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22 minutes ago, stuka44 said:

Your Welcome:  The issue as you and I have disagreed on before is that there is a still prevailing, sense of superiority, and a disdain by those who are rules czars, toward people like me who don't really care what the rules are supposed to be, unless I am playing someone for money(and then we'll just play by whatever rules the two of us agree upon), or in some sanctioned event.  Like some actual harm is being done somehow, "to the integrity of the game"   by encouraging people to just go out and play and have fun, and adhere to whatever rules they wish.  

And I would submit to you that logic, and common sense dictate to me that a rule of golf, which in real world practice does not apply to professionals (as I'm pretty sure the actual number of balls they lose in the rough is 0.00 something percent over the last 25 years) should not apply to non professionals.  The rules of golf are geared toward the professional game.  So to the ruling bodies I would submit that the pro game is real golf to them.   

And lastly I would point out that as evidenced by the responses I get to my suggestions that the weekend game would be best served by the setting aside MANY of the official rules of golf is evidence of the still prevailing elitist attitude that those of us who have never called a provisional in my life during a weekend round, and don't care if anyone else does(drop another, hit it, take a stroke don't take a stroke), and likely would not play with anyone ever again if that person   brought up that I didn't call provisional, are not worthy to play the game, is a large part of the problem golf is experiencing. 

 

I certainly don't feel like I'm superior in any way, and I believe if you look back you'll find that I support people playing by whatever rules they choose.  I get the impression that for you, and perhaps for others, the rules are somewhat oppressive, and following the rules decreases the amount of fun you can have playing golf.  For me, the rules are a framework to increase my enjoyment.  And if we're playing for a couple of dollars, its a whole lot easier to play by the rules, rather than figure out which rules apply, and which you want to bend or eliminate.  At one time, there were different rules at each and every golf club.  Its taken a long time, and about 280 years, to unify them into the single set we have today.  I don't really want to start to re-fragment them at this stage, let's all just use the one set.

To me, logic and common sense dictate that the experiences of 0.001% of the golfing world do not define the rules.  Witness the distance evaluations currently being made, the USGA/R&A are specifically trying NOT to make rules for all based on the skills of the golfing elite.  The rules have always applied to all golfers, and in fact many of the tour professionals would prefer to have rules different from the USGA/R&A version.  Of course, they can't agree on which changes should be made.

The "weekend game" has room in it for all kinds of players, and all kinds of observance (or non-observance) of the rules.  I understand that many people prefer not to worry too much about the rules, that's absolutely fine with me.  I don't care if you take mulligans, kick it out of divots, put it on a tee everywhere if you prefer, as long as you play at a reasonable pace and have fun.  Its when we compete with one another that rules are important. 

And this is the Golf Rules Discussion forum, its probably an inappropriate place to tell people who care about the rules, and who make an effort to understand them, that they're what's wrong with golf.

 

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If I'm playing for fun, I'd do just the same.  If I'm playing for any money, I'd declare my second second shot a provisional.  It sounds like your ball may have been found before you played from beyon

I certainly don't feel like I'm superior in any way, and I believe if you look back you'll find that I support people playing by whatever rules they choose.  I get the impression that for you, and per

Not sure that I totally buy the rationale in every case, but for me it's definitely one of those "give yourself the advantage the guys on Tour would have" situations, in my book. There's virtually zer

On 5/7/2020 at 8:56 PM, DaveP043 said:

If I'm playing for fun, I'd do just the same.  If I'm playing for any money, I'd declare my second second shot a provisional.  It sounds like your ball may have been found before you played from beyond the original ball's probable location, so you could have been perfectly justified in playing the original ball.  Assuming you can positively identify it, and I always mark my golf balls, even for casual play.  But if I'm playing for even a dollar, we generally play by the actual rules, and that's what I'd do.

I'm with Dave here. If for fun OK but anything at stake, rules is rules. 

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On 9/21/2020 at 5:57 AM, ZMendle10 said:

I could be completely wrong here but didn't the rules of golf update when it comes to leaves where if a ball is "lost" in the leaves it can be dropped where it is assumed to have landed without a penalty as long as the other players are in agreement?

In casual games and under the guise of winter rules, the "leaf rule" is a local rule.  You won't find any mention of it officially in the rules of golf.

 

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On 10/9/2020 at 2:13 PM, stuka44 said:

 

And lastly I would point out that as evidenced by the responses I get to my suggestions that the weekend game would be best served by the setting aside MANY of the official rules of golf is evidence of the still prevailing elitist attitude that those of us who have never called a provisional in my life during a weekend round, and don't care if anyone else does(drop another, hit it, take a stroke don't take a stroke), and likely would not play with anyone ever again if that person   brought up that I didn't call provisional, are not worthy to play the game, is a large part of the problem golf is experiencing. 

 

I wasn't even aware that golf was experiencing a problem.  Quite the contrary, it is more popular than ever.  The rules of golf are intended to standardize the game across all competitors.  They weren't written for professionals, as they existed long before the PGA began.  If you don't want to follow the rules of golf, there's no one going to stop you.  Play the game as you wish. As long as you're not playing in a sanctioned game, nobody really cares.

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While I don't maintain a handicap, I play alone a lot too, and sometimes I play to work on scoring better over a round of golf, focus, concentration, course mgmt.,etc.  When I do that, I have to play by the rules, otherwise, if I don't, what good is it? 

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  • 4 weeks later...
On 5/7/2020 at 9:23 AM, jlukes said:

Agreed. I use a similar thought during fall when I or a partner lose a ball right off the fairway under leaves.  Clearly we knew the shot stayed in play and was in a good position, but it's simply covered by fallen leaves and can't be found in the allotted search time.

I had a situation where I couldn't find my ball due to leaves. I hit a blind second shot and could not find the ball on the leaf-filled hill. We agreed to a leaf rule before the round to a free drop in the vicinity of where you thought the ball should be. As I couldn't find my ball, I dropped on the downslope of the hill where I thought my ball should be. I hit chunked this ball forward about 70 yards, and had about 100 yards into the green remaining. As we were walking up to my ball, I found my original shot about 50 yards past where I had dropped (it must have really caught the downslope of the hill). I declared that I found my original ball and finished the hole out with my original ball. Once I got to the green, another group member (who's play had carried him away from our hole onto the adjacent hole) confronted me as to why I had seemingly played two shots. He refused to allow me to play the original ball. What should I do in this case?

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I think if you’re ever someone who is going to say “I average X for 18 holes”, you need to be playing by the rules, or as closely as you can without sacrificing pace of play. If you don’t, your average is likely several strokes higher than stated. As someone who works hard at my game, it’s difficult not to get frustrated by someone who comes in bragging about a 74 when I know it was closer to an 84. Yes, that’s my issue and I’m working on letting it go, but I’m insanely competitive. It’s not tournament play, but if it’s all for fun and the rules don’t count, why keep a score? 

That being said, do I walk back to the tee when my ball goes OB? No. That’s a pace of play issue. I’m not a good enough golfer to be that neurotic about the rules, but I’ll take the penalty strokes and continue on. I think the USGA has made efforts to improve that for the weekend golfer, but there’s still a lot of simplification that could occur. 

I’m also not a fan of the “rules czar”. Mostly because they’re usually wrong. Go to https://www.usga.org/RulesQuiz/rules_quizzes2019.html and take the various levels of quizzes. Some of the rules are insanely obscure and I’d wager the majority of golfers would get a lot of them wrong. There are very few rules officials who score in the 90th percentile on the official USGA rules test. 

To me, that says we need simpler rules. 

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7 hours ago, Samwell1020 said:

I had a situation where I couldn't find my ball due to leaves. I hit a blind second shot and could not find the ball on the leaf-filled hill. We agreed to a leaf rule before the round to a free drop in the vicinity of where you thought the ball should be. As I couldn't find my ball, I dropped on the downslope of the hill where I thought my ball should be. I hit chunked this ball forward about 70 yards, and had about 100 yards into the green remaining. As we were walking up to my ball, I found my original shot about 50 yards past where I had dropped (it must have really caught the downslope of the hill). I declared that I found my original ball and finished the hole out with my original ball. Once I got to the green, another group member (who's play had carried him away from our hole onto the adjacent hole) confronted me as to why I had seemingly played two shots. He refused to allow me to play the original ball. What should I do in this case?

I believe if you think you have lost a ball and are dropping like you did with the leaf rule you are able to play the second ball up until the point where you get past your original shot. so in this case since you hit your dropped ball behind your original shot and found your original ball down the hill 50 yards further up you should be able to play your original shot without penalty as long as you pick up the 2nd dropped ball. 

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45 minutes ago, ZMendle10 said:

I believe if you think you have lost a ball and are dropping like you did with the leaf rule you are able to play the second ball up until the point where you get past your original shot. so in this case since you hit your dropped ball behind your original shot and found your original ball down the hill 50 yards further up you should be able to play your original shot without penalty as long as you pick up the 2nd dropped ball. 

If I am wrong somebody please correct me.

I answered this over  here:

Once you substitute a ball under the rules, that is your ball in play, the original can no longer be played.  In the case of a provisional, you may continue to play the provisional ball as long as you are no nearer the hole than the spot where you believe the original ball to be.  In the case mentioned,  @Samwell1020 thought his original ball was "back there", not 50 yards closer to the hole, so "back there" is as far as he could have played a shot with his provisional ball, if he had used one.

7 hours ago, jddaigneault said:

There are very few rules officials who score in the 90th percentile on the official USGA rules test. 

To me, that says we need simpler rules. 

Those Rules Quizzes are intended to identify true experts on the rules.  99% of golfers need only a basic understanding of the common rules to play the game properly.  Those basic rules aren't all that complicated, if a player is interested enough to spend even a little time learning them.  The really obscure issues come into play very very rarely, but they're necessary because those really rare circumstances DO happen, and the rules ARE needed.  And rules experts, like those who officiate rules in significant competitions, need know and understand a greater percentage of the rules in order to do their job efficiently.

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8 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:Those Rules Quizzes are intended to identify true experts on the rules.  99% of golfers need only a basic understanding of the common rules to play the game properly.  Those basic rules aren't all that complicated, if a player is interested enough to spend even a little time learning them.  The really obscure issues come into play very very rarely, but they're necessary because those really rare circumstances DO happen, and the rules ARE needed.  And rules experts, like those who officiate rules in significant competitions, need know and understand a greater percentage of the rules in order to do their job efficiently.

There’s actually a lot of not so obscure rules that come up fairly often in those quizzes. I coach hs golf and make my golfers take them throughout the year so they’re more familiar with the rules. What I mean by simplify, however, is what we saw in the recent batch of changes in 2019 where they simplified hazards. Same penalty, same approach. Where do I get two clubs, where do I get one? Where can I walk back as far as I want v where I need to drop specifically? What accounts a general penalty v a 1-stroke penalty? Those rules come up every round, we just rarely use them correctly. How often do you see someone take out their driver (longest club) and properly mark a drop? (I’m not advocating for this happening more, it’s just a required part of the rules). Why not make all drops within 2 club lengths? Why not make the imbedded ball rules the same tee to green? I think we saw great progress on this in 2019 and it speaks to what I believe is the theme of this thread; let’s improve pace of play and remove the confusion over rules, all of which add up to increased enjoyment of the game. 

I do recommend everyone download the USGA Rules of Golf app for their phones. Makes life a lot easier from a rules perspective!

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57 minutes ago, jddaigneault said:

There’s actually a lot of not so obscure rules that come up fairly often in those quizzes. I coach hs golf and make my golfers take them throughout the year so they’re more familiar with the rules. What I mean by simplify, however, is what we saw in the recent batch of changes in 2019 where they simplified hazards. Same penalty, same approach. Where do I get two clubs, where do I get one? Where can I walk back as far as I want v where I need to drop specifically? What accounts a general penalty v a 1-stroke penalty? Those rules come up every round, we just rarely use them correctly. How often do you see someone take out their driver (longest club) and properly mark a drop? (I’m not advocating for this happening more, it’s just a required part of the rules). Why not make all drops within 2 club lengths? Why not make the imbedded ball rules the same tee to green? I think we saw great progress on this in 2019 and it speaks to what I believe is the theme of this thread; let’s improve pace of play and remove the confusion over rules, all of which add up to increased enjoyment of the game. 

I do recommend everyone download the USGA Rules of Golf app for their phones. Makes life a lot easier from a rules perspective!

I'm with you, the 2019 rules are a significant improvement, things are much more consistent.  I like that for every relief situation you identify a Reference Point, and drop within a Relief Area.  The 1 clublength v. 2 clublength IS a little inconsistent, but really you can only get 2 CL in two situations (Unplayable Lie and Red Penalty Area), so its not that much to remember. Typically, a 1-stroke penalty is applied to rules breaches that can be "cured", the General Penalty applies to breaches that cannot be cured.  There is NOT a requirement to mark a Reference Point or Relief Area, only a requirement to drop in the appropriate area.  The Embedded Ball rule applies uniformly though the General Area (no longer limited to "closely mown areas"), but to me shouldn't apply in a Bunker or Penalty Area.

I'm glad you have your players take the rules quizzes, I think its a really positive thing.  I suggest that you also require them to read the Principles Behind the Rules of Golf, its just 80 pages, and should really help them to understand how the rules fit together as a whole.

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Bryson got robbed at the Masters.  Should have been a plugged ball and he shouldn't have had to re-tee.  the TV camera had a good enough line on it to give them a narrow area to look.
Love how the spotter found and gave Bryson his ball on the next hole.  Talk about rubbing salt in the wound.  😞

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8 hours ago, TMAC said:

Bryson got robbed at the Masters.  Should have been a plugged ball and he shouldn't have had to re-tee.  the TV camera had a good enough line on it to give them a narrow area to look.
Love how the spotter found and gave Bryson his ball on the next hole.  Talk about rubbing salt in the wound.  😞

In order to get free relief for a plugged ball, you have to find the plugged ball within the allotted search time.  Apparently the area didn't qualify as "temporary water" so the ball wasn't lost in an abnormal course condition.  How was he robbed, if the rules were correctly applied?

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On 11/6/2020 at 12:52 AM, jddaigneault said:

........Go to https://www.usga.org/RulesQuiz/rules_quizzes2019.html and take the various levels of quizzes. Some of the rules are insanely obscure and I’d wager the majority of golfers would get a lot of them wrong. There are very few rules officials who score in the 90th percentile on the official USGA rules test. 

To me, that says we need simpler rules. 

I agree with the comment simpler rules are needed. 

I clicked the link and took the basic 10 question quiz a number of times this morning and scored between 6 and 8.  I couldn't even understand the wording of the questions in a lot of cases.  🤔  Their use of multiple negative words used to lay out a scenario keeps me from figuring out what they are asking.   

I have no sympathy for Bryson yesterday or Harris English earlier this year for losing balls in the rough due to no gallery pointing it out for them.  I don't think they should get to use camera replays or commentary from broadcasters to help find it either.  Every golfer in the field does not get that benefit since all shots are not taped for review.  

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On 5/7/2020 at 8:14 AM, GolfSpy MPR said:

but I'm interested in knowing if you all do the same or not.

If it results in a better score, ABSOLUTELY 😆.  Yes, that is how I (our groups) play it.

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On 11/15/2020 at 8:58 AM, Shapotomous said:

I agree with the comment simpler rules are needed. 

I clicked the link and took the basic 10 question quiz a number of times this morning and scored between 6 and 8.  I couldn't even understand the wording of the questions in a lot of cases.  🤔  Their use of multiple negative words used to lay out a scenario keeps me from figuring out what they are asking.   

I figured since I often comment on Rules issues, I should take a few minutes of work time to take a quiz or two.  I took a 10-question Intermediate quiz, and got all correct, even having to make an educated guess on one of them.  I then took a 10-quesiton Advanced quiz, and got 8 of 10.  In each case, I did this without referring to the actual rules, I'm pretty proud of that. 

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