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Middler

My Driver "Fitting?"

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I did a driver fitting at Club Champion in Feb, got my new pured shaft-adapter-grip in Mar. The only paid fitting I'd ever done before was pre launch monitor, but I have hit on launch monitors at Golf Galaxy, PGA Superstore and a small independent golf store (also used the Mizuno Swing Analyzer there). I made it very clear I was looking to hit more fairways, presumably tighter dispersion. I told him I didn’t care about distance, I’d even give up distance for more fairways. He said he understood - though he kept highlighting when I was getting more or less distance. Here's my experience and preliminary results FWIW.

Fitting

I warmed up, to my satisfaction – though in hindsight it’s possible I should have hit a few more.

I first hit 5-6 shots with my driver as is. The dispersion was pretty bad, though I didn’t have any frame of reference until the fitter showed me all the dispersion's to come. I don’t recall if he threw out any of my baseline shots. [I will always wonder if that base line stock driver dispersion was bad because I was less warmed up than for subsequent shafts and heads.]

The fitter chose a current model driver head most like the 2018 model I came in with (a reasonable place to start). He told me we'd start with shafts and told me 80% of the result would come from getting the right shaft.

I then hit 4 good shots (bad shots were thrown out, fitters judgement…) each with 7-8 different shafts. One clearly had a tighter dispersion than the others.

I then hit 4 good shots (bad shot thrown out) each with 3 other heads. They were no better than the first head.

The Club Champion fitter recommended a new head, shaft and grip. Since the CC fitter had told me at the start that the right shaft would give me 80% of the desired improvement, I opted to buy just the new shaft-grip-adapter with my almost new 2018 driver head (replaced a few months ago). The list price for the new head was exactly the same as MSRP for the stock driver with the same head-stock shaft-adapter-grip, no reduction for omitting the stock shaft-adapter-grip --- that seems unfair to me.

Preliminary Results

I’ve now played 10 rounds with my new shaft and I have averaged 7 of 13 fairways on my regular course – I hit 10 fairways once. My last 25 rounds prior with the old stock shaft I averaged 8.1 of 13 fairways on my regular course – and hit 11 fairways 3 times. The new custom fitted driver does not feel any different to me, and my dispersion hasn't changed at all that I can see. There has been no change in distance, but I wasn’t looking for any.

Discussion

Unless you’re a very consistent ball striker, I would contend that 4 shots is nowhere near enough to establish dispersion with any combination of shaft and head, no matter how good or bad your swing is. I’ve seen several articles using from 30 to 70 shots to establish dispersion, though I realize that’s not practical for a fitting especially with 8 shafts and 3 heads. But 4 to draw meaningful conclusions???

I would contend that if I hit 28 consecutive shots with my previous stock driver, and grouped every 4 consecutive shots into 7 dispersion sets, they would a) not be the same even though nothing had changed, and b) one would probably be tighter than the others just out of pure random chance.

So I strongly suspect the shaft that seemed to perform the best that day was more by chance than anything else. I could have gone another day and hit all the same combinations in the same order, and another “best” could have easily emerged.

Every once in a while people go to fitters and their stock setup is as good or better than anything else the fitter puts in their hands. That might also be just chance, unlucky for Club Champion. Again since you establish a base line first with your stock driver, odds are you will hit better as you go, while using a shaft-head given to you by CC.

I will continue to play with the new driver, and reserve judgement until I’ve played 20-25 rounds, but so far it doesn’t appear there was any value added with my driver fitting at Club Champion. I wouldn’t have gone and paid for a fitting if I wasn’t hoping I’d actually see an improvement - I certainly didn’t want the exercise to fail.

While I am sure there are shaft-head-grips that best suit each of us that will improve our results (a little in most cases, a lot in a few cases) --- I don’t think the methodology above is a reliable way to find it at all. If MGS ever did a Buyers Guide of Club Fitters, that could be very interesting...but I'm not actually recommending it, way too controversial.

 

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34 minutes ago, Middler said:

I did a driver fitting at Club Champion in Feb, got my new pured shaft-adapter-grip in Mar. The only paid fitting I'd ever done before was pre launch monitor, but I have hit on launch monitors at Golf Galaxy, PGA Superstore and a small independent golf store (also used the Mizuno Swing Analyzer there). I made it very clear I was looking to hit more fairways, presumably tighter dispersion. I told him I didn’t care about distance, I’d even give up distance for more fairways. He said he understood - though he kept highlighting when I was getting more or less distance. Here's my experience and preliminary results FWIW.

Fitting

I warmed up, to my satisfaction – though in hindsight it’s possible I should have hit a few more.

I first hit 5-6 shots with my driver as is. The dispersion was pretty bad, though I didn’t have any frame of reference until the fitter showed me all the dispersion's to come. I don’t recall if he threw out any of my baseline shots. [I will always wonder if that base line stock driver dispersion was bad because I was less warmed up than for subsequent shafts and heads.]

The fitter chose a current model driver head most like the 2018 model I came in with (a reasonable place to start). He told me we'd start with shafts and told me 80% of the result would come from getting the right shaft.

I then hit 4 good shots (bad shots were thrown out, fitters judgement…) each with 7-8 different shafts. One clearly had a tighter dispersion than the others.

I then hit 4 good shots (bad shot thrown out) each with 3 other heads. They were no better than the first head.

The Club Champion fitter recommended a new head, shaft and grip. Since the CC fitter had told me at the start that the right shaft would give me 80% of the desired improvement, I opted to buy just the new shaft-grip-adapter with my almost new 2018 driver head (replaced a few months ago). The list price for the new head was exactly the same as MSRP for the stock driver with the same head-stock shaft-adapter-grip, no reduction for omitting the stock shaft-adapter-grip --- that seems unfair to me.

Preliminary Results

I’ve now played 10 rounds with my new shaft and I have averaged 7 of 13 fairways on my regular course – I hit 10 fairways once. My last 25 rounds prior with the old stock shaft I averaged 8.1 of 13 fairways on my regular course – and hit 11 fairways 3 times. The new custom fitted driver does not feel any different to me, and my dispersion hasn't changed at all that I can see. There has been no change in distance, but I wasn’t looking for any.

Discussion

Unless you’re a very consistent ball striker, I would contend that 4 shots is nowhere near enough to establish dispersion with any combination of shaft and head, no matter how good or bad your swing is. I’ve seen several articles using from 30 to 70 shots to establish dispersion, though I realize that’s not practical for a fitting especially with 8 shafts and 3 heads. But 4 to draw meaningful conclusions???

I would contend that if I hit 28 consecutive shots with my previous stock driver, and grouped every 4 consecutive shots into 7 dispersion sets, they would a) not be the same even though nothing had changed, and b) one would probably be tighter than the others just out of pure random chance.

So I strongly suspect the shaft that seemed to perform the best that day was more by chance than anything else. I could have gone another day and hit all the same combinations in the same order, and another “best” could have easily emerged.

Every once in a while people go to fitters and their stock setup is as good or better than anything else the fitter puts in their hands. That might also be just chance, unlucky for Club Champion. Again since you establish a base line first with your stock driver, odds are you will hit better as you go, while using a shaft-head given to you by CC.

I will continue to play with the new driver, and reserve judgement until I’ve played 20-25 rounds, but so far it doesn’t appear there was any value added with my driver fitting at Club Champion. I wouldn’t have gone and paid for a fitting if I wasn’t hoping I’d actually see an improvement - I certainly didn’t want the exercise to fail.

While I am sure there are shaft-head-grips that best suit each of us that will improve our results (a little in most cases, a lot in a few cases) --- I don’t think the methodology above is a reliable way to find it at all. If MGS ever did a Buyers Guide of Club Fitters, that could be very interesting...but I'm not actually recommending it, way too controversial.

 

What would you change in the fitting to get your desired results?


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"One thing Golf has taught me, is that my muscles have no memory."

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I got fit for a Cobra King LTD when it first came out. He would change heads and shafts but not tell me what he changed. It always came back to the same set up he said was way better than my then current Ping G25. I didn't completely understand all the numbers, but I did point out the overall distance between the two next to nothing. He said it was the spin rates that would give me the distance I was looking for. It's a small local guy that owns the shop and his simulator is set at sea level so distance is always lower. He had the same driver as I was fitted for and swore by it. Although somewhat skeptical I bought it and it has been the best driver ever for me to date. Thinking about getting fitted again to see what happens.

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In my experience, true spec is far superior to club champion. Club champion pushes exotic shafts and puring (which in and of itself is a controversial topic in the fitting world given technology of new shafts). If location isn’t an issue for you, I’d recommend true spec. 

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P790s/M5 Driver/F9 3wood/F9 hybrid/MG2 wedges/Ardmore putter

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I did a driver fitting at Club Champion in Feb, got my new pured shaft-adapter-grip in Mar. The only paid fitting I'd ever done before was pre launch monitor, but I have hit on launch monitors at Golf Galaxy, PGA Superstore and a small independent golf store (also used the Mizuno Swing Analyzer there). I made it very clear I was looking to hit more fairways, presumably tighter dispersion. I told him I didn’t care about distance, I’d even give up distance for more fairways. He said he understood - though he kept highlighting when I was getting more or less distance. Here's my experience and preliminary results FWIW.
Fitting
I warmed up, to my satisfaction – though in hindsight it’s possible I should have hit a few more.
I first hit 5-6 shots with my driver as is. The dispersion was pretty bad, though I didn’t have any frame of reference until the fitter showed me all the dispersion's to come. I don’t recall if he threw out any of my baseline shots. [i will always wonder if that base line stock driver dispersion was bad because I was less warmed up than for subsequent shafts and heads.]
The fitter chose a current model driver head most like the 2018 model I came in with (a reasonable place to start). He told me we'd start with shafts and told me 80% of the result would come from getting the right shaft.
I then hit 4 good shots (bad shots were thrown out, fitters judgement…) each with 7-8 different shafts. One clearly had a tighter dispersion than the others.
I then hit 4 good shots (bad shot thrown out) each with 3 other heads. They were no better than the first head.
The Club Champion fitter recommended a new head, shaft and grip. Since the CC fitter had told me at the start that the right shaft would give me 80% of the desired improvement, I opted to buy just the new shaft-grip-adapter with my almost new 2018 driver head (replaced a few months ago). The list price for the new head was exactly the same as MSRP for the stock driver with the same head-stock shaft-adapter-grip, no reduction for omitting the stock shaft-adapter-grip --- that seems unfair to me.
Preliminary Results
I’ve now played 10 rounds with my new shaft and I have averaged 7 of 13 fairways on my regular course – I hit 10 fairways once. My last 25 rounds prior with the old stock shaft I averaged 8.1 of 13 fairways on my regular course – and hit 11 fairways 3 times. The new custom fitted driver does not feel any different to me, and my dispersion hasn't changed at all that I can see. There has been no change in distance, but I wasn’t looking for any.
Discussion
Unless you’re a very consistent ball striker, I would contend that 4 shots is nowhere near enough to establish dispersion with any combination of shaft and head, no matter how good or bad your swing is. I’ve seen several articles using from 30 to 70 shots to establish dispersion, though I realize that’s not practical for a fitting especially with 8 shafts and 3 heads. But 4 to draw meaningful conclusions???
I would contend that if I hit 28 consecutive shots with my previous stock driver, and grouped every 4 consecutive shots into 7 dispersion sets, they would a) not be the same even though nothing had changed, and b) one would probably be tighter than the others just out of pure random chance.
So I strongly suspect the shaft that seemed to perform the best that day was more by chance than anything else. I could have gone another day and hit all the same combinations in the same order, and another “best” could have easily emerged.
Every once in a while people go to fitters and their stock setup is as good or better than anything else the fitter puts in their hands. That might also be just chance, unlucky for Club Champion. Again since you establish a base line first with your stock driver, odds are you will hit better as you go, while using a shaft-head given to you by CC.
I will continue to play with the new driver, and reserve judgement until I’ve played 20-25 rounds, but so far it doesn’t appear there was any value added with my driver fitting at Club Champion. I wouldn’t have gone and paid for a fitting if I wasn’t hoping I’d actually see an improvement - I certainly didn’t want the exercise to fail.
While I am sure there are shaft-head-grips that best suit each of us that will improve our results (a little in most cases, a lot in a few cases) --- I don’t think the methodology above is a reliable way to find it at all. If MGS ever did a Buyers Guide of Club Fitters, that could be very interesting...but I'm not actually recommending it, way too controversial.
 

I see these same comments on here all the time and I just don’t understand it. The golfer will always be the biggest factor in your swing, not your equipment. Fittings are no different, and yes fittings on different days or different fitters will produce different results. It’s not perfect and their is no magic. The second biggest factor in fitting, is your fitter. It sounds to me like you were never on the same page with your fitter and that is a death sentence. Did he ask what you were willing to spend? Did he ask you if you wanted the best setup possible or if you wanted to stay in stock shaft offerings? Same with the puring, it should have been made an optional service at your discretion.

In his defense, I’d say you really didn’t buy the setup you were fit for anyways so there are some unknowns there. I’m not going to get into the shaft/head debate on what’s more important, but I’d say the pairing of the two together is important. Unfortunately, the MSRP on new products is what it is. You’re not going to find anything discounted until the next line comes out. OEMs have shafts mass produced for their heads to save on cost. The stock shafts cost a few dollars to produce. It makes fitting tough because you’re stuck paying top dollar for the latest equipment.

I feel like too many people don’t know what to really expect from fittings and they end up with a bad experience because it happens very fast and their is a lot that happens in a short time. Good fitters are hard to find and the more you know going into it the easier their job is. My advice would be to read some of the other fitting reviews on here, there’s some good information. Also if you’re really not happy with your purchase, talk to your fitter about it.


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It never ceases to amaze me at what some people think constitutes a "fitting'. Swapping out shafts until you get an OK result is not a fitting. 

Without first establishing a set of baseline results to work against - you have not been fitted.

Without establishing the weight you are comfortable swinging - you have not been fitted.

Without establishing the correct shaft length - you have not been fitted.

Without establishing the shaft profile and flex - you have not been fitted.

Without establishing grip type and size - you have not been fitted.

Without establishing loft and face angle - you have not been fitted....these are all metrics which can be physically measured - if they are measured to your specifics, then you can call yourself custom fit. 

And this could be before you've even got LM results! If someone tells you that 80% of improvement is down to the right shaft, they're full of BS. You could improve by a reasonable margin by having the right grip, stance, alignment, ball position and tee height before you even started your backswing. The simple act of getting the clubhead to deliver back to the correct position in the swing to the ball is not just about a shaft - it's about the sum of all the parts that make it happen.

So next time you go into a store and the randomly swap shafts and use the 'trial and error' method of finding an acceptable result that is often short-lived, think about what 'custom-fitting' actually entails and achieves. The difference is night and day.

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Posted (edited)

So first off - I'm Jealous.  I could only dream of averaging 8 fairways a round! 

Secondly, it seemed to start off ok with the fitting.  Except, I think you will find most agree that the head should be fitted first and then the shaft from reading around here and listening to the guys at TXG.  

Third, I also went to a club champion fitting and I can say that I went back to my old combination much later in the fitting to give numbers after I had been warmed up.

Looking back, I do not think I got the in depth fitting I was looking for either. @jaskanski puts it in a fantastic perspective about many of the things that I feel like we didn't achieve during the club champion fitting either. Or at the very least just skipped through quickly. 

In fact, I just went to a Callaway Demo day for a 30 minute fitting and can say that the fitter spoke more about why he was choosing this flex or weight or profile or shaft than I had with the Club Champion fitting.  We first discovered that I was a higher spin player so the Sub Zero head would work best and which loft I should be working with.   Next he went through the stock shaft offerings first to try and make sure those may work for me when.  He gradually went up to other profiles that were exotic, but used price point as a guide (which my wallet appreciates).  Turns out that the Ventus Blue 7X was far and away the best fit no matter price.  I was looking for less weight on the shaft, but he spoke about why the 70-79 gram shaft would be much more consistent with my aggressive transition.  We looked at proper grip size for me.  Only thing we did not change and could not really change with that specific shaft was shaft length, but i did have impact tape on the driver so I had that feedback.

Edited by juspoole
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Driver:  image.png.3c6db1120d888f669e07d4a8f890b3f1.pngMavrik Sub Zero 9* (Set to 10) Ventus Blue 6X

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3 Hybrid: :titelist-small: 818 H2 Hybrid Tensei Blue 80 X

Irons 4-PW: :mizuno-small: MP 18 SC Dynamic Gold AMT X

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6 hours ago, jaskanski said:

It never ceases to amaze me at what some people think constitutes a "fitting'. Swapping out shafts until you get an OK result is not a fitting. 

Without first establishing a set of baseline results to work against - you have not been fitted.

Without establishing the weight you are comfortable swinging - you have not been fitted.

Without establishing the correct shaft length - you have not been fitted.

Without establishing the shaft profile and flex - you have not been fitted.

Without establishing grip type and size - you have not been fitted.

Without establishing loft and face angle - you have not been fitted....these are all metrics which can be physically measured - if they are measured to your specifics, then you can call yourself custom fit. 

And this could be before you've even got LM results! If someone tells you that 80% of improvement is down to the right shaft, they're full of BS. You could improve by a reasonable margin by having the right grip, stance, alignment, ball position and tee height before you even started your backswing. The simple act of getting the clubhead to deliver back to the correct position in the swing to the ball is not just about a shaft - it's about the sum of all the parts that make it happen.

So next time you go into a store and the randomly swap shafts and use the 'trial and error' method of finding an acceptable result that is often short-lived, think about what 'custom-fitting' actually entails and achieves. The difference is night and day.

1 hour ago, juspoole said:

So first off - I'm Jealous.  I could only dream of averaging 8 fairways a round! 

Secondly, it seemed to start off ok with the fitting.  Except, I think you will find most agree that the head should be fitted first and then the shaft from reading around here and listening to the guys at TXG. So I should’ve gone to CC for a paid fitting, and then tell them how to proceed. This is why many of us are skeptical of fittings. It’s one thing when you get a free fitting at a big box store, but how has CC grown into a viable business? I’m not arguing, I’m asking. See quote below.

Third, I also went to a club champion fitting and I can say that I went back to my old combination much later in the fitting to give numbers after I had been warmed up.

Looking back, I do not think I got the in depth fitting I was looking for either. @jaskanski puts it in a fantastic perspective about many of the things that I feel like we didn't achieve during the club champion fitting either. Or at the very least just skipped through quickly. 

In fact, I just went to a Callaway Demo day for a 30 minute fitting and can say that the fitter spoke more about why he was choosing this flex or weight or profile or shaft than I had with the Club Champion fitting.  We first discovered that I was a higher spin player so the Sub Zero head would work best and which loft I should be working with.   Next he went through the stock shaft offerings first to try and make sure those may work for me when.  He gradually went up to other profiles that were exotic, but used price point as a guide (which my wallet appreciates).  Turns out that the Ventus Blue 7X was far and away the best fit no matter price.  I was looking for less weight on the shaft, but he spoke about why the 70-79 gram shaft would be much more consistent with my aggressive transition.  We looked at proper grip size for me.  Only thing we did not change and could not really change with that specific shaft was shaft length, but i did have impact tape on the driver so I had that feedback.

Quote

The fitting process at Club Champion is similar—but not necessarily the same—to what you’ll find at most agnostic fitters (Hot Stix, Cool Clubs, True Spec Golf, and others). The process starts by hitting your current clubs and using a launch monitor to track and store your distance, spin rate, and many other data points. This provides a baseline: Subsequent clubs and shafts are measured against it.

The fitter starts by selecting the same, or very similar, clubhead to what you are currently playing and then experiments with shafts of different weight, length, flex, and flex point until finding the best one for that part of your game. Once the shaft is set, the fitter does the same with clubheads until the data uncovers the best option.

So where do I get the fitting you two recommend? Club Champion, along with a couple others, has been held up as a legit fitting experience many times here - MGS staff included? Now that I’ve been, I agree the CC methodology is highly suspect statistically. Sets of four shots isn’t statistically valid.


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  • and Mizuno CLK 3H 19° OR Mizuno S18 60.06
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Seems to me that many folks think a fitting is a "one and done" proposition. (Disclosure: my last iron fitting was a one and done after 4 hours including breaks and discussions.) I also recommend seeking out club fitters that have a long history applying their trade and didn't get into fitting with the advent of LM's. It's like every person/store with a LM are club fitters these days. There is one product that absolutely worked for tightening shot dispersion and that the ShotMaker. I have it my 4w but not my current driver. I had one in my SLDR but just haven't removed it (yet) and put it in my EXS. Hmmm?

Sadly, the ShotMaker is no longer made and I have not been able to find any on the web. I'd buy the inventory if I could. They're that good. If anyone can find these anywhere I'd like to know about it. As far as I know Harrison doesn't make them anymore. According to Michael Chang at Harrison that is.

https://mygolfspy.com/harrison-shotmaker-review/


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I’m curious if the goal is just or hit more fairways just to have that stat look better. Of it doesn’t lead to more GIR does it even matter? 
 

What happens when you hit 6 fairways but 12 greens? Do you score better than when you hit 8 fairways and 6 greens?

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Seems to me that many folks think a fitting is a "one and done" proposition.[/url]


This. I look at fittings no different than lessons. You’d never go to a single lesson and believe that it would make a huge impact on your game. Most likely you’d work on some of the things your coach talked about and then come back for another lesson with some feedback and continue to build each lesson. I don’t understand why people have this idea that a fitter can watch you swing a few dozen times in an hour or so and have a sizable impact on your game.


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On 5/31/2020 at 11:27 AM, LeftyRM7 said:

This. I look at fittings no different than lessons. You’d never go to a single lesson and believe that it would make a huge impact on your game. Most likely you’d work on some of the things your coach talked about and then come back for another lesson with some feedback and continue to build each lesson. I don’t understand why people have this idea that a fitter can watch you swing a few dozen times in an hour or so and have a sizable impact on your game.
 

I may be wrong, but of all the hundreds of posts I've read about how valuable a proper fitting is, and Club Champion is often included among the "best" - I don't recall one that said it would take multiple fittings. Club Champion certainly doesn't say that, quite the opposite https://clubchampiongolf.com/our-process/what-to-expect

If I'd known their methodology beforehand I probably wouldn't have bothered. It might work for a player with a highly repeatable swing, but it's statistically questionable for others.

I should've kept with my instincts after reading their ad copy and the source - you'd have to come in grossly misfit to have those results on average...

Quote

Results Don't Lie According to Golf Digest, eight out of nine Club Champion customers who went through a custom golf club fitting added an average of 21 yards off the tee and lowered their scores by as much as six strokes per round. It isn’t just about the tee shot: our customers also found an average gain of 13 yards with fitted irons.

 

 


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  • and Mizuno CLK 3H 19° OR Mizuno S18 60.06
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32 minutes ago, Middler said:

If I'd known their methodology beforehand I probably wouldn't have bothered. It might work for a player with a highly repeatable swing, but it's statistically questionable for others.

 

So what you are saying is that no one should get fit? I am a plus handicap. I take two swings back to back regularly and they are not the same. There are less than .5% of golfers that have a "highly repeatable" swing. 

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47 minutes ago, THEZIPR23 said:

So what you are saying is that no one should get fit? I am a plus handicap. I take two swings back to back regularly and they are not the same. There are less than .5% of golfers that have a "highly repeatable" swing. 

I wasn't looking for a fight - show me where I said "no one should get fit?" In fact I said it could be for some subset of players. Repeatable is relative, along a continuum, it's certainly not a yes-no proposition - so "less than 0.5%" repeatable comes from where?

If you read my description - I know people who are way more likely to get a relative dispersion from 4 shots, and people who won't. If you're in the former group, you could have a meaningful fitting at the CC I went to. I was simply saying a serious paid fitting as described in the OP may not be beneficial for every player. I see people here and elsewhere who claim fittings are good for all HI, even some who claim high HI players can derive the most benefit. Possible, but not likely IMO.

It's interesting how many replies have led me to regret starting the thread. IF anyone had addressed the statistically validity or methodology I would have welcomed that. No one came back with anything but anecdotal rebuttals, vague "what did you expect?" or I should have known or told CC how to conduct the fitting responses.


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4 minutes ago, Middler said:

I wasn't looking for a fight - show me where I said "no one should get fit?" Repeatable is relative, along a continuum, it's certainly not a yes-no proposition - so "less than 0.5%" repeatable comes from where?

If you read my description - I know people who are way more likely to get a relative dispersion from 4 shots, and people who won't. If you're in the former group, you could have a meaningful fitting at the CC I went to. I was simply saying a serious paid fitting as described in the OP may not be beneficial for every player. I see people here and elsewhere who claim fittings are good for all HI, even some who claim high HI players can derive the most benefit. Possible, but not likely IMO.

Not sure where the fight got started, I simply asked a question, if you took it as a fight that's on you.

Obviously you don't like being questioned so I will bow out. 

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1 hour ago, Middler said:

I wasn't looking for a fight - show me where I said "no one should get fit?" In fact I said it could be for some subset of players. Repeatable is relative, along a continuum, it's certainly not a yes-no proposition - so "less than 0.5%" repeatable comes from where?

If you read my description - I know people who are way more likely to get a relative dispersion from 4 shots, and people who won't. If you're in the former group, you could have a meaningful fitting at the CC I went to. I was simply saying a serious paid fitting as described in the OP may not be beneficial for every player. I see people here and elsewhere who claim fittings are good for all HI, even some who claim high HI players can derive the most benefit. Possible, but not likely IMO.

It's interesting how many replies have led me to regret starting the thread. IF anyone had addressed the statistically validity or methodology I would have welcomed that. No one came back with anything but anecdotal rebuttals, vague "what did you expect?" or I should have known or told CC how to conduct the fitting responses.

The reason a small about of shots are used by fitters is because the golfer will start to adjust their swing to try and make a club work based on numbers and/or ball flight. Keeping it low is to get an average of the shots with the golfers true swing, it doesn’t take a good fitter long to see what needs to be changed. They May make a change to the opposite end of the spectrum to see what that does then start dialing it back in. For example if a person is hitting lots of slices they will go full draw to see the change then based on that make tweaks. 
 

The fitter is trying to optimize the launch characteristics. This helps in both finding the right spot for distance and dispersion. 
 

And yes based on your post about seeing CC referenced in fittings you should have known their process from reading those threads along with their pricing of paying full retail price for a club plus the shaft and any work they do like puring. 


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2 hours ago, THEZIPR23 said:

Not sure where the fight got started, I simply asked a question, if you took it as a fight that's on you.

Obviously you don't like being questioned so I will bow out. 

You claimed I’m saying no one should get fit, I never said that period. If that wasn’t provocative on your part, so be it. And then you offered a repeatability stat I find very hard to believe, with no supporting source.

Readers are well able to judge the OP for themselves, so I’m done with this thread, thanks.


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On 5/29/2020 at 7:04 PM, LeftyRM7 said:

 Unfortunately, the MSRP on new products is what it is. You’re not going to find anything discounted until the next line comes out. OEMs have shafts mass produced for their heads to save on cost. The stock shafts cost a few dollars to produce. It makes fitting tough because you’re stuck paying top dollar for the latest equipment.

From what I have read, I think that most of what upsets people about Club Champion and buying exotic shafts is that you don't get the "original" shaft that the club was assembled with from the manufacturer. If I'm paying full retail for the club + shaft combo from the manufacturer and paying full retail for my exotic shaft, I expect to get a head and 2 shafts. You could then recoup some of your costs by selling the stock shaft (especially when some OEMs offer some nice "no cost options" outside of the "stock" offering. 

On 5/31/2020 at 1:54 AM, jaskanski said:

It never ceases to amaze me at what some people think constitutes a "fitting'. Swapping out shafts until you get an OK result is not a fitting. 

Without first establishing a set of baseline results to work against - you have not been fitted.

Without establishing the weight you are comfortable swinging - you have not been fitted.

Without establishing the correct shaft length - you have not been fitted.

Without establishing the shaft profile and flex - you have not been fitted.

Without establishing grip type and size - you have not been fitted.

Without establishing loft and face angle - you have not been fitted....these are all metrics which can be physically measured - if they are measured to your specifics, then you can call yourself custom fit. 

And this could be before you've even got LM results! If someone tells you that 80% of improvement is down to the right shaft, they're full of BS. You could improve by a reasonable margin by having the right grip, stance, alignment, ball position and tee height before you even started your backswing. The simple act of getting the clubhead to deliver back to the correct position in the swing to the ball is not just about a shaft - it's about the sum of all the parts that make it happen.

So next time you go into a store and the randomly swap shafts and use the 'trial and error' method of finding an acceptable result that is often short-lived, think about what 'custom-fitting' actually entails and achieves. The difference is night and day.

I understand what you are saying, but at the same time I also don't.

Obviously everyone should go into a fitting with a baseline of what they are trying to achieve. My guess would be that this is almost always going to be either 1) more distance than my current club or 2) better dispersion that my current club or 3) both. 

Everything after that (swing weight, shaft length, profile, flex, loft & lie) are all based on your golf swing. I suppose you could take static measurements for all of those things, but from what I've always read about fittings, static measurements are at best a starting point and at worst completely useless (to the point where a lot of fitters don't even do them anymore).  How are you suggesting that all of these different metrics be "established" without hitting golf balls?

I underlined one of your statements above, and I completely agree with this, but that is not the job of the fitter.  This would be what a swing coach does. The fitter is almost always going to be fitting you for the best club given the swing that you bring with you that day.  Unless specifically instructed to do so, I can't imagine there are too many fitters out there recommending clubs based on where they think your swing will end up opposed to where it is. 

Ultimately, I agree with the OP, that the less consistent of a golfer you are (which probably very closely aligns with your HDCP) the more difficult it is to get meaningful results from a fitting. Swing speed is probably one thing that doesn't vary a ton for an inconsistent player, but tempo and swing path, can vary a lot shot to shot and day to day and those two items would have a large impact on finding the right head/shaft/loft combo.  

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I understand what you are saying, but at the same time I also don't.
Obviously everyone should go into a fitting with a baseline of what they are trying to achieve. My guess would be that this is almost always going to be either 1) more distance than my current club or 2) better dispersion that my current club or 3) both. 
Everything after that (swing weight, shaft length, profile, flex, loft & lie) are all based on your golf swing. I suppose you could take static measurements for all of those things, but from what I've always read about fittings, static measurements are at best a starting point and at worst completely useless (to the point where a lot of fitters don't even do them anymore).  How are you suggesting that all of these different metrics be "established" without hitting golf balls?
I underlined one of your statements above, and I completely agree with this, but that is not the job of the fitter.  This would be what a swing coach does. The fitter is almost always going to be fitting you for the best club given the swing that you bring with you that day.  Unless specifically instructed to do so, I can't imagine there are too many fitters out there recommending clubs based on where they think your swing will end up opposed to where it is. 
Ultimately, I agree with the OP, that the less consistent of a golfer you are (which probably very closely aligns with your HDCP) the more difficult it is to get meaningful results from a fitting. Swing speed is probably one thing that doesn't vary a ton for an inconsistent player, but tempo and swing path, can vary a lot shot to shot and day to day and those two items would have a large impact on finding the right head/shaft/loft combo.  

I’ve read that about CC on here so many times but those people are misinformed. The golf industry is filled with smoke and mirrors for nothing more than increasing profit margins. It’s not CC, it’s industry standard. The stock shafts cost dollars to make so they’re not viewed with any value. BUT if you want to get both a stock shaft and your aftermarket shaft, you can, you just have to request them to order it that way. To my knowledge, they don’t get a stock shaft when they order your head and upgraded shaft, unless you ask them to. When I did my driver fitting, at CC, my fitter actually suggested it.

I completely agree that most fitters have move away from old school “fitting” of taking static measurements. I mean, all the measurements in the world won’t get you as much info as one swing on a launch monitor. I’d agree that they could be a good starting point but if I’m paying for a fitting, I wouldn’t waste my time.

I disagree with idea that a fitter shouldn’t be like a coach. Good fitters absolutely are, they should be one in the same. All of my fittings have included small adjustments to my swing, mostly setup. Also a good fitter is thinking ahead to where your swing is headed. All of this should be discussed during your fitting. When I had my first fitting, my fitter asked me about how often I practice and if I was working to improve or just hacking around for fun. This lead him to put me in a driver shaft that he said I would grow into as apposed to one that I may outgrow in 6 months.

Their is information, as MGS has talked about, that suggests that higher handicap players can benefit the most from fitting. It makes sense, better players can make adjustments to make equipment work, higher cappers can’t. But as I’ve said before, gains are subjective and based on how well/ill fit your current clubs are. It’s also fair to say that if you play with the same clubs for years you make them work and they influence your swing.


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3 hours ago, ChitownM2 said:

From what I have read, I think that most of what upsets people about Club Champion and buying exotic shafts is that you don't get the "original" shaft that the club was assembled with from the manufacturer. If I'm paying full retail for the club + shaft combo from the manufacturer and paying full retail for my exotic shaft, I expect to get a head and 2 shafts. You could then recoup some of your costs by selling the stock shaft (especially when some OEMs offer some nice "no cost options" outside of the "stock" offering. 

I understand what you are saying, but at the same time I also don't.

Obviously everyone should go into a fitting with a baseline of what they are trying to achieve. My guess would be that this is almost always going to be either 1) more distance than my current club or 2) better dispersion that my current club or 3) both. 

Everything after that (swing weight, shaft length, profile, flex, loft & lie) are all based on your golf swing. I suppose you could take static measurements for all of those things, but from what I've always read about fittings, static measurements are at best a starting point and at worst completely useless (to the point where a lot of fitters don't even do them anymore).  How are you suggesting that all of these different metrics be "established" without hitting golf balls?

I underlined one of your statements above, and I completely agree with this, but that is not the job of the fitter.  This would be what a swing coach does. The fitter is almost always going to be fitting you for the best club given the swing that you bring with you that day.  Unless specifically instructed to do so, I can't imagine there are too many fitters out there recommending clubs based on where they think your swing will end up opposed to where it is. 

Ultimately, I agree with the OP, that the less consistent of a golfer you are (which probably very closely aligns with your HDCP) the more difficult it is to get meaningful results from a fitting. Swing speed is probably one thing that doesn't vary a ton for an inconsistent player, but tempo and swing path, can vary a lot shot to shot and day to day and those two items would have a large impact on finding the right head/shaft/loft combo.  

If you order a driver directly from the manufacturer with an upgraded shaft you pay full retail price plus the cost of the upgraded shaft and only get the upgraded shaft with it. Buying it from CC is no different than that or if you ordered it from your pro shop


Driver: Titleist 917D3 9.5 with Graphite Design MAD Pro 65g S

Wood: Titleist 917F2 with UST Mamiya Helium 5F4

Hybrid: Titleist 816H1 21 with Atmos Blue 85 S

Irons: Titleist 718 AP3 4i, 718 CB 5-6, MB 7-9 with KBS $ Taper 125

Wedges: Vokey SM7 46/50/54/60 with DG s200

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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