Inc. swing weight to reduce spin and launch angle

[Fullsendglf 31]

Hello all, I was hoping to get some help from other members who are more knowledgeable than I am about this stuff. I recently switch irons about a year ago from an old set of King Cobra pro MB 08' irons with project X 6.5 shafts. I played them for a long time. I upgraded to P7TW irons with the same project X 6.5 shafts. I had the lofts measured and they were exactly the same specs but after playing with these clubs for so long, I have found them to fly shorter than my previous irons by about 5-10 yards. I went to a GC Quad range to compare them and saw that the P7TW was launching higher by about 2 degrees and was spinning at 8500 rpms compared to the cobras at 7400rpms. Do you think that adding some lead tape or changing the head weight in the club to change the swing weight will help me reduce the launch and spin rates??? 

[cnosil 24,416]

Hello all, I was hoping to get some help from other members who are more knowledgeable than I am about this stuff. I recently switch irons about a year ago from an old set of King Cobra pro MB 08' irons with project X 6.5 shafts. I played them for a long time. I upgraded to P7TW irons with the same project X 6.5 shafts. I had the lofts measured and they were exactly the same specs but after playing with these clubs for so long, I have found them to fly shorter than my previous irons by about 5-10 yards. I went to a GC Quad range to compare them and saw that the P7TW was launching higher by about 2 degrees and was spinning at 8500 rpms compared to the cobras at 7400rpms. Do you think that adding some lead tape or changing the head weight in the club to change the swing weight will help me reduce the launch and spin rates??? 

I am assuming that you had the new clubs bent to match the cobra irons since spec lofts are weaker in the short irons.

Club technology has changed since 2008 and clubs launch higher. You will find debates about loft jacking and CoG movement but what you are seeing is part of what new clubs do.
Changing shafts might help with the launch conditions, but won’t drop 1000 rpms. Since iron heads are smaller it will probably be hard to move the weight around enough to impact launch characteristics; unlike a driver head.

When you bought the clubs did you do a comparison of old vs new on a launch monitor? If not, this is just how the clubs perform with your setup. You can try some things, but what you see is probably what you get.

[release 179]

I agree, the differences in the design of the heads is probably the cause for the change in the launch angle and the spin rate.

Modern irons are designed to "help"  the golf ball get up faster with more spin rate.  If you use the era matching golf balls with each of the set then I'd imagine you'll have closer performances between the two sets.

Just a side note to exam the interaction of the wider sole with different grind will change the launch angle from the turf interaction, especially if the club head contact the turf slightly before the golf ball.  This will be especially pronounced in the shorter irons.  If you lose distance more in the short irons, this might be it.

[scooterhd2 738]

you want to reduce launch and reduce spin? It's possible switching shafts can help. C Taper is a possibility. But I'd be looking at strengthening the lofts. 

[Fullsendglf 31]

20 hours ago, cnosil said:

I am assuming that you had the new clubs bent to match the cobra irons since spec lofts are weaker in the short irons.

Club technology has changed since 2008 and clubs launch higher. You will find debates about loft jacking and CoG movement but what you are seeing is part of what new clubs do.
Changing shafts might help with the launch conditions, but won’t drop 1000 rpms. Since iron heads are smaller it will probably be hard to move the weight around enough to impact launch characteristics; unlike a driver head.

When you bought the clubs did you do a comparison of old vs new on a launch monitor? If not, this is just how the clubs perform with your setup. You can try some things, but what you see is probably what you get.

Yes is did, I had the lofts and lie to match the cobra specs.

I did do a fitting with a Taylormade rep comparing my old irons to the P7TW before I ordered them. The thing with the fitting is that at the fitting, the demo iron was bonded to a tour issue X100 shaft. So I was unable to try the head on my shaft. With the X100 I was getting the ~8500 rpm and med/high launch so he recommended that I order the irons in my current shaft and that the differences between the X100 and 6.5 would lower the spin and launch.

So now after playing them for about a year, I think i might try and go with Project X 7.0, DG X7s, or something in the KBS range.

[Fullsendglf 31]

10 hours ago, scooterhd2 said:

you want to reduce launch and reduce spin? It's possible switching shafts can help. C Taper is a possibility. But I'd be looking at strengthening the lofts. 

I would be interested in switching shafts if I knew which one would be the perfect fit. I love a stout feeling shaft that doesn't flex on my down swing. As for strengthening the lofts, I play my lofts a degree stronger at: 4i-23*, 5i-27*, 6i-30*, 7i-34*, 8i-38*, 9i-42*, PW-46* If I were to go stronger I would have a very large gap between my Pw(46*) and Gw(52*)

[scooterhd2 738]

6 hours ago, Fullsendglf said:

I would be interested in switching shafts if I knew which one would be the perfect fit. I love a stout feeling shaft that doesn't flex on my down swing. As for strengthening the lofts, I play my lofts a degree stronger at: 4i-23*, 5i-27*, 6i-30*, 7i-34*, 8i-38*, 9i-42*, PW-46* If I were to go stronger I would have a very large gap between my Pw(46*) and Gw(52*)

What ball are you playing?

 

[azstu324 4,318]

If you happen to have a PGATSS or Golf Galaxy, or any other retail store with fitting capabilities AND decent staff, you could go set up the P7TW's with the your current shaft and lie. Take about 15 swipes, get the avg data. And then start plugging in other shafts to see where they take you. I know you've had the TW's adjusted but the outcome should be fairly relative. Overall whichever shaft you see the net results you're after, should translate to your current set. -/+

 

[Fullsendglf 31]

What ball are you playing?
 

I play the TP5


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[release 179]

On 5/22/2020 at 2:14 AM, Fullsendglf said:

I would be interested in switching shafts if I knew which one would be the perfect fit. I love a stout feeling shaft that doesn't flex on my down swing. As for strengthening the lofts, I play my lofts a degree stronger at: 4i-23*, 5i-27*, 6i-30*, 7i-34*, 8i-38*, 9i-42*, PW-46* If I were to go stronger I would have a very large gap between my Pw(46*) and Gw(52*)

In general, if everything else is the same, the stiffer and heavier the shaft, the lower the launch angle and the spin rate.  

The modern iron heads are lighter in weight, same theory they implied as the driver, being lighter , faster longer.......... finding a shaft which is heavier at the same time balance with the lighter head weight will be a daunting effort.

Want to play a modern iron ?  Some modern blade design are more forgiving then the vintage models.

[FrogginBullfish 1,789]

I play the TP5


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Try a different ball. You're going to have an easier time reducing spin with a different ball than a shaft change.

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[aerospace_ray 789]

So from reviewing your comments I think its the difference in club head and possibly face thickness could be what contributes to higher numbers IF your specs are identical (loft/lie/shaft).

Pretty sure the King Cobra pro MB 08 and your new  P7TW have different weight (cg) designs and face thickness profiles. That can contribute to flight/spin numbers differences. 

Or the new "like" shafts are softer tipped.... My experience with adding weight to club heads is that a little is ok but if you get crazy, the shaft plays weaker due to increase weight of club head. That will definitely contribute to higher numbers (spin/launch). 

 

On 5/21/2020 at 12:45 AM, Fullsendglf said:

King Cobra pro MB 08

 

[jlukes 16,201]

Tiger loves all the spin he can handle because he can lean the handle forward and take it off whenever he wants. 

No surprise the irons he designed spin a lot. 

[zrumble 551]

5 hours ago, jlukes said:

Tiger loves all the spin he can handle because he can lean the handle forward and take it off whenever he wants. 

No surprise the irons he designed spin a lot. 

Agreed. I had a feeling with that tungsten weight near the sole, a really compact shape, and Tiger’s states preferences that these would be high launch, high spin. Tiger is a master of manipulating the face to get the ballflight he wants. 
 

A shaft can help you deliver the club differently to the ball, and a stiffer shaft does tend to keep the forward kick of the head to a minimum.
 

Instead of matching loft specs have you thought of bending them 1 degree strong? It will make a bigger difference IMO than anything other than a massively different feeling shaft. I understand if you don’t want loft creep, but not all irons are created equal. 

[Fullsendglf 31]

Thanks to everyone for your comments and replies. I appreciate you all for your input. I've decided that before I commit to changing shafts, I'm going to work on my swing and play around with some lead tape. Im going to see if I can shallow out my attack angle and reduce dynamic loft. As for the lead tape, I'm just going to temporarily attach them to the head using some tape and see how it works. It won't be anything too crazy because I love they way they feel. Probably somewhere in the range of 2-5 grams per head higher up towards the top line. 

[FrogginBullfish 1,789]

Lead tape isn't going to have the benefit you're looking for. You'll be raising the CG by placing lead tape higher on the head, which will lower your launch through the gear effect but at the same time you will be increasing spin for the same reason.

A swing change is a more likely route to achieve the launch and spin windows you're hoping for, but as I mentioned earlier, you might be able to get closer with just a ball change. Something like the Titleist AVX would be a good place to start.

Thanks to everyone for your comments and replies. I appreciate you all for your input. I've decided that before I commit to changing shafts, I'm going to work on my swing and play around with some lead tape. Im going to see if I can shallow out my attack angle and reduce dynamic loft. As for the lead tape, I'm just going to temporarily attach them to the head using some tape and see how it works. It won't be anything too crazy because I love they way they feel. Probably somewhere in the range of 2-5 grams per head higher up towards the top line. 

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[Fullsendglf 31]

16 hours ago, FrogginBullfish said:

Lead tape isn't going to have the benefit you're looking for. You'll be raising the CG by placing lead tape higher on the head, which will lower your launch through the gear effect but at the same time you will be increasing spin for the same reason.

A swing change is a more likely route to achieve the launch and spin windows you're hoping for, but as I mentioned earlier, you might be able to get closer with just a ball change. Something like the Titleist AVX would be a good place to start.

 

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I've played the AVX and tested many other balls such as the chrome soft, chromsoft x, snell, srixon, etc. all on launch monitors and still saw high amounts of spin. At this point the ball is the least of my worries as manufactures are so good now-a-days that they all practically perform the same. Specifically with the 2020 AVX ball that came out in october, I was spinning them lower by a fraction at around 8200 without reducing launch angle. But when it came to hit my woods and driver it was a different story where i couldn't get enough spin to keep the ball in the air. Spinning around 1700 with my driver.

[FrogginBullfish 1,789]

Swing changes are your best bet then.

I've played the AVX and tested many other balls such as the chrome soft, chromsoft x, snell, srixon, etc. all on launch monitors and still saw high amounts of spin. At this point the ball is the least of my worries as manufactures are so good now-a-days that they all practically perform the same. Specifically with the 2020 AVX ball that came out in october, I was spinning them lower by a fraction at around 8200 without reducing launch angle. But when it came to hit my woods and driver it was a different story where i couldn't get enough spin to keep the ball in the air. Spinning around 1700 with my driver.

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