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Why do we take a backswing in golf?


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Maybe it is just the impact of social distancing and my club's course being closed, but I have been thinking of this question.

I mean, I don't really take a backswing with a baseball bat (I stand with the bat back) and I learned in tennis to get my racket back as early as possible.  And, so many of us make so many mistakes on backswings.  Would we be better off setting up with our club back (making sure we have turned our shoulders and hips, have our clubface pointing correctly, weight properly balanced (no reverse pivot), etc.) or is there a reason why a backswing is better?

Wouldn't it be easier to accelerate through the downswing without a backswing getting one off balance?

Edited by HAC
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Maybe it is just the impact of social distancing and my club's course being closed, but I have been thinking of this question.
I mean, I don't really take a backswing with a baseball bat (I stand with the bat back) and I learned in tennis to get my racket back as early as possible.  And, so many of us make so many mistakes on backswings.  Would we be better off setting up with our club back (making sure we have turned our shoulders and hips, have our clubface pointing correctly, weight properly balanced (no reverse pivot), etc.) or is there a reason why a backswing is better?
Wouldn't it be easier to accelerate through the downswing without a backswing getting one off balance?

There are lots of ways to get the club to the top. If you can hit the ball better starting at that point go ahead. Golf is a little different from other sports since the ball is moving in tennis and baseball

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6 minutes ago, HAC said:

Maybe it is just the impact of social distancing and my club's course being closed, but I have been thinking of this question.

I mean, I don't really take a backswing with a baseball bat (I stand with the bat back) and I learned in tennis to get my racket back as early as possible.  And, so many of us make so many mistakes on backswings.  Would we be better off setting up with our club back (making sure we have turned our shoulders and hips, have our clubface pointing correctly, weight properly balanced (no reverse pivot), etc.) or is there a reason why a backswing is better?

Wouldn't it be easier to accelerate through the downswing without a backswing getting one off balance?

However, if it worked it would be employed by very good golfers.  Success and failure leave clues.  That said, based on how far you need to hit it to play with your partners, it is possible it could work.  Golf swings require dynamics to move the club with some speed.  Measure rather than guess.  

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9 minutes ago, cnosil said:


There are lots of ways to get the club to the top. If you can hit the ball better starting at that point go ahead. Golf is a little different from other sports since the ball is moving in tennis and baseball

I must admit I have never done this, but I may try it on a driving range when I go back to the course.  Would be weird, but if it works it works.

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6 minutes ago, edteergolf said:

However, if it worked it would be employed by very good golfers.  Success and failure leave clues.  That said, based on how far you need to hit it to play with your partners, it is possible it could work.  Golf swings require dynamics to move the club with some speed.  Measure rather than guess.  

It is a question I would love to ask  Bryson DeChambeau.  Seems like he has thought of about everything on the golf swing.  But, I do plan on trying it when I can get back on a golf range and if it seems to work discussing it with the pro that gives me lessons.

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  • :titelist-small: 718 AP1 irons 6-gap Tensei ck Series AMC IR regular flex bent two degrees flat
  • :vokey-small: SM 7 Wedge 58 degrees M grind with 8 bounce Steel shafts wedge flex bent 2 degrees flat
  • :ping-small: Glide 3 52.12 and 56.14 with  Alta CB Red Regular Flex shaft bent 2 degrees flat
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George gankas doesn’t use a back swing at least with driver. He set wrists, lift arms and rotates. 
 

One could do the nick price drill and then rotate to the top. 
 

The backswing is a series of movements and length. 
 

Baseball backswing you are presetting your weight and pressure as well as your starting point for the transition and into contact. There’s drills in golf that are similar to the baseball swing where you place the club on the shoulder, rotate, push arms away then transition into the downswing.

 

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Maybe it is just the impact of social distancing and my club's course being closed, but I have been thinking of this question.

I mean, I don't really take a backswing with a baseball bat (I stand with the bat back) and I learned in tennis to get my racket back as early as possible.  And, so many of us make so many mistakes on backswings.  Would we be better off setting up with our club back (making sure we have turned our shoulders and hips, have our clubface pointing correctly, weight properly balanced (no reverse pivot), etc.) or is there a reason why a backswing is better?

Wouldn't it be easier to accelerate through the downswing without a backswing getting one off balance?

Does Hideki Matsuyama make a backswing since he stops at the top???? Hmmmm.

 

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1 minute ago, PMookie said:

Does Hideki Matsuyama make a backswing since he stops at the top???? Hmmmm.

 

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Yes and his stop is a slightly longer pause than other players before the transition. 

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This video should explain why.  Sasho MacKenzie is probably one of the most respected in the industry.  He is a scientist who just so happens to focus on the golf swing.  It's the same concept as how one swings an ax or a hammer, or why a wind up punch is more powerful than a jab.  Or why one can jump higher/further when squating down and exploding up rather than just starting from the bottom of a squat.

 

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8 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

George gankas doesn’t use a back swing at least with driver. He set wrists, lift arms and rotates. 
 

One could do the nick price drill and then rotate to the top. 
 

The backswing is a series of movements and length. 
 

Baseball backswing you are presetting your weight and pressure as well as your starting point for the transition and into contact. There’s drills in golf that are similar to the baseball swing where you place the club on the shoulder, rotate, push arms away then transition into the downswing.

 

He sets wrists, lift arms and rotates is a back swing. Players use three forces to develop speed, and if they don't use them well they need time which equates to a longer back swing. Go view a shot put and a Scottish Games Shot put and discover why the difference in distance produced.  

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9 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Yes and his stop is a slightly longer pause than other players before the transition. 

He doesn't stop at all.  His lower body is doing something during the so called pause.  The eyes are deceiving.  

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4 minutes ago, edteergolf said:

He doesn't stop at all.  His lower body is doing something during the so called pause.  The eyes are deceiving.  

Agree and why I said it’s a longer pause to describe what was referred to as a stop.

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This topic is the vary reason, why mid to high handicap golfers remain so.  This stuff has been figured out all ready.  I'm all for exploration and challenging the status quo but so much has been done already that most players would dramatically improve if they just stuck to a plan.  Neither the plan or technique need to be all that correct to develop a pattern that can used to improve score.  

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37 minutes ago, HAC said:

It is a question I would love to ask  Bryson DeChambeau.  Seems like he has thought of about everything on the golf swing.  But, I do plan on trying it when I can get back on a golf range and if it seems to work discussing it with the pro that gives me lessons.

Smart people have discovered this well before BD.  He isn't the first person to ask questions. 

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27 minutes ago, jlukes said:

This video should explain why.  Sasho MacKenzie is probably one of the most respected in the industry.  He is a scientist who just so happens to focus on the golf swing.  It's the same concept as how one swings an ax or a hammer, or why a wind up punch is more powerful than a jab.  Or why one can jump higher/further when squating down and exploding up rather than just starting from the bottom of a squat.

 

I was going to mention  kinetic energy, but obviously Sasho did a much better job of explaining it 🙂

 

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1 hour ago, edteergolf said:

This topic is the vary reason, why mid to high handicap golfers remain so.  This stuff has been figured out all ready.  I'm all for exploration and challenging the status quo but so much has been done already that most players would dramatically improve if they just stuck to a plan.  Neither the plan or technique need to be all that correct to develop a pattern that can used to improve score.  

The "vary" reason.  Some of us spent our years learning how to spell.

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  • :titelist-small: 718 AP1 irons 6-gap Tensei ck Series AMC IR regular flex bent two degrees flat
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  • :ping-small: Glide 3 52.12 and 56.14 with  Alta CB Red Regular Flex shaft bent 2 degrees flat
  • Go back and forth between :cameron-small: Select Newport 2 putter 34 inch length and :ping-small: Sigma G Tyne putter 33 inch length
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2 hours ago, jlukes said:

This video should explain why.  Sasho MacKenzie is probably one of the most respected in the industry.  He is a scientist who just so happens to focus on the golf swing.  It's the same concept as how one swings an ax or a hammer, or why a wind up punch is more powerful than a jab.  Or why one can jump higher/further when squating down and exploding up rather than just starting from the bottom of a squat.

 

Seems like yet another trade-off between clubhead speed and control.  Thanks.

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  •  th.jpg.d6e2abdaeb04f007fd259c979f389de6.jpg  0311 Gen 5 Seven Wood Project X Cypher 50 5.5 shaft set to flat with weights set to fade.
  • :titelist-small: H818 Hybrid 25 degrees Tensei ck Series 60 HY regular flex shafts at C4 setting (flat for lefties)
  • :titelist-small: 718 AP1 irons 6-gap Tensei ck Series AMC IR regular flex bent two degrees flat
  • :vokey-small: SM 7 Wedge 58 degrees M grind with 8 bounce Steel shafts wedge flex bent 2 degrees flat
  • :ping-small: Glide 3 52.12 and 56.14 with  Alta CB Red Regular Flex shaft bent 2 degrees flat
  • Go back and forth between :cameron-small: Select Newport 2 putter 34 inch length and :ping-small: Sigma G Tyne putter 33 inch length
  • Bridgestone B X.
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14 minutes ago, HAC said:

Seems like yet another trade-off between clubhead speed and control.  Thanks.

If properly fit there should be no trade off between them. Getting a fitting optimized both 

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Yes and his stop is a slightly longer pause than other players before the transition. 

Right.
If you look at what the OP presents, he talks about a baseball swing. The assumption I take is that he’s referencing the bat not in motion, which I take as referencing the club here. In a baseball swing, the legs and lower body are moving as well. In this essence, taking the premise as stated, the discussion here should reference the club being stationary.
Therefore, Hideki would be the closest Pro to meeting the assumed notion.


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1 hour ago, PMookie said:


Right.
If you look at what the OP presents, he talks about a baseball swing. The assumption I take is that he’s referencing the bat not in motion, which I take as referencing the club here. In a baseball swing, the legs and lower body are moving as well. In this essence, taking the premise as stated, the discussion here should reference the club being stationary.
Therefore, Hideki would be the closest Pro to meeting the assumed notion.


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Most good baseball swings absolutely start with the hands moving away from the target before moving towards the ball.  It's not nearly as pronounced as the back swing in golf, but baseball players absolutely "load" their hands and their lower bodies backwards prior to making a move towards the ball.  In the concepts of kinetic motion and opposing forces that are referenced in the video I linked above is exactly why big-league hitters waggle there bat and load their body backwards prior to kicking their front leg forwards and swinging into the ball.

Image result for mlb swing slow motion gif | Motion, Mlb, Image

Albert Pujols Hitting Slow Motion Home Run Baseball Swing Batting ...

Image result for mlb swing slow motion gif | Mlb, Image, Motion

 

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3 hours ago, edteergolf said:

Smart people have discovered this well before BD.  He isn't the first person to ask questions. 

Exactly. How many years was he employed as a "scientist" before getting into golf? 5-10-15?

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Everybody else already nailed it here IMO. Good discussion all around. I would like to add that there are a TON of internal accelerations that you cannot see in a golf swing, and once you begin the club in motion it stays in motion along that path unless you are accelerating it (newtonian physics). There is no stop to the swing, just a change of direction coming from a net acceleration in the opposite direction of the clubs velocity. Also note, the more speed there is the more stable the swing is ALONG THE PATH YOU SET. This does not mean you will hit it straight, but rather the club will require more acceleration to move it off its inertial path. If the swing lacks speed small forces (accelerations bc the mass is constant) can throw the club offline, think of a putter and how easily it can be deflected. Velocity is your friend in golf. 

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Adding to what's already been said, I see a comparison between loading the golf swing and squatting. In a squat, you want to "bounce" out of the bottom. If you've ever squatted from pins (from a dead start at the bottom) it's a lot more difficult. I went back to a strength book I've read recently talking about the importance of this "bounce" in squatting (Rippetoe's "Starting Strength")

"...

1. The stretch reflex stores energy in the visceolastic components of the muscles and fascia, and this energy gets used at the turnaround out of the bottom.

2. The stretch tells the neuromuscular system that a contraction is about to follow. This signal results in more contractile units firing more efficiently, enabling you to generate more force than would be possible without the stretch flex.

..." (Emphasis mine)

Pretty interesting stuff! I believe I've also read that correlating speed to tempo, basically as long as your ratio of back swing to down swing is in a good spot, you can ramp up speed, maintaining that ratio, and as long as your technique doesn't fall apart you should be good. I think Rickie Fowler was used as an example of someone who's really cranked up his back and down swing, but maintained a good tempo/ratio between the two.

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2 hours ago, HAC said:

The "vary" reason.  Some of us spent our years learning how to spell.

  You aren't in second grade, you can write a more meaningful rebuttal. Am I wrong? 

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7 minutes ago, ncwoz said:

Adding to what's already been said, I see a comparison between loading the golf swing and squatting. In a squat, you want to "bounce" out of the bottom. If you've ever squatted from pins (from a dead start at the bottom) it's a lot more difficult. I went back to a strength book I've read recently talking about the importance of this "bounce" in squatting (Rippetoe's "Starting Strength")

"...

1. The stretch reflex stores energy in the visceolastic components of the muscles and fascia, and this energy gets used at the turnaround out of the bottom.

2. The stretch tells the neuromuscular system that a contraction is about to follow. This signal results in more contractile units firing more efficiently, enabling you to generate more force than would be possible without the stretch flex.

..." (Emphasis mine)

Pretty interesting stuff! I believe I've also read that correlating speed to tempo, basically as long as your ratio of back swing to down swing is in a good spot, you can ramp up speed, maintaining that ratio, and as long as your technique doesn't fall apart you should be good. I think Rickie Fowler was used as an example of someone who's really cranked up his back and down swing, but maintained a good tempo/ratio between the two.

Counter movements. One segment continues back (torso & arms) while the lower body is moving forward (linear, rotations/torque, & vertical) creating stored and released energy.  

 

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17 minutes ago, zrumble said:

Everybody else already nailed it here IMO. Good discussion all around. I would like to add that there are a TON of internal accelerations that you cannot see in a golf swing, and once you begin the club in motion it stays in motion along that path unless you are accelerating it (newtonian physics). There is no stop to the swing, just a change of direction coming from a net acceleration in the opposite direction of the clubs velocity. Also note, the more speed there is the more stable the swing is ALONG THE PATH YOU SET. This does not mean you will hit it straight, but rather the club will require more acceleration to move it off its inertial path. If the swing lacks speed small forces (accelerations bc the mass is constant) can throw the club offline, think of a putter and how easily it can be deflected. Velocity is your friend in golf. 

This is why that working a bit on speed also tends to correlate to improved accuracy.  There is a point of diminishing return.  

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2 hours ago, jlukes said:

Trade off? Not at all.  Any good coach will focus on speed first and then focus on reigning it in for more control.

I'm not so sure about that.  Faster speed with a poor or mismatched pattern will not go well.  

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