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"Loft jacking"

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8 minutes ago, Kenny B said:

My feelings exactly!  People keep bring up this topic because one of their buddies just bought new clubs and now flies the ball further than they do.  

Play whatever feels good to you and makes your round enjoyable.

Exactly this. It's the guy's who think they are better than others and their ego can't handle when the old guy hit's a 7i when they are hitting 7i and get upset about it.

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This topic is really fascinating, every time it comes up it brings out some crazy comments. I don’t get the people that “don’t care” but always seem to have strong opinions about people that do. Really what everyone wants is 1) engineering, not marketing from the OEMs and 2) more options to help suit more players. Not sure when or if we’ll ever get either. Not every OEM has the integrity that Titleist and Ping seem to have. Marketing, bottom lines, release cycles, and demographics are real things that get in the way sometimes. It’s really an issue that encompasses everything that MGS is about.


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16 minutes ago, LeftyRM7 said:

This topic is really fascinating, every time it comes up it brings out some crazy comments. I don’t get the people that “don’t care” but always seem to have strong opinions about people that do. Really what everyone wants is 1) engineering, not marketing from the OEMs and 2) more options to help suit more players. Not sure when or if we’ll ever get either. Not every OEM has the integrity that Titleist and Ping seem to have. Marketing, bottom lines, release cycles, and demographics are real things that get in the way sometimes. It’s really an issue that encompasses everything that MGS is about.


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Ping and Titleist have always approached things from the engineering side and the marketing wasn’t always about the big buzzwords and promises. Probably one of the several reasons that titleist had and to some extent still has the “for better players” perception attached to the brand. Ping to some extent still has the old man perception.

Marketing and engineer work together and the marketing department has to put a pretty spin on things otherwise all the engineering language would go right over most peoples heads and they would be turned off. People want to be told what the club will do for them and don’t really care  about the nuts and bolts of it. The ones hat can blend the two together succeed as we have seen with Callaway and Taylormade leading most categories year in and year out for awhile now. When some of the marketing guys at Taylormade left for Callaway and they started the five year war you saw the effects in sales and Callaway chipped away and became the sales leader and Taylormade lost some of its mojo. 
 

 


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3 hours ago, chisag said:

 

... Well, it is a golf forum and we are discussing a topic. This particular topic seems to fall into 1. don't really care or 2. care very much. The only part that gets to me is those that think there is some kind of conspiracy from OEMs trying to trick their customers with false marketing and hype. They do focus groups, they research extensively to find out what their customers want and what sells. Titleist alone offers 5 different T-Series irons and their 9 iron lofts are 46, 44, 43, 43, 38. Something for everyone and every level of play. Marketing is and always has been about capturing your attention and selling you a product. I love marketing and enjoy all the effort that goes into it. But it takes a very gullible person to chose any product simply because of an ad, and I just don't think many of those consumers exist on a golf forum. Interesting topic to discuss if done respectfully, but I fall into the camp of it is what it is so I accept it,  while some seem to tilt at windmills. 

 

I was confused by how irons have changed and I now carry a 4-G rather than 3-P. So I took some time and tried to understand why. 

In life, I subscribe to the logic that “your inability to understand is not a valid argument to the contrary.”  It applies well to current affairs but I’ll save that for the PM’s 😊

So as it applies to lofts, I’ll offer my simple understanding of why. The geometry of the heads does not allow for a traditional loft, That’s all it is.  

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24 minutes ago, bens197 said:

So as it applies to lofts, I’ll offer my simple understanding of why. The geometry of the heads does not allow for a traditional loft, That’s all it is.  

That's as simple as you can put it.  However, I and others have tried saying that so many times, but there are those who still think it's 1960 and we haven't landed a man on the moon yet, who refuse to believe it 🙂

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1 minute ago, Golfspy_CG2 said:

That's as simple as you can put it.  However, I and others have tried saying that so many times, but there are those who still think it's 1960 and we haven't landed a man on the moon yet, who refuse to believe it 🙂

 

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3 minutes ago, bens197 said:

 

LOL..so many great clips from that movie! 

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I feel like im getting lumped into this group of the jealous or ego driven because I started this thread.  I'm not trying to puff my chest out, so to speak, but I'm the best player in my regular foursome (which isn't saying much since I'm a 14 hdcp but I'm working on getting better) so there is no ego involved with me starting this thread.  I also dont care about what other people are using.  

I looked up Tigers, Rorys, and a couple other tour players specs and the top players are using around 35-36° 7 irons and hitting them 170-185 ish yards.  I'm sure you'll be able to find guys that have stronger lofted clubs and thats great but I'm looking at the best in the game.  I'm also looking at this from a sports perspective.  The amount of time and energy spent to create their swings and our swings is an important thing to me.  I understand that it's a hobby for most and the OEMs give what the customer wants.  Great!  Awesome! But what about the consumer group that share similar ideas as I do? 

As I had mentioned earlier, a lot consumers purchase clubs based only on distance so the OEMs created clubs to win launch monitor battles, and then they figured out the tech so they can actually be gamed.  Awesome! BTW @Golfspy_CG2 thank you for that awesome clip.  I already knew the new clubs had tech to preserve launch conditions and I didnt question the play ability because I used ping g400 for a round when my set was getting regripped.  I'm not saying this should stop but I am wondering how far will it go and what happens to people like me.

At the end of it, it's either I go with the change that's occurring or pay $2000 dollars for tiger woods irons.  

As always, thank you all for your comments and time!

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The thing with Tiger is though, he hates changing his specs. He's played pretty much the same lofts his entire career. But he's also an outlier on the tour. He plays a 49° PW and only carries a 56° and a 60° wedge beyond that. He wants his irons to hit the exact windows that he's been used to his whole career. That means a stock 8 iron that goes 162.

But you'll also see guys on Tour playing much stronger lofts for a myriad of reasons. Bryson had to strengthen his lofts with his added speed to bring the spin down to a manageable level. Pat Perez plays PXG's most forgiving irons. Titleist's most common iron on Tour are the T100 irons and before that the AP2s.

There's not much benefit to the average player in just looking at the specs of some of the best tour players because for most of us, they're not going to be a great fit. Go get a professional fitting from a qualified fitter and play what suits your game and your needs the best. If that's something with stronger lofts, so be it. Most OEMs offer such a wide range of types of irons that I really don't understand all the whining about jacked lofts. SGI are aimed at a very specific slice of the market just like blades are. Chances are the average player is going to fall somewhere in the middle of those extremes. At the end of the day, it's about getting manageable launch conditions for how you deliver the club. There's a lot that goes into club design that many of the people who scream MARKETING don't seem to want to understand.

I feel like im getting lumped into this group of the jealous or ego driven because I started this thread.  I'm not trying to puff my chest out, so to speak, but I'm the best player in my regular foursome (which isn't saying much since I'm a 14 hdcp but I'm working on getting better) so there is no ego involved with me starting this thread.  I also dont care about what other people are using.  
I looked up Tigers, Rorys, and a couple other tour players specs and the top players are using around 35-36° 7 irons and hitting them 170-185 ish yards.  I'm sure you'll be able to find guys that have stronger lofted clubs and thats great but I'm looking at the best in the game.  I'm also looking at this from a sports perspective.  The amount of time and energy spent to create their swings and our swings is an important thing to me.  I understand that it's a hobby for most and the OEMs give what the customer wants.  Great!  Awesome! But what about the consumer group that share similar ideas as I do? 
As I had mentioned earlier, a lot consumers purchase clubs based only on distance so the OEMs created clubs to win launch monitor battles, and then they figured out the tech so they can actually be gamed.  Awesome! BTW [mention=65448]Golfspy_CG2[/mention] thank you for that awesome clip.  I already knew the new clubs had tech to preserve launch conditions and I didnt question the play ability because I used ping g400 for a round when my set was getting regripped.  I'm not saying this should stop but I am wondering how far will it go and what happens to people like me.
At the end of it, it's either I go with the change that's occurring or pay $2000 dollars for tiger woods irons.  
As always, thank you all for your comments and time!


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On 6/21/2020 at 8:10 AM, cnosil said:

My answer is that it is irrelevant to playing golf.  As a golfer I need to hit clubs specific distances and I pick the clubs that let me have about a 15 yard gap between clubs.  I don't care about the lofts or the degrees between lofts because individual clubs may need to be tweaked to find the right distance.  

Totally agree. Lots of golfers think of it as a muscle game.. ‘I hit my 7 190yds, etc’... truth is as per rules of golf nobody should ask which club we hit. Nobody shoul even care. It does not matter which club I use as far as I hit GIR....

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6 hours ago, Chizzle said:

I feel like im getting lumped into this group of the jealous or ego driven because I started this thread.  I'm not trying to puff my chest out, so to speak, but I'm the best player in my regular foursome (which isn't saying much since I'm a 14 hdcp but I'm working on getting better) so there is no ego involved with me starting this thread.  I also dont care about what other people are using.

For some reason on this topic, you’re going to be misrepresented by a handful of loft jacking zealots, even though your post content is plain to see. They’ll ignore the questions you ask, give answers to questions you haven’t asked, and mischaracterize your POV. Iron lofts have changed due in part to tech, part just marketing spin - both easily shown. You can’t buy GI irons anymore with the same lofts that were once common.


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7 hours ago, Chizzle said:

I'm not saying this should stop but I am wondering how far will it go and what happens to people like me.

At the end of it, it's either I go with the change that's occurring or pay $2000 dollars for tiger woods irons.  

I think you are going down the golf is doomed route which it’s not. Every club manufacturer has a wide range of club types with lofts from what most have been used to in the last 20 years in MBs and or some type of CB up to something like the t400. The brands know that there are people not on tour that want to play smaller heads and thin top lines which is why they have CBS and MBs, these aren’t going away so guys that want to these type of irons will be able to play them.
 

You mention a few players that have blades in their bag and tiger who Taylormade spent roughly 2 years trying to make tigers perfect club to fit a launch window. This is what many pros look for. They want all their clubs to go thru a certain window. What you look past or may not have know is that the number 1 iron on tour for awhile has been the AP2 which titleist designed time be a players distance iron but became their preferred tour iron. This line up now converted into the t100 and the more player distance version t100-2 are now on their 6th release. 

There are brands like new level and sub70 that also make what many consider the traditional lofted irons.

I would doubt we see any mainstream brand remove mb or cb from their lineup in the next 10 years or ever. Titleist sells very few sets of CB irons compared to Ap2 and yet they keep making them for those who don’t want to play the MBs but want a smaller head.

 I’m going to have to either suck it up and play stronger lofts or spend it if money is just an over reaction to a non existent problem. 

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8 hours ago, Chizzle said:

I feel like im getting lumped into this group of the jealous or ego driven because I started this thread.  I'm not trying to puff my chest out, so to speak, but I'm the best player in my regular foursome (which isn't saying much since I'm a 14 hdcp but I'm working on getting better) so there is no ego involved with me starting this thread.  I also dont care about what other people are using.  

I looked up Tigers, Rorys, and a couple other tour players specs and the top players are using around 35-36° 7 irons and hitting them 170-185 ish yards.  I'm sure you'll be able to find guys that have stronger lofted clubs and thats great but I'm looking at the best in the game.  I'm also looking at this from a sports perspective.  The amount of time and energy spent to create their swings and our swings is an important thing to me.  I understand that it's a hobby for most and the OEMs give what the customer wants.  Great!  Awesome! But what about the consumer group that share similar ideas as I do? 

As I had mentioned earlier, a lot consumers purchase clubs based only on distance so the OEMs created clubs to win launch monitor battles, and then they figured out the tech so they can actually be gamed.  Awesome! BTW @Golfspy_CG2 thank you for that awesome clip.  I already knew the new clubs had tech to preserve launch conditions and I didnt question the play ability because I used ping g400 for a round when my set was getting regripped.  I'm not saying this should stop but I am wondering how far will it go and what happens to people like me.

At the end of it, it's either I go with the change that's occurring or pay $2000 dollars for tiger woods irons.  

As always, thank you all for your comments and time!

You're welcome for the clip. Glad you enjoyed it. 

  Glen is a fountain of knowledge, he has literally fit the best players in the world as he was the lead guy on the PGA Tour Van for several years and now heads up the TPI Oceanside, where he also fits some of the worst players---like me!    I learned so much in my half day with him.  Things that are common misconceptions, taller players need extra length clubs, blades make you a better ball striker, low spin is only for high speed players...and so on.

I certainly didn't mean to lump you in any crowd.  I just thought the part about him saying lower lofted irons once you get down to the 23/24 degree area are more playable than people realize touched on a point you had brought up. 

 

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16 hours ago, Golfspy_CG2 said:

That's as simple as you can put it.  However, I and others have tried saying that so many times, but there are those who still think it's 1960 and we haven't landed a man on the moon yet, who refuse to believe it 🙂

Um... The Earth IS flat.......

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I love this topic every time I see it pop up here because there are so many people, "willing to die on this hill," when it comes to their perspective of what the loft of a club should be.

I have never been too concerned about the loft of my clubs as long as they are gapped properly and help me shoot lower scores. 

I have become a big proponent of being properly fitted and if that means that the clubs in my bag are, "loft jacked," so be it. All I want to see is a trend towards lower numbers on my scorecard.

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15 minutes ago, palvord said:

I love this topic every time I see it pop up here because there are so many people, "willing to die on this hill," when it comes to their perspective of what the loft of a club should be.

I have never been too concerned about the loft of my clubs as long as they are gapped properly and help me shoot lower scores. 

I have become a big proponent of being properly fitted and if that means that the clubs in my bag are, "loft jacked," so be it. All I want to see is a trend towards lower numbers on my scorecard.

Amen Brother!

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21 hours ago, LeftyRM7 said:

This topic is really fascinating, every time it comes up it brings out some crazy comments. I don’t get the people that “don’t care” but always seem to have strong opinions about people that do.

I don't really care about "loft jacking" as it's called. I look at it more as knowledge gained over the course of  the last couple of decades or so in the development and technology of club making and fitting.

I have no opinions, strong or otherwise, about anyone that cares about the topic, and vice versa.

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