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data re. Tony Covey's matte balls claim?

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Tony Covey stated very emphatically on this week's No Putts Given that matte balls lose more spin / launch higher than non-matte balls when wet.  

see 37:54 of   https://mygolfspy.com/warning-are-you-playing-this-golf-ball-noputtsgiven-38/          

Is there any data anywhere to support this?  

I have seen data that all balls lose spin and launch higher when wet.  But specifically matte more so than non-matte?  Opinions and personal observation are great, but actual data would be beneficial to prove or disprove this.  

I have no reason to believe or disbelieve this, but have not seen anything anywhere on this, and would obviously inform future purchases.  

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Posted (edited)

Thanks, 03.  That's probably one of the places I saw data on wet shots, good info for sure.  Also the T X G guys did some testing.  But no data on the difference of matte vs gloss, just wet vs dry.  

I am interested because I've always liked the Maxfli urethane balls, and they now have a matte white version.  If there is any actual quantifiable difference, it may be minimized or eliminated with a urethane cover, and with white (there is data to suggest colored dye also changes performance characteristics). 

So, if someone has a launch monitor, a repeatable swing, some Maxfli Tour (or Tour X) in both gloss and matte white (or any other brand that make both a gloss white and matte white version of the same urethane ball), a spray bottle, and the time to do some statistically significant testing with say a 9-iron, that would be super dope! 

Edited by 11iron

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39 minutes ago, 11iron said:

Thanks, 03.  That's probably one of the places I saw data on wet shots, good info for sure.  Also the T X G guys did some testing.  But no data on the difference of matte vs gloss, just wet vs dry.  

I am interested because I've always liked the Maxfli urethane balls, and they now have a matte white version.  If there is any actual quantifiable difference, it may be minimized or eliminated with a urethane cover, and with white (there is data to suggest colored dye also changes performance characteristics). 

So, if someone has a launch monitor, a repeatable swing, some Maxfli Tour (or Tour X) in both gloss and matte white (or any other brand that make both a gloss white and matte white version of the same urethane ball), a spray bottle, and the time to do some statistically significant testing with say a 9-iron, that would be super dope! 

I believe the testing MGS did in 2019, and based on the NPG episode they're seeing it again in 2020. They used a robot, why would someone with a launch monitor and a repeatable swing be better?


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Posted (edited)

Looking for data, Middler.  MGS didn't provide any wet matte vs. dry matte data in comparison to wet gloss vs dry gloss.  Agreed data via a robot swing would be super.  

Edited by 11iron

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55 minutes ago, 11iron said:

Looking for data, Middler.  MGS didn't provide any wet matte vs. dry matte data in comparison to wet gloss vs dry gloss.  Agreed data via a robot swing would be super.  

No,  they did not provide specific numbers but they provided wet vs dry numbers and then said that matte finish balls were more significantly impacted. 

From this article (https://mygolfspy.com/most-wanted-golf-ball/) :

DID YOU KNOW: A golf ball will perform differently if it is wet vs. when it’s dry. Golfers need to know how much difference there is and why it matters.

WET WEDGE SHOTS:

  • Carry increased by approximately 2.5 yards
  • Spin decreased by approximately 2500 RPM
  • Launch angle increased by over 5°
  • Peak height increased by 5 yards

Also, cheaper (2-piece) balls and matte finish balls are affected more significantly by moisture.

Also,  the clubs used would have an impact on specific numbers

 

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Posted (edited)

Yep, that's the article, csnosil.  No data provided.  Has anyone seen/generated data anywhere to support the matte assertion?  

Edited by 11iron

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3 minutes ago, 11iron said:

Yep, that's the article, csnosil.  No data provided.  Has anyone seen/generated data anywhere to support the matte assertion?  

That is all that has been published.  


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Yep, that seems to be all that MGS has published.  Hoping if this is really a thing, someone has seen data somewhere...or maybe even has done some measuring on their own.  

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6 hours ago, 11iron said:

Yep, that seems to be all that MGS has published.  Hoping if this is really a thing, someone has seen data somewhere...or maybe even has done some measuring on their own.  

I'm guessing when the ball lab testing wraps up, there will be some kind of data published.  From the sound of the podcast any data that exists outside of MGS testing isn't available to the public.  


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Thanks, 03.  That's probably one of the places I saw data on wet shots, good info for sure.  Also the T X G guys did some testing.  But no data on the difference of matte vs gloss, just wet vs dry.  
I am interested because I've always liked the Maxfli urethane balls, and they now have a matte white version.  If there is any actual quantifiable difference, it may be minimized or eliminated with a urethane cover, and with white (there is data to suggest colored dye also changes performance characteristics). 
So, if someone has a launch monitor, a repeatable swing, some Maxfli Tour (or Tour X) in both gloss and matte white (or any other brand that make both a gloss white and matte white version of the same urethane ball), a spray bottle, and the time to do some statistically significant testing with say a 9-iron, that would be super dope! 


Good question 11iron, I also play the Maxfli Tour balls. Some of them are Matte finish so I bought several dozen and included the matte finish. To my game, I cannot discern any difference, just that you cannot clean the mattes once they have been played.


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I will test the wet matte ball theory tonight on SkyTrak.  I have Wilson Professions in both glossy and matte in stock at home.  Not Maxfli but at least will give everyone an idea of any differences between glossy and matte.  Any suggestions for testing?  I plan to just hit them dry then soak them in water and repeat.  I'm not going thru the entire bag but will hit full wedges.

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55 minutes ago, Wedgie said:

I will test the wet matte ball theory tonight on SkyTrak.  I have Wilson Professions in both glossy and matte in stock at home.  Not Maxfli but at least will give everyone an idea of any differences between glossy and matte.  Any suggestions for testing?  I plan to just hit them dry then soak them in water and repeat.  I'm not going thru the entire bag but will hit full wedges.

Keep us updated, interested in what you find out.


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Here is what I will do:

1. Dry ball glossy

2. Wet ball glossy

3. Wet ball and wet wedge glossy

4. Dry matte ball 

5. Wet matte ball

6. Wet ball and wet wedge matte

Let me know if more needs to be done?

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Wedgie said:

>> Here is what I will do:

 

>> Here is what I will do:

Awesome, Wedgie!  

>> Let me know if more needs to be done?

You mentioned soaking in water - the testing I've seen (MSG photo and T X G videos) uses a spray bottle. 

The only other input I would make is to make enough swings to make it statistically significant - it's been a while since my Statistics classes, so won't even try to bust out any formulae - as a wag at least a dozen of each?   If that's too many swings for you, could maybe combine 2 with 3, and 5 with 6, and make your best guess re. moisture amount on a dewy morning - maybe a single spray on both ball and club?  

Definitely don't have to go through full bag - probably one club is enough, even preferable to get more similar swings (sample size) - full swing 9-iron as midway between long irons and short wedges? 

Cool, will be informative as to matte ball performance. 

Edited by 11iron

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21 minutes ago, 11iron said:

>> Here is what I will do:

Awesome, Wedgie!  

>> Let me know if more needs to be done?

You mentioned soaking in water - the testing I've seen (MSG photo and T X G videos) uses a spray bottle. 

The only other input I would make is to make enough swings to make it statistically significant - it's been a while since my Statistics classes, so won't even try to bust out any formulae - as a wag at least a dozen of each?   If that's too many swings for you, could maybe combine 2 with 3, and 5 with 6, and make your best guess re. moisture amount on a dewy morning - maybe a single spray on both ball and club?  

Definitely don't have to go through full bag - probably one club is enough, even preferable to get more similar swings (sample size) - full swing 9-iron as midway between long irons and short wedges? 

Cool, will be informative as to matte ball performance. 

Okay, I will dig up a spray bottle and spray the balls and do a dozen good shots with each and see what I get.  

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Alright I’m going in. Will report back in the next couple of hours.

IMG_1143.JPGIMG_1144.JPG


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Wedgie

 

Driver - XXIO X Driver 9.5

:cleveland-small: - Launcher Turbo 2 hybrid

:cobra-small: - F9 One Length 3-G

:cleveland-small: - CBX 52 and 56

:EVNROLL: - ER 1.2

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Play Right

 

 

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Tested the Wilson Duo Professional glossy vs. Wilson Duo Professional matte finish in dry and wet comparison. I hit 12 shots with each scenario using my 9 iron. In the wet conditions I sprayed the ball before each shot with the sprayer then dried after each shot. For wet with club I sprayed the ball and club face then dried both after each shot. I was pretty dialed in and only had to kick out 2 shots and they were 2 of my last 4. Garage golf is more fun when it’s 40 degrees outside than when it is upper 70s so I was pooping out.

 

Comparing balls on SkyTrak can be difficult so you need to understand the key to each club but remember I only hit the 9 iron:

 

4 iron = matte ball wet ball and wet club face

5 iron = matte ball wet ball only

6 iron = matte ball dry

7 iron = glossy ball wet ball wet club face

8 iron = glossy ball wet ball only

9 iron = glossy ball dry

 

It is also important to note that SkyTrak only measures ball speed, launch, back spin and left/right spin. Everything else is a calculation.

 

IMG_0166.thumb.JPG.60376c65cd157a6891f0c6d27700939a.JPG

 

Without diving into the data too much at first brush over the matte ball seems more consistent in wet and dry conditions. If it is completely dry then I’d say the glossy finish is the way to go. I’m sure MGS will provide much more in depth info but here is a preview.

 

Any questions let me know?

 

 

 

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Wedgie

 

Driver - XXIO X Driver 9.5

:cleveland-small: - Launcher Turbo 2 hybrid

:cobra-small: - F9 One Length 3-G

:cleveland-small: - CBX 52 and 56

:EVNROLL: - ER 1.2

Top Flite Gamer

Play Right

 

 

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Wow Wedgie you are the man, great test, thanks!  

My three takeaways:

- In dry conditions, the matte ball spins >800rpm less and launches ~2 degrees higher than the gloss ball.  This makes the two balls, even though they're both Wilson Duo Professionals, designed and manufactured the same except for the paint coat, in effect two different balls.  One isn't better than the other, depends on what your game needs.  So lets me know the Maxfli Tour (and Tour X, and other balls with both a glossy and matte version) probably differs between its matte and glossy versions as well.  Doesn't affect the validity of wet vs. dry comparison at all, since %s can be used.  

- Your data confirms what MGS and T X G data has previously shown -- in wet conditions, launch increases, spin decreases, distance increases, and apex increases.  

- In wet conditions, the matte cover does exactly the opposite of what Tony Covey stated - the matte cover is less affected by moisture, much less in fact.  Launch (direct SkyTrak measurement) increases 6% (wet ball) and 7% (wet club and ball) for matte, but 14% (both conditions) for glossy (again, %s used since the baselines are different; this is the only way to measure relative effect).  Backspin (the other direct SkyTrak measurement) is even more disparate - matte -22%/-23% vs. glossy -28%/-39%.  So, according to the data, matte urethane balls are much more consistent in wet conditions, and affected by moisture less significantly than glossy. 

Is this the be-all end-all test - no.  But very valuable, thank you Wedgie - and (re)confirms that data is king, and unsupported claims should be questioned and tested.  Of course, now I have to buy some glossy Maxfli Tours and Tour Xs to compare on course with my mattes...

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