week. In the 20+ years I’ve played with them not one said the manufacturers are taking advantage of them. 

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Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

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On 4/27/2020 at 4:31 PM, Grand Stranded said:

Your friends bought the wrong style of irons.

They should’ve looked into how the iron was designed. My Rogue X irons havethe strongest lofts on the market, and are designed to also hit the ball high. I used a 5 hybrid for years, in fact I recommended the club to @ole gray a few months back, that’s how much I loved mine. The Rogue X 5 iron however, is my favorite club in the set. I ditched the 5 hybrid for it. 

Quick story... this Saturday I played in my league. The A players are on white tees (myself and my opponent) the B players were a tee up. One of the B players shotthe yardage for us on a par 3. He said it was 176 for us, 140 for them. Both of us on the whites play the Rogue X, and we hit 5 irons. He was hole high, about 15 feet left of the pin, and I was about 20 feet Long directly behind the flag.

When we got to the green, one of the B players asked what we hit. We told him 5 iron. He said that couldn’t have been playing 175. His friend told him, “you were the one who used the range finder...” 🙄

 

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There are a lot of hills to make your stand on.

"Jacked lofts are all marketing BS and are dumb" on a forum filled with golfers who eat up data and testing designed to test actual performance probably isn't that hill. 

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:wilson_staff_small:  D7 
:callaway-small:  GBB 3W (lofted to 4W)
:callaway-small: V-Series Heavenwood
:cobra-small: Baffler XL 5i-PW
:cleveland-small: CBX 54*
:ping-small: iWedge 58*
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8 hours ago, Moose4282 said:

People still dont get this simple concept. Your ball flight didnt change, the number on the bottom did. If you have a 38 degree will launch the same wether or not an “8” is stamped on it or a “9”. So why change the numbers? Whyyyyyy? Its so they can say this 9 flies farther than your 9.  Buy it!

Apparently you didn't get understand the simple evaluation I did at a recent fitting, and outlined in post #9.  I compared my old 34* club with a new 30* club.  They both launched at the same angle, descended at the same angle, but the new club went further.  It seems obvious that a new 34* club will launch higher than both of the clubs I tested, a new 34* will launch higher than the old 34*.   The launch angle was significantly influenced by the change in technology, not all 34* clubs launch at the same angle.

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21 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Apparently you didn't get understand the simple evaluation I did at a recent fitting, and outlined in post #9.  I compared my old 34* club with a new 30* club.  They both launched at the same angle, descended at the same angle, but the new club went further.  It seems obvious that a new 34* club will launch higher than both of the clubs I tested, a new 34* will launch higher than the old 34*.   The launch angle was significantly influenced by the change in technology, not all 34* clubs launch at the same angle.


Comparative trajectory isn't all that big of a deal.  There have always been higher trajectory irons, and lower trajectory irons (well, possibly not if you go back to the early days of golf, LOL).  Unless you were playing the absolute highest trajectory irons available at any given moment in golf history, you could always have found another set that hit higher.  If you naturally hit a lower to mid trajectory, it can be lovely.  If you already hit the ball higher, not so much. 

My perspective is that if you're hitting your iron set too high, perhaps it's not the iron set for you and you should find something that hits the ball lower, instead of delofting the set to match an arbitrary trajectory ideal.  If you hit the ball too low, do you increase lofts, or do you find an iron set that hits the ball higher?  If you had a driver that you had trouble keeping down, would you find one in that model at 6*?  Or would you look for a driver that natively hits the ball on a lower trajectory, more suited to your game?

The club number is irrelevant in the physics of the golf shot.  The golf shot is all about launch angle, ball speed, and spin rates (stating the obvious alert).  The ideals don't change relative to the club numbers on the sole; for each swing, a 36* club will fly X distance, and in theory, it will fly that distance for that swing consistently.  Why should you be more interested in it if the club says "8" on the sole than if it says "7" on the sole?   Or even a "6".  It's the same club in each instance.  You're not going to get more out of it. 

If all these irons fly so much higher, what happens at the bottom of the set?  Shouldn't the set gap wedges be unusable by now? 

 

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3w:  Cobra King LTD, RIP Beta 90, 42" -or- Stage 2 Tour, NV105 X, 42.5"
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1 hour ago, russtopherb said:

There are a lot of hills to make your stand on.

"Jacked lofts are all marketing BS and are dumb" on a forum filled with golfers who eat up data and testing designed to test actual performance probably isn't that hill. 


There's a certain irony to that, but perhaps not the one you think.  🙂

Personally, when Tom Wishon says "it's still a dishonest business practice to keep lowering lofts and justify it as being needed" I think I'll take him at his word.

Driver: TM Original One 11.5* set to 10*, Aldila NV75 X, 43.5" -or- SpeedZone, HZRDUS Black 75 6.5, 43.5"
3w:  Cobra King LTD, RIP Beta 90, 42" -or- Stage 2 Tour, NV105 X, 42.5"
2h or 3h:  TaylorMade Stage 2 Tour, Aldila NV105 S -or- RIP Alpha 105 S
Irons:  3-PW Mizuno MP37, Recoil Proto 125 F4 (reshaft in progress, slowly); 1i & 3-PW Golden Ram TW276, NV105 S; 2-PW Golden Ram TW282, RIP Tour 115 R
GW: Dynacraft Dual Milled CNC 52*, Steelfiber 125 S; Scratch 8620 DS 53*, Steelfiber 125 S
SW:  Ram TG-898 56*, DGX ss2x; Ram Tom Watson 55*, DGX ss2x; Wilson Staff PMP 58*, DGS; PM Grind 19 58*, stock shaft
Putter:  Mizuno TPM-2, 34"
Ball:  Wilson Staff Duo Professional, TM TP5

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1 minute ago, NRJyzr said:


There's a certain irony to that, but perhaps not the one you think.  🙂

Personally, when Tom Wishon says "it's still a dishonest business practice to keep lowering lofts and justify it as being needed" I think I'll take him at his word.

So you'll take Wishon, a guy who still needs to sell a product, at his word but not other designers and R&D folks (who also need to sell a product).

Got it.

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:wilson_staff_small:  D7 
:callaway-small:  GBB 3W (lofted to 4W)
:callaway-small: V-Series Heavenwood
:cobra-small: Baffler XL 5i-PW
:cleveland-small: CBX 54*
:ping-small: iWedge 58*
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4 minutes ago, russtopherb said:

So you'll take Wishon, a guy who still needs to sell a product, at his word but not other designers and R&D folks (who also need to sell a product).

Got it.


I haven't seen anything from other designers.  The promotional materials put out for each club aren't written by R&D.

Driver: TM Original One 11.5* set to 10*, Aldila NV75 X, 43.5" -or- SpeedZone, HZRDUS Black 75 6.5, 43.5"
3w:  Cobra King LTD, RIP Beta 90, 42" -or- Stage 2 Tour, NV105 X, 42.5"
2h or 3h:  TaylorMade Stage 2 Tour, Aldila NV105 S -or- RIP Alpha 105 S
Irons:  3-PW Mizuno MP37, Recoil Proto 125 F4 (reshaft in progress, slowly); 1i & 3-PW Golden Ram TW276, NV105 S; 2-PW Golden Ram TW282, RIP Tour 115 R
GW: Dynacraft Dual Milled CNC 52*, Steelfiber 125 S; Scratch 8620 DS 53*, Steelfiber 125 S
SW:  Ram TG-898 56*, DGX ss2x; Ram Tom Watson 55*, DGX ss2x; Wilson Staff PMP 58*, DGS; PM Grind 19 58*, stock shaft
Putter:  Mizuno TPM-2, 34"
Ball:  Wilson Staff Duo Professional, TM TP5

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16 minutes ago, NRJyzr said:


Comparative trajectory isn't all that big of a deal.  There have always been higher trajectory irons, and lower trajectory irons (well, possibly not if you go back to the early days of golf, LOL).  Unless you were playing the absolute highest trajectory irons available at any given moment in golf history, you could always have found another set that hit higher.  If you naturally hit a lower to mid trajectory, it can be lovely.  If you already hit the ball higher, not so much. 

My perspective is that if you're hitting your iron set too high, perhaps it's not the iron set for you and you should find something that hits the ball lower, instead of delofting the set to match an arbitrary trajectory ideal.  If you hit the ball too low, do you increase lofts, or do you find an iron set that hits the ball higher?  If you had a driver that you had trouble keeping down, would you find one in that model at 6*?  Or would you look for a driver that natively hits the ball on a lower trajectory, more suited to your game?

The club number is irrelevant in the physics of the golf shot.  The golf shot is all about launch angle, ball speed, and spin rates (stating the obvious alert).  The ideals don't change relative to the club numbers on the sole; for each swing, a 36* club will fly X distance, and in theory, it will fly that distance for that swing consistently.  Why should you be more interested in it if the club says "8" on the sole than if it says "7" on the sole?   Or even a "6".  It's the same club in each instance.  You're not going to get more out of it. 

If all these irons fly so much higher, what happens at the bottom of the set?  Shouldn't the set gap wedges be unusable by now? 

I was responding only to the claim that @Moose4282 made:

Quote

If you have a 38 degree will launch the same wether or not an “8” is stamped on it or a “9”.

which is simply not accurate.  I took the "number stamped on the bottom" completely out of my response in order to make it clear that his claim was inaccurate.  As far as how the new irons will influence the gaps at the short end of the bag, that's a question I have too, I don't have a ready answer.  That's something to work through, assuming I like the new clubs well enough to keep them in play.

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:callaway-small: Rogue SubZero, GD YS-Six X

:vokey-small: 52, 56, and 60 wedges

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