Penalty or no?

[Brian A]

So if you’re plying a casual game with friends and everyone clearly without a doubt sees the ball land in play with no OB around but it can’t be found, penalty or not? 
 

I know the “rule” is a penalty but if you had spotters like on tour, you wouldn’t have lost the ball in grass/plug/rough

[Titleist87]

Casual game is where we just drop where we think the ball should be, play on, no penalty.

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[DiscipleofPenick]

Casual game is where we just drop where we think the ball should be, play on, no penalty.

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Agree 100%

Take Dead Aim

[SlowNLow]

This happens in the fall when the leaves drop,  I'd tend to give a break to somebody if their ball is lost in one of these spaces.   

Depends on the group, if we are playing for money, etc.

 

[palvord]

Do I like the guy that this happened to? That's the real question.

I have only ever taken a penalty or insisted someone take a penalty in this situation if money is involved. Other than that, free drop.

 

 

[Nolan220]

Like others posted above, in a causal game not doubt free drop, this happen to me where it was right off the fair way in the first cut and everyone was confused we couldn't find not big deal. But if there is money involved and depending on the person I am betting with could be a penalty. 

[DaveP043]

I play with a group of guys who all play pretty much by the rules.  If we know there are issues with leaves, we might decide to play a "leaf rule" before we start.  But if we haven't discussed it before play, we'd call it a lost ball and take the penalty.  This isn't high-stakes gambling, this is small potatoes, and we're all friends, but we've made a conscious choice to follow all of the rules.  With different groups of friends, we'd take a free drop.

[Kenny B]

My course doesn't have many trees.  Adjacent fairways are divided by high mounds of rough so that while playing a hole, you can't see the adjacent holes.  The rough isn't very deep, so most balls can be seen even from a distance.  A bad slice or hook off the tee will likely be in the fairway... just not your fairway.  When looking for your ball, it likely won't be there because someone in the other fairway picked it up.  It's a muni, so it happens.  Doesn't happen in tournaments, but casual play...Free drop.

And YES, balls flying in from adjacent holes is a hazard.  In the 5 years that I have been a member, I average about 25 times a year that balls have landed within 20 yards of me with no one yelling Fore! because they don't know you are there and it's next to the Interstate so you couldn't hear it anyway.  If I didn't like the people at the course and if it wasn't in decent shape or convenient, I'd play elsewhere.

[SlowNLow]

11 hours ago, Kenny B said:

My course doesn't have many trees.  Adjacent fairways are divided by high mounds of rough so that while playing a hole, you can't see the adjacent holes.  The rough isn't very deep, so most balls can be seen even from a distance.  A bad slice or hook off the tee will likely be in the fairway... just not your fairway.  When looking for your ball, it likely won't be there because someone in the other fairway picked it up.  It's a muni, so it happens.  Doesn't happen in tournaments, but casual play...Free drop.

And YES, balls flying in from adjacent holes is a hazard.  In the 5 years that I have been a member, I average about 25 times a year that balls have landed within 20 yards of me with no one yelling Fore! because they don't know you are there and it's next to the Interstate so you couldn't hear it anyway.  If I didn't like the people at the course and if it wasn't in decent shape or convenient, I'd play elsewhere.

Ah yes, the-old-lost-ball-that-was-put-in-someone-else's-pocket trick, agree, definitely worthy of free drop.    Been a victim of this myself, especially with my yellow ProV1s.

[StrawberryShortCake]

Just playing casual with friends, I don't see the need to start a tiff with a buddy who obvisouly needs glasses . And I get the pleasure of bugging him the rest of the round for losing a ball in the fairway. To be fair I have lost lots of balls in the fairway, I live in a rain forest enviroment they just plug into the fairway from November till Febuary.

[robertson153]

I play the same course 90% of the time, everyone I play with does as well, and have for 20+ years. We know off the tee where your ball should be. So, if you hit a good shot but can’t find it, free drop. On the other hand, I play with a guy, not often, that’s 100% by the rules every time he plays. If you’re playing with him and lose a ball, you’re taking the penalty no matter what. Playing by the rules is fair for everyone.


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[RickyBobby_PR]

Casual round, not keeping score then who cares what you do. If competing with a friends or a group, keeping score, etc then rules of golf apply. 

[DaveP043]

9 hours ago, robertson153 said:

 Playing by the rules is fair for everyone.

Amen!

 

[Brian A]

22 hours ago, SlowNLow said:

Ah yes, the-old-lost-ball-that-was-put-in-someone-else's-pocket trick, agree, definitely worthy of free drop.    Been a victim of this myself, especially with my yellow ProV1s.

Sadly I’ve legit watched someone do it... the whole 4some yelled and yelled, drove up and he of course denied it. 

[gavinski91]

On 6/2/2020 at 7:30 PM, StrawberryShortCake said:

Just playing casual with friends, I don't see the need to start a tiff with a buddy who obvisouly needs glasses . And I get the pleasure of bugging him the rest of the round for losing a ball in the fairway. To be fair I have lost lots of balls in the fairway, I live in a rain forest enviroment they just plug into the fairway from November till Febuary.

Yep. I've plugged tee shots into the middle of the fairway more than you would expect - one time I only found it because I stepped on it. But yeah, if the whole group agrees that it was a good shot that just disappeared (hiding under a leaf or grass clippings next to the fairway, plugged in the fairway, etc) then you get a free "gallery drop".

[silver & black]

On 6/2/2020 at 9:46 AM, DaveP043 said:

I play with a group of guys who all play pretty much by the rules.  If we know there are issues with leaves, we might decide to play a "leaf rule" before we start.  But if we haven't discussed it before play, we'd call it a lost ball and take the penalty.  This isn't high-stakes gambling, this is small potatoes, and we're all friends, but we've made a conscious choice to follow all of the rules.  With different groups of friends, we'd take a free drop.

This pretty much the way my group does it. We also give a free drop (if agreed on beforehand) for plugged balls when it's really wet and muddy.

[beelzeberto]

As others have said, only a penalty if there is money on the line. I don't care who the person is though, if there is money on the line then it's a penalty. Savage, I know.

[DaveP043]

On 6/5/2020 at 4:29 PM, silver & black said:

This pretty much the way my group does it. We also give a free drop (if agreed on beforehand) for plugged balls when it's really wet and muddy.

The rules specifically allow for relief for an embedded ball in the General Area, no need to agree in advance.  Or do you mean a free drop for a ball that's lost, probably because its embedded?

[silver & black]

9 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

The rules specifically allow for relief for an embedded ball in the General Area, no need to agree in advance.  Or do you mean a free drop for a ball that's lost, probably because its embedded?

Yes, for a ball that can't be found because it's embedded.

[Stuka44]

Just joined but want to put my 2 cents in on this.  This is what I refer to as a "Gallery Ball".  If the ball doesn't drop in a lake,creek, or go clearly sailing into the woods OB, then for the SAKE OF PACE OF PLAY,  Drop another ball and play on without penalty.  This should be stressed by USGA and everyone involved with golf (PLAYING A ROUND FOR FUN AT THEIR LOCAL MUNI), as yet one more thing that can be eliminated to assist in speeding up play.  Unless your playing some club championship, or such thing, PLAY ON.  We've all seen the guy looking for his Top-Flite(for 10 minutes) in the rough that's 8 inches long because its May in the northeast, and its been raining for a whole month and the rough can't be mowed. Because he can't leave that ball behind, or take that stroke which by the way nobody within 50 miles of him cares if he takes a stroke for it or not.  FUN CASUAL ROUNDS NO STROKE EVER!

Oh and by the way I wouldn't be surprised to see some sort or rule change, after watching the pros lose more balls in the rough, since golf started again without fans the last couple months, than were probably lost in the rough the previous 10 years, because of no gallery.

 

Edited August 20, 2020 by stuka44
spelling correction

[MGoBlue100]

8 minutes ago, stuka44 said:

Just joined but want to put my 2 cents in on this.  This is what I refer to as a "Gallery Ball".  If the ball doesn't drop in a lake,creek, or go clearly sailing into the woods OB, then for the SAKE OF PACE OF PLAY,  Drop another ball and play on without penalty.  This should be stressed by USGA and everyone involved with golf (PLAYING A ROUND FOR FUN AT THEIR LOCAL MUNI), as yet one more thing that can be eliminated to assist in speeding up play.  Unless your playing some club championship, or such thing, PLAY ON.  We've all seen the guy looking for his Top-Flite(for 10 minutes) in the rough that's 8 inches long because its May in the northeast, and its been raining for a whole month and the rough can't be mowed. Because he can't leave that ball behind, or take that stroke which by the way nobody within 50 miles of him cares if he takes a stroke for it or not.  FUN CASUAL ROUNDS NO STROKE EVER!

Oh and by the way I wouldn't be surprised to see some sort or rule change, after watching the pros lose more balls in the rough, since golf started again without fans the last couple months, that were probably lost in the rough the previous 10 years, because of no gallery's.

 

I love the term "Gallery Ball/Drop".  I'm going to steal that, if you don't mind...

[Stuka44]

Please  use it prolifically!  Spread it far and wide so it becomes common practice.

Edited August 20, 2020 by stuka44
error

[CarlH]

Just happened to me yesterday.  All 4 of us looked, but nobody could find the ball.  There is a possibility that it hit the cart path and went OB, although I didn't think it was hit that poorly that OB would be an issue.  The hole is such that you cannot see the fairway from the tee box due to the terrain. After looking to no avail, I returned to the tee box and placed a new ball in play....hitting 3, of course.      Since I play competitive golf in tournaments and small money games with friends, anything less than playing by the rules would be a disservice to my score and, more importantly, my handicap.  I try to always play my rounds by the rules of golf if I'm posting a score.

[TBT]

Depends on which group of friends I’m playing with....I’ve got a couple of guys that are very serious golfers, they post all rounds to GHIN so with that group it’s declare lost ball and access the penalty.

The other group plays more for fun and to “hang with the guys” with that group it’s drop a ball where it “should have been” and play on.


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[DaveP043]

3 hours ago, stuka44 said:

Just joined but want to put my 2 cents in on this.  This is what I refer to as a "Gallery Ball".  If the ball doesn't drop in a lake,creek, or go clearly sailing into the woods OB, then for the SAKE OF PACE OF PLAY,  Drop another ball and play on without penalty.  This should be stressed by USGA and everyone involved with golf (PLAYING A ROUND FOR FUN AT THEIR LOCAL MUNI), as yet one more thing that can be eliminated to assist in speeding up play.  Unless your playing some club championship, or such thing, PLAY ON.  We've all seen the guy looking for his Top-Flite(for 10 minutes) in the rough that's 8 inches long because its May in the northeast, and its been raining for a whole month and the rough can't be mowed. Because he can't leave that ball behind, or take that stroke which by the way nobody within 50 miles of him cares if he takes a stroke for it or not.  FUN CASUAL ROUNDS NO STROKE EVER!

Oh and by the way I wouldn't be surprised to see some sort or rule change, after watching the pros lose more balls in the rough, since golf started again without fans the last couple months, than were probably lost in the rough the previous 10 years, because of no gallery.

The USGA has already addressed this, with a Model Local Rule that allows you to drop in the area you think the ball is lost.  No need to go back to the tee, just drop and play on.  And when you count your score up, add two penalty strokes.

And you can even use it for casual rounds where the course has not chosen to use the local rules, its valid for handicap posting purposes.  Of course, if you prefer to take no penalty strokes and post THAT score, feel free.

[Middler]

Pretty rare IMO, but it happened in a group I was in last Monday. Guys drive landed in the fairway and bounced into the first cut of rough left, no trees, bushes or hazards, should have been easily found. There was a groundskeeper mowing the first cut with a gang mower, and the player assumed the mower “ate” the ball. He dropped without penalty, we were all OK with it. Strictly a casual game.

[Stuka44]

  I appreciated the  perspective,  about people being uneasy about the rules being set aside. I understand that the problems of golf, pace of play, cost, etc. are many and multi-faceted.   I think one of the biggest problems, relates to part of the comments.  I understand that some golfers  are members of private clubs, who keep a handicap for club championships, and weeknight golf leagues.  I've never participated in either of these. I would guess 75-90 percent of people playing on weekends at your local course do not fall into either of these categories.  So I'm unsure how or where I'm going to POST MY SCORE  where it is going to affect anyone else on the planet.  Again my scores are primarily for me alone.  Got to be honest have never used NET SCORE for anything in my life.  I have never got done with a round of golf and asked my buddies what their net score based on handicap was.  I also don't think most people out on the course are playing regularly for any kind of money.    So I have to be honest if a guy I'm playing with only wants to count every other stroke he makes, I could care less.  My overall point is this.  Golf needs players to keep courses from closing, and part of keeping players is speeding up the game, and have them play it quickly in whatever way they enjoy it.  People need to not be made to feel like they are being watched by some all powerful unseen golf rules entity, that will revoke their license to play the game if they don't follow the professional rules.  If you want to come out and tee off from 150 yards and play your round from there, doesn't bother me.  Any organized, or sanctioned  event I get it, follow whatever rules are agreed upon.  90 percent of people playing are not playing an organized event.  Golf needs to be more like other sports, where people are encouraged go out and participate in it in some fashion, without being judged, or looked down upon because they don't participate like or by the same rules as the professionals.  People go play tennis, without keeping score, in games and sets.  They just hit the ball back and forth, and go ahead and hit a ball that is out beyond the baseline, they don't stop the rally and call out. Even if playing a match with my daughter if I wan't to hit a ball of hers that was just beyond the baseline, on that occasion has the USTA been harmed in some way.     People shoot basketballs around and play one on one, two on two,  that's not sanctioned by the NBA.  There are hoops that can be lowered to make it easier and more enjoyable for youngsters.  

Golf needs to adapt, or there will soon be even fewer courses, and fewer players to keep those courses open.  The fact that Golf Magazine,  and many others have a section for rules questions is part of the problem with the game.  Anybody not playing in a club championship, or USGA sanctioned event who writes in about what the proper call is on this or that rules violation, and the discussion that likely occurred on the course over it, along with the guy LOOKING FOR HIS BALL IN THE ROUGH, BECAUSE THE RULES SAY HE IS GOING TO HAVE TO TAKE A STROKE, IF HE CAN'T FIND IT, WHEN UP UNTIL THIS YEAR I WOULD GUESS THAT BECAUSE OF FANS LESS THAN 50 BALLS IN THE LAST 10 YEARS  HAVE BEEN LOST BY PROFESSIONALS IN THE ROUGH(ridiculous double standard of a rule that really didn't apply to professionals, because they literally almost can't lose a ball in play on the course) have likely made the game less enjoyable for those delayed behind them.  These and many other things with the game that are stuck in a time warp, are contributing to its slow but steady decline in numbers of players, and courses to play.

            

Edited August 20, 2020 by stuka44
add line

[Stuka44]

Not trying to get on a rant!, and there are exceptions, that can and will be I'm sure, pointed out to me.  But it IS A MAJOR PROBLEM, that golf is about the only sport on the planet that doesn't have youth league's, or leagues for adults,  where rules, the size of the field, the equipment that you use, are adjusted LIBERALLY to accommodate the young and inexperienced player.  T-Ball, shorter bases, Soccer Fields 1/4th the size, shorter hoops, larger tennis balls, lower nets, no offside(soccer until high school), only egregious traveling called, adult softball leagues where there are unlimited pinch runners so nobody dies of a heart attack, short bases, no walks(you got to swing) THE LIST GOES ON AND ON,    And golf, and golfers, unfortunately  promote the rigidity of the ancient rules, to youth and even to other adults, who are trying to learn, like if you don't follow them you won't be allowed into the hereafter.  How about youth leagues where 9 holes are set up at 970 yards(6o yard 3's,  150 yard 4's, and 200 yard 5's), and lets give the youth a little foam pad like a tee they can prop their ball up on at first to help them get it off the ground, balls that are almost like superballs so they get a little more distance regardless of how  well they make contact, and a hole 6" in diameter right in the middle of the green, and we don't play out of sand, and only swings where you make contact count.  Build our youth, and anyone else who wants to try to learn golf, that you can play it in any way you want to HAVE FUN, as long as you do so in a READY, NON DILLY DALLYING, DON'T GRIND OVER THAT 3 FOOTER FOR QUAD BOGEY ON A PAR 3 FASHION, COUNT IT A GIMME FROM ME, AND MOVE ON......   OH ! and by the way if you want to play in a league, or for  a club championship, here is a big ancient rule book that you'll have to brush up on before you participate in that!

[DiscipleofPenick]

Not trying to get on a rant!, and there are exceptions, that can and will be I'm sure, pointed out to me.  But it IS A MAJOR PROBLEM, that golf is about the only sport on the planet that doesn't have youth league's, or leagues for adults,  where rules, the size of the field, the equipment that you use, are adjusted LIBERALLY to accommodate the young and inexperienced player.  T-Ball, shorter bases, Soccer Fields 1/4th the size, shorter hoops, larger tennis balls, lower nets, no offside(soccer until high school), only egregious traveling called, adult softball leagues where there are unlimited pinch runners so nobody dies of a heart attack, short bases, no walks(you got to swing) THE LIST GOES ON AND ON,    And golf, and golfers, unfortunately  promote the rigidity of the ancient rules, to youth and even to other adults, who are trying to learn, like if you don't follow them you won't be allowed into the hereafter.  How about youth leagues where 9 holes are set up at 970 yards(6o yard 3's,  150 yard 4's, and 200 yard 5's), and lets give the youth a little foam pad like a tee they can prop their ball up on at first to help them get it off the ground, balls that are almost like superballs so they get a little more distance regardless of how  well they make contact, and a hole 6" in diameter right in the middle of the green, and we don't play out of sand, and only swings where you make contact count.  Build our youth, and anyone else who wants to try to learn golf, that you can play it in any way you want to HAVE FUN, as long as you do so in a READY, NON DILLY DALLYING, DON'T GRIND OVER THAT 3 FOOTER FOR QUAD BOGEY ON A PAR 3 FASHION, COUNT IT A GIMME FROM ME, AND MOVE ON......   OH ! and by the way if you want to play in a league, or for  a club championship, here is a big ancient rule book that you'll have to brush up on before you participate in that!

Thank you. This 100%

Take Dead Aim

[tony@CIC]

18 hours ago, TBT said:

The other group plays more for fun and to “hang with the guys” with that group it’s drop a ball where it “should have been” and play on.


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The casual group I play with has a 'Fall Leaf Rule'. If you can't find your ball in the rough - generally because of all the leaves on the ground - just drop one and play out with no penalty. In competition this would obviously be different.