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Thoughts on Shot Shaping?

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On 6/9/2020 at 8:07 PM, THEZIPR23 said:

I’m sure he has said something similar about this on here but I would love to hear @edteergolf thoughts on this. 

Not picking on you, I just think that if you are serious about getting better this thinking is completely backwards. 

This is to everyone who has commented on this topic!!

I'm not sure where to begin.  This isn't an easy topic because it challenges everything that we believe is true about the game.  For the moment, I want to share some data with you and premise it by saying that it doesn't matter than the player is on tour and makes a lot of money.  Shots gained, in its truest form, compares how you played to everyone else in the field.  Think of it as similar players.  So if the stat/skill is true for a bunch of tour players the stat/skill will be true for a bunch of 18 handicap players.  Bryson DeChambeau has gained two strokes or more on the field 5 of the last 8 rounds.  Historically gaining two shot on the field happens about 1% of the time.  In those rounds he hit 9/14, 9/14, 9/14, 8/14 & 7/14 fairways per round.  I will remind you that he gained two shots on the field by not hitting all the fairways.  

I'm going to make everyone a free no-strings attached offer!  I've been contemplating entering online coaching market.  I know everyone provides swing instruction, but I want to provide more than just swing work.  I want to provide holistic training for golfers interested in understanding the game, what to train, how to train, how to prepare to play, and how to play.  I don't care if you are trying to win a soda, club championship, us open, or break 100.  To do it well, I need to practice presenting online via zoom or similar.  I am inviting everyone on this thread  to join me for a free webinar on strategy that will cover tee shots, approach shots, Scott Fawcett's DECADE, & any other questions you have about strategy.  You will not hear anything about my program, I will not make a sales offer to you, or answer any questions concerning my online coaching endeavor.

I simply want to share information that I have compiled as a coach that has helped my private students and my women's college team.  If you are interested, reply to this post with your email address.  I will use the address for the Zoom invitation only and you will never receive an email from me for any other purpose.  This offer is not about sales in any way!!

I'm thinking Sunday evening at 8:00 pm eastern time.  

 

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41 minutes ago, edteergolf said:

I simply want to share information that I have compiled as a coach that has helped my private students and my women's college team.  If you are interested, reply to this post with your email address.  I will use the address for the Zoom invitation only and you will never receive an email from me for any other purpose.  This offer is not about sales in any way!!

I'm thinking Sunday evening at 8:00 pm eastern time.  

 

That is a very generous offer Ed,  please add me to your list for Sunday.  I am pretty sure you already have my email.  


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52 minutes ago, edteergolf said:

This is to everyone who has commented on this topic!!

I'm not sure where to begin.  This isn't an easy topic because it challenges everything that we believe is true about the game.  For the moment, I want to share some data with you and premise it by saying that it doesn't matter than the player is on tour and makes a lot of money.  Shots gained, in its truest form, compares how you played to everyone else in the field.  Think of it as similar players.  So if the stat/skill is true for a bunch of tour players the stat/skill will be true for a bunch of 18 handicap players.  Bryson DeChambeau has gained two strokes or more on the field 5 of the last 8 rounds.  Historically gaining two shot on the field happens about 1% of the time.  In those rounds he hit 9/14, 9/14, 9/14, 8/14 & 7/14 fairways per round.  I will remind you that he gained two shots on the field by not hitting all the fairways.  

I'm going to make everyone a free no-strings attached offer!  I've been contemplating entering online coaching market.  I know everyone provides swing instruction, but I want to provide more than just swing work.  I want to provide holistic training for golfers interested in understanding the game, what to train, how to train, how to prepare to play, and how to play.  I don't care if you are trying to win a soda, club championship, us open, or break 100.  To do it well, I need to practice presenting online via zoom or similar.  I am inviting everyone on this thread  to join me for a free webinar on strategy that will cover tee shots, approach shots, Scott Fawcett's DECADE, & any other questions you have about strategy.  You will not hear anything about my program, I will not make a sales offer to you, or answer any questions concerning my online coaching endeavor.

I simply want to share information that I have compiled as a coach that has helped my private students and my women's college team.  If you are interested, reply to this post with your email address.  I will use the address for the Zoom invitation only and you will never receive an email from me for any other purpose.  This offer is not about sales in any way!!

I'm thinking Sunday evening at 8:00 pm eastern time.  

 

This is a incredible. Thanks Ed. 

Thezipr@gmail.com

I have a 120 Pacific tee time on Sunday so it will be close to me getting there on time but will join as soon as I can. 

 

Thanks again. 


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Sounds like a great opportunity. I have sent you a message with my email.

This is to everyone who has commented on this topic!!
I'm not sure where to begin.  This isn't an easy topic because it challenges everything that we believe is true about the game.  For the moment, I want to share some data with you and premise it by saying that it doesn't matter than the player is on tour and makes a lot of money.  Shots gained, in its truest form, compares how you played to everyone else in the field.  Think of it as similar players.  So if the stat/skill is true for a bunch of tour players the stat/skill will be true for a bunch of 18 handicap players.  Bryson DeChambeau has gained two strokes or more on the field 5 of the last 8 rounds.  Historically gaining two shot on the field happens about 1% of the time.  In those rounds he hit 9/14, 9/14, 9/14, 8/14 & 7/14 fairways per round.  I will remind you that he gained two shots on the field by not hitting all the fairways.  
I'm going to make everyone a free no-strings attached offer!  I've been contemplating entering online coaching market.  I know everyone provides swing instruction, but I want to provide more than just swing work.  I want to provide holistic training for golfers interested in understanding the game, what to train, how to train, how to prepare to play, and how to play.  I don't care if you are trying to win a soda, club championship, us open, or break 100.  To do it well, I need to practice presenting online via zoom or similar.  I am inviting everyone on this thread  to join me for a free webinar on strategy that will cover tee shots, approach shots, Scott Fawcett's DECADE, & any other questions you have about strategy.  You will not hear anything about my program, I will not make a sales offer to you, or answer any questions concerning my online coaching endeavor.
I simply want to share information that I have compiled as a coach that has helped my private students and my women's college team.  If you are interested, reply to this post with your email address.  I will use the address for the Zoom invitation only and you will never receive an email from me for any other purpose.  This offer is not about sales in any way!!
I'm thinking Sunday evening at 8:00 pm eastern time.  
 


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Posted (edited)
On 6/9/2020 at 7:48 PM, LeftyRM7 said:

Plus I’m all about getting better as a player, sure hitting the same shot every time will help your score short term, but trying those shots is the only way to get better at them and really improve in the long run.

To me, getting better means shooting consistently better scores.  Better scores, to some extent, come from making better decisions.  Many of the best players in the world have made the decision to play their standard shot shape unless it is absolutely necessary natural to do something else.  They certainly do practice all shapes, and can generally pull them off, but they have chosen to stay with one shot as much as possible.  That's not a short-term thing, that's a long-term commitment to making the best possible decision each time.

On 6/9/2020 at 9:01 PM, Grit Golf said:

In my own game, I know I have a better chance making par if my 3rd shot is a full pitching wedge or gap wedge from the fairway (skytrak +0.5 handicap 100% of greens/5) vs wherever a 190 yard 5 iron (skytrak -19 handicap 1/5 greens) will leave me (137 feet away on average, tendency left). If there are hazards or bunkers etc it makes the choice even easier.

Looking at the PGA Tour stats from 2019, from 100-125 yards the median scoring with regard to par was -0.17.  That means the median Tour pro (typical handicap of +5 to +7) got up and down about 1 time in 6.  If you're playing at a +0.5 handicap level from that range, I bet you're doing it 1 time in 10, or something like that.  If you can't do better than that from an average of 45 yards, I'd be astounded.  You already hit the green 2 times in 10 from 190, you're way ahead of the game by going for the green from 190.  Obviously if there's a hazard to consider, that might change the decision.

14 hours ago, edteergolf said:

  Bryson DeChambeau has gained two strokes or more on the field 5 of the last 8 rounds.  Historically gaining two shot on the field happens about 1% of the time.  In those rounds he hit 9/14, 9/14, 9/14, 8/14 & 7/14 fairways per round.  I will remind you that he gained two shots on the field by not hitting all the fairways.  

Would it perhaps be more appropriate to say he gained two strokes in spite of not hitting the all fairways?  I know fairways hit doesn't always correlate well with scoring as well as some other statistics, but in general its better to hit them than to miss.

Edited by DaveP043
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3 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

To me, getting better means shooting consistently better scores.  Better scores, to some extent, come from making better decisions.  Many of the best players in the world have made the decision to play their standard shot shape unless it is absolutely natural to do something else.  They certainly do practice all shapes, and can generally pull them off, but they have chosen to stay with one shot as much as possible.  That's not a short-term thing, that's a long-term commitment to making the best possible decision each time.

Looking at the PGA Tour stats from 2019, from 100-125 yards the median scoring with regard to par was -0.17.  That means the median Tour pro (typical handicap of +5 to +7) got up and down about 1 time in 6.  If you're playing at a +0.5 handicap level from that range, I bet you're doing it 1 time in 10, or something like that.  If you can't do better than that from an average of 45 yards, I'd be astounded.  You already hit the green 2 times in 10 from 190, you're way ahead of the game by going for the green from 190.  Obviously if there's a hazard to consider, that might change the decision.

Would it perhaps be more appropriate to say he gained two strokes in spite of not hitting the all fairways?  I know fairways hit doesn't always correlate well with scoring as well as some other statistics, but in general its better to hit them than to miss.

In spite of not hitting all the fairways is a very good question.  I'm not sure I have a statistical way of saying yes or no unless I have access to each hole & his ball position.  My gut tells me that it is more correct that he gained two strokes off the tee using proper strategy and length.  His length may not apply to many but his strategy certainty does. Fairways are in no way bad but finding trouble when just trying to hit the fairway is a flawed strategy.  Great question. 

Look back a few posts - join us on Sunday if you can. 

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3 minutes ago, edteergolf said:

In spite of not hitting all the fairways is a very good question.  I'm not sure I have a statistical way of saying yes or no unless I have access to each hole & his ball position.  My gut tells me that it is more correct that he gained two strokes off the tee using proper strategy and length.  His length may not apply to many but his strategy certainty does. Fairways are in no way bad but finding trouble when just trying to hit the fairway is a flawed strategy.  Great question. 

Look back a few posts - join us on Sunday if you can. 

I understand this point exactly.  Sometimes the smartest spot to aim isn't the center of the fairway, when considering bunkers and penalty areas and terrain and approach angle and any other factors..  A really good tee shot, just a few feet off from the desired aim point could be in the rough, yet still be a success.  Like you, I suspect that Bryson hit a bunch of really "successful" tee shots that just happened to find the rough.

And thanks for the invitation, I'll definitely try to attend on Sunday.  Not sure I'll make it, we have a 36-hole stroke-play event this weekend at Stoneleigh (Round Hill, VA), and I'm usually pretty wiped at the end of these.

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I understand this point exactly.  Sometimes the smartest spot to aim isn't the center of the fairway, when considering bunkers and penalty areas and terrain and approach angle and any other factors..  A really good tee shot, just a few feet off from the desired aim point could be in the rough, yet still be a success.  Like you, I suspect that Bryson hit a bunch of really "successful" tee shots that just happened to find the rough.
And thanks for the invitation, I'll definitely try to attend on Sunday.  Not sure I'll make it, we have a 36-hole stroke-play event this weekend at Stoneleigh (Round Hill, VA), and I'm usually pretty wiped at the end of these.

Yep, your s*** distribution determines where to aim and that spot in the rough might have been exactly where he was aiming.
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13 hours ago, edteergolf said:

This is to everyone who has commented on this topic!!

I'm not sure where to begin.  This isn't an easy topic because it challenges everything that we believe is true about the game.  For the moment, I want to share some data with you and premise it by saying that it doesn't matter than the player is on tour and makes a lot of money.  Shots gained, in its truest form, compares how you played to everyone else in the field.  Think of it as similar players.  So if the stat/skill is true for a bunch of tour players the stat/skill will be true for a bunch of 18 handicap players.  Bryson DeChambeau has gained two strokes or more on the field 5 of the last 8 rounds.  Historically gaining two shot on the field happens about 1% of the time.  In those rounds he hit 9/14, 9/14, 9/14, 8/14 & 7/14 fairways per round.  I will remind you that he gained two shots on the field by not hitting all the fairways.  

I'm going to make everyone a free no-strings attached offer!  I've been contemplating entering online coaching market.  I know everyone provides swing instruction, but I want to provide more than just swing work.  I want to provide holistic training for golfers interested in understanding the game, what to train, how to train, how to prepare to play, and how to play.  I don't care if you are trying to win a soda, club championship, us open, or break 100.  To do it well, I need to practice presenting online via zoom or similar.  I am inviting everyone on this thread  to join me for a free webinar on strategy that will cover tee shots, approach shots, Scott Fawcett's DECADE, & any other questions you have about strategy.  You will not hear anything about my program, I will not make a sales offer to you, or answer any questions concerning my online coaching endeavor.

I simply want to share information that I have compiled as a coach that has helped my private students and my women's college team.  If you are interested, reply to this post with your email address.  I will use the address for the Zoom invitation only and you will never receive an email from me for any other purpose.  This offer is not about sales in any way!!

I'm thinking Sunday evening at 8:00 pm eastern time.  

 

 

13 hours ago, edteergolf said:

This is to everyone who has commented on this topic!!

I'm not sure where to begin.  This isn't an easy topic because it challenges everything that we believe is true about the game.  For the moment, I want to share some data with you and premise it by saying that it doesn't matter than the player is on tour and makes a lot of money.  Shots gained, in its truest form, compares how you played to everyone else in the field.  Think of it as similar players.  So if the stat/skill is true for a bunch of tour players the stat/skill will be true for a bunch of 18 handicap players.  Bryson DeChambeau has gained two strokes or more on the field 5 of the last 8 rounds.  Historically gaining two shot on the field happens about 1% of the time.  In those rounds he hit 9/14, 9/14, 9/14, 8/14 & 7/14 fairways per round.  I will remind you that he gained two shots on the field by not hitting all the fairways.  

I'm going to make everyone a free no-strings attached offer!  I've been contemplating entering online coaching market.  I know everyone provides swing instruction, but I want to provide more than just swing work.  I want to provide holistic training for golfers interested in understanding the game, what to train, how to train, how to prepare to play, and how to play.  I don't care if you are trying to win a soda, club championship, us open, or break 100.  To do it well, I need to practice presenting online via zoom or similar.  I am inviting everyone on this thread  to join me for a free webinar on strategy that will cover tee shots, approach shots, Scott Fawcett's DECADE, & any other questions you have about strategy.  You will not hear anything about my program, I will not make a sales offer to you, or answer any questions concerning my online coaching endeavor.

I simply want to share information that I have compiled as a coach that has helped my private students and my women's college team.  If you are interested, reply to this post with your email address.  I will use the address for the Zoom invitation only and you will never receive an email from me for any other purpose.  This offer is not about sales in any way!!

I'm thinking Sunday evening at 8:00 pm eastern time.  

 

This is a great offer. I have messaged you my email address. Thanks.

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On 6/6/2020 at 8:16 AM, juspoole said:

I was curious to take other's thoughts about how they approach a hole with a slight dogleg.  Holes that obviously call for a draw or fade.  I tend to have a natural fade to my ball so I will usually play on the right side to let it go straight or fade over and generally take out the right side of the course as often as I can(remember I'm a lefty)

Below as example: If I was a Righty, I would still be aiming at tree line to let my fade to over or if I hit it straight I'm ok.  I normally wouldn't be going for the draw here.

image.png.0a53b80d999c1604512fccbde44f8e6c.png

If I have to play a draw, I usually can shape it without much difficulty, but usually have trouble knowing how much it will turn over since that's not my natural shape.

Also would be curious on straighter holes, what are you thoughts.  Play down a certain side of the fairway to play your natural shape?  Pick a spot and try to hit a straight ball?  What has worked for you?

I've heard a lot of instructors with differing thoughts that make sense to me.  If you can't break 80 by hitting it straight, you shouldn't be trying to shape it very often.  Others will say the higher percentage is to have a shape in mind (rather than straight) to take a side of the hole out of play.  Jack Nicklaus used to approach tough driving holes by aiming down the same side of OB and fading/drawing away from it dependent on what was needed.

Part of my ask on this was that I played with my boss the other day and he is probably a 36+ handicap that hardly plays and has a Wilson Box set that has "mid trajectory senior shaft" that are graphite and obviously not right for his game by any stretch (he is a 45 y/o former hockey player).  But, he did not think about these things whatsoever.  He would just aim down the middle or at the pin.  I talked a bit about course strategy and had him playing left of greens for his push fade/slice and he ended with a 102 that could have easily been a 95.

 

My immediate thought is "damn, I sure wish I could reliably draw and fade the ball" 😆.  I too have a natural fade and can pull that ball flight off more consistently.  That said, I don't really have the confidence in being able to control either - the degree to which the ball moves left or right.  If the knee of the dogleg is within my driving distance, I just try and get clear of the corner obstacle or at least stay on the side of the fairway away from it.  

On most courses, aiming down and being in the middle of fairways is rarely going to hurt scoring odds. If I could drive lasers down the centerline for an entire round, I would guess that would improve my average scoring by 4-6 strokes.  Being in the rough, having tree limbs come into play, or worse OB, eats up strokes.


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13 hours ago, edteergolf said:

I simply want to share information that I have compiled as a coach that has helped my private students and my women's college team.  If you are interested, reply to this post with your email address.  I will use the address for the Zoom invitation only and you will never receive an email from me for any other purpose.  This offer is not about sales in any way!!

I'm thinking Sunday evening at 8:00 pm eastern time.  

I'd appreciate an invitation,

davep043@yahoo.com

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1 hour ago, cnosil said:

Yep, your s*** distribution determines where to aim and that spot in the rough might have been exactly where he was aiming.

There's shot distribution, and s*** distribution.  During a typical round, i have some of each.  🤣

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I'd like an invitation also.  my email is larrydavis3 at gmail dot com    Thanks so much  

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On 6/6/2020 at 10:16 AM, juspoole said:

I was curious to take other's thoughts about how they approach a hole with a slight dogleg.  Holes that obviously call for a draw or fade.  I tend to have a natural fade to my ball so I will usually play on the right side to let it go straight or fade over and generally take out the right side of the course as often as I can(remember I'm a lefty)

Below as example: If I was a Righty, I would still be aiming at tree line to let my fade to over or if I hit it straight I'm ok.  I normally wouldn't be going for the draw here.

image.png.0a53b80d999c1604512fccbde44f8e6c.png

If I have to play a draw, I usually can shape it without much difficulty, but usually have trouble knowing how much it will turn over since that's not my natural shape.

Also would be curious on straighter holes, what are you thoughts.  Play down a certain side of the fairway to play your natural shape?  Pick a spot and try to hit a straight ball?  What has worked for you?

I've heard a lot of instructors with differing thoughts that make sense to me.  If you can't break 80 by hitting it straight, you shouldn't be trying to shape it very often.  Others will say the higher percentage is to have a shape in mind (rather than straight) to take a side of the hole out of play.  Jack Nicklaus used to approach tough driving holes by aiming down the same side of OB and fading/drawing away from it dependent on what was needed.

Part of my ask on this was that I played with my boss the other day and he is probably a 36+ handicap that hardly plays and has a Wilson Box set that has "mid trajectory senior shaft" that are graphite and obviously not right for his game by any stretch (he is a 45 y/o former hockey player).  But, he did not think about these things whatsoever.  He would just aim down the middle or at the pin.  I talked a bit about course strategy and had him playing left of greens for his push fade/slice and he ended with a 102 that could have easily been a 95.

 

What course and hole is this? 

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45 yards from the rough, especially if there’s some slope, maybe trees, maybe an awkward lies is not better than 100 yards from the fairway for my game. Tour player short game does not translate to my 16 handicap unfortunately.


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21 minutes ago, Grit Golf said:

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45 yards from the rough, especially if there’s some slope, maybe trees, maybe an awkward lies is not better than 100 yards from the fairway for my game. Tour player short game does not translate to my 16 handicap unfortunately.
 

For me it really depends... obviously if trees block the shot, that's a no go.  I can deal with slope; my course has a lot of it.  If the rough is our typical rough and not tall fescue, I will be better off at 45 yards, but I practice my short game quite a bit.  Not as much as a tour player obviously, but I know I can get most on the green.  That's not a given for me from 100 yards in the fairway.

If you haven't done it, go to a spot in the rough 45 yards out and hit a bunch of balls.  Hit the same number from 100 yards in the fairway.  See which balls are closest to the pin.  


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19 hours ago, edteergolf said:

What course and hole is this? 

Not sure, just more of a representation that I thought fit the bill with the question.  

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On 6/6/2020 at 8:01 PM, bens197 said:

When I’m playing well it’s a straight iron and a slight cut off the driver. Straight is good, fades work and left means I’m all out of whack. 
 

Yes, I can work the ball on command but I’ll take straight all day long. 

I can't hit the ball straight. Theres always a fade or draw to it. My instructors working on that with me.


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I draw on demand or go straight. 
 

if the hole doesn’t fit that... well that’ll be that. Can’t be super aggressive all the time and I have zero issue standing on a tee with a 5 iron that’s landing on the fairway and giving me a chance. 


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