Guests Guest Delete Posted June 4, 2020 Guests Share Posted June 4, 2020 Are PGA/LPGA sponsored players playing clubs that are markedly different than what is for sale to consumers as "stock" offerings? If yes, then does that mean golf companies are falsely advertising their equipment, basically lying to consumers? It has been a question I have been contemplating for some time that I wonder if anyone really knows the answer to? My assumption is that tour pros are often playing clubs that are either not using shafts available without a huge upcharge, if available at all, and/or not standard length and lie (and grips too even). Assuming I am right, I propose that any sponsored player must meet two requirements in order to be sponsored: (1) publish the complete specs they are using, and (2) the manufacturer must offer those specs to the consumer (I'm OK if it is for additional cost). My opinion is that this will paint a complete picture of the equipment used by pro golfers and might have another intentional ripple: some pros might not want their specs floating around because they might think there is an advantage they might be giving away. I say that if they are wearing advertising then they have already sold out, so disclose all the details. The real ripple could be, if I'm right, that people will see how different from stock the clubs really are which will encourage more people to see the need to get fit properly. What do you think? Does anyone know any specs that either are nearly stock or are they super customised? Quote Link to comment
dlow206 Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 Yes, the tour pros most often times don't use the stock shafts and have many adjustments done to their equipment, like precise swingweighting with hot melt, etc. However, I don't think publishing these specs to the general public would have any benefit. The guy or gal that buys equipment specifically because a pro is using that same equipment would probably hit it worse with the pro's spec than with the stock spec. For example, me trying to use DJ's SIM Max with my swingspeed (low 100s) would likely have a much worse result than if I have an off the shelf SIm Max with the stock stiff shaft. juspoole and krusher74 2 Quote Follow my golf journey to break into the 80s Tester for the Titleist TSi Driver Spring 2020 MGS Tester for the Fujikura Motore X Shaft Updated 07/15/2022 Driver: Rogue St Max LS - Autoflex Fairway Woods: Rogue Max St 3HL and 7 Wood Irons: JPX 921 Hot Metal 5 to AW - Aerotech Steelfiber i95 Stiff parallel tip Wedges: Glide 4.0 54 and 58 Putter: PLD Custom Kushin 4 Link to comment
THEZIPR23 Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 Are PGA/LPGA sponsored players playing clubs that are markedly different than what is for sale to consumers as "stock" offerings? Yes I bet every single one of them. If yes, then does that mean golf companies are falsely advertising their equipment, basically lying to consumers? Nope, I haven't seen any company say our tour pros are playing "stock Offerings" It has been a question I have been contemplating for some time that I wonder if anyone really knows the answer to? Yes My assumption is that tour pros are often playing clubs that are either not using shafts available without a huge upcharge, if available at all, and/or not standard length and lie (and grips too even). Of course but this doesn't mean they are not available to the public. Assuming I am right, I propose that any sponsored player must meet two requirements in order to be sponsored: (1) publish the complete specs they are using, and (2) the manufacturer must offer those specs to the consumer (I'm OK if it is for additional cost). You can find many specs and WITB of tour pros. My opinion is that this will paint a complete picture of the equipment used by pro golfers and might have another intentional ripple: some pros might not want their specs floating around because they might think there is an advantage they might be giving away. I say that if they are wearing advertising then they have already sold out, so disclose all the details. The real ripple could be, if I'm right, that people will see how different from stock the clubs really are which will encourage more people to see the need to get fit properly. What do you think? Does anyone know any specs that either are nearly stock or are they super customised? Everyone who has been fitted has super customized specs to them. Now are tolerances different, without a doubt. Balls could be questioned but it's just a tweak that is offered to players if it fits them better. They are not playing "hot" balls or anything. Tom the Golf Nut and Kanoito 2 Quote Stealth 2+ 9 (Diamana PD 60 S 45") Stealth 2+ 15 (Diamana PD 70 S 43") G425 19 (Raijin 2.0 85x) G425 22 (Raijin 2.0 85x) ZX7 5-9 (KBS C Taper S) Vokey SM9 45 10 F (KBS 610) Vokey SM9 49 08 F (KBS 610) Vokey SM9 55 08 M (KBS 610) Vokey SM9 59 04 T (KBS 610) Spider GT Splitback 34" ProV1 #23 Twitter @THEZIPR23 "One thing Golf has taught me, is that my muscles have no memory." Link to comment
null Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 15 minutes ago, TimoTe said: Are PGA/LPGA sponsored players playing clubs that are markedly different than what is for sale to consumers as "stock" offerings? If yes, then does that mean golf companies are falsely advertising their equipment, basically lying to consumers? It has been a question I have been contemplating for some time that I wonder if anyone really knows the answer to? My assumption is that tour pros are often playing clubs that are either not using shafts available without a huge upcharge, if available at all, and/or not standard length and lie (and grips too even). Assuming I am right, I propose that any sponsored player must meet two requirements in order to be sponsored: (1) publish the complete specs they are using, and (2) the manufacturer must offer those specs to the consumer (I'm OK if it is for additional cost). My opinion is that this will paint a complete picture of the equipment used by pro golfers and might have another intentional ripple: some pros might not want their specs floating around because they might think there is an advantage they might be giving away. I say that if they are wearing advertising then they have already sold out, so disclose all the details. The real ripple could be, if I'm right, that people will see how different from stock the clubs really are which will encourage more people to see the need to get fit properly. What do you think? Does anyone know any specs that either are nearly stock or are they super customised? 99% are similar to what we're can buy. However, tour heads are more precise (they measure exact loft, lie and face angle to the tenth of a degree for driver heads and woods. Iron and wedge heads are basically off the shelf except for the custom grinds some players have done Edit: just saw the part about stock referring to shafts. Every tour pro is fit so I doubt any of them are playing the stocks shaft offering and if they are, its because they were fit into it. Heck, I'm nowhere near a tour pro and the only club in my bag with a 'stock' shaft is my putter. It doesn't mean that stock offerings are bad - it just means they didn't fit me RickyBobby_PR and silver & black 2 Quote Link to comment
russtopherb Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 I don’t have the game a pro has so what they’re playing is irrelevant to me. Like Jlukes said, much of what they’re playing is just like what we can buy however it’s measured to be exact so it conforms and there’s a lot of higher end shafts involved. At the end of the day, I only care about what I can hit well, not someone on tour. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk THEZIPR23 1 Quote In my carry bag: ST-X 10.5* Kai'li Blue R Flex ST-Z 15* Kai/li Blue R Flex ST-Z 4h Linq Blue R Flex Launcher 5h Launcher CBX 6i-PW CBX 54* & 58* Huntington Beach #10 e12 Contact CURRENTLY TESTING - Mizuno Long Game Link to comment
ZenGolfer Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 I dont know that they are misrepresenting but the clubs that the tours play often arent something that you can buy off the rack but honestly, the clubs that the pros play probably wouldnt be right for most weekend hackers. I would say though that the pros gets the best of the best. A lot of the OEMs often test a bunch of drivers and save the ones that perform the best for their tour pros. Callaway got busted last year for having drivers that were nonconforming and it was later found that the clubs were just barely conforming when they were new and that over the course of play they wore to the point of no longer being conforming. Of course, that depends which story you believe but Im sure theyre all guility of this.. Quote "I suppose its better to be a master of 7 than to be vaguely familiar with 14." - Chick Evans Whats in my Sun Mountain 2.5+ stand bag? Woods: Tommy Armour Atomic 10.5* Hybrid: Mizuno MP Fli-Hi 3H Irons: Mizuno T-Zoid True 5, 7 and 9-irons Wedge: Mizuno S18 54* and Top Flite chipper Putter: Mizuno Bettinardi A-02 Ball: Maxfli Tour X Link to comment
RickyBobby_PR Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 1 hour ago, jlukes said: 99% are similar to what we're can buy. However, tour heads are more precise (they measure exact loft, lie and face angle to the tenth of a degree for driver heads and woods. Iron and wedge heads are basically off the shelf except for the custom grinds some players have done Edit: just saw the part about stock referring to shafts. Every tour pro is fit so I doubt any of them are playing the stocks shaft offering and if they are, its because they were fit into it. Heck, I'm nowhere near a tour pro and the only club in my bag with a 'stock' shaft is my putter. It doesn't mean that stock offerings are bad - it just means they didn't fit me Nailed and in some cases a brand might make a club loft that is only available on tour like TM has/had with a 8 or 8.5* driver head because they have 1 or two on staff that prefer the size, loft and or launch window it gives. Or like Callaway with the mavrik drivers for certain your players or ball companies that have balls with slightly different characteristics that fit a handful of players and it doesn’t make financial sense to mass produce for retail downlowkey 1 Quote Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4 Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120 Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60 Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1 Ball: Titleist Prov1 Link to comment
Firebird Posted June 4, 2020 Share Posted June 4, 2020 There are a number of companies that offer the same level of fitting that Pro's receive - the kicker is cost to do this. I do not see any issue with the way products are marketed as in 90% of cases it would make very little difference to the average golfers game as the inconsistency is the person holding the club, not the equipment. Secondly as a amateur we buy a set of clubs if we are lucky every 5-15 years where most pro's change there clubs on a regular basis, some use new wedges every tournament. The one thing that I think should be address is the quality of the golf balls. The only ball that you can buy that is used by a Pro in competition is the Bridgestone Tiger Woods Ball. All others get provided balls that have been checked to ensure they are almost identical. Quote Callaway Epic Flash 9 Degree Callaway Epic Flash 3 wood 15 Degree Callaway Apex 21 Hybrid 19 Degree Callaway Steelhead Pro 4-AW Irons Cleveland 54 Degree Wedge Steel Shaft Recoil Graphite Shafts in all Callaway Cobra Vintage Series Stingray 40 Preferred ball - Seed 001 Link to comment
Tom the Golf Nut Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 It would be like you trying to wear someone else's glasses. A pro's set is custom fit to him / her. If you have ever been in a manufacturers tour van it is quite unbelievable. They have every spec for every club their players are hitting. Someone damages a club they can make a replacement in few minutes so it is available for the next round. PMookie 1 Quote Driver, TSi 1 S Flex 3 wood, Aerojet Max UST Helium Nanocore R Flex 5 wood, Aerojet Max UST Helium Nanocore R Flex 7 Wood, Aerojet Max UST Helium Nanocore R Flex 5 Hybrid King Tec MMT R Flex Irons, Tour UST Recoil 95 R Flex (6 - Gap) Wedges, Snakebite KBS Hi- Rev2.0 54* & 60* Agera 35" Ultralight 14-way Cart Bag Link to comment
Guests Guest Delete Posted June 5, 2020 Guests Share Posted June 5, 2020 8 hours ago, jlukes said: 99% are similar to what we're can buy. However, tour heads are more precise (they measure exact loft, lie and face angle to the tenth of a degree for driver heads and woods. Iron and wedge heads are basically off the shelf except for the custom grinds some players have done Edit: just saw the part about stock referring to shafts. Every tour pro is fit so I doubt any of them are playing the stocks shaft offering and if they are, its because they were fit into it. Heck, I'm nowhere near a tour pro and the only club in my bag with a 'stock' shaft is my putter. It doesn't mean that stock offerings are bad - it just means they didn't fit me Great response. I guess I forgot to mention/question custom specs like loft (strong/weak) and even maybe a different sole grind. I just have to think that without publishing the specs the pros play there could be a bait and switch. Clubs the big box stores have to offer also have to fit the largest segments of the target golfing population based on the head design category (players/game improvement etc). If specs were published then it would reveal what manufacturer has clubs being played closest to standard specs. This would seem to equate to the company also having more integrity and better engineering. Conversely, a result of the most altered from stock spec would reveal the poorest engineering and a less honest company. Obviously, only knowing the specs would we even be able to really figure all this out for sure. Quote Link to comment
null Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 4 hours ago, TimoTe said: Great response. I guess I forgot to mention/question custom specs like loft (strong/weak) and even maybe a different sole grind. I just have to think that without publishing the specs the pros play there could be a bait and switch. Clubs the big box stores have to offer also have to fit the largest segments of the target golfing population based on the head design category (players/game improvement etc). If specs were published then it would reveal what manufacturer has clubs being played closest to standard specs. This would seem to equate to the company also having more integrity and better engineering. Conversely, a result of the most altered from stock spec would reveal the poorest engineering and a less honest company. Obviously, only knowing the specs would we even be able to really figure all this out for sure. More precisely measured specs do not equate to bait and switch at all. These heads and shafts are coming off the same manufacturing lines that the products consumers buy come off. As mentioned above, some company have tour only balls, which can make things a little shady, but golf club heads and shafts arent really an issue RickyBobby_PR and russtopherb 2 Quote Link to comment
Kanoito Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 4 hours ago, TimoTe said: Great response. I guess I forgot to mention/question custom specs like loft (strong/weak) and even maybe a different sole grind. I just have to think that without publishing the specs the pros play there could be a bait and switch. Clubs the big box stores have to offer also have to fit the largest segments of the target golfing population based on the head design category (players/game improvement etc). If specs were published then it would reveal what manufacturer has clubs being played closest to standard specs. This would seem to equate to the company also having more integrity and better engineering. Conversely, a result of the most altered from stock spec would reveal the poorest engineering and a less honest company. Obviously, only knowing the specs would we even be able to really figure all this out for sure. The thing is there is no such thing as standard. TM's standard lie angle is different than Mizuno, same for length. Even if they published all the tour specs and offered them at an upcharge, what good would it do for the average golfer? As an example: Tiger's blades. You can get the same specs if you want, but who can actually play them? I honestly don't see what this has to do with being less honest or poor engineering. Just like cars, companies are selling you their base model starting at $XX.XXX. Now if you want the sunroof, that's gonna cost you. If you want the 5.0L V8, that's gonna cost you, too. Oh, you want AT? That's gonna be an upcharge, etc... russtopherb, RickyBobby_PR, null and 1 other 4 Quote SpeedZone 9* w/ Aldila Rogue Silver 60 S X2 Hot 3 Deep 14.5* w/ Aldila Tour Green 75 S JetSpeed 5W 19* w/ Matrix Velox T 69 S OR Super LS 3H 19* w/ Kuro Kage Black 80 S JPX919 Forged 4-PW w/ Modus3 105 S Vokey SM7 50/08F, 54/14F & 58/08M w/ Modus3 115 Wedge ER1 34" w/ SuperStroke Fatso 2.0 Pro / H2NO Lite Cart Bag / 3.0 / NX7 Pro LRF My reviews: MLA Putter // Titleist SM7 // PING i500 // PuttOUT Link to comment
ED13 Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 For a driver I doubt the stated loft is exactly accurate for most of the heads. Got fit for a Wishon driver years ago with a loft designation of nine degrees. Head had been measured at Wishon and was actually just over ten when purchased. Not much different than when you buy clothes, vanity sizing is not just in women’s clothing. My actual waist size is just over 35” but I wear 34” and in some models a 32”. Clothing companies are not being deceitful they just size to what their customer base expects. It is our job to try them on and make sure it works for us just like golf equipment. Tom the Golf Nut 1 Quote Driver - Ping G410 Woods - Callaway Rogue 5 wood Hybrid - Titleist TS2 21 degree Irons - Taylormade P790 5-PW Wedges - Taylormade MG3 50, 54, 58, SM9 60 Putter - Mizuno Black Carbon BC3 Link to comment
cnosil Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 I agree with what is being said in the thread. Depending on the players visibility there are some that may be under contract with company A but play clubs from company B. This could be because company A hasn’t developed a club that the player likes or they haven’t or won’t make the club available for retail. We also know that generally players aren’t under contract for all 14 clubs so what is on the hat,Bag, or headcover may not fully represent what is in the bag. At the end of the day, I don’t care what specs a player has or if I can get those clubs or shafts since they don’t impact my game. The only thing about a pros WITB that interests me is potential equipment that may hit the market. russtopherb and PMookie 2 Quote Driver: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven Fairway: TS3 15* w/Project X Hzardous Smoke Hybrids: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype 915H 24* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype Irons: TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite Wedge: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite Putter: TM-180 Testing: Backups: Milled Collection RSX 2, mFGP2, Futura 5W Member: MGS Hitsquad since 2017 Link to comment
RickyBobby_PR Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 6 hours ago, TimoTe said: Great response. I guess I forgot to mention/question custom specs like loft (strong/weak) and even maybe a different sole grind. I just have to think that without publishing the specs the pros play there could be a bait and switch. Clubs the big box stores have to offer also have to fit the largest segments of the target golfing population based on the head design category (players/game improvement etc). If specs were published then it would reveal what manufacturer has clubs being played closest to standard specs. This would seem to equate to the company also having more integrity and better engineering. Conversely, a result of the most altered from stock spec would reveal the poorest engineering and a less honest company. Obviously, only knowing the specs would we even be able to really figure all this out for sure. If a player has his irons 2* flat, 1* strong and 1/2” short. That’s not standard spec for the brand he is with but it’s nots something that can’t be done for th e avgs consumer either, that’s what fittings are for. Tour players have their woods hot melted for various reasons, that’s not standard spec but it’s something that an amateur can do themselves or pay someone to do. Quote Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4 Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120 Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60 Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1 Ball: Titleist Prov1 Link to comment
dlow206 Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 2 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said: If a player has his irons 2* flat, 1* strong and 1/2” short. That’s not standard spec for the brand he is with but it’s nots something that can’t be done for th e avgs consumer either, that’s what fittings are for. Tour players have their woods hot melted for various reasons, that’s not standard spec but it’s something that an amateur can do themselves or pay someone to do. Agree. As an amateur you can have almost anything done to your clubs that the pros have. I have hot melt in my SIM Max done by the same guy that worked on Rory's clubs and other former Nike players... But I got this done because I cut down my driver and desired to keep the swingweight about the same. Quote Follow my golf journey to break into the 80s Tester for the Titleist TSi Driver Spring 2020 MGS Tester for the Fujikura Motore X Shaft Updated 07/15/2022 Driver: Rogue St Max LS - Autoflex Fairway Woods: Rogue Max St 3HL and 7 Wood Irons: JPX 921 Hot Metal 5 to AW - Aerotech Steelfiber i95 Stiff parallel tip Wedges: Glide 4.0 54 and 58 Putter: PLD Custom Kushin 4 Link to comment
juspoole Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 (edited) I think naïve 17 year old me wanted to play the same clubs as the pros as I thought they were better in some ways. Somewhat smarter and better looking 33 year old me, now knows that yes they may have a bit superior equipment because of more attention to detail and less mass production, BUT I know that my game needs specific adjustments for my swing and tendencies and the pros are on such a different level than us mortals that my game would likely suffer. Edited June 5, 2020 by juspoole cnosil 1 Quote Driver: Mavrik Sub Zero 9* (Set to 10) Ventus Blue 6X 2 Hybrid: TSI3 Hybrid Tensei Blue 80 X (17.25*) 3 Hybrid 818 H2 Hybrid Hzrdus RDX Black 6.5 (20.5*) 4 Iron - T200 4 Iron Graphite Design Tour AD IZ X Hybrid Shaft Irons 5-PW: T100-S 5 - GW KBS Tour 130 X Gap/Sand Wedge: Vokey SM6 49* SM8 54* Lob Wedge: Jaws 5 Wedge 58* DG Tour Issue Stiff Putter: Phantom 5.5 34" Pro Platinum Newport 2 35" Taylormade Tour Black Spider 34" Link to comment
RickyBobby_PR Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 3 minutes ago, juspoole said: I think naïve 17 year old me wanted to play the same clubs as the pros as I thought they were better in some ways. Somewhat smarter and better looking 33 year old me, now knows that yes they may have a bit superior equipment because of more attention to detail and less mass production, BUT I know that my game needs specific adjustments for my game and the pros are on such a different level than us mortals that my game would likely suffer. Very few pieces of pro equipment comes from a different manufacturing process or line than the retail stuff. The tolerances on specs are tighter on what makes it to the tour trucks but even those aren’t spot on. juspoole 1 Quote Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4 Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120 Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60 Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1 Ball: Titleist Prov1 Link to comment
dlow206 Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 18 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said: Very few pieces of pro equipment comes from a different manufacturing process or line than the retail stuff. The tolerances on specs are tighter on what makes it to the tour trucks but even those aren’t spot on. And even with retail heads, there are some places where you can pick a retail head with specific spec. Like they will have measured each head and you can pick from the bunch. If you want 10.2 degrees on your driver head you can pick the one that measures closest to 10.2. Quote Follow my golf journey to break into the 80s Tester for the Titleist TSi Driver Spring 2020 MGS Tester for the Fujikura Motore X Shaft Updated 07/15/2022 Driver: Rogue St Max LS - Autoflex Fairway Woods: Rogue Max St 3HL and 7 Wood Irons: JPX 921 Hot Metal 5 to AW - Aerotech Steelfiber i95 Stiff parallel tip Wedges: Glide 4.0 54 and 58 Putter: PLD Custom Kushin 4 Link to comment
gavinski91 Posted June 5, 2020 Share Posted June 5, 2020 2 hours ago, dlow206 said: And even with retail heads, there are some places where you can pick a retail head with specific spec. Like they will have measured each head and you can pick from the bunch. If you want 10.2 degrees on your driver head you can pick the one that measures closest to 10.2. This is common in any pro sport, not specific to golf. There will always be some manufacturing variances, and most of the time an amateur would never even notice, but a pro can feel the difference. In downhill ski racing for example, pros (or their equipment managers) will get access to basically the full stock of off-the-line equipment. Due to the ski construction process (fiberglass/carbon/wood/metal laminates) every ski is different - the differences are probably less than 1%, but when you're racing with margins of 100ths of a second that matters. The pros will hand inspect and flex text thousands of skis, and then take for themselves the 20 or so that they like best to get them through the season. I wouldn't be surprised if there are some pros who are testing multiples of the exact same shaft to find one that feels best, because due to the manufacturing process the flex or balance point might be 0.5 cm further up or down the shaft then what is advertised. Quote Driver - Radspeed XB, Aldila Rogue Silver 70-S 3 Wood - Radspeed, Aldila Rogue Silver 70-S 5 Wood - Radspeed, Fujikura Motore X F3 6-S 7 Wood - 0341x Gen 4, Mitsubishi Tensei AV Raw Blue 75-S Irons - Pro 225 4-5, 223 6-PW, KBS $-Taper 120 Wedges - King Cobra Snakebite 52° & 58°, KBS Hi-Rev 2.0 S Putter - Stroke Lab Black Ten 35" Ball - Chrome Soft X LS Powered by 2020 ExPutt Official Review | 2021 Cobra Connect Five Participant | 2023 SuperSpeed Official Review Link to comment
Chizzle Posted June 6, 2020 Share Posted June 6, 2020 From what I can remember, the biggest difference i heard between pros and amateurs back in the late 90s and 2000's was the shaft pros were using. They were using prototype this and prototype that, different weighted shafts, shafts with different flex points, etc. I dont remember there being that many shaft options outside of stock shafts back then. Those fitting options are more available to consumers but companies still have special product lines or items just for pros. That's probably simply because we are either not good enough to need them, or to be able to use them as intended, or even be able to feel or notice the difference. Look no further than golf balls to know companies have different products for pros. I dont have an issue with companies having different specs for tour pros because incrementally the equipment has gotten better over time for amateurs and it doesnt make sense for them to cater to the individual. They cater to blocks of consumers. I think that's why you see the "tour" model, a more forgiving model, and a draw bias model for drivers for drivers as an example. Lastly with the fitting world coming to amatuers, if properly fitted, aren't we getting what the pros are getting in essence? Something that is specific to each individual golfer? Having clubs bent to a certain degree, lie angle adjustments, this shaft, and that shaft. The paradigm shift from "playing" what the pros play to playing what's best for you is huge. Quote Link to comment
Guests Guest Delete Posted June 7, 2020 Guests Share Posted June 7, 2020 9 hours ago, Chizzle said: From what I can remember, the biggest difference i heard between pros and amateurs back in the late 90s and 2000's was the shaft pros were using. They were using prototype this and prototype that, different weighted shafts, shafts with different flex points, etc. I dont remember there being that many shaft options outside of stock shafts back then. Those fitting options are more available to consumers but companies still have special product lines or items just for pros. That's probably simply because we are either not good enough to need them, or to be able to use them as intended, or even be able to feel or notice the difference. Look no further than golf balls to know companies have different products for pros. I dont have an issue with companies having different specs for tour pros because incrementally the equipment has gotten better over time for amateurs and it doesnt make sense for them to cater to the individual. They cater to blocks of consumers. I think that's why you see the "tour" model, a more forgiving model, and a draw bias model for drivers for drivers as an example. Lastly with the fitting world coming to amatuers, if properly fitted, aren't we getting what the pros are getting in essence? Something that is specific to each individual golfer? Having clubs bent to a certain degree, lie angle adjustments, this shaft, and that shaft. The paradigm shift from "playing" what the pros play to playing what's best for you is huge. I agree if you get custom fit them that is pretty much the only way to get the most out of clubs. Additionally, I agree the balls being prototype balls in tour is a big part of the misleading I am upset about. When I first heard of Tiger Wood's clubs being custom ground to include a pre-worn leading edge is when I really started wondering about how much clubs are modified for tour pros? Then MGS started talking "Made For" shafts falling short of the true upgrade shafts, doesn't it all start to sound like a bait and switch? There was a time when PGA players who were endorsed would not be shown on television. Boy how times have changed. Quote Link to comment
RickyBobby_PR Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 13 minutes ago, TimoTe said: I agree if you get custom fit them that is pretty much the only way to get the most out of clubs. Additionally, I agree the balls being prototype balls in tour is a big part of the misleading I am upset about. When I first heard of Tiger Wood's clubs being custom ground to include a pre-worn leading edge is when I really started wondering about how much clubs are modified for tour pros? Then MGS started talking "Made For" shafts falling short of the true upgrade shafts, doesn't it all start to sound like a bait and switch? There was a time when PGA players who were endorsed would not be shown on television. Boy how times have changed. Proto balls on tour are what leads to future releases of retail balls and the number who play them are minimal. Titleist has proto balls that became the 2017 prov lineup and 85% of their staff play the retail ball. Companies test balls then once they are ready for tour validation they go thru the Usga/r&a process for approval. Based on tour feedback the brands then make the final changes to a ball if there are any and they come out to retail if they may stay a tour only ball because the number of golfers that would benefit isn’t worth the cost to produce them. But if you are really that hung up on proto balls titleist is still selling the exp-01 ball. custom grinds can be had by anyone if you have a grinder, the tour van staff will do. There’s nothing shady going on by companies and what they have on tour compared to what they have at retail. edit: go to taylormades YouTube and social media and you can see how a tour van works and see the players testing clubs out for the first time tony@CIC and Kanoito 2 Quote Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4 Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120 Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60 Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1 Ball: Titleist Prov1 Link to comment
Chizzle Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 20 minutes ago, TimoTe said: I agree if you get custom fit them that is pretty much the only way to get the most out of clubs. Additionally, I agree the balls being prototype balls in tour is a big part of the misleading I am upset about. When I first heard of Tiger Wood's clubs being custom ground to include a pre-worn leading edge is when I really started wondering about how much clubs are modified for tour pros? Then MGS started talking "Made For" shafts falling short of the true upgrade shafts, doesn't it all start to sound like a bait and switch? There was a time when PGA players who were endorsed would not be shown on television. Boy how times have changed. Unfortunately I think something that has to be factored into the equation is that it doesnt make sense for OEM to make multiple sku's for a single product. I think I heard there are at least 24 million golfers give or take? That's creating competition for yourself in a super competitive market where not too many people purchase clubs every year. They make exceptions to tour players that are under contract. As far as a ball goes, take titleist for example. i dont think we are good enough to 1)feel the difference between a AVX,a ball in between AVX and proV1, ProV1, a ball inbetween ProV1 and ProV1x, and proV1x 2) our swing, strike, and overall game isn't consistent enough to know the difference or see gains. Quick question. If there were 2 balls only marked with number #1 and #2, one being a proV1 and the other being a prov1x, on a 60 yard shot, how many amateur golfers would be able to tell the difference? I'm pretty sure I wont. The guys on TV hit soo many more balls than we do. Although I understand the frustration or angst, it's a none issue to me. It will be an issue if I'm playing for millions of dollars, but then again if I were, I'd probably get a chance to use special tour equipment. Quote Link to comment
RickyBobby_PR Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 12 hours ago, Chizzle said: Unfortunately I think something that has to be factored into the equation is that it doesnt make sense for OEM to make multiple sku's for a single product. I think I heard there are at least 24 million golfers give or take? That's creating competition for yourself in a super competitive market where not too many people purchase clubs every year. They make exceptions to tour players that are under contract. As far as a ball goes, take titleist for example. i dont think we are good enough to 1)feel the difference between a AVX,a ball in between AVX and proV1, ProV1, a ball inbetween ProV1 and ProV1x, and proV1x 2) our swing, strike, and overall game isn't consistent enough to know the difference or see gains. Quick question. If there were 2 balls only marked with number #1 and #2, one being a proV1 and the other being a prov1x, on a 60 yard shot, how many amateur golfers would be able to tell the difference? I'm pretty sure I wont. The guys on TV hit soo many more balls than we do. Although I understand the frustration or angst, it's a none issue to me. It will be an issue if I'm playing for millions of dollars, but then again if I were, I'd probably get a chance to use special tour equipment. Exactly to the bolder part. Look at the number of mavrik driver heads on the confirming list. It oils make no sense for Callaway to release each one to sell a handful at most of some of them. There’s a few lefty versions and the percentage of golfers that are lefty is small and those that would benefit from a Phil Mickelson design is even smaller segment of that small segment tony@CIC 1 Quote Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4 Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120 Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60 Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1 Ball: Titleist Prov1 Link to comment
beelzeberto Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 The only thing misleading about club companies claims is the every new driver the release gives you 10-15 yards more. Other than that, nah. tony@CIC 1 Quote Sim / M2 / MG Z785 Brandon Matthews No2 - Not Made for the Tour "buy the ticket, take the ride..." Link to comment
chisag Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 ... Tour Pro's have no Pixie Dust sprinkled on their clubs to make them superior to what is offered retail off the rack. OEMs do a ton of research, testing and changing shaft specs on "made for" shafts, not to find a cheap way to make them, but to fit the average golfer. Better players with repeatable swings will most likely upgrade shafts anyway I was told by a Cobra VP, so we need to offer a shaft that the average guy hits at the range and likes. Too stiff a tip, too little torque or to stiff an over all profile will produce poor results. The average player hitting a new driver has zero knowledge about shafts and head combos. They just pick up the new TM/Cally/Cobra and hit it. If it is too strong a shaft and they hit it low and left they don't think "Hmmm, maybe I need a little more torque and a softer tip" instead they think "this driver sucks". So it is imperative for OEMs to offer a club head and shaft combo that fit the widest range of players. ... Instead of bait and switch, most OEMs do the opposite, designing clubs for the average golfer to meet their swing needs. Even as a + index I am playing a stock Tensei Orange shaft instead of the Tensei Pro Orange that many of the guys on tour play. Too stiff tipped and too strong an overall profile for a 100 mph swinger but excellent for 115+ strong hitting guys on tour. ... The last part of this conspiracy theory is if any Am is serious about their game, they get fit. No Tour Player tells their OEM they need a new driver and say "just grab one from the trailer with stock specs". They get fit for their swing. Am's have the same option of getting shaft length, exact head weight/loft or add hot melt if needed by going to a reputable fitter and fine tuning their selection. cnosil and aerospace_ray 2 Quote Driver: Qi10 10.5* ... Ventus Red Velocore 5R Fairway: Aerojet 3/5 ... Kai'li Blue 60R Hybrids: 430 Hybrid 22*... Steelfiber 780Hy DHy #4 ... Diamana LTD 65r Irons: '23 T200 5-Pw ... Steelfiber i95r Wedges: Vokey 50*/54*/58* ... Steelfiber i95r Putter: Sport-60 33" Ball: Maxfli Maxfli Tour Link to comment
RickyBobby_PR Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 3 hours ago, beelzeberto said: The only thing misleading about club companies claims is the every new driver the release gives you 10-15 yards more. Other than that, nah. Except most don’t say that and if they do they list over which models and how it was tested. beelzeberto 1 Quote Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4 Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120 Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60 Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1 Ball: Titleist Prov1 Link to comment
bens197 Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 You’re more likely to run into a juiced launch monitor than a misrepresented club. beelzeberto, chisag, tony@CIC and 1 other 4 Quote Titleist TSi3 Fujikura Speeder NX Blue 60X TaylorMade SIM2 3 wood Fujilkura Ventus Blue 7-X Titleist U505 2 Tensei 1K Black 85 X Titleist T100 4-P Nippon Modus 3 120X PING S159 50-S 55-H 59-T DG X100 Vokey SM8 50, SM9 54 & 60 Nippon Modus 3 120s L.A.B. MEZZ Max Broom Accra 47" 79.5* Srixon Z-Star XV Currently testing the 2024 PING S159 wedges… https://forum.mygolfspy.com/topic/63483-testers-announced-ping-s159-wedges/ Was testing, still loving the 2023 Titleist T100 Irons 4-P https://forum.mygolfspy.com/topic/60456-titleist-t-series-irons-2023-forum-review/ Link to comment
beelzeberto Posted June 7, 2020 Share Posted June 7, 2020 3 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said: Except most don’t say that and if they do they list over which models and how it was tested. Yeah but how many golfers actually read the rest of that? They see the 10-15 in large print and don't bother reading the rest of the smaller print. Quote Sim / M2 / MG Z785 Brandon Matthews No2 - Not Made for the Tour "buy the ticket, take the ride..." Link to comment
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