Finding your ball after putting another in play

[GolfSpy MPR]

Let's start here: I think we all know the official, tournament answer to this question. That's not what I'm looking for.

Yesterday, I was playing a round with @Kirke. I hit a bad tee shot, blocking myself behind the woods, so that I needed to hit a hook to reach the green. Instead of a hook, I hit a dead-pull low screamer into the woods. It went a surprisingly long way in without hitting anything, then caromed off a tree. It seemed obviously lost.

So I immediately dropped another ball, hit a bad shot to the right, and tried to salvage the hole.

As I'm addressing my next shot, Kirke yells to me that there's a Srixon ZStar XV right behind the green. I hit my shot and go up to the green. Sure enough, there's the ball. Given that that's the ball I was playing, it's a virtual certainty that (somehow) my ball rocketed through the woods, off a tree, and ended up behind the green.

What do you do when this happens? For me, in a casual round (but one that I'm tracking on Arccos for my unofficial handicap), I discard the shots I'd hit and resume playing my original ball. This is obviously outside strict adherence to the rules, but I'm interested in knowing if you all do the same or not.

[GolfSpy_SHARK]

2 minutes ago, GolfSpy MPR said:

Let's start here: I think we all know the official, tournament answer to this question. That's not what I'm looking for.

Yesterday, I was playing a round with @Kirke. I hit a bad tee shot, blocking myself behind the woods, so that I needed to hit a hook to reach the green. Instead of a hook, I hit a dead-pull low screamer into the woods. It went a surprisingly long way in without hitting anything, then caromed off a tree. It seemed obviously lost.

So I immediately dropped another ball, hit a bad shot to the right, and tried to salvage the hole.

As I'm addressing my next shot, Kirke yells to me that there's a Srixon ZStar XV right behind the green. I hit my shot and go up to the green. Sure enough, there's the ball. Given that that's the ball I was playing, it's a virtual certainty that (somehow) my ball rocketed through the woods, off a tree, and ended up behind the green.

What do you do when this happens? For me, in a casual round (but one that I'm tracking on Arccos for my unofficial handicap), I discard the shots I'd hit and resume playing my original ball. This is obviously outside strict adherence to the rules, but I'm interested in knowing if you all do the same or not.

Even in league play we allow these typically. Keeping pace of play hitting a ball up when you think its lost. But something like this when its clearly marked and you know it is your ball we typically allow people to play that ball, so you would have been lying 2?

[null]

Honestly? I would play and count my original ball

Obviously in a tournament, once you hit your provisional shot and play it a 2nd time, it becomes your official ball.  

If you were playing in a league or friendly money match, it would really be up to the "local rules" or your playing partner

 

[GolfSpy MPR]

Not sure that I totally buy the rationale in every case, but for me it's definitely one of those "give yourself the advantage the guys on Tour would have" situations, in my book. There's virtually zero chance that those playing at the highest stakes would face a situation in which their ball actually is in play but they don't know it.

[null]

Just now, GolfSpy MPR said:

Not sure that I totally buy the rationale in every case, but for me it's definitely one of those "give yourself the advantage the guys on Tour would have" situations, in my book. There's virtually zero chance that those playing at the highest stakes would face a situation in which their ball actually is in play but they don't know it.

Agreed. I use a similar thought during fall when I or a partner lose a ball right off the fairway under leaves.  Clearly we knew the shot stayed in play and was in a good position, but it's simply covered by fallen leaves and can't be found in the allotted search time.

[GolfSpy_SHARK]

1 minute ago, jlukes said:

Agreed. I use a similar thought during fall when I or a partner lose a ball right off the fairway under leaves.  Clearly we knew the shot stayed in play and was in a good position, but it's simply covered by fallen leaves and can't be found in the allotted search time.

Yes agreed on both these situations. There is no way you see a ball go in on a line and is covered by leaves or in somewhat deep rough that you wouldn't be able to find it on tour. When its agreed between all players we will drop without a stroke, I think its fair just depends on the group really.

[cnosil]

14 minutes ago, GolfSpy MPR said:

As I'm addressing my next shot, Kirke yells to me that there's a Srixon ZStar XV right behind the green. I hit my shot and go up to the green. Sure enough, there's the ball. Given that that's the ball I was playing, it's a virtual certainty that (somehow) my ball rocketed through the woods, off a tree, and ended up behind the green.

I like others are saying will just play the found ball and abandon the one I played after declaring it lost.   The reason I quoted the above is that I will only do it if I am certain that the one I found is my ball.  For me, brand and model is not a positive confirmation;  it has to have the mark that I put on the ball.  

[edteergolf]

Hitting five from around the green. No other choice.  Not to mention I would deserve the score after making a horrible decision at my second shot.  That said, there is no way in hell that I'm hitting the second ball without calling it a provisional.  

Edited May 7, 2020 by edteergolf
more thoughts

[PlaidJacket]

I don't look to the TV Pros and the 3-club tour for much of anything these days. Me and the guys I generally play with and compete - gamble with have some "rules" we allow amongst us. Some are strict rules of the game and others are loose. If you put a provisional ball in play and like Lukes mentioned I think; then make a second stroke on that provisional ball it's your official ball at that time. If by chance you make the second stroke on the provisional ball and then find and play the presumed lost ball that's a 2 shot penalty in stroke play for playing the wrong ball and I belive loss of hole in match play. Please correct me if necessary. 

[DiscipleofPenick]

I think these are fantastic common sense conclusions. The pros would lose some balls if there weren't 200 people watching every shot.

Take Dead Aim

[zrumble]

2 hours ago, GolfSpy MPR said:

Not sure that I totally buy the rationale in every case, but for me it's definitely one of those "give yourself the advantage the guys on Tour would have" situations, in my book. There's virtually zero chance that those playing at the highest stakes would face a situation in which their ball actually is in play but they don't know it.

Nailed it.
 

I once hit a drive that must have hit hardpan in the desert, down breeze, downhill, and ended up a foot off the fairway 385 yards from the tee. We searched the 5 minutes allotted under the old rule in a more traditional spot of 285-315 for me on that hole. Played a second ball with a different number, and while walking up to the hole found my first ball a pitch away from the green. As it was a men’s league event with no local rule in place, I was reduced to telling everyone about my awesome drive that resulted in a double bogey. 

[CarlH]

For me, you made a conscious decision to abandon the original ball, and the 2nd ball is now in play. In my group, you would not have been given the latitude to play the original ball in the case you mentioned, but they're a bunch of cut-throats when it comes to a dollar.  However, you're not playing a tournament and the only one affected by your decision is you.  If you're okay with whichever decision you go with, then fine. 

[DaveP043]

If I'm playing for fun, I'd do just the same.  If I'm playing for any money, I'd declare my second second shot a provisional.  It sounds like your ball may have been found before you played from beyond the original ball's probable location, so you could have been perfectly justified in playing the original ball.  Assuming you can positively identify it, and I always mark my golf balls, even for casual play.  But if I'm playing for even a dollar, we generally play by the actual rules, and that's what I'd do.

[MALyons31]

8 hours ago, GolfSpy MPR said:

Let's start here: I think we all know the official, tournament answer to this question. That's not what I'm looking for.

Yesterday, I was playing a round with @Kirke. I hit a bad tee shot, blocking myself behind the woods, so that I needed to hit a hook to reach the green. Instead of a hook, I hit a dead-pull low screamer into the woods. It went a surprisingly long way in without hitting anything, then caromed off a tree. It seemed obviously lost.

So I immediately dropped another ball, hit a bad shot to the right, and tried to salvage the hole.

As I'm addressing my next shot, Kirke yells to me that there's a Srixon ZStar XV right behind the green. I hit my shot and go up to the green. Sure enough, there's the ball. Given that that's the ball I was playing, it's a virtual certainty that (somehow) my ball rocketed through the woods, off a tree, and ended up behind the green.

What do you do when this happens? For me, in a casual round (but one that I'm tracking on Arccos for my unofficial handicap), I discard the shots I'd hit and resume playing my original ball. This is obviously outside strict adherence to the rules, but I'm interested in knowing if you all do the same or not.

Whether it’s me or not that this happens to, when I’m playing a round with the boyz and this happens, I always say play the original ball. We don’t have a crowd and spotters out there to help us. The same as if you hit a ball off the tee and you think it may be gone, but not sure, hit another one just in case (provisional) and if you find it, cool!, play it. If not, you already have another ball it there. 

[GolfSpy_SHARK]

2 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

If I'm playing for fun, I'd do just the same.  If I'm playing for any money, I'd declare my second second shot a provisional.  It sounds like your ball may have been found before you played from beyond the original ball's probable location, so you could have been perfectly justified in playing the original ball.  Assuming you can positively identify it, and I always mark my golf balls, even for casual play.  But if I'm playing for even a dollar, we generally play by the actual rules, and that's what I'd do.

Ball 19 for me with a shark logo #unmistakeable. Ya know for all the balls I lose gotta be able to make sure it’s mine 

[GolfSpy BOS]

Ball 19 for me with a shark logo #unmistakeable. Ya know for all the balls I lose gotta be able to make sure it’s mine 

Ain’t that the truth! Problem is you’ve lost so many in the same spot I can’t be sure the one you found is from the same day!

All joking aside, I would tend to rule play your original as you declared a provisional (even though you hit it twice) and hadn’t had the opportunity to find your first yet.

I also know that in my league there are a few guys that would rule that way if you played them and a few that would make you play the second ball.


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[TR1PTIK]

If I'm playing by myself, I'm likely to do the same as you @GolfSpy MPR. If I'm playing in a group, I'm more likely to stay strict to the rules, but I don't expect or otherwise require that of my playing partners for a casual round. When money's on the line though - or we have some sort of rules discussion pre-round - I absolutely expect everyone to adhere to the same rules.

[Peaksy68]

Practice or a social round, do whatever you want. A real round, follow the rules to the letter. I never keep score during a social hit or practice round. The vast majority of my golf is in official competition, and those are never solo. 

If you are serious about tracking your scores, following the rules fully will give a more accurate and realistic score.

I always mark my ball, whether for practice or competition. 

[Mtbryant01]

I had this exact same scenario happen. Hit driver off the tee, started it out above some trees and never came back. I look and look, but then decide to drop and move on (casual round, didn’t want to go re-tee). After my drop and hit, I was walking down the fairway and found my ball in the first cut of the rough between fairway and woods. I was just playing with some good buddies and they allowed me to play that as my second shot. 
 

I like the analogy of pros would have had an official or fan find it for them, so I don’t see any harm with taking Your second shot. This leads me to think about the first couple tourneys back and if fans will be allowed on the course or not. If not, I’m scared a lot of balls are going to be lost..
 

 

[chisag]

On 5/7/2020 at 2:56 PM, DaveP043 said:

If I'm playing for fun, I'd do just the same.  If I'm playing for any money, I'd declare my second second shot a provisional.  It sounds like your ball may have been found before you played from beyond the original ball's probable location, so you could have been perfectly justified in playing the original ball.  Assuming you can positively identify it, and I always mark my golf balls, even for casual play.  But if I'm playing for even a dollar, we generally play by the actual rules, and that's what I'd do.

 

... My opinion of you has been shattered. Now I imagine you probably don't use a pocket pen protector when you play either, something I had always envisioned. 

[Kenny B]

On 5/7/2020 at 7:14 AM, GolfSpy MPR said:

Let's start here: I think we all know the official, tournament answer to this question. That's not what I'm looking for.

Yesterday, I was playing a round with @Kirke. I hit a bad tee shot, blocking myself behind the woods, so that I needed to hit a hook to reach the green. Instead of a hook, I hit a dead-pull low screamer into the woods. It went a surprisingly long way in without hitting anything, then caromed off a tree. It seemed obviously lost.

So I immediately dropped another ball, hit a bad shot to the right, and tried to salvage the hole.

As I'm addressing my next shot, Kirke yells to me that there's a Srixon ZStar XV right behind the green. I hit my shot and go up to the green. Sure enough, there's the ball. Given that that's the ball I was playing, it's a virtual certainty that (somehow) my ball rocketed through the woods, off a tree, and ended up behind the green.

What do you do when this happens? For me, in a casual round (but one that I'm tracking on Arccos for my unofficial handicap), I discard the shots I'd hit and resume playing my original ball. This is obviously outside strict adherence to the rules, but I'm interested in knowing if you all do the same or not.

Should have listened to Kirke and checked that ball before hitting your "provisional" the second time.  Case closed.  Otherwise, be happy you found your original ball, put it in your pocket, and use it on the next hole if you wish.

[HeathS16]

Not sure that I totally buy the rationale in every case, but for me it's definitely one of those "give yourself the advantage the guys on Tour would have" situations, in my book. There's virtually zero chance that those playing at the highest stakes would face a situation in which their ball actually is in play but they don't know it.

Yes! When I’m in a bunker I give myself the “Patrick Reed Advantage”. Naturally I get good lies in all bunkers but seriously if it were me I would play the ball as if it weren’t lost and those other 2 shots never happened in a casual round. If I’m playing a match with my buddy, which we do pretty much every time we play, I would ask for his opinion for scoring since it impacts who buys who a Dr Pepper.


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[Rickp]

Hitting five from around the green. No other choice.  Not to mention I would deserve the score after making a horrible decision at my second shot.  That said, there is no way in hell that I'm hitting the second ball without calling it a provisional.  

Got to agree with the calling the second ball “provisional”. I got into that habit after seeing a similar weird situation years ago and a player in our group declared his 2nd a provisional and his first was found.


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[DaveP043]

13 hours ago, Kenny B said:

Should have listened to Kirke and checked that ball before hitting your "provisional" the second time.  Case closed.  Otherwise, be happy you found your original ball, put it in your pocket, and use it on the next hole if you wish.

You're right, of course, but I'm not certain from the description whether that second shot on the "provisional" was made from closer to the hole than the probable location of his first ball.  If not, he's still OK in playing the original ball, as long as he had identified that second ball as a provisional before he hit it.  And in casual play, I'd have taken the second shot on the provisional no matter where it was, in the interests of saving time.  The whole thing relies on the status of the second ball, either Provisional, or simply put into play after a stroke and distance penalty.  That's one reason I try to play within the rules as much as possible even in fun rounds, so I'm in the habit of doing things like marking my ball and declaring a provisional correctly.  Good habits pay off when I get into competitions.

[THEZIPR23]

24 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

You're right, of course, but I'm not certain from the description whether that second shot on the "provisional" was made from closer to the hole than the probable location of his first ball.  If not, he's still OK in playing the original ball, as long as he had identified that second ball as a provisional before he hit it.  And in casual play, I'd have taken the second shot on the provisional no matter where it was, in the interests of saving time.  The whole thing relies on the status of the second ball, either Provisional, or simply put into play after a stroke and distance penalty.  That's one reason I try to play within the rules as much as possible even in fun rounds, so I'm in the habit of doing things like marking my ball and declaring a provisional correctly.  Good habits pay off when I get into competitions.

Would it matter if he never initiated a search? Seems like even if he did announce second ball as provisional he never identified a probable location in first shot. 
 

As far as what I would do if out by myself, I would probably just play first ball as if nothing happened. 

[DaveP043]

4 minutes ago, THEZIPR23 said:

Would it matter if he never initiated a search? Seems like even if he did announce second ball as provisional he never identified a probable location in first shot. 

If he never initiated a search, the time limit for searching certainly hadn't elapsed, it never started.  I'm speculating, but he could have looked as he moved forward, and decided not to search.  Maybe the ball was either going to be in a good spot, or was going to be in a spot where he'd be dead, and he felt like he could see all of the "good spots" without really searching.  He did say the ball went a good long distance before hitting a tree, so its "probable location" could have been moderately close to the green.  The second ball was a "bad shot", so my interpretation is that the second ball was further from the green than the original was likely to be.  If all of that is true, he'd be OK proceeding with the provisional, as long as it was announced as a provisional.

Remember that a ball cannot be "declared lost" after a provisional is played.  So when he's moving to the "provisional" without searching, the original ball is still the ball in play if found.  He's not searching, so the clock never starts, and he's not delaying play.  The provisional only becomes the ball in play if it is played from a spot nearer to the hole than the probable location of the original.  I know I'm making interpretations and speculations beyond what was contained in the original post.

[ZMendle10]

On 5/7/2020 at 10:23 AM, jlukes said:

Agreed. I use a similar thought during fall when I or a partner lose a ball right off the fairway under leaves.  Clearly we knew the shot stayed in play and was in a good position, but it's simply covered by fallen leaves and can't be found in the allotted search time.

I could be completely wrong here but didn't the rules of golf update when it comes to leaves where if a ball is "lost" in the leaves it can be dropped where it is assumed to have landed without a penalty as long as the other players are in agreement?

[Cory O]

I could be completely wrong here but didn't the rules of golf update when it comes to leaves where if a ball is "lost" in the leaves it can be dropped where it is assumed to have landed without a penalty as long as the other players are in agreement?

Quick look through my rule book app doesn’t show anything of that sort officially, but IMO if it’s just a recreational round and your playing partners are in agreement, taking a free drop is reasonable if only for pace of play. Competition would be a lost ball and have to go back and re-hit.

[ZMendle10]

Much appreciated. Thank you for the response.

[Shapotomous]

48 minutes ago, ZMendle10 said:

I could be completely wrong here but didn't the rules of golf update when it comes to leaves where if a ball is "lost" in the leaves it can be dropped where it is assumed to have landed without a penalty as long as the other players are in agreement?

In casual rounds and local course run tournaments, most courses I play have a local rule for leaves allowing a drop in the area where the ball was thought to be.  

I played in a MD golf association tournament a few years ago that did not allow for the leaf rule and there were a lot of places it should have been used.  Lots of complaints after the round that day!  

Regarding Pro's & lost balls.....I am sure Harris English wishes there were spectators on the first hole yesterday.