Chizzle Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 Just wanted to see how people feel about how OEMS are moving towards stronger lofted irons. I understand there is a market for such equipment whether it be for reasons such as age, strength, or injury to be competitive but I am not a fan of it. In general i think it promotes for lack of a word, laziness. I feel like it shifts the focus away from putting in the work on your fitness and swing to just buying an answer. Just my opinion. What do you think? Quote Link to comment
gavinski91 Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 With the way technology has changed in irons, the lofts are made stronger but you maintain a similar ball flight shape. So a traditional 7-iron blade flight is the same shape as a SGI 7-iron flight, with the exception of the distance the ball flies. With how low the CG is on CB or players irons, if you maintained the exact same loft you'd end up with a shot that launches way too high and would get pushed all over the place by the wind. Loft jacking doesn't substitute at all for putting in the work on your swing though - a chunked iron is a chunked iron, no matter what loft it is or what number is on the sole. I also don't understand being bothered by what equipment other people are using. If you want to play 20-year-old blades then go for it, but I'm going to choose equipment that allows me to have the most enjoyable time on the course. robertson153, Larryd3, aerospace_ray and 4 others 7 Quote Driver - Radspeed XB, Aldila Rogue Silver 70-S 3 Wood - Radspeed, Aldila Rogue Silver 70-S 5 Wood - Radspeed, Fujikura Motore X F3 6-S 7 Wood - 0341x Gen 4, Mitsubishi Tensei AV Raw Blue 75-S Irons - Pro 225 4-5, 223 6-PW, KBS $-Taper 120 Wedges - King Cobra Snakebite 52° & 58°, KBS Hi-Rev 2.0 S Putter - Stroke Lab Black Ten 35" Ball - Chrome Soft X LS Powered by 2020 ExPutt Official Review | 2021 Cobra Connect Five Participant | 2023 SuperSpeed Official Review Link to comment
aerospace_ray Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 So I am very much a traditional loft proponent today as my traditional clubs/specs fit and achieve my goals regarding distances, trajectories, spin, etc. But I am the first to admit what I consider traditional was at one time considered "strong" from the golfers of a previous generation... So I say all that to state that I think any OEM is going to use the most cost effective state of the art technology to design clubs with material properties that yield distances, trajectories and angle of descent to stop the ball on the greens. That today most likely drives & equates to strong lofts. I will admit, the older I get the more I appreciate technology :)Sent from my SM-N960U using MyGolfSpy mobile app Chizzle 1 Quote Link to comment
Guests Guest Delete Posted June 21, 2020 Guests Share Posted June 21, 2020 (edited) Delete Edited June 29, 2020 by Delete Delete Quote Link to comment
elvis14 Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 1 hour ago, gavinski91 said: With the way technology has changed in irons, the lofts are made stronger but you maintain a similar ball flight shape. So a traditional 7-iron blade flight is the same shape as a SGI 7-iron flight, with the exception of the distance the ball flies. With how low the CG is on CB or players irons, if you maintained the exact same loft you'd end up with a shot that launches way too high and would get pushed all over the place by the wind. Loft jacking doesn't substitute at all for putting in the work on your swing though - a chunked iron is a chunked iron, no matter what loft it is or what number is on the sole. I also don't understand being bothered by what equipment other people are using. If you want to play 20-year-old blades then go for it, but I'm going to choose equipment that allows me to have the most enjoyable time on the course. This pretty much sums up my thoughts. My current irons are TaylorMade M2's. When I was considering them and looked up reviews I saw lots of complaints about loft jacking....yet people admitting that they were getting the same type of trajectory. Eventually, when I'd see a reviewer start to complain about loft jacking I just treated them like a grumpy old guy yelling "someone get those damn kids off my lawn". I bought the loft jacked irons and I enjoy playing them and they seem to be a better fit for me than my previous irons. I'll probably just continue to ignore posts and comments complaining about loft jacking. silver & black, gavinski91, Chizzle and 2 others 5 Quote -elvis14, Hacker, Engineer, Dad, CG Camper, Co-Founder of From Your Neighbor Link to comment
RickyBobby_PR Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 There’s dozens of threads on this subject already. it gets beat to death 3-4 times a year and on pretty much every forum in someway. It’s more than marketing. If you don’t like them don’t play them. GolfSpy_BNG, Chizzle, den748 and 5 others 8 Quote Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4 Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120 Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60 Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1 Ball: Titleist Prov1 Link to comment
Chizzle Posted June 21, 2020 Author Share Posted June 21, 2020 @RickyBobby_PR i am fairly new to the forums and before I created this question, I did a quick search and didnt find a topic about it. I then realized I didnt search properly after seeing your comment so I apologize for creating a redundant topic. Once I found the thread in the club making section, I felt a lot of frustration in that thread from your comments and many others that are like minded to you. That frustration is apparent here as well. I just want to touch on a couple things. I dont play them unless I have to. I dont think its marketing because I used my friends ping g400 irons when my clubs were being regripped. I had a ~192 yrd par 3 to which I used a 7 iron and made it safely on the green so I know they work. I figured it out because I looked up the loft of that 7 iron and did the math compared to what I hit my 7 iron. This whole process may already seperate me from the general average golfer. Like I said in the beginning, I think there is a market as in a consumer population for these types of clubs. I just wanted to know how people felt about it since I couldn't find that thread initially. I'm sorry if this whole thread rubbed you in the wrong way. Not my intention. JohnSmalls and revkev 2 Quote Link to comment
RickyBobby_PR Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 7 hours ago, Chizzle said: @RickyBobby_PR i am fairly new to the forums and before I created this question, I did a quick search and didnt find a topic about it. I then realized I didnt search properly after seeing your comment so I apologize for creating a redundant topic. Once I found the thread in the club making section, I felt a lot of frustration in that thread from your comments and many others that are like minded to you. That frustration is apparent here as well. I just want to touch on a couple things. I dont play them unless I have to. I dont think its marketing because I used my friends ping g400 irons when my clubs were being regripped. I had a ~192 yrd par 3 to which I used a 7 iron and made it safely on the green so I know they work. I figured it out because I looked up the loft of that 7 iron and did the math compared to what I hit my 7 iron. This whole process may already seperate me from the general average golfer. Like I said in the beginning, I think there is a market as in a consumer population for these types of clubs. I just wanted to know how people felt about it since I couldn't find that thread initially. I'm sorry if this whole thread rubbed you in the wrong way. Not my intention. It’s a topic that doesn’t die and gets rehashed multiple times a year. The points on both sides don’t change and the stronger lofts have been occurring for decades with the difference now that every brands offers multiple lines of different loft make up where in the past it was maybe 2 or 3 sets of clubs. Chizzle 1 Quote Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4 Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120 Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60 Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1 Ball: Titleist Prov1 Link to comment
Popular Post cnosil Posted June 21, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted June 21, 2020 My answer is that it is irrelevant to playing golf. As a golfer I need to hit clubs specific distances and I pick the clubs that let me have about a 15 yard gap between clubs. I don't care about the lofts or the degrees between lofts because individual clubs may need to be tweaked to find the right distance. Chizzle, russtopherb, PlaidJacket and 9 others 12 Quote Driver: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven Fairway: TS3 15* w/Project X Hzardous Smoke Hybrids: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype 915H 24* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype Irons: TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite Wedge: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite Putter: Sacks Parente MC 3 Stripe Backup Putters: Milled Collection RSX 2, mFGP2, Futura 5W, TM-180 Member: MGS Hitsquad since 2017 Link to comment
Popular Post revkev Posted June 21, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted June 21, 2020 7 hours ago, Chizzle said: @RickyBobby_PR i am fairly new to the forums and before I created this question, I did a quick search and didnt find a topic about it. I then realized I didnt search properly after seeing your comment so I apologize for creating a redundant topic. Once I found the thread in the club making section, I felt a lot of frustration in that thread from your comments and many others that are like minded to you. That frustration is apparent here as well. I just want to touch on a couple things. I dont play them unless I have to. I dont think its marketing because I used my friends ping g400 irons when my clubs were being regripped. I had a ~192 yrd par 3 to which I used a 7 iron and made it safely on the green so I know they work. I figured it out because I looked up the loft of that 7 iron and did the math compared to what I hit my 7 iron. This whole process may already seperate me from the general average golfer. Like I said in the beginning, I think there is a market as in a consumer population for these types of clubs. I just wanted to know how people felt about it since I couldn't find that thread initially. I'm sorry if this whole thread rubbed you in the wrong way. Not my intention. It comes up frequently because for whatever reason it is a hot topic, still. The reality of so called "jacking" is that it's not. It started with touring pros in the late 70's early 80's who changed lofts on their irons to create even gapping - in some cases pulling a long iron and then tweaking either way with say the 5 and the 3 to offset pulling the 4 to have a driving iron or additional wedge in the set. Then they starting strengthening their lofts because they launched their irons too high. None of that is jacking - that is changing a loft just to appear to be hitting the ball farther. All of it was to have better gapping and control. The first so called "jacked" set that I remember were the old Tommy Armor 845's. Their designed launched the ball higher and again the stronger lofts were necessary to control ball flight through the iron set. There is no reason why we shouldn't take advantage of technological gains. It's easy enough these days for anyone to go for a gapping session with a fitter. He can help us tune our sets so that we have the proper shafts, lofts, lies and club head types in our irons, woods, hybrids and wedges for the way that we swing, putter also for that matter. It removes a variable - why wouldn't I want to do that if my goal is to play better golf? Why wouldn't anyone want to do that? BTW on that same 192 yard hole I would also pull 7 - 7 wood - my handicap is 5 - all that matters is that I can pull the club that I need to use and execute the shot in front of me. Not what someone else is using or why they've decided to game that club. Of course I'm also playing at Sea Level, could be that I would be using 9 wood at altitude. Good luck and thanks for the thread - I will confess that I thought, "Oh no, not again" when I saw it come up so it was a good reminder that just because we've beaten something to death here doesn't mean that our newer members aren't still concerned about the topic. silver & black, PlaidJacket, russtopherb and 10 others 13 Quote Taylor Made Stealth 2 10.5 Diamana S plus 60 Aldila R flex - 42.25 inches SMT 4 wood bassara R flex, four wood head, 3 wood shaft Ping G410 7, 9 wood Alta 65 R flex Srixon ZX5 MK II 5-GW - UST recoil Dart 65 R flex India 52,56 (60 pending) UST recoil 75's R flex Evon roll ER 5 32 inches It's our offseason so auditioning candidates - looking for that right mix of low spin long, more spin around the greens - TBD Link to comment
LeftyRM7 Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 For me it’s really aggravating. I get that there is a market for these jacked clubs, but there is a huge section of golfers that they are not good for. The problem is, data shows more people should use game improvement clubs but when the vast majority of them are strong lofted, it makes it hard. Personally I’m newer to the game, 20 handicap, with a shallow aoa and plenty of speed. Easy to say that I should play gi clubs, but the lofts hurt me and create gapping issues. I need more players lofted cavity backs which narrows my options. I feel like I’m the perfect example of why jacked lofts are hurting the game. Obviously the best thing is more options, but marketing to demographics is much more cost effective and people like to see there 7 iron go farther even if it will never hold a green. Anyone that’s ever seen these clubs on a launch monitor knows the marketing is bs. The 7i became a 6i, who cares what number is on the bottom? I do! Because a set of clubs is the same price and I can use less of them, and I need more specialty clubs to fill those gaps. To me, it’s all marketing and cost effective business tactics. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Chizzle 1 Quote Link to comment
Popular Post chisag Posted June 21, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted June 21, 2020 3 hours ago, cnosil said: My answer is that it is irrelevant to playing golf. As a golfer I need to hit clubs specific distances and I pick the clubs that let me have about a 15 yard gap between clubs. I don't care about the lofts or the degrees between lofts because individual clubs may need to be tweaked to find the right distance. ... I am always amazed at how many scream marketing hype. It is very simple. I need a club that hits the ball 115 yds because that is a scoring opportunity. I really don't care if it is labeled a sand wedge, a gap wedge, a pitching wedge or a 9 iron. More importantly my ball and scorecard don't care either. If you like the way a club looks at address, it gives you the trajectory and spin you need to stop the ball on the green without ballooning from excess spin or flying because of too little spin, what that club is called is irrelevant. russtopherb, cnosil, Letthebigdogshunt and 9 others 11 1 Quote Driver: Qi10 10.5* ... Ventus Red Velocore 5R Fairway: Qi10 5 wood ... Kai'li Blue 60R Hybrids: 430 Hybrid 22*... Diamana LTD 65r DHy #4 ... Steelfiber 780Hy Irons: '23 T200 5-Pw ... Steelfiber i95r Wedges: Vokey 50*/54*/58* ... Steelfiber i95r Putter: Sport-60 33" Ball: Maxfli/ Maxfli Tour/TP5x Link to comment
Middler Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 15 hours ago, gavinski91 said: With the way technology has changed in irons, the lofts are made stronger but you maintain a similar ball flight shape. So a traditional 7-iron blade flight is the same shape as a SGI 7-iron flight, with the exception of the distance the ball flies. With how low the CG is on CB or players irons, if you maintained the exact same loft you'd end up with a shot that launches way too high and would get pushed all over the place by the wind. Loft jacking doesn't substitute at all for putting in the work on your swing though - a chunked iron is a chunked iron, no matter what loft it is or what number is on the sole. So the SGI brand you're talking about doesn't offer a (higher loft) 8i, 9i, PW or GW because they'd "get pushed all over the place by the wind?" Loft jacking is part science, more marketing. There is no reason whatsoever they couldn't have kept the traditional loft and number stamps they've always used - they didn't because of marketing. Joe Q public notes he hits some new SGI "7i" 10-20 yards further than my old 7i, and he's sold. Most amateurs don't know what the lofts on their irons are. But this debate is so beyond beaten to death. Play what you want, even if you're just kidding yourself about how far you hit your X iron. Chizzle 1 Quote Titleist TSR2 11° HZRDUS Red CB 50 6.0 w Lamkin UTx Midsize Titleist TSR2 16.5º HZRDUS Red 60 CB 6.0 & TSR2 21º HZRDUS Black 4G 70 6.0 w Lamkin UTx Midsize Mizuno JPX923 HMP 4-GW, T22 54.12WS, T22 58.04DC w Lamkin ST+2 Hybrid Midsize Evnroll EV5.3 Maxfli Tour & ProV1 Ping Pioneer - MGI Zip Navigator AT Payntr X 002 LE, Ecco Biom C4, Payntr X 001 F (Mesh) Link to comment
GolfSpy BOS Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 I’ll let you know soon. The forged Tecs I will be playing for the CCC4 are stronger than AP2s I have know. I’m liking the idea of swinging a 6 iron that is as short as my 7 iron and flys like my 5 iron. As long as the green holding ability is there. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk sirchunksalot, palvord, JohnSmalls and 3 others 6 Quote Epic Max LS 10.5 - Motore X F3 6X | Speedzone 5-wood - Ventus Blue 8S | TSi3 20* Hybrid - KBS Proto 85S SMS Pro 4-PW - Steelfiber i110S | MG3 Raw Black 50.09, 54.11, 58.11 - DG TI S200 ER2B | Pro V1x | NX9 Slope | Jones Trouper R | CaddyLite EZ v8 Link to comment
RickyBobby_PR Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 24 minutes ago, Middler said: So the SGI brand you're talking about doesn't offer a (higher loft) 8i, 9i, PW or GW because they'd "get pushed all over the place by the wind?" Loft jacking is part science, more marketing. There is no reason whatsoever they couldn't have kept the traditional loft and number stamps they've always used - they didn't because of marketing. Joe Q public notes he hits some new SGI "7i" 10-20 yards further than my old 7i, and he's sold. Most amateurs don't know what the lofts on their irons are. But this debate is so beyond beaten to death. Play what you want, even if you're just kidding yourself about how far you hit your X iron. It’s a lot less marketing and way more science. To deny that is just irresponsible. https://www.todaysgolfer.co.uk/features/equipment-features/2018/november/the-truth-about-strong-lofted-irons/ revkev and Larryd3 2 Quote Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4 Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120 Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60 Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1 Ball: Titleist Prov1 Link to comment
Middler Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 4 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said: It’s a lot less marketing and way more science. To deny that is just irresponsible. https://www.todaysgolfer.co.uk/features/equipment-features/2018/november/the-truth-about-strong-lofted-irons/ Irresponsible? We disagree. For every "article" supporting the science, you can easily find another pointing to marketing if you're curious. But we've all had this debate enough. If you can refute what I said in the earlier post, go for it. Quote Titleist TSR2 11° HZRDUS Red CB 50 6.0 w Lamkin UTx Midsize Titleist TSR2 16.5º HZRDUS Red 60 CB 6.0 & TSR2 21º HZRDUS Black 4G 70 6.0 w Lamkin UTx Midsize Mizuno JPX923 HMP 4-GW, T22 54.12WS, T22 58.04DC w Lamkin ST+2 Hybrid Midsize Evnroll EV5.3 Maxfli Tour & ProV1 Ping Pioneer - MGI Zip Navigator AT Payntr X 002 LE, Ecco Biom C4, Payntr X 001 F (Mesh) Link to comment
RickyBobby_PR Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 4 minutes ago, Middler said: Irresponsible? We disagree. For every "article" supporting the science, you can easily find another pointing to marketing if you're curious. But we've all had this debate enough. If you can refute what I said in the earlier post, go for it. I just refuted it with that article and we have hear from the designers of the clubs as well. @Golfspy_CG2 asked several during his visits to their HQ last year. Quote Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4 Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120 Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60 Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1 Ball: Titleist Prov1 Link to comment
Joker Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 Never understood why people care. If a strong lofted iron doesn't work for you, don't buy it Chizzle 1 Quote Link to comment
Middler Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 3 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said: I just refuted it with that article and we have hear from the designers of the clubs as well. @Golfspy_CG2 asked several during his visits to their HQ last year. OK I wasted my time and read the article - and it does not refute my earlier post at all. Your article even noted it all started with just loft jacking for the sake of distance (which is purely marketing nonsense), until buyers noted they'd lost approach spin/green holding. But keep throwing up links to support what you already believe. I won't bother to counter with just as many credible articles that acknowledge the marketing angle along with the science. Quote Titleist TSR2 11° HZRDUS Red CB 50 6.0 w Lamkin UTx Midsize Titleist TSR2 16.5º HZRDUS Red 60 CB 6.0 & TSR2 21º HZRDUS Black 4G 70 6.0 w Lamkin UTx Midsize Mizuno JPX923 HMP 4-GW, T22 54.12WS, T22 58.04DC w Lamkin ST+2 Hybrid Midsize Evnroll EV5.3 Maxfli Tour & ProV1 Ping Pioneer - MGI Zip Navigator AT Payntr X 002 LE, Ecco Biom C4, Payntr X 001 F (Mesh) Link to comment
Middler Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 9 minutes ago, Joker said: Never understood why people care. If a strong lofted iron doesn't work for you, don't buy it No one cares what others buy. It's when OEM's claim their irons are X longer when they've jacked lofts, it's mostly BS. And when players claim they hit their new 7i as far as their old 5i without realizing the lofts on the two clubs are the same (or close), that's mostly BS. They haven't gained distance, they've mostly just paid to have clubs stamped with different numbers/lofts than the old set. Or my favorite is when players say OEMs had to lower lofts to maintain trajectory with new iron geometry, that's mostly BS. But I'm done, been down this black hole too many times... Chizzle 1 Quote Titleist TSR2 11° HZRDUS Red CB 50 6.0 w Lamkin UTx Midsize Titleist TSR2 16.5º HZRDUS Red 60 CB 6.0 & TSR2 21º HZRDUS Black 4G 70 6.0 w Lamkin UTx Midsize Mizuno JPX923 HMP 4-GW, T22 54.12WS, T22 58.04DC w Lamkin ST+2 Hybrid Midsize Evnroll EV5.3 Maxfli Tour & ProV1 Ping Pioneer - MGI Zip Navigator AT Payntr X 002 LE, Ecco Biom C4, Payntr X 001 F (Mesh) Link to comment
RickyBobby_PR Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 3 minutes ago, Middler said: OK I wasted my time and read the article - and it does not refute my earlier post at all. Your article even noted it all started with just loft jacking for the sake of distance (which is purely marketing nonsense), until buyers noted they'd lost approach spin/green holding. But keep throwing up links to support what you already believe. I won't bother to counter with just as many credible articles that acknowledge the marketing angle along with the science. Again there’s been first hand info from a mod on this site and based on my own personal interactions with designers of clubs and shafts I tend to believe them more than I discredit the marketing. One can read into whatever they from marketing or articles that support their distrust for marketing all they want, but when it comes from those who spend hours upon hours testing, re-designing and doing more testing to get a product ready for retail it’s a hard to deny. Quote Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4 Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120 Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60 Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1 Ball: Titleist Prov1 Link to comment
chisag Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 5 minutes ago, Middler said: No one cares what others buy. It's when OEM's claim their irons are X longer when they've jacked lofts, it's mostly BS. And when players claim they hit their new 7i as far as their old 5i without realizing the lofts on the two clubs are the same (or close), that's mostly BS. They haven't gained distance, they've mostly just paid to have clubs stamped with different numbers/lofts than the old set. Or my favorite is when players say OEMs had to lower lofts to maintain trajectory with new iron geometry, that's mostly BS. ... I know you feel strongly about this Middler, but I really think the truth is somewhere in-between. Developing SGI and some GI irons it was clear they needed to decrease loft. The fact that some may hit the ball farther was no doubt a huge consideration. And taking it another step, continuing to decrease lofts with 5* gaps is also a distance decision. So plenty of science AND marketing involved, but not just one or just the other. But forced to choose only one over the other I would agree marketing plays a larger role than the science. ... I also think the days of bragging about distance is pretty much gone. Just too many variables involved. Every now and then I get a comment about how far I hit an iron, but mostly because I am 67 not because it is insanely long, just long for my age. If I hit a 7 iron 171 with a hint of wind existence, a higher index player needing a hybrid and in their 40's or 50's may be amazed I hit a 7 iron. But plenty of younger and/or longer hitting players that hit a 7 our 8 iron care much more about my score compared to theirs than how far I hit an iron compared to how far they hit one. JohnSmalls, Golfspy_CG2, aerospace_ray and 5 others 8 Quote Driver: Qi10 10.5* ... Ventus Red Velocore 5R Fairway: Qi10 5 wood ... Kai'li Blue 60R Hybrids: 430 Hybrid 22*... Diamana LTD 65r DHy #4 ... Steelfiber 780Hy Irons: '23 T200 5-Pw ... Steelfiber i95r Wedges: Vokey 50*/54*/58* ... Steelfiber i95r Putter: Sport-60 33" Ball: Maxfli/ Maxfli Tour/TP5x Link to comment
Joker Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 48 minutes ago, Middler said: No one cares what others buy. It's when OEM's claim their irons are X longer when they've jacked lofts, it's mostly BS. And when players claim they hit their new 7i as far as their old 5i without realizing the lofts on the two clubs are the same (or close), that's mostly BS. They haven't gained distance, they've mostly just paid to have clubs stamped with different numbers/lofts than the old set. Or my favorite is when players say OEMs had to lower lofts to maintain trajectory with new iron geometry, that's mostly BS. But I'm done, been down this black hole too many times... You're making it something when it's nothing. You sure do seem to care russtopherb, THEZIPR23, Golfspy_CG2 and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment
LeftyRM7 Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 The problem is that if you want gi clubs but not strong lofts, your options are very limited. They are not for everyone. What most people overlook is the added cost. If you’re spending $1000 on a set of irons but can’t use 2 or 3 of them, then have to buy other clubs to replace them along with another wedge because your PW became a 9i. From a consumers perspective, it feels like it’s all about selling more clubs. It’s effectively making iron sets smaller for a lot of golfers. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Chizzle 1 Quote Link to comment
RickyBobby_PR Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 2 minutes ago, LeftyRM7 said: The problem is that if you want gi clubs but not strong lofts, your options are very limited. They are not for everyone. What most people overlook is the added cost. If you’re spending $1000 on a set of irons but can’t use 2 or 3 of them, then have to buy other clubs to replace them along with another wedge because your PW became a 9i. From a consumers perspective, it feels like it’s all about selling more clubs. It’s effectively making iron sets smaller for a lot of golfers. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk The good thing about equipment nowadays is you don’t have to buy a full set or even the typical 3-p or 4-p that we saw up until 10 years or so ago. One can buy a 5 or 6 piece set or one could opt for adding the set gw and in some cases sw and not buy the 4 or 5 iron. Lots of set makeups these days and the vast majority of brands charge by the club vice by the set. As for options the brands saw the need for having something that was GI but didn’t have the look of the GI which is now known as players distance irons like the p790 or i500 and the original players distance irons in the Ap2 that have now been moved to the t100-s. bending lofts has always been done and for some that could impact turf interaction due to the change in bounce which is what lead to the t100-s. While some will look past it or to an extend discredit the need for fittings getting fit will help find the right set makeup so that one isn’t spending $1000 on irons then $500 on wedges and another $500 on woods to have some of the clubs sitting around the house doing nothing because they don’t fit the gaps or the golfer can’t hit them Larryd3, Golfspy_CG2 and Chizzle 3 Quote Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4 Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120 Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60 Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1 Ball: Titleist Prov1 Link to comment
GaDawg Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 I suggest that we just take the numbers off our irons and put names on them. Maybe our kids and grand kids names. Your oldest kid could be your 4 iron, middle child 5 irons, etc. etc. Wedge 1, Wedge 2 and Wedge 3 My point being, it does not matter. You have to hit the club close to the hole and make the putt and score as low as possible. chisag, aerospace_ray, Larryd3 and 2 others 5 Quote Driver: TSI3 - 10*, Hzrdus Smoke 6.0 Stiff Driver: Stealth Plus - 10.5*, Oban Kiyoshi Purple O4Flex-65 Grams Purred 3 Wood: SIM - 15*, Graphite Design Tour AD DJ5 Stiff Hybrid: TS3 - 19*, Hzrdus Smoke 6.0 Stiff Irons: 5 - PW T150, with Nippon Zelos 7 Reg, 4 iron - U505 with Project X HZRDUS Black Stiff Wedges: Vokey SM 8 - 50*, 60* Standard Wedge Shafts Wedge: Milled Grind 3 MG3 56* S200 shaft Putter: Studio Select Newport 1.5 Putter: Phantom X 5.5 Ball: Pro V1x Link to comment
chisag Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 20 minutes ago, LeftyRM7 said: The problem is that if you want gi clubs but not strong lofts, your options are very limited. They are not for everyone. What most people overlook is the added cost. If you’re spending $1000 on a set of irons but can’t use 2 or 3 of them, then have to buy other clubs to replace them along with another wedge because your PW became a 9i. From a consumers perspective, it feels like it’s all about selling more clubs. It’s effectively making iron sets smaller for a lot of golfers. ... The days of selling iron sets as only 3-pw are long gone. All OEMs allow you to order a set any way you want. And of course most offer 1 or even 2 additional wedges. For instance Titleist designed the T300's with a 53* W2, a 48* W and a 43* P but you can order thru a 23* 5 iron, a 26* 6 iron or even a 29* 7 iron and round out your set with hybrids. So you can order them as a 8, 7, 6 club set or any number off irons you want. And the nice thing is you can combo anywhere you want, like a T100-S 8-pw and T200 4-6 iron. Larryd3, GolfSpy_BNG, JohnSmalls and 3 others 6 Quote Driver: Qi10 10.5* ... Ventus Red Velocore 5R Fairway: Qi10 5 wood ... Kai'li Blue 60R Hybrids: 430 Hybrid 22*... Diamana LTD 65r DHy #4 ... Steelfiber 780Hy Irons: '23 T200 5-Pw ... Steelfiber i95r Wedges: Vokey 50*/54*/58* ... Steelfiber i95r Putter: Sport-60 33" Ball: Maxfli/ Maxfli Tour/TP5x Link to comment
LeftyRM7 Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 The good thing about equipment nowadays is you don’t have to buy a full set or even the typical 3-p or 4-p that we saw up until 10 years or so ago. One can buy a 5 or 6 piece set or one could opt for adding the set gw and in some cases sw and not buy the 4 or 5 iron. Lots of set makeups these days and the vast majority of brands charge by the club vice by the set. As for options the brands saw the need for having something that was GI but didn’t have the look of the GI which is now known as players distance irons like the p790 or i500 and the original players distance irons in the Ap2 that have now been moved to the t100-s. bending lofts has always been done and for some that could impact turf interaction due to the change in bounce which is what lead to the t100-s. While some will look past it or to an extend discredit the need for fittings getting fit will help find the right set makeup so that one isn’t spending $1000 on irons then $500 on wedges and another $500 on woods to have some of the clubs sitting around the house doing nothing because they don’t fit the gaps or the golfer can’t hit themAgreed, their are more options now than their probably used to be. Titleist and Ping have good ranges of options but outside of them it’s hit or miss. I lived this loft jacked nightmare in finding a good set of irons for myself. I felt very limited and stuck between game improvement and players distance. I haven’t seen the numbers but it feels like the loft jacked irons are disproportionate to the number of players they fit. Good news is that the industry seems to be headed more towards fitting and wider ranges of options to fit more golfers.Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk GaDawg 1 Quote Link to comment
Middler Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 2 hours ago, chisag said: ... I know you feel strongly about this Middler, but I really think the truth is somewhere in-between. Developing SGI and some GI irons it was clear they needed to decrease loft. The fact that some may hit the ball farther was no doubt a huge consideration. And taking it another step, continuing to decrease lofts with 5* gaps is also a distance decision. So plenty of science AND marketing involved, but not just one or just the other. But forced to choose only one over the other I would agree marketing plays a larger role than the science. ... I also think the days of bragging about distance is pretty much gone. And that’s why my first post in this thread, said “loft jacking is part science, more marketing“ - as I’ve said in every thread. I’ve never said there’s no science to it. Not you, but most who take the science side entirely come back at me with one non-sequitur after another and ignore the content - I’m done chasing that myopic nonsense. Again here today the link put up defending science acknowledged it all started purely as marketing hype with nothing but jacked lofts, the science aspect came after. And while some players have quit bragging about how far they hit their X iron, the OEMs are still routinely “bragging” about their how long their distance/SGI irons are... Quote Titleist TSR2 11° HZRDUS Red CB 50 6.0 w Lamkin UTx Midsize Titleist TSR2 16.5º HZRDUS Red 60 CB 6.0 & TSR2 21º HZRDUS Black 4G 70 6.0 w Lamkin UTx Midsize Mizuno JPX923 HMP 4-GW, T22 54.12WS, T22 58.04DC w Lamkin ST+2 Hybrid Midsize Evnroll EV5.3 Maxfli Tour & ProV1 Ping Pioneer - MGI Zip Navigator AT Payntr X 002 LE, Ecco Biom C4, Payntr X 001 F (Mesh) Link to comment
Middler Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 1 hour ago, LeftyRM7 said: The problem is that if you want gi clubs but not strong lofts, your options are very limited. They are not for everyone. What most people overlook is the added cost. If you’re spending $1000 on a set of irons but can’t use 2 or 3 of them, then have to buy other clubs to replace them along with another wedge because your PW became a 9i. From a consumers perspective, it feels like it’s all about selling more clubs. It’s effectively making iron sets smaller for a lot of golfers. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk That’s my overriding issue. I wanted a forged GI for some forgiveness, but there aren’t any anymore - so my irons are jacked one club. I’m not kidding myself that I hit them any longer, I don’t. My current 7i goes the same distance as my old 6i did - spin and trajectory aren’t noticeably different. I would have been perfectly happy to buy forged GI irons with traditional lofts (7i=35*). Fortunately the iron sets that are jacked 2 clubs or more are cast shovels that I’d never buy anyway. Where does it stop, when a 21 loft iron is stamped as a 9 iron? Quote Titleist TSR2 11° HZRDUS Red CB 50 6.0 w Lamkin UTx Midsize Titleist TSR2 16.5º HZRDUS Red 60 CB 6.0 & TSR2 21º HZRDUS Black 4G 70 6.0 w Lamkin UTx Midsize Mizuno JPX923 HMP 4-GW, T22 54.12WS, T22 58.04DC w Lamkin ST+2 Hybrid Midsize Evnroll EV5.3 Maxfli Tour & ProV1 Ping Pioneer - MGI Zip Navigator AT Payntr X 002 LE, Ecco Biom C4, Payntr X 001 F (Mesh) Link to comment
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