My Driver "Fitting?"

[Middler]

I did a driver fitting at Club Champion in Feb, got my new pured shaft-adapter-grip in Mar. The only paid fitting I'd ever done before was pre launch monitor, but I have hit on launch monitors at Golf Galaxy, PGA Superstore and a small independent golf store (also used the Mizuno Swing Analyzer there). I made it very clear I was looking to hit more fairways, presumably tighter dispersion. I told him I didn’t care about distance, I’d even give up distance for more fairways. He said he understood - though he kept highlighting when I was getting more or less distance. Here's my experience and preliminary results FWIW.

Fitting

I warmed up, to my satisfaction – though in hindsight it’s possible I should have hit a few more.

I first hit 5-6 shots with my driver as is. The dispersion was pretty bad, though I didn’t have any frame of reference until the fitter showed me all the dispersion's to come. I don’t recall if he threw out any of my baseline shots. [I will always wonder if that base line stock driver dispersion was bad because I was less warmed up than for subsequent shafts and heads.]

The fitter chose a current model driver head most like the 2018 model I came in with (a reasonable place to start). He told me we'd start with shafts and told me 80% of the result would come from getting the right shaft.

I then hit 4 good shots (bad shots were thrown out, fitters judgement…) each with 7-8 different shafts. One clearly had a tighter dispersion than the others.

I then hit 4 good shots (bad shot thrown out) each with 3 other heads. They were no better than the first head.

The Club Champion fitter recommended a new head, shaft and grip. Since the CC fitter had told me at the start that the right shaft would give me 80% of the desired improvement, I opted to buy just the new shaft-grip-adapter with my almost new 2018 driver head (replaced a few months ago). The list price for the new head was exactly the same as MSRP for the stock driver with the same head-stock shaft-adapter-grip, no reduction for omitting the stock shaft-adapter-grip --- that seems unfair to me.

Preliminary Results

I’ve now played 10 rounds with my new shaft and I have averaged 7 of 13 fairways on my regular course – I hit 10 fairways once. My last 25 rounds prior with the old stock shaft I averaged 8.1 of 13 fairways on my regular course – and hit 11 fairways 3 times. The new custom fitted driver does not feel any different to me, and my dispersion hasn't changed at all that I can see. There has been no change in distance, but I wasn’t looking for any.

Discussion

Unless you’re a very consistent ball striker, I would contend that 4 shots is nowhere near enough to establish dispersion with any combination of shaft and head, no matter how good or bad your swing is. I’ve seen several articles using from 30 to 70 shots to establish dispersion, though I realize that’s not practical for a fitting especially with 8 shafts and 3 heads. But 4 to draw meaningful conclusions???

I would contend that if I hit 28 consecutive shots with my previous stock driver, and grouped every 4 consecutive shots into 7 dispersion sets, they would a) not be the same even though nothing had changed, and b) one would probably be tighter than the others just out of pure random chance.

So I strongly suspect the shaft that seemed to perform the best that day was more by chance than anything else. I could have gone another day and hit all the same combinations in the same order, and another “best” could have easily emerged.

Every once in a while people go to fitters and their stock setup is as good or better than anything else the fitter puts in their hands. That might also be just chance, unlucky for Club Champion. Again since you establish a base line first with your stock driver, odds are you will hit better as you go, while using a shaft-head given to you by CC.

I will continue to play with the new driver, and reserve judgement until I’ve played 20-25 rounds, but so far it doesn’t appear there was any value added with my driver fitting at Club Champion. I wouldn’t have gone and paid for a fitting if I wasn’t hoping I’d actually see an improvement - I certainly didn’t want the exercise to fail.

While I am sure there are shaft-head-grips that best suit each of us that will improve our results (a little in most cases, a lot in a few cases) --- I don’t think the methodology above is a reliable way to find it at all. If MGS ever did a Buyers Guide of Club Fitters, that could be very interesting...but I'm not actually recommending it, way too controversial.

 

[THEZIPR23]

34 minutes ago, Middler said:

I did a driver fitting at Club Champion in Feb, got my new pured shaft-adapter-grip in Mar. The only paid fitting I'd ever done before was pre launch monitor, but I have hit on launch monitors at Golf Galaxy, PGA Superstore and a small independent golf store (also used the Mizuno Swing Analyzer there). I made it very clear I was looking to hit more fairways, presumably tighter dispersion. I told him I didn’t care about distance, I’d even give up distance for more fairways. He said he understood - though he kept highlighting when I was getting more or less distance. Here's my experience and preliminary results FWIW.

Fitting

I warmed up, to my satisfaction – though in hindsight it’s possible I should have hit a few more.

I first hit 5-6 shots with my driver as is. The dispersion was pretty bad, though I didn’t have any frame of reference until the fitter showed me all the dispersion's to come. I don’t recall if he threw out any of my baseline shots. [I will always wonder if that base line stock driver dispersion was bad because I was less warmed up than for subsequent shafts and heads.]

The fitter chose a current model driver head most like the 2018 model I came in with (a reasonable place to start). He told me we'd start with shafts and told me 80% of the result would come from getting the right shaft.

I then hit 4 good shots (bad shots were thrown out, fitters judgement…) each with 7-8 different shafts. One clearly had a tighter dispersion than the others.

I then hit 4 good shots (bad shot thrown out) each with 3 other heads. They were no better than the first head.

The Club Champion fitter recommended a new head, shaft and grip. Since the CC fitter had told me at the start that the right shaft would give me 80% of the desired improvement, I opted to buy just the new shaft-grip-adapter with my almost new 2018 driver head (replaced a few months ago). The list price for the new head was exactly the same as MSRP for the stock driver with the same head-stock shaft-adapter-grip, no reduction for omitting the stock shaft-adapter-grip --- that seems unfair to me.

Preliminary Results

I’ve now played 10 rounds with my new shaft and I have averaged 7 of 13 fairways on my regular course – I hit 10 fairways once. My last 25 rounds prior with the old stock shaft I averaged 8.1 of 13 fairways on my regular course – and hit 11 fairways 3 times. The new custom fitted driver does not feel any different to me, and my dispersion hasn't changed at all that I can see. There has been no change in distance, but I wasn’t looking for any.

Discussion

Unless you’re a very consistent ball striker, I would contend that 4 shots is nowhere near enough to establish dispersion with any combination of shaft and head, no matter how good or bad your swing is. I’ve seen several articles using from 30 to 70 shots to establish dispersion, though I realize that’s not practical for a fitting especially with 8 shafts and 3 heads. But 4 to draw meaningful conclusions???

I would contend that if I hit 28 consecutive shots with my previous stock driver, and grouped every 4 consecutive shots into 7 dispersion sets, they would a) not be the same even though nothing had changed, and b) one would probably be tighter than the others just out of pure random chance.

So I strongly suspect the shaft that seemed to perform the best that day was more by chance than anything else. I could have gone another day and hit all the same combinations in the same order, and another “best” could have easily emerged.

Every once in a while people go to fitters and their stock setup is as good or better than anything else the fitter puts in their hands. That might also be just chance, unlucky for Club Champion. Again since you establish a base line first with your stock driver, odds are you will hit better as you go, while using a shaft-head given to you by CC.

I will continue to play with the new driver, and reserve judgement until I’ve played 20-25 rounds, but so far it doesn’t appear there was any value added with my driver fitting at Club Champion. I wouldn’t have gone and paid for a fitting if I wasn’t hoping I’d actually see an improvement - I certainly didn’t want the exercise to fail.

While I am sure there are shaft-head-grips that best suit each of us that will improve our results (a little in most cases, a lot in a few cases) --- I don’t think the methodology above is a reliable way to find it at all. If MGS ever did a Buyers Guide of Club Fitters, that could be very interesting...but I'm not actually recommending it, way too controversial.

 

What would you change in the fitting to get your desired results?

[neva_adoubt]

I got fit for a Cobra King LTD when it first came out. He would change heads and shafts but not tell me what he changed. It always came back to the same set up he said was way better than my then current Ping G25. I didn't completely understand all the numbers, but I did point out the overall distance between the two next to nothing. He said it was the spin rates that would give me the distance I was looking for. It's a small local guy that owns the shop and his simulator is set at sea level so distance is always lower. He had the same driver as I was fitted for and swore by it. Although somewhat skeptical I bought it and it has been the best driver ever for me to date. Thinking about getting fitted again to see what happens.

[jddaigneault]

In my experience, true spec is far superior to club champion. Club champion pushes exotic shafts and puring (which in and of itself is a controversial topic in the fitting world given technology of new shafts). If location isn’t an issue for you, I’d recommend true spec. 

[LeftyRM7]

I did a driver fitting at Club Champion in Feb, got my new pured shaft-adapter-grip in Mar. The only paid fitting I'd ever done before was pre launch monitor, but I have hit on launch monitors at Golf Galaxy, PGA Superstore and a small independent golf store (also used the Mizuno Swing Analyzer there). I made it very clear I was looking to hit more fairways, presumably tighter dispersion. I told him I didn’t care about distance, I’d even give up distance for more fairways. He said he understood - though he kept highlighting when I was getting more or less distance. Here's my experience and preliminary results FWIW.
Fitting
I warmed up, to my satisfaction – though in hindsight it’s possible I should have hit a few more.
I first hit 5-6 shots with my driver as is. The dispersion was pretty bad, though I didn’t have any frame of reference until the fitter showed me all the dispersion's to come. I don’t recall if he threw out any of my baseline shots. [i will always wonder if that base line stock driver dispersion was bad because I was less warmed up than for subsequent shafts and heads.]
The fitter chose a current model driver head most like the 2018 model I came in with (a reasonable place to start). He told me we'd start with shafts and told me 80% of the result would come from getting the right shaft.
I then hit 4 good shots (bad shots were thrown out, fitters judgement…) each with 7-8 different shafts. One clearly had a tighter dispersion than the others.
I then hit 4 good shots (bad shot thrown out) each with 3 other heads. They were no better than the first head.
The Club Champion fitter recommended a new head, shaft and grip. Since the CC fitter had told me at the start that the right shaft would give me 80% of the desired improvement, I opted to buy just the new shaft-grip-adapter with my almost new 2018 driver head (replaced a few months ago). The list price for the new head was exactly the same as MSRP for the stock driver with the same head-stock shaft-adapter-grip, no reduction for omitting the stock shaft-adapter-grip --- that seems unfair to me.
Preliminary Results
I’ve now played 10 rounds with my new shaft and I have averaged 7 of 13 fairways on my regular course – I hit 10 fairways once. My last 25 rounds prior with the old stock shaft I averaged 8.1 of 13 fairways on my regular course – and hit 11 fairways 3 times. The new custom fitted driver does not feel any different to me, and my dispersion hasn't changed at all that I can see. There has been no change in distance, but I wasn’t looking for any.
Discussion
Unless you’re a very consistent ball striker, I would contend that 4 shots is nowhere near enough to establish dispersion with any combination of shaft and head, no matter how good or bad your swing is. I’ve seen several articles using from 30 to 70 shots to establish dispersion, though I realize that’s not practical for a fitting especially with 8 shafts and 3 heads. But 4 to draw meaningful conclusions???
I would contend that if I hit 28 consecutive shots with my previous stock driver, and grouped every 4 consecutive shots into 7 dispersion sets, they would a) not be the same even though nothing had changed, and b) one would probably be tighter than the others just out of pure random chance.
So I strongly suspect the shaft that seemed to perform the best that day was more by chance than anything else. I could have gone another day and hit all the same combinations in the same order, and another “best” could have easily emerged.
Every once in a while people go to fitters and their stock setup is as good or better than anything else the fitter puts in their hands. That might also be just chance, unlucky for Club Champion. Again since you establish a base line first with your stock driver, odds are you will hit better as you go, while using a shaft-head given to you by CC.
I will continue to play with the new driver, and reserve judgement until I’ve played 20-25 rounds, but so far it doesn’t appear there was any value added with my driver fitting at Club Champion. I wouldn’t have gone and paid for a fitting if I wasn’t hoping I’d actually see an improvement - I certainly didn’t want the exercise to fail.
While I am sure there are shaft-head-grips that best suit each of us that will improve our results (a little in most cases, a lot in a few cases) --- I don’t think the methodology above is a reliable way to find it at all. If MGS ever did a Buyers Guide of Club Fitters, that could be very interesting...but I'm not actually recommending it, way too controversial.
 

I see these same comments on here all the time and I just don’t understand it. The golfer will always be the biggest factor in your swing, not your equipment. Fittings are no different, and yes fittings on different days or different fitters will produce different results. It’s not perfect and their is no magic. The second biggest factor in fitting, is your fitter. It sounds to me like you were never on the same page with your fitter and that is a death sentence. Did he ask what you were willing to spend? Did he ask you if you wanted the best setup possible or if you wanted to stay in stock shaft offerings? Same with the puring, it should have been made an optional service at your discretion.

In his defense, I’d say you really didn’t buy the setup you were fit for anyways so there are some unknowns there. I’m not going to get into the shaft/head debate on what’s more important, but I’d say the pairing of the two together is important. Unfortunately, the MSRP on new products is what it is. You’re not going to find anything discounted until the next line comes out. OEMs have shafts mass produced for their heads to save on cost. The stock shafts cost a few dollars to produce. It makes fitting tough because you’re stuck paying top dollar for the latest equipment.

I feel like too many people don’t know what to really expect from fittings and they end up with a bad experience because it happens very fast and their is a lot that happens in a short time. Good fitters are hard to find and the more you know going into it the easier their job is. My advice would be to read some of the other fitting reviews on here, there’s some good information. Also if you’re really not happy with your purchase, talk to your fitter about it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jaskanski]

It never ceases to amaze me at what some people think constitutes a "fitting'. Swapping out shafts until you get an OK result is not a fitting. 

Without first establishing a set of baseline results to work against - you have not been fitted.

Without establishing the weight you are comfortable swinging - you have not been fitted.

Without establishing the correct shaft length - you have not been fitted.

Without establishing the shaft profile and flex - you have not been fitted.

Without establishing grip type and size - you have not been fitted.

Without establishing loft and face angle - you have not been fitted....these are all metrics which can be physically measured - if they are measured to your specifics, then you can call yourself custom fit. 

And this could be before you've even got LM results! If someone tells you that 80% of improvement is down to the right shaft, they're full of BS. You could improve by a reasonable margin by having the right grip, stance, alignment, ball position and tee height before you even started your backswing. The simple act of getting the clubhead to deliver back to the correct position in the swing to the ball is not just about a shaft - it's about the sum of all the parts that make it happen.

So next time you go into a store and the randomly swap shafts and use the 'trial and error' method of finding an acceptable result that is often short-lived, think about what 'custom-fitting' actually entails and achieves. The difference is night and day.

[juspoole]

So first off - I'm Jealous.  I could only dream of averaging 8 fairways a round! 

Secondly, it seemed to start off ok with the fitting.  Except, I think you will find most agree that the head should be fitted first and then the shaft from reading around here and listening to the guys at TXG.  

Third, I also went to a club champion fitting and I can say that I went back to my old combination much later in the fitting to give numbers after I had been warmed up.

Looking back, I do not think I got the in depth fitting I was looking for either. @jaskanski puts it in a fantastic perspective about many of the things that I feel like we didn't achieve during the club champion fitting either. Or at the very least just skipped through quickly. 

In fact, I just went to a Callaway Demo day for a 30 minute fitting and can say that the fitter spoke more about why he was choosing this flex or weight or profile or shaft than I had with the Club Champion fitting.  We first discovered that I was a higher spin player so the Sub Zero head would work best and which loft I should be working with.   Next he went through the stock shaft offerings first to try and make sure those may work for me when.  He gradually went up to other profiles that were exotic, but used price point as a guide (which my wallet appreciates).  Turns out that the Ventus Blue 7X was far and away the best fit no matter price.  I was looking for less weight on the shaft, but he spoke about why the 70-79 gram shaft would be much more consistent with my aggressive transition.  We looked at proper grip size for me.  Only thing we did not change and could not really change with that specific shaft was shaft length, but i did have impact tape on the driver so I had that feedback.

Edited May 31, 2020 by juspoole

[Middler]

6 hours ago, jaskanski said:

It never ceases to amaze me at what some people think constitutes a "fitting'. Swapping out shafts until you get an OK result is not a fitting. 

Without first establishing a set of baseline results to work against - you have not been fitted.

Without establishing the weight you are comfortable swinging - you have not been fitted.

Without establishing the correct shaft length - you have not been fitted.

Without establishing the shaft profile and flex - you have not been fitted.

Without establishing grip type and size - you have not been fitted.

Without establishing loft and face angle - you have not been fitted....these are all metrics which can be physically measured - if they are measured to your specifics, then you can call yourself custom fit. 

And this could be before you've even got LM results! If someone tells you that 80% of improvement is down to the right shaft, they're full of BS. You could improve by a reasonable margin by having the right grip, stance, alignment, ball position and tee height before you even started your backswing. The simple act of getting the clubhead to deliver back to the correct position in the swing to the ball is not just about a shaft - it's about the sum of all the parts that make it happen.

So next time you go into a store and the randomly swap shafts and use the 'trial and error' method of finding an acceptable result that is often short-lived, think about what 'custom-fitting' actually entails and achieves. The difference is night and day.

1 hour ago, juspoole said:

So first off - I'm Jealous.  I could only dream of averaging 8 fairways a round! 

Secondly, it seemed to start off ok with the fitting.  Except, I think you will find most agree that the head should be fitted first and then the shaft from reading around here and listening to the guys at TXG. So I should’ve gone to CC for a paid fitting, and then tell them how to proceed. This is why many of us are skeptical of fittings. It’s one thing when you get a free fitting at a big box store, but how has CC grown into a viable business? I’m not arguing, I’m asking. See quote below.

Third, I also went to a club champion fitting and I can say that I went back to my old combination much later in the fitting to give numbers after I had been warmed up.

Looking back, I do not think I got the in depth fitting I was looking for either. @jaskanski puts it in a fantastic perspective about many of the things that I feel like we didn't achieve during the club champion fitting either. Or at the very least just skipped through quickly. 

In fact, I just went to a Callaway Demo day for a 30 minute fitting and can say that the fitter spoke more about why he was choosing this flex or weight or profile or shaft than I had with the Club Champion fitting.  We first discovered that I was a higher spin player so the Sub Zero head would work best and which loft I should be working with.   Next he went through the stock shaft offerings first to try and make sure those may work for me when.  He gradually went up to other profiles that were exotic, but used price point as a guide (which my wallet appreciates).  Turns out that the Ventus Blue 7X was far and away the best fit no matter price.  I was looking for less weight on the shaft, but he spoke about why the 70-79 gram shaft would be much more consistent with my aggressive transition.  We looked at proper grip size for me.  Only thing we did not change and could not really change with that specific shaft was shaft length, but i did have impact tape on the driver so I had that feedback.

Quote

The fitting process at Club Champion is similar—but not necessarily the same—to what you’ll find at most agnostic fitters (Hot Stix, Cool Clubs, True Spec Golf, and others). The process starts by hitting your current clubs and using a launch monitor to track and store your distance, spin rate, and many other data points. This provides a baseline: Subsequent clubs and shafts are measured against it.

The fitter starts by selecting the same, or very similar, clubhead to what you are currently playing and then experiments with shafts of different weight, length, flex, and flex point until finding the best one for that part of your game. Once the shaft is set, the fitter does the same with clubheads until the data uncovers the best option.

So where do I get the fitting you two recommend? Club Champion, along with a couple others, has been held up as a legit fitting experience many times here - MGS staff included? Now that I’ve been, I agree the CC methodology is highly suspect statistically. Sets of four shots isn’t statistically valid.

[PlaidJacket]

Seems to me that many folks think a fitting is a "one and done" proposition. (Disclosure: my last iron fitting was a one and done after 4 hours including breaks and discussions.) I also recommend seeking out club fitters that have a long history applying their trade and didn't get into fitting with the advent of LM's. It's like every person/store with a LM are club fitters these days. There is one product that absolutely worked for tightening shot dispersion and that the ShotMaker. I have it my 4w but not my current driver. I had one in my SLDR but just haven't removed it (yet) and put it in my EXS. Hmmm?

Sadly, the ShotMaker is no longer made and I have not been able to find any on the web. I'd buy the inventory if I could. They're that good. If anyone can find these anywhere I'd like to know about it. As far as I know Harrison doesn't make them anymore. According to Michael Chang at Harrison that is.

https://mygolfspy.com/harrison-shotmaker-review/

[RickyBobby_PR]

I’m curious if the goal is just or hit more fairways just to have that stat look better. Of it doesn’t lead to more GIR does it even matter? 
 

What happens when you hit 6 fairways but 12 greens? Do you score better than when you hit 8 fairways and 6 greens?

[LeftyRM7]

Seems to me that many folks think a fitting is a "one and done" proposition.[/url]

This. I look at fittings no different than lessons. You’d never go to a single lesson and believe that it would make a huge impact on your game. Most likely you’d work on some of the things your coach talked about and then come back for another lesson with some feedback and continue to build each lesson. I don’t understand why people have this idea that a fitter can watch you swing a few dozen times in an hour or so and have a sizable impact on your game.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Middler]

On 5/31/2020 at 11:27 AM, LeftyRM7 said:

This. I look at fittings no different than lessons. You’d never go to a single lesson and believe that it would make a huge impact on your game. Most likely you’d work on some of the things your coach talked about and then come back for another lesson with some feedback and continue to build each lesson. I don’t understand why people have this idea that a fitter can watch you swing a few dozen times in an hour or so and have a sizable impact on your game.
 

I may be wrong, but of all the hundreds of posts I've read about how valuable a proper fitting is, and Club Champion is often included among the "best" - I don't recall one that said it would take multiple fittings. Club Champion certainly doesn't say that, quite the opposite https://clubchampiongolf.com/our-process/what-to-expect

If I'd known their methodology beforehand I probably wouldn't have bothered. It might work for a player with a highly repeatable swing, but it's statistically questionable for others.

I should've kept with my instincts after reading their ad copy and the source - you'd have to come in grossly misfit to have those results on average...

Quote

Results Don't Lie According to Golf Digest, eight out of nine Club Champion customers who went through a custom golf club fitting added an average of 21 yards off the tee and lowered their scores by as much as six strokes per round. It isn’t just about the tee shot: our customers also found an average gain of 13 yards with fitted irons.

 

 

[THEZIPR23]

32 minutes ago, Middler said:

If I'd known their methodology beforehand I probably wouldn't have bothered. It might work for a player with a highly repeatable swing, but it's statistically questionable for others.

 

So what you are saying is that no one should get fit? I am a plus handicap. I take two swings back to back regularly and they are not the same. There are less than .5% of golfers that have a "highly repeatable" swing. 

[Middler]

47 minutes ago, THEZIPR23 said:

So what you are saying is that no one should get fit? I am a plus handicap. I take two swings back to back regularly and they are not the same. There are less than .5% of golfers that have a "highly repeatable" swing. 

I wasn't looking for a fight - show me where I said "no one should get fit?" In fact I said it could be for some subset of players. Repeatable is relative, along a continuum, it's certainly not a yes-no proposition - so "less than 0.5%" repeatable comes from where?

If you read my description - I know people who are way more likely to get a relative dispersion from 4 shots, and people who won't. If you're in the former group, you could have a meaningful fitting at the CC I went to. I was simply saying a serious paid fitting as described in the OP may not be beneficial for every player. I see people here and elsewhere who claim fittings are good for all HI, even some who claim high HI players can derive the most benefit. Possible, but not likely IMO.

It's interesting how many replies have led me to regret starting the thread. IF anyone had addressed the statistically validity or methodology I would have welcomed that. No one came back with anything but anecdotal rebuttals, vague "what did you expect?" or I should have known or told CC how to conduct the fitting responses.

[THEZIPR23]

4 minutes ago, Middler said:

I wasn't looking for a fight - show me where I said "no one should get fit?" Repeatable is relative, along a continuum, it's certainly not a yes-no proposition - so "less than 0.5%" repeatable comes from where?

If you read my description - I know people who are way more likely to get a relative dispersion from 4 shots, and people who won't. If you're in the former group, you could have a meaningful fitting at the CC I went to. I was simply saying a serious paid fitting as described in the OP may not be beneficial for every player. I see people here and elsewhere who claim fittings are good for all HI, even some who claim high HI players can derive the most benefit. Possible, but not likely IMO.

Not sure where the fight got started, I simply asked a question, if you took it as a fight that's on you.

Obviously you don't like being questioned so I will bow out. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, Middler said:

I wasn't looking for a fight - show me where I said "no one should get fit?" In fact I said it could be for some subset of players. Repeatable is relative, along a continuum, it's certainly not a yes-no proposition - so "less than 0.5%" repeatable comes from where?

If you read my description - I know people who are way more likely to get a relative dispersion from 4 shots, and people who won't. If you're in the former group, you could have a meaningful fitting at the CC I went to. I was simply saying a serious paid fitting as described in the OP may not be beneficial for every player. I see people here and elsewhere who claim fittings are good for all HI, even some who claim high HI players can derive the most benefit. Possible, but not likely IMO.

It's interesting how many replies have led me to regret starting the thread. IF anyone had addressed the statistically validity or methodology I would have welcomed that. No one came back with anything but anecdotal rebuttals, vague "what did you expect?" or I should have known or told CC how to conduct the fitting responses.

The reason a small about of shots are used by fitters is because the golfer will start to adjust their swing to try and make a club work based on numbers and/or ball flight. Keeping it low is to get an average of the shots with the golfers true swing, it doesn’t take a good fitter long to see what needs to be changed. They May make a change to the opposite end of the spectrum to see what that does then start dialing it back in. For example if a person is hitting lots of slices they will go full draw to see the change then based on that make tweaks. 
 

The fitter is trying to optimize the launch characteristics. This helps in both finding the right spot for distance and dispersion. 
 

And yes based on your post about seeing CC referenced in fittings you should have known their process from reading those threads along with their pricing of paying full retail price for a club plus the shaft and any work they do like puring. 

[Middler]

2 hours ago, THEZIPR23 said:

Not sure where the fight got started, I simply asked a question, if you took it as a fight that's on you.

Obviously you don't like being questioned so I will bow out. 

You claimed I’m saying no one should get fit, I never said that period. If that wasn’t provocative on your part, so be it. And then you offered a repeatability stat I find very hard to believe, with no supporting source.

Readers are well able to judge the OP for themselves, so I’m done with this thread, thanks.

[ChitownM2]

On 5/29/2020 at 7:04 PM, LeftyRM7 said:

 Unfortunately, the MSRP on new products is what it is. You’re not going to find anything discounted until the next line comes out. OEMs have shafts mass produced for their heads to save on cost. The stock shafts cost a few dollars to produce. It makes fitting tough because you’re stuck paying top dollar for the latest equipment.

From what I have read, I think that most of what upsets people about Club Champion and buying exotic shafts is that you don't get the "original" shaft that the club was assembled with from the manufacturer. If I'm paying full retail for the club + shaft combo from the manufacturer and paying full retail for my exotic shaft, I expect to get a head and 2 shafts. You could then recoup some of your costs by selling the stock shaft (especially when some OEMs offer some nice "no cost options" outside of the "stock" offering. 

On 5/31/2020 at 1:54 AM, jaskanski said:

It never ceases to amaze me at what some people think constitutes a "fitting'. Swapping out shafts until you get an OK result is not a fitting. 

Without first establishing a set of baseline results to work against - you have not been fitted.

Without establishing the weight you are comfortable swinging - you have not been fitted.

Without establishing the correct shaft length - you have not been fitted.

Without establishing the shaft profile and flex - you have not been fitted.

Without establishing grip type and size - you have not been fitted.

Without establishing loft and face angle - you have not been fitted....these are all metrics which can be physically measured - if they are measured to your specifics, then you can call yourself custom fit. 

And this could be before you've even got LM results! If someone tells you that 80% of improvement is down to the right shaft, they're full of BS. You could improve by a reasonable margin by having the right grip, stance, alignment, ball position and tee height before you even started your backswing. The simple act of getting the clubhead to deliver back to the correct position in the swing to the ball is not just about a shaft - it's about the sum of all the parts that make it happen.

So next time you go into a store and the randomly swap shafts and use the 'trial and error' method of finding an acceptable result that is often short-lived, think about what 'custom-fitting' actually entails and achieves. The difference is night and day.

I understand what you are saying, but at the same time I also don't.

Obviously everyone should go into a fitting with a baseline of what they are trying to achieve. My guess would be that this is almost always going to be either 1) more distance than my current club or 2) better dispersion that my current club or 3) both. 

Everything after that (swing weight, shaft length, profile, flex, loft & lie) are all based on your golf swing. I suppose you could take static measurements for all of those things, but from what I've always read about fittings, static measurements are at best a starting point and at worst completely useless (to the point where a lot of fitters don't even do them anymore).  How are you suggesting that all of these different metrics be "established" without hitting golf balls?

I underlined one of your statements above, and I completely agree with this, but that is not the job of the fitter.  This would be what a swing coach does. The fitter is almost always going to be fitting you for the best club given the swing that you bring with you that day.  Unless specifically instructed to do so, I can't imagine there are too many fitters out there recommending clubs based on where they think your swing will end up opposed to where it is. 

Ultimately, I agree with the OP, that the less consistent of a golfer you are (which probably very closely aligns with your HDCP) the more difficult it is to get meaningful results from a fitting. Swing speed is probably one thing that doesn't vary a ton for an inconsistent player, but tempo and swing path, can vary a lot shot to shot and day to day and those two items would have a large impact on finding the right head/shaft/loft combo.  

[LeftyRM7]

I understand what you are saying, but at the same time I also don't.
Obviously everyone should go into a fitting with a baseline of what they are trying to achieve. My guess would be that this is almost always going to be either 1) more distance than my current club or 2) better dispersion that my current club or 3) both. 
Everything after that (swing weight, shaft length, profile, flex, loft & lie) are all based on your golf swing. I suppose you could take static measurements for all of those things, but from what I've always read about fittings, static measurements are at best a starting point and at worst completely useless (to the point where a lot of fitters don't even do them anymore).  How are you suggesting that all of these different metrics be "established" without hitting golf balls?
I underlined one of your statements above, and I completely agree with this, but that is not the job of the fitter.  This would be what a swing coach does. The fitter is almost always going to be fitting you for the best club given the swing that you bring with you that day.  Unless specifically instructed to do so, I can't imagine there are too many fitters out there recommending clubs based on where they think your swing will end up opposed to where it is. 
Ultimately, I agree with the OP, that the less consistent of a golfer you are (which probably very closely aligns with your HDCP) the more difficult it is to get meaningful results from a fitting. Swing speed is probably one thing that doesn't vary a ton for an inconsistent player, but tempo and swing path, can vary a lot shot to shot and day to day and those two items would have a large impact on finding the right head/shaft/loft combo.  

I’ve read that about CC on here so many times but those people are misinformed. The golf industry is filled with smoke and mirrors for nothing more than increasing profit margins. It’s not CC, it’s industry standard. The stock shafts cost dollars to make so they’re not viewed with any value. BUT if you want to get both a stock shaft and your aftermarket shaft, you can, you just have to request them to order it that way. To my knowledge, they don’t get a stock shaft when they order your head and upgraded shaft, unless you ask them to. When I did my driver fitting, at CC, my fitter actually suggested it.

I completely agree that most fitters have move away from old school “fitting” of taking static measurements. I mean, all the measurements in the world won’t get you as much info as one swing on a launch monitor. I’d agree that they could be a good starting point but if I’m paying for a fitting, I wouldn’t waste my time.

I disagree with idea that a fitter shouldn’t be like a coach. Good fitters absolutely are, they should be one in the same. All of my fittings have included small adjustments to my swing, mostly setup. Also a good fitter is thinking ahead to where your swing is headed. All of this should be discussed during your fitting. When I had my first fitting, my fitter asked me about how often I practice and if I was working to improve or just hacking around for fun. This lead him to put me in a driver shaft that he said I would grow into as apposed to one that I may outgrow in 6 months.

Their is information, as MGS has talked about, that suggests that higher handicap players can benefit the most from fitting. It makes sense, better players can make adjustments to make equipment work, higher cappers can’t. But as I’ve said before, gains are subjective and based on how well/ill fit your current clubs are. It’s also fair to say that if you play with the same clubs for years you make them work and they influence your swing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[RickyBobby_PR]

3 hours ago, ChitownM2 said:

From what I have read, I think that most of what upsets people about Club Champion and buying exotic shafts is that you don't get the "original" shaft that the club was assembled with from the manufacturer. If I'm paying full retail for the club + shaft combo from the manufacturer and paying full retail for my exotic shaft, I expect to get a head and 2 shafts. You could then recoup some of your costs by selling the stock shaft (especially when some OEMs offer some nice "no cost options" outside of the "stock" offering. 

I understand what you are saying, but at the same time I also don't.

Obviously everyone should go into a fitting with a baseline of what they are trying to achieve. My guess would be that this is almost always going to be either 1) more distance than my current club or 2) better dispersion that my current club or 3) both. 

Everything after that (swing weight, shaft length, profile, flex, loft & lie) are all based on your golf swing. I suppose you could take static measurements for all of those things, but from what I've always read about fittings, static measurements are at best a starting point and at worst completely useless (to the point where a lot of fitters don't even do them anymore).  How are you suggesting that all of these different metrics be "established" without hitting golf balls?

I underlined one of your statements above, and I completely agree with this, but that is not the job of the fitter.  This would be what a swing coach does. The fitter is almost always going to be fitting you for the best club given the swing that you bring with you that day.  Unless specifically instructed to do so, I can't imagine there are too many fitters out there recommending clubs based on where they think your swing will end up opposed to where it is. 

Ultimately, I agree with the OP, that the less consistent of a golfer you are (which probably very closely aligns with your HDCP) the more difficult it is to get meaningful results from a fitting. Swing speed is probably one thing that doesn't vary a ton for an inconsistent player, but tempo and swing path, can vary a lot shot to shot and day to day and those two items would have a large impact on finding the right head/shaft/loft combo.  

If you order a driver directly from the manufacturer with an upgraded shaft you pay full retail price plus the cost of the upgraded shaft and only get the upgraded shaft with it. Buying it from CC is no different than that or if you ordered it from your pro shop

[ChitownM2]

2 hours ago, LeftyRM7 said:

Their is information, as MGS has talked about, that suggests that higher handicap players can benefit the most from fitting. It makes sense, better players can make adjustments to make equipment work, higher cappers can’t. But as I’ve said before, gains are subjective and based on how well/ill fit your current clubs are. It’s also fair to say that if you play with the same clubs for years you make them work and they influence your swing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That is the key. A high handicapper with an ill fit set would benefit from some kind of fitting.  If your clubs are grossly too short or long or shaft flex is way wrong, or your playing super unforgiving blades, those are things that could prevent you from improving. I don't see the difference between a 50 vs 60 gram shaft or a mid vs mid/low launch shaft making a substantial difference to a high handicapper's game. 

So I guess that is where the definition of a fitting comes in. A reasonably competent "fitter" at a big box retailer with a launch monitor could probably be almost as good for a high handicap player as what he might get paying $150 for a fitting at CC. The "fine tuning" you get at a CC or truespec with an exotic shaft is, imo, better suited to a more consistent golfer. Where that line is probably depends on the weakness of the individual golfer.

1 hour ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

If you order a driver directly from the manufacturer with an upgraded shaft you pay full retail price plus the cost of the upgraded shaft and only get the upgraded shaft with it. Buying it from CC is no different than that or if you ordered it from your pro shop

Most manufacturers give you an offsetting credit. For example, cobra charges a $240 upcharge for a ventus blue shaft but buying it alone at retail is $350. 

[jddaigneault]

44 minutes ago, ChitownM2 said:

That is the key. A high handicapper with an ill fit set would benefit from some kind of fitting.  If your clubs are grossly too short or long or shaft flex is way wrong, or your playing super unforgiving blades, those are things that could prevent you from improving. I don't see the difference between a 50 vs 60 gram shaft or a mid vs mid/low launch shaft making a substantial difference to a high handicapper's game. 

So I guess that is where the definition of a fitting comes in. A reasonably competent "fitter" at a big box retailer with a launch monitor could probably be almost as good for a high handicap player as what he might get paying $150 for a fitting at CC. The "fine tuning" you get at a CC or truespec with an exotic shaft is, imo, better suited to a more consistent golfer. Where that line is probably depends on the weakness of the individual golfer.

Most manufacturers give you an offsetting credit. For example, cobra charges a $240 upcharge for a ventus blue shaft but buying it alone at retail is $350. 

I think the real benefit is going to someone that really understands shaft make up. For example, Nippon Modus Tour 120 and 130 have completely different shaft profiles. The 120 actually had a stiffer tip (if I’m not mistaken)! A big box store would likely say the 130 is heavier and will play stiffer. It FEELS stiffer in your hands but wouldn’t control the clubhead the way the 120 will. So, for a high handicapper this could be even more crucial because they need the assist in keeping the club face square at impact. 

Ultimately, the narrative is the same. Get fit from a qualified fitter. We have CC and true spec near me, and the best fitter is a small specialty shop The Bunker (who appeared on a NPG episode). Ask around your area and see whose name pops the most. It’ll be worth whatever it costs. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

6 hours ago, ChitownM2 said:

That is the key. A high handicapper with an ill fit set would benefit from some kind of fitting.  If your clubs are grossly too short or long or shaft flex is way wrong, or your playing super unforgiving blades, those are things that could prevent you from improving. I don't see the difference between a 50 vs 60 gram shaft or a mid vs mid/low launch shaft making a substantial difference to a high handicapper's game. 

So I guess that is where the definition of a fitting comes in. A reasonably competent "fitter" at a big box retailer with a launch monitor could probably be almost as good for a high handicap player as what he might get paying $150 for a fitting at CC. The "fine tuning" you get at a CC or truespec with an exotic shaft is, imo, better suited to a more consistent golfer. Where that line is probably depends on the weakness of the individual golfer.

Most manufacturers give you an offsetting credit. For example, cobra charges a $240 upcharge for a ventus blue shaft but buying it alone at retail is $350. 

Yes because they are buying them in a larger quantity and unlike buying from an authorized dealer there isn’t the middle man pricing but again when you buy from cobra or TM you still pay the full price of the club plus their upcharge fee for the shaft. 

[Golfspy_CG2]

12 hours ago, LeftyRM7 said:

I’ve read that about CC on here so many times but those people are misinformed. The golf industry is filled with smoke and mirrors for nothing more than increasing profit margins. It’s not CC, it’s industry standard. The stock shafts cost dollars to make so they’re not viewed with any value. BUT if you want to get both a stock shaft and your aftermarket shaft, you can, you just have to request them to order it that way. To my knowledge, they don’t get a stock shaft when they order your head and upgraded shaft, unless you ask them to. When I did my driver fitting, at CC, my fitter actually suggested it.

I completely agree that most fitters have move away from old school “fitting” of taking static measurements. I mean, all the measurements in the world won’t get you as much info as one swing on a launch monitor. I’d agree that they could be a good starting point but if I’m paying for a fitting, I wouldn’t waste my time.

I disagree with idea that a fitter shouldn’t be like a coach. Good fitters absolutely are, they should be one in the same. All of my fittings have included small adjustments to my swing, mostly setup. Also a good fitter is thinking ahead to where your swing is headed. All of this should be discussed during your fitting. When I had my first fitting, my fitter asked me about how often I practice and if I was working to improve or just hacking around for fun. This lead him to put me in a driver shaft that he said I would grow into as apposed to one that I may outgrow in 6 months.

Their is information, as MGS has talked about, that suggests that higher handicap players can benefit the most from fitting. It makes sense, better players can make adjustments to make equipment work, higher cappers can’t. But as I’ve said before, gains are subjective and based on how well/ill fit your current clubs are. It’s also fair to say that if you play with the same clubs for years you make them work and they influence your swing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The bolded part is so true.  Anyone that has seen my fitting video on TXG saw exactly this, Ian stopped and spent about 20 minutes with me on swing modification, it was highlighted in the video.  He explains how a good fitting often times includes a bit of coaching to get the desired results.  And to be fair he went back and tested my original set with the swing modifications and it showed why they were not the right make up for me.

As to one of the original questions by the Middier....you had a fitter that did not follow they CC protocol.   The owner Nick has said many times on many podcasts/video cast that they will fit the head first as it's most vital part to get dialed in and then go with the shaft. 

As to the number of shots used four in this case.  Most fitters can see within that many shots what your tendencies are and if a club or shaft is right for you or not

Finally you can't really blame the fitting, UNLESS I missed something, you didn't take the whole recommendation, you took a shaft recommendation and went with a head of your own choosing, not one that was tested with that shaft during the fitting.  Again, unless I missed something in your post.

[ChitownM2]

10 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Yes because they are buying them in a larger quantity and unlike buying from an authorized dealer there isn’t the middle man pricing but again when you buy from cobra or TM you still pay the full price of the club plus their upcharge fee for the shaft. 

I'll just re-iterate that their upcharge fee is not the full retail price of the shaft and that is all that matters. For the 99.99% of people out there who do not have the opportunity to buy at wholesale, this is a cost savings. I can get a $450 driver + a $350 shaft from cobra for $690 where as the same driver with a similar $350 shaft will cost me $800 from CC. So I'd expect to either A) get a discount (unlikely and not under CC's control) or B) if I'm paying for a stock shaft then I should receive that shaft as well by default without having to specifically request it. Almost all of the OEMs have no cost optional shafts that have actual value on the secondary market. It should be my choice whether I want to keep that extra shaft, throw it in the trash or try to resell it.

Although I do not have direct knowledge, I assume that places like CC & Truespec take the stock shafts (or no charge upgrade shafts) that come with the clubs they order and likely resell them on the wholesale market to the type of independent golf shops you see on ebay selling a variety of shaft options at discounted prices.

[ChitownM2]

20 hours ago, LeftyRM7 said:

I disagree with idea that a fitter shouldn’t be like a coach. Good fitters absolutely are, they should be one in the same. All of my fittings have included small adjustments to my swing, mostly setup. Also a good fitter is thinking ahead to where your swing is headed. All of this should be discussed during your fitting. When I had my first fitting, my fitter asked me about how often I practice and if I was working to improve or just hacking around for fun. This lead him to put me in a driver shaft that he said I would grow into as apposed to one that I may outgrow in 6 months.

I probably didn't clarify my statement sufficiently. I don't think that a fitter shouldn't be a coach, just that most of them out there are not and probably a very large majority of them are not qualified to be a coach. It's hard enough to find "good fitters" that aren't just a guy with a launch monitor. I think that the latter group, more times than not, will just fit you for the swing you bring in with you and that is probably what they should be doing rather than offering advice on something they shouldn't be. 

Certainly it's a great benefit to find a fitter that is capable of and qualified to offer advice to further get you into the best equipment. Personally, I'm looking at options for lessons now and one of the main things I'm looking for is to find a person or group that also offers club fittings from the manufacturers I'm interested in. 

Edited June 4, 2020 by ChitownM2

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, ChitownM2 said:

I'll just re-iterate that their upcharge fee is not the full retail price of the shaft and that is all that matters. For the 99.99% of people out there who do not have the opportunity to buy at wholesale, this is a cost savings. I can get a $450 driver + a $350 shaft from cobra for $690 where as the same driver with a similar $350 shaft will cost me $800 from CC. So I'd expect to either A) get a discount (unlikely and not under CC's control) or B) if I'm paying for a stock shaft then I should receive that shaft as well by default without having to specifically request it. Almost all of the OEMs have no cost optional shafts that have actual value on the secondary market. It should be my choice whether I want to keep that extra shaft, throw it in the trash or try to resell it.

Although I do not have direct knowledge, I assume that places like CC & Truespec take the stock shafts (or no charge upgrade shafts) that come with the clubs they order and likely resell them on the wholesale market to the type of independent golf shops you see on ebay selling a variety of shaft options at discounted prices.

The op was upset he would have to pay the retail price of the driver ($450 in your example) plus the CC price of the upcharge shaft. 
 

Places like CC, Truspec, People’s Clubs ams other authorized dealers have to make money as well so there’s fees included that allow the shaft manufacturer and the dealer to make money. So yes you pay retail price of the driver plus CC price for the shaft. 
 

When you order Cobra directly or thru a pro shop you pay the same $450 retail price of the driver and their price of the upgrade shaft. Cobra or any other brand is going to order the aftermarket shafts in large quantities and thus pay less thru negotiated prices with the shaft manufacturers. So when yes while you pay slightly less for the upgrade shaft plus head you are paying the price the brand charges 

In both situations you are paying 1) the full retail price of a club plus the set price by the seller for the upgrade shaft and in both situations you don’t receive a free no cost shaft of your choice. 
 

You can play whatever semantics/pricing game but at the end of the day you pay full retail for the drive plus a fee for choosing an upgraded shaft regardless of where you buy it from and you only get that shaft

[Middler]

10 hours ago, Golfspy_CG2 said:

The bolded part is so true.  Anyone that has seen my fitting video on TXG saw exactly this, Ian stopped and spent about 20 minutes with me on swing modification, it was highlighted in the video.  He explains how a good fitting often times includes a bit of coaching to get the desired results.  And to be fair he went back and tested my original set with the swing modifications and it showed why they were not the right make up for me.

As to one of the original questions by the Middier....you had a fitter that did not follow they CC protocol.   The owner Nick has said many times on many podcasts/video cast that they will fit the head first as it's most vital part to get dialed in and then go with the shaft. 

As to the number of shots used four in this case.  Most fitters can see within that many shots what your tendencies are and if a club or shaft is right for you or not

Finally you can't really blame the fitting, UNLESS I missed something, you didn't take the whole recommendation, you took a shaft recommendation and went with a head of your own choosing, not one that was tested with that shaft during the fitting.  Again, unless I missed something in your post.

I might get that if it was a radically different head. The fitter used a standard Callaway Mavrik head, I already had a standard Callaway Rogue head - would you think that would make a big difference (asking)? The TXG Mavrik v Rogue driver test, that I watched 3 months ago, basically said they were very similar performers...

The CC fitter presented a recommendation using a Mavrik head, that's no surprise. When I asked the fitter what could I expect for results if I just bought the recommended shaft-grip-adapter (for $500 less) and used my Rogue head, he once again told me I could expect 80% of the benefit. He never said anything to suggest my Rogue head wouldn't be OK. Why would I spend another $500 to replace a Rogue head with a Mavrik head if I'm getting 80% of the benefit with the Rogue head? Which I am still not seeing after 12 rounds BTW.

There was zero coaching or comment on my swing - zero.

Of course fitting isn't magic, but I've read a hundred times here and elsewhere that everyone should have their clubs custom fit no matter what caliber player they are. So far I'm no worse but no better...

And I'm still a little surprised at the posts telling me all the ways I should've known better - particularly 'everyone knows you pick the head first.' On my first paid fitting, I should already know and have to tell Club Champion how to go about a proper fitting? I wouldn't go to a doctor, lawyer, engineer, financial advisor - pay for their services and proceed to tell them how to treat/advise me. If you know enough to do it yourself, why pay someone else? Reminds me of the saying "by the time you know enough to pick a great financial advisor over a bad/mediocre one, you don't need an advisor..."

[ChitownM2]

1 hour ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

You can play whatever semantics/pricing game but at the end of the day you pay full retail for the drive plus a fee for choosing an upgraded shaft regardless of where you buy it from and you only get that shaft

Except it's not semantics and you're not paying full retail if you buy from the OEM. Full retail would be $350 for the shaft. The OEM is only charging you $240 that is not full retail. They are selling you the shaft at or near cost. CC or others are charging you for the fitting time + charging you full MSRP on the head (which has ~30% profit) + full MSRP on the shaft (another 30-35% profit).

Yes, you don't get the "extra" shaft under either scenario, but when you buy from the OEM you are accepting the trade of the stock shaft for a a substantial discount on the exotic one. 

Another worthwhile question would be does CC, Truespec, etc order "unassembled" clubs from the OEM or are they literally just buying heads? My money would be on purchasing unassembled clubs which means those unused shafts end up somewhere. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

36 minutes ago, ChitownM2 said:

Except it's not semantics and you're not paying full retail if you buy from the OEM. Full retail would be $350 for the shaft. The OEM is only charging you $240 that is not full retail. They are selling you the shaft at or near cost. CC or others are charging you for the fitting time + charging you full MSRP on the head (which has ~30% profit) + full MSRP on the shaft (another 30-35% profit).

Yes, you don't get the "extra" shaft under either scenario, but when you buy from the OEM you are accepting the trade of the stock shaft for a a substantial discount on the exotic one. 

Another worthwhile question would be does CC, Truespec, etc order "unassembled" clubs from the OEM or are they literally just buying heads? My money would be on purchasing unassembled clubs which means those unused shafts end up somewhere. 

The retail price of a club is X. That price is for the head and the a no upcharge shaft. Plain and simple. When you order an upgrade shaft you are paying the price of a component. Like any other after market component for any product that price is going to vary based on where you buy it. If you buy it strait from the course your are going to save money compared to buying it form a dealer.

I don’t know if club champion gets a club play head or if they are shipped just the head but they pay the full price for the club either way that is why they charge the customer the price of the club plus the price of the price for the upgraded shaft and that applies to all clubs including iron sets.