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I hate to pile on a bit late in the game here but I would applaud the OP for taking the short term approach while encouraging him to look at the long term.  Like it or not Distance is the clearest determinant for average score.  Average driving distance drops at each handicap level from touring pro to scratch to single digit, to mid, to low handicap golfers.  I won't throw numbers out because then everyone in this thread will over perform their respective group.  There's oodles of data out there that shows those same demarcations. 

 

Further a modern driver is packed with technology, far more than any 4 iron might hold.  Unless there is some compelling reason to do so - the real possibility of a penalty for hitting a reasonably well played shot - any choice that limits distance is one that is limiting scoring capabilities.  (Penalties for the purpose of this post aren't just balls in hazards but they are miss hit shots, balls in the trees, anything that costs a stroke or strokes on the scorecard.)  Properly fit and understood the driver is one of the easiest clubs in the bag to hit successfully.  So the OP should consider if he has the right piece of equipment and then also the possibility of taking lessons or working on that club in practice over the long run.  That may also mean a transitional period where his scores take a step backwards for a short period of time as he adapts to his new strategy. 

 

I wish him well but the numbers suggest that his best move going forward, if he wants to move from a 12 to single digits, is to figure the driver out.

Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  Aldila  R flex   - 42.25 inches 

SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

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On 5/24/2020 at 2:19 PM, toshea said:

I’ve recently began to tee off on par 5’s with a 4iron... allows me to go 4 iron, 4 iron, 7-pw into the green. 
 

Essentially eliminates any eagle 🦅 opportunity but it’s not like I really was having many opportunities at them anyways. It has however kept me in play and my scoring average down. 
 

Anyone else in this boat?

I think its a great strategy you have. Heck there many rounds/tournaments I wish I could go back in time and perform similar strategies. I realize we all grow through experiences but course management is one area I think most of us should focus more attention to. Looks like you have with your example. 

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I’m gonna create a separate post so I can show a bunch of data on this, but I’ve been waiting over a month for my new driver shaft, and have been teeing off with 3wood, 3/4 iron, and other irons while I’m without my driver. It’s been eye opening: am I scoring better? Yes 4 strokes better on average when compared to last years June rounds. Are FIR’s up? Yes, by a whopping 4 fairways (40%) a round.
Are GIR’s down? Yes by about 10%: but I’m hitting longer irons into greens.
Am I a better golfer now than last year? Definitely Am I making more eagles and birdies? Nope: but I’m not making double bogeys anymore either.
RevKev & DaveP043 both make good points but golf is so individual: I would agree that the likelihood of a 12 handicap hitting 2 good 4 irons followed by a solid 7 is unlikely, it all depends on the particular golfer’s strengths and weaknesses.


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Driver - Cobra LtDxLS

3 Wood - Ping g410 LST

2iron - Titleist U505

Irons - Ping i59

Wedges - Vokey Sm9

Putter - Mizuno Mcraft IV

 

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6 minutes ago, Micah T said:

I’m gonna create a separate post so I can show a bunch of data on this, but I’ve been waiting over a month for my new driver shaft, and have been teeing off with 3wood, 3/4 iron, and other irons while I’m without my driver. It’s been eye opening: am I scoring better? Yes 4 strokes better on average when compared to last years June rounds. Are FIR’s up? Yes, by a whopping 4 fairways (40%) a round.
Are GIR’s down? Yes by about 10%: but I’m hitting longer irons into greens.
Am I a better golfer now than last year? Definitely Am I making more eagles and birdies? Nope: but I’m not making double bogeys anymore either.
RevKev & DaveP043 both make good points but golf is so individual: I would agree that the likelihood of a 12 handicap hitting 2 good 4 irons followed by a solid 7 is unlikely, it all depends on the particular golfer’s strengths and weaknesses.

Its an interesting question.  You're hitting shorter clubs off the tee, you're scoring better, and you're a better player.  So is the lower scoring because you're a better player?  Is it because you're hitting shorter clubs off the tee?  Is it possible that you're scoring better primarily because you're a better player, in spite of your choosing to hit shorter clubs off the tee?  I suppose any of those is possible, and you'll get more data to evaluate once you get the driver in your hands that you want to use.  Good luck!

:titleist-small: Irons Titleist T200, AMT Red stiff

:callaway-small:Rogue SubZero, GD YS-Six X

:mizuno-small: T22 54 and 58 wedges

:mizuno-small: 7-wood

:Sub70: 5-wood

 B60 G5i putter

Right handed

Reston, Virginia

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3 minutes ago, Micah T said:

I’m gonna create a separate post so I can show a bunch of data on this, but I’ve been waiting over a month for my new driver shaft, and have been teeing off with 3wood, 3/4 iron, and other irons while I’m without my driver. It’s been eye opening: am I scoring better? Yes 4 strokes better on average when compared to last years June rounds. Are FIR’s up? Yes, by a whopping 4 fairways (40%) a round.
Are GIR’s down? Yes by about 10%: but I’m hitting longer irons into greens.
Am I a better golfer now than last year? Definitely Am I making more eagles and birdies? Nope: but I’m not making double bogeys anymore either.
RevKev & DaveP043 both make good points but golf is so individual: I would agree that the likelihood of a 12 handicap hitting 2 good 4 irons followed by a solid 7 is unlikely, it all depends on the particular golfer’s strengths and weaknesses.


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I'm delighted to see hear that your game is improving.  But an exception does not prove the rule and the rule is well established that the farther you can hit the ball, without excessive penalties (that last part being a huge key) the lower your handicap.  I'm certainly not arguing that a player with a handicap might improve his or her game for a while by hitting less than driver if in fact driver is a limiting factor for that player.  But frequently choosing to hit less than driver will place the cap on how good that player might become. 

The average driving distance for a scratch golfer is 253 yards - I realize that most on any golf forum will claim to hit it farther than that but that's the reality based on data from places like ARCCOS and Shot Scope.  If you don't average 253 yards and you are a scratch player it means that you do tons of other things very well - better than scratch to offset it.  If you average 253 and are a 7 (where the average is closer to 240) you have things that are limiting you other than distance - one of those things could be excessive penalties with driver so by backing off to 3 wood you are averaging around the average distance of a higher low handicap player still but without the penalties, your handicap drops but your ceiling is also set lower.

 

Does that make sense - it's the point we are making to the OP.

 

I would finally add that the reality of life may make it very difficult to improve one's driving - I don't know your life circumstance - maybe you work 75 hours a week, have no time to practice and play only on weekends, want to continue with that pattern and are content with it.  Maybe you have a young family that you spend time with or a disabled child to take care of.  This same thing may hold true of the OP.  So I'm only writing about what would be statistically the best move without taking those other things into consideration.

Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  Aldila  R flex   - 42.25 inches 

SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

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I’ve recently began to tee off on par 5’s with a 4iron... allows me to go 4 iron, 4 iron, 7-pw into the green. 
 
Essentially eliminates any eagle 🦅 opportunity but it’s not like I really was having many opportunities at them anyways. It has however kept me in play and my scoring average down. 
 
Anyone else in this boat?

I’ve been there. Occasionally I’ll have ball striking issues so I’ll play the holes similar to what you’re doing.
It does work for me.


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Rick

 

 

Left Hand, 

Driver; PXG 0311XF Cypher 50 gr Senior  
5 wood; Ping 425, Senior Shaft 55 gr       
7 wood; Ping 425, Senior Shaft 55 gr      
5 hybrid; Cally Steelhead, Hazardous R2     
Irons; Mizuno JPX 923HM 7-GW Recoil 460 F2
Wedges; Titleist S9 54*, Mizuno SW 56*

Putter; Waaay too many to list

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43 minutes ago, Rickp said:


I’ve been there. Occasionally I’ll have ball striking issues so I’ll play the holes similar to what you’re doing.
It does work for me.


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For me, I have no other reliable club off the tee besides driver. I found someway to hit a 6 iron OB on a par 3 the other day. Hybrid for me off the tee usually equals hook off the planet (except for an occasional good shot I hit with it on a par 3 on my course).

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I'm delighted to see hear that your game is improving.  But an exception does not prove the rule and the rule is well established that the farther you can hit the ball, without excessive penalties (that last part being a huge key) the lower your handicap.  I'm certainly not arguing that a player with a handicap might improve his or her game for a while by hitting less than driver if in fact driver is a limiting factor for that player.  But frequently choosing to hit less than driver will place the cap on how good that player might become. 
The average driving distance for a scratch golfer is 253 yards - I realize that most on any golf forum will claim to hit it farther than that but that's the reality based on data from places like ARCCOS and Shot Scope.  If you don't average 253 yards and you are a scratch player it means that you do tons of other things very well - better than scratch to offset it.  If you average 253 and are a 7 (where the average is closer to 240) you have things that are limiting you other than distance - one of those things could be excessive penalties with driver so by backing off to 3 wood you are averaging around the average distance of a higher low handicap player still but without the penalties, your handicap drops but your ceiling is also set lower.
 
Does that make sense - it's the point we are making to the OP.
 
I would finally add that the reality of life may make it very difficult to improve one's driving - I don't know your life circumstance - maybe you work 75 hours a week, have no time to practice and play only on weekends, want to continue with that pattern and are content with it.  Maybe you have a young family that you spend time with or a disabled child to take care of.  This same thing may hold true of the OP.  So I'm only writing about what would be statistically the best move without taking those other things into consideration.

Totally agree: and I fell into the latter category: my length off the tee was a liability due to my average driver tee shot being 285 but suffering from a 2 way miss. Clubbing down keeps me in bounds, but it also cuts down on birdie opportunities: as you put it, higher floor lower ceiling.


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Driver - Cobra LtDxLS

3 Wood - Ping g410 LST

2iron - Titleist U505

Irons - Ping i59

Wedges - Vokey Sm9

Putter - Mizuno Mcraft IV

 

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I hit driver/3 wood on only 2-3 holes on my regular course. Why, because I have always been taught to be a full shot to the green. My mates hit driver every time they can however usually I hit the green in regulation more than they do and also closer the pin.

There is a par 5 we play that is 543M (600yds) off white. I hit hybrid, hybrid, 6 iron and par it regularly. My mates it Driver, 3 Wood, wedge in they are lucky - the issue is that the fairway slopes left and towards water for the first 320M and get narrower the further up you go.

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18 hours ago, Micah T said:


Totally agree: and I fell into the latter category: my length off the tee was a liability due to my average driver tee shot being 285 but suffering from a 2 way miss. Clubbing down keeps me in bounds, but it also cuts down on birdie opportunities: as you put it, higher floor lower ceiling.


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Trust me - I play with a friend who is a 24 who could learn a lot from you.  He has the five way miss going on. 🙂 

 

At least the 3 wood narrows it to 2 or 3 and normally those stay on the planet - he still hits that one longer than I can hit driver - 240 or so - it's amazing to see him stagger his way around the golf course - the last time we played together (two weeks ago) he pulled an iron on a 340 yard par 4 - that might be okay but the longest iron he games is a 7 and this hole was into a breeze and it was wet - he hit two irons (because that was his strategy) each pretty well and was 50 yards short of the green.  I asked him what he hit - "Oh I was going to go 8 iron, 8 iron, boom boom."  Why?  "Because I can hit my 8 iron 170!"

Sure on an 85 degree day in the middle of the winter when the course is fast and firm and there's a breeze behind him, he can, he's pretty long.  In the summer here when the heat index is 115, it's wet and there's a breeze in his face 145 is a huge 8 iron, for anyone not playing on tour.  And this doesn't even get into the reality that his best club in the bag is his 5 hybrid which he could have hit close to 200 (just short of the water that you must lay up from on this hole) and then the 8 iron in. 

 

Oye Vey! 

Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60  Aldila  R flex   - 42.25 inches 

SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft

Ping G410 7, 9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Srixon ZX5 MK II  5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex

India 52,56 (60 pending)  UST recoil 75's R flex  

Evon roll ER 5 32 inches

It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD   

 

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16 hours ago, Firebird said:

I hit driver/3 wood on only 2-3 holes on my regular course. Why, because I have always been taught to be a full shot to the green. My mates hit driver every time they can however usually I hit the green in regulation more than they do and also closer the pin.

There is a par 5 we play that is 543M (600yds) off white. I hit hybrid, hybrid, 6 iron and par it regularly. My mates it Driver, 3 Wood, wedge in they are lucky - the issue is that the fairway slopes left and towards water for the first 320M and get narrower the further up you go.

This had been the conventional wisdom for quite a long time, lay up to a full shot distance, not closer.  Newer statistics tell us that its generally not the best choice for most players.  No matter what the handicap level, most players will get closer, on average, from 50 yards than they will from 80, closer from 80 than from 100, etc.  Its not an "always" rule, there are lots of factors to consider, but we generally do better from closer.

:titleist-small: Irons Titleist T200, AMT Red stiff

:callaway-small:Rogue SubZero, GD YS-Six X

:mizuno-small: T22 54 and 58 wedges

:mizuno-small: 7-wood

:Sub70: 5-wood

 B60 G5i putter

Right handed

Reston, Virginia

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13 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

This had been the conventional wisdom for quite a long time, lay up to a full shot distance, not closer.  Newer statistics tell us that its generally not the best choice for most players.  No matter what the handicap level, most players will get closer, on average, from 50 yards than they will from 80, closer from 80 than from 100, etc.  Its not an "always" rule, there are lots of factors to consider, but we generally do better from closer.

The sabermetrics of golf!   The amount of amateur data that is available now from the various tracking apps should help everyones game if you believe in them.  Of course, there are those that will look at the wrong stats (i.e. strikeouts in baseball) and cling to older ways of thinking.  This thread has opened my eyes a bit to some of these. 

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3 Wood: image.jpeg.693c1038c87ba93f656427286d5ff6c6.jpeg M6 UST Mamiya Proforce V2

3 Hybrid: image.jpeg.693c1038c87ba93f656427286d5ff6c6.jpeg M6 UST Mamiya Proforce V2

4 Hybrid : image.jpeg.693c1038c87ba93f656427286d5ff6c6.jpeg M4 Stock Stiff Shaft

Irons: image.jpeg.693c1038c87ba93f656427286d5ff6c6.jpeg P790 (5I-AW) - 2 deg strong - Nippon Modus3 105 Gram/Stiff 

60 Degree Wedge: :titelist-small: Vokey SM7 - AMT Black/Stiff

54 Degree Wedge: :cleveland-small: RTX Zip Core

Putter: :ping-small:  Sigma G Tyne Putter

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6 minutes ago, den748 said:

The sabermetrics of golf!   The amount of amateur data that is available now from the various tracking apps should help everyones game if you believe in them.  Of course, there are those that will look at the wrong stats (i.e. strikeouts in baseball) and cling to older ways of thinking.  This thread has opened my eyes a bit to some of these. 

I'm the first to admit, it takes a bit of nerve to voluntarily start playing for a 50 or 60 or 70 yard shot, instead of the "comfortable" 90-yarder.  But with just a little practice and experience, it starts to make a lot of sense.  You also learn what factors make the shorter lay-up (leaving the longer approach) the right choice.

:titleist-small: Irons Titleist T200, AMT Red stiff

:callaway-small:Rogue SubZero, GD YS-Six X

:mizuno-small: T22 54 and 58 wedges

:mizuno-small: 7-wood

:Sub70: 5-wood

 B60 G5i putter

Right handed

Reston, Virginia

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On 5/24/2020 at 3:19 PM, toshea said:

I’ve recently began to tee off on par 5’s with a 4iron... allows me to go 4 iron, 4 iron, 7-pw into the green. 
 

Essentially eliminates any eagle 🦅 opportunity but it’s not like I really was having many opportunities at them anyways. It has however kept me in play and my scoring average down. 
 

Anyone else in this boat?

If I known I have been struggling off the tee yes all day I will do this. (Typically my 2H then I am like 4 iron, wedge in) have not had to in a while because I have Atleast somewhat been consistent with the driver not anything that I am having to drop anyway.

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7 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

This had been the conventional wisdom for quite a long time, lay up to a full shot distance, not closer.  Newer statistics tell us that its generally not the best choice for most players.  No matter what the handicap level, most players will get closer, on average, from 50 yards than they will from 80, closer from 80 than from 100, etc.  Its not an "always" rule, there are lots of factors to consider, but we generally do better from closer.

This is still how 90% of pro's play, that is why they carry 4 wedges. You never here them say I am going to lay up 50M out. I carry 3, PW 120m, AW 110m, SW 100m distances. Shortening my grip removes 8-10M which allows me to adjust to the pin placement. Much easier than having to say it is 66M to the pin, that is a 3/5 swing with a PW, a 7/10th with a AW etc. Even though my handicap has blown out in the past few years due to injury and illness I still am generally closer to the pin than my mates who are on much lower handicaps as they try to bomb drives. Mind you course management is Horses for Courses, it is what ever works for you.

Callaway Epic Flash 9 Degree

Callaway Epic Flash 3 wood 15 Degree

Callaway Apex 21 Hybrid 19 Degree

Callaway Steelhead Pro 4-AW Irons

Cleveland 54 Degree Wedge Steel Shaft

Recoil Graphite Shafts in all Callaway

Cobra Vintage Series Stingray 40

Preferred ball - Seed 001

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