NPG Episode 42: Should The Golf Ball Be Rolled Back?

[GolfSpy MPR]

Bryson Dechambeau drops bombs on the PGA Tour and reignites the ball rollback debate.

0:52 - Should The Golf Ball Be Rolled Back?
37:45 - Is THIS New Golf Shoe The Future?
48:02 - What Brand Would You NOT Let Sponsor You?
57:15 - Getting Knighted by Nick Faldo

 Listen to NPG:

• SoundCloud: https://soundcloud.com/mygolfspy/no-putts-given-42
• iTunes: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/should-we-roll-back-the-golf-ball-npg-42/id1356729135?i=1000478926268

 Watch NPG:

• YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bJLkGUBCIU

[fixyurdivot]

I'm beginning to think so... at least for the tours.  I just watched DeChambeau grab a 3w on a 329 yard hole because the driver is too much.  He comes up about 10 yards short of the front of green.  The majority of courses simply were not designed for, and many cannot be modified for, this trend.  I guess my question to those who say this is not an issue is; at what point does it become an issue?  If the tour courses could grow in length and difficulty to match the hitting lengths then we really wouldn't be having the discussion.

I also don't agree with Adam that it's only the "older generation" that has the issue.  I think a good many of all ages still like the game to be more than just a drive and pitch show.  Seeing the pros have to think through and work through more of the bag makes it more interesting and more in line with the origins of the game.

[BADFanBoi Scotty]

I'm surprised that it wasn't mentioned about all the legal... Legal-ness that would go down if this happened, particularly in the lawsuit happy America.

• Ball manufacturers would have a case.
  • Who would want to even manufacture the 'pro' ball when no-one else would want to buy it. Will the PGA Tour order their own ball from Taiwan?
• Tour staff for ball companies would have a case for loss of income, patents etc.
• DeShamBo and McIllroy would have a case because it affects them more than it does Mr 275y Average (Total yards lost).

I would still think that the best approach (If we don't just 'grow the grass,' which is the easiest solution to even try as mentioned) would be to decrease the maximum driver head size. I really hate the idea of limiting technology.

I'm sure there's three or four contradictions in what I said that could be picked up on!

 

On 6/22/2020 at 4:36 AM, fixyurdivot said:

I guess my question to those who say this is not an issue is; at what point does it become an issue?  If the tour courses could grow in length and difficulty to match the hitting lengths then we really wouldn't be having the discussion.

I'm thinking of one of my more local courses... Par 68, 6 par 3's. Great track.

Courses already turn Par 5s into 4s, why not 4s into threes?

Or add a Par 3, build a new tee for the tournament and have a 700m par 5.

Everyone still has to play the same course.

[fixyurdivot]

No doubt the legal issues would be a mess.  As stated in the podcast and by many in the many threads on this topic, letting the grass grow longer is a simple, no cost experiment. 

[Middler]

Another good NPG video. I really like all the guys (and girl) and their POVs are informative. However I’m not sure I agree with a couple points on rolling back the ball.

I don’t think having 8000 yard courses is an answer, who will build and $ support these courses that no one but pros play? I guess they could have forward tees for the rest of us, but placing hazards would be tougher.

And I think the ramifications of letting some classic old courses fall off the pro calendar might have greater consequences than noted. St Andrews was mentioned. But isn’t part of the attraction (and premium rates) of playing St Andrews (and every classic course) for the rest of us that it’s the same course pros contest The Open on? If pros no longer play there, eventually amateurs won’t be as interested in playing there either, and it’s a downward spiral?

FWIW, I don’t think bifurcation is the answer. I like the MGS suggestion to just narrow fairways and grow rough out past 300 yards - try it for a year and see. 

Professional basketball, football, baseball, tennis and pro athletes from every other sport can perform at a level far beyond 99.99% of amateurs. No one is trying to ratchet them back. Yes it’s odd to reach par 5’s in 2, but they’ve gotten that good. I admire Nicklaus but it’s a little disingenuous that he’s criticizing today’s players length when he had a distance advantage most of his career (not suggesting that was his only advantage).

[RickyBobby_PR]

On 6/21/2020 at 2:36 PM, fixyurdivot said:

I guess my question to those who say this is not an issue is; at what point does it become an issue? 

When the USGA and R&A get out of the way. The issue isn’t distance on the tour it’s the course setup. Fairways cut low, rough cut low of any at all.

Not saying every pga tournament needs to go to US Open setups but growing the rough a little more to penalize tee shots and having the fairways grown in a bit to cut down on the roll. 
 

The other issue is from the course designers who are getting paid to build courses that can be used to host a pga tour even or other high level event think the only way to do that is build a longer course and complain that land isn’t there to build them, rather than set them up to reward accuracy.

Lastly the PGA tour is in the business of selling a product and making money from that product, they know the long ball and low scores sells most weeks that aren’t majors. 

[fixyurdivot]

So let's ask the question "at what point would increased hitting lengths make the game a yawner"?  Would a large majority of balls rolling onto par 4 greens or aprons off the tee, or second shots on par 5's, be the game you want to watch?  I for one certainly wouldn't.  For my tastes, it would make the game too one dimensional.  Sure bomb drives are fun to watch.  So are home runs in baseball.  But if advances in physical condition or technology suddenly had every other batter swatting balls over the fence, that would be boring to me.  I guess I just like the traditions of these sports.

It's really a sticky wicket.  If you grow the fairway grass to suppress the long drivers but allow the short hitters to roll out close to their drives, is that fair?  8000 yard courses likewise presents a challenge in that the majority of the tour players who aren't long hitters are now penalized.  The Podcast group mentions that the "bomb & wedge" is not true - that in fact many more second shots require mid iron/hybrid clubs.  I haven't seen the data on that, but while watching many events on TV, it sure seems like a LOT of driver/wedge combinations being played.

[PMookie]

My position will always be the same: do whatever you want, PGA, but the USGA and R&A don’t need to get silly and rollback the amateur. What the top 1% can do with a ball has ZERO correlation to the other 99%.

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, fixyurdivot said:

So let's ask the question "at what point would increased hitting lengths make the game a yawner"?  Would a large majority of balls rolling onto par 4 greens or aprons off the tee, or second shots on par 5's, be the game you want to watch?  I for one certainly wouldn't.  For my tastes, it would make the game too one dimensional.  Sure bomb drives are fun to watch.  So are home runs in baseball.  But if advances in physical condition or technology suddenly had every other batter swatting balls over the fence, that would be boring to me.  I guess I just like the traditions of these sports.

It's really a sticky wicket.  If you grow the fairway grass to suppress the long drivers but allow the short hitters to roll out close to their drives, is that fair?  8000 yard courses likewise presents a challenge in that the majority of the tour players who aren't long hitters are now penalized.  The Podcast group mentions that the "bomb & wedge" is not true - that in fact many more second shots require mid iron/hybrid clubs.  I haven't seen the data on that, but while watching many events on TV, it sure seems like a LOT of driver/wedge combinations being played.

If the fairways are grown out and decreases roll out for the longer drivers It’s going to do the same for the shorter drivers. Unless someone is hitting a stinger type shot their ball isn’t going to magically go longer while someone else’s goes shorter 

[THEZIPR23]

1 hour ago, fixyurdivot said:

So let's ask the question "at what point would increased hitting lengths make the game a yawner"?  Would a large majority of balls rolling onto par 4 greens or aprons off the tee, or second shots on par 5's, be the game you want to watch?  I for one certainly wouldn't.  For my tastes, it would make the game too one dimensional.  Sure bomb drives are fun to watch.  So are home runs in baseball.  But if advances in physical condition or technology suddenly had every other batter swatting balls over the fence, that would be boring to me.  I guess I just like the traditions of these sports.

It's really a sticky wicket.  If you grow the fairway grass to suppress the long drivers but allow the short hitters to roll out close to their drives, is that fair?  8000 yard courses likewise presents a challenge in that the majority of the tour players who aren't long hitters are now penalized.  The Podcast group mentions that the "bomb & wedge" is not true - that in fact many more second shots require mid iron/hybrid clubs.  I haven't seen the data on that, but while watching many events on TV, it sure seems like a LOT of driver/wedge combinations being played.

Here is the data. It is way more balanced than you would think. In fact it is more balanced than my game at my home club. 

Going to make a rambling of a post. 

First rolling back the ball 20% is just an insane number. Jack and Colin are just grumpy old men. They both hit it longer with less technology than what they want to roll the ball to. Just doesn't make any sense. 

Second Sasho Mckenzie and others believe that somewhere between 190-200 MPH ball speed is about as fast as you can hit it and still maintain enough accuracy to play on tour. If that is truly the case BAD is there already, so is there more in the tank? Yes he will be able to get over 200 but I don't think that will be anywhere near his average when playing in a tourney.

Third I just don't see USGA & R & A doing a roll back, maybe some sort of limit but not a roll back. Too much investment in the amateur game. 

Fourth in order to roll back a ball you have to convince manufacturers to create a ball, manufacture it, and then get no money for doing so. Not going to happen. When is the last time a pro paid for golf balls?

Fifth so if that is the case then the PGA would have to produce and manufacture a ball for the tour. Possible but highly unlikely, just a money pit with no way out. 

Sixth has anyone currently playing on tour said the ball goes too far?? Most quotes I saw were amazed at what Bryson is doing. 

So what is the answer? I believe that it is a combo of things.  Growing the grass is a portion of it. Not positive but I think I saw the rough at Harbour Town was cut less than an inch high. The difference between .5" and 1.5" is huge. I think a ball created with a ball speed limit will be the real answer. 190MPH max or whatever # they chose. If designed correctly it would limit the top guys and not affect slower swing speeds. 

[aerospace_ray]

The PGA bottom line is making money. People want to see the men/women professionals going for green in two on par 5's and I heard a commentator years ago say something like "birdies sell".....

I personally don't want to turn tv on see a six way tie with players at -23 under par but at same time I don't want +3 over par with the leader board. A fine line I know. I am sure the brains that run the tour would say everyone wants their cake and to eat it to. Just desire a quality setup that rewards good shots regardless of distance and penalizes the bad.

So I like the previous comments in this thread regarding grow the rough, fairways, etc to try and see what happens. Complicated subject with as many pro's as con's.

[fixyurdivot]

6 hours ago, PMookie said:

My position will always be the same: do whatever you want, PGA, but the USGA and R&A don’t need to get silly and rollback the amateur. What the top 1% can do with a ball has ZERO correlation to the other 99%.

Totally agree. 

[BADFanBoi Scotty]

5 hours ago, THEZIPR23 said:

Here is the data. It is way more balanced than you would think. In fact it is more balanced than my game at my home club. 

 

To act as the negative, Lou's data (75% of second shots on Par 4s 174y or less) means Bryson is hitting PW or less (Looking at stock distances image from Golf TV . Par 4s tend to be at least half of golf holes. Are we happy with the wedge in on 7 holes, plus maybe the par 3s? So we are looking at a long iron on maybe 5 holes.

From that perspective, are we happy with those numbers? Or is that the point where 'golf becomes boring'?

[RickyBobby_PR]

13 minutes ago, Green Sheep Productions said:

To act as the negative, Lou's data (75% of second shots on Par 4s 174y or less) means Bryson is hitting PW or less (Looking at stock distances image from Golf TV . Par 4s tend to be at least half of golf holes. Are we happy with the wedge in on 7 holes, plus maybe the par 3s? So we are looking at a long iron on maybe 5 holes.

From that perspective, are we happy with those numbers? Or is that the point where 'golf becomes boring'?

Bryson while he maybe hit a pitching wedge that far pros tend to not hit full shots into greens especially with scores clubs. 

[THEZIPR23]

10 minutes ago, Green Sheep Productions said:

To act as the negative, Lou's data (75% of second shots on Par 4s 174y or less) means Bryson is hitting PW or less (Looking at stock distances image from Golf TV . Par 4s tend to be at least half of golf holes. Are we happy with the wedge in on 7 holes, plus maybe the par 3s? So we are looking at a long iron on maybe 5 holes.

From that perspective, are we happy with those numbers? Or is that the point where 'golf becomes boring'?

I thought 9 iron was 175? Which is a 7 iron based on traditional lofts. Regardless it doesn't matter what is stamped on the bottom of the club. 

The separation between long and short hitters will always be there and always has been. 

 

What type of balance would you like to see?

 

Full disclosure I think watching golf has been boring for years. 

[fixyurdivot]

2 minutes ago, Green Sheep Productions said:

To act as the negative, Lou's data (75% of second shots on Par 4s 174y or less) means Bryson is hitting PW or less (Looking at stock distances image from Golf TV . Par 4s tend to be at least half of golf holes. Are we happy with the wedge in on 7 holes, plus maybe the par 3s? So we are looking at a long iron on maybe 5 holes.

From that perspective, are we happy with those numbers? Or is that the point where 'golf becomes boring'?

Yeah, that many pros players now hit wedges 160+ yards is contributing to the driver & wedge tour comment.  

6 hours ago, THEZIPR23 said:

Jack and Colin are just grumpy old men.

I disagree. They just feel the tradition of the game is getting skewed and some changes should be made.  Also, it isn't just Jack and Colin.

https://www.cbssports.com/golf/news/tiger-woods-speaks-on-rolling-back-golf-balls-bifurcation-for-pros-and-amateurs/

6 hours ago, THEZIPR23 said:

Sixth has anyone currently playing on tour said the ball goes too far?? Most quotes I saw were amazed at what Bryson is doing.

You still haven't answered my question "at what point does increased hitting distance make it a yawner?"  Not saying it is going to happen, but follow this trend to its logical conclusion and it does change the game.  For some that's an issue, for others it's not.  

[THEZIPR23]

2 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

Yeah, that many pros players now hit wedges 160+ yards is contributing to the driver & wedge tour comment.  

I disagree. They just feel the tradition of the game is getting skewed and some changes should be made.  Also, it isn't just Jack and Colin.

https://www.cbssports.com/golf/news/tiger-woods-speaks-on-rolling-back-golf-balls-bifurcation-for-pros-and-amateurs/

You still haven't answered my question "at what point does increased hitting distance make it a yawner?"  Not saying it is going to happen, but follow this trend to its logical conclusion and it does change the game.  For some that's an issue, for others it's not.  

If you ask me it has been a yawner for years, so I can't answer that question.

Every single sport has changed. Many way more than golf. It is inevitable and it will continue to happen. Golf has actually been one of the slowest to change. You made a comment about home runs, not sure if you have watched baseball in the last couple of years but they have been shattering home run records every year. 

There is a breaking point somewhere in golf due to the limits of the courses, that is different from other sports. IMO we are probably only 1 generation away from the breaking point. So yes there will probably have to be something that changes. What do you propose they do?

 

[yungkory]

7 hours ago, PMookie said:

My position will always be the same: do whatever you want, PGA, but the USGA and R&A don’t need to get silly and rollback the amateur. What the top 1% can do with a ball has ZERO correlation to the other 99%.

This. I'm not going to enjoy golf if I start hitting it shorter. I'm not particularly long (that's what she said) to begin with, don't need help making the game harder.

[GolfSpy BOS]

I don’t really want to roll the ball back. And I’m not for bifurcation either.

Besides growing the grass maybe they could look into limiting shaft length? It could lip off some speed and should result in players hitting down a little more. And it would allow OEMs to continue to innovate within current maximums and probably help amateurs be more accurate too.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[fixyurdivot]

33 minutes ago, THEZIPR23 said:

What do you propose they do?

I will take an aggressive wait and see approach to this issue .  I do find the topic pretty interesting and hope they can come up with a workable solution.  I say that, because I love watching the game almost as much as playing it.  I also feel that I would become bored with the game if it became too one dimensional.  I like using all my clubs... I paid damn good money for them .  Another example is fly fishing.  I would find the sport/hobby boring if the catching was brain dead simple... at least most of the time.

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, fixyurdivot said:

Yeah, that many pros players now hit wedges 160+ yards is contributing to the driver & wedge tour comment.  

I disagree. They just feel the tradition of the game is getting skewed and some changes should be made.  Also, it isn't just Jack and Colin.

https://www.cbssports.com/golf/news/tiger-woods-speaks-on-rolling-back-golf-balls-bifurcation-for-pros-and-amateurs/

You still haven't answered my question "at what point does increased hitting distance make it a yawner?"  Not saying it is going to happen, but follow this trend to its logical conclusion and it does change the game.  For some that's an issue, for others it's not.  

Jack is a course designer and has to needs people to have lots of land for him to build his courses and that’s becoming harder so he has to call for the ball to be rolled back but the even more interesting part is that jack also had a golf ball company and he wasnt trying to roll them back. So what is it? Should the ball be rolled back or not? Jack can’t have his cake and eat it too. Jack didn’t have problem over powering courses in his day and wasn’t calling for equipment to be changed because he was hitting past everyone.

Same goes for tiger being a course design and his call for ball roll back. 

 

[Chizzle]

Another great NPG episode.  Just a few things.

1) I dont think balls need to be rolled back

2) I dont agree with bifurcation

3) the thing I dont like the most about this whole thing is that it's based on 1 tour player.  They fussed over Rory but that dust settled until Bryson.  Bryson may have influenced a younger generation to try and do what he does but like they mentioned in NPG, he is probably one of the best and and one of the MOST consistent ball strikers on tour.  At those swing speeds, a fraction of a millimeter off and the ball is gone.  Simply put, he is an elite athlete=freak of nature.  

4) Bryson didnt win.

5) I'm fine with older courses not being in play on tour.  Selfishly, I would love it if pebble beach prices dropped.

6) if they throw everything in reverse as far as technology for distance, I think golf would lose a lot of golfers.  I agree with the idea of growing the grass.  It's simple, doesnt cost any extra money, and if it works problem solved

Lastly, golf is and has been pretty boring to watch.  As far as a better viewing experience (this was mention in NPG about tiger, phil, peyton, and tom) golf needs to change up how they televise.  It never dawned on me but when adam said its ridiculous when commentators whisper on Putts when they are miles away from that green, I laughed so hard. Not apart of the subject but it was a question asked so thought I'd throw it in.

[Middler]

On 6/23/2020 at 10:10 AM, fixyurdivot said:

So let's ask the question "at what point would increased hitting lengths make the game a yawner"?  Would a large majority of balls rolling onto par 4 greens or aprons off the tee, or second shots on par 5's, be the game you want to watch?  I for one certainly wouldn't.  For my tastes, it would make the game too one dimensional.  Sure bomb drives are fun to watch.  So are home runs in baseball.  But if advances in physical condition or technology suddenly had every other batter swatting balls over the fence, that would be boring to me.  I guess I just like the traditions of these sports.

It's really a sticky wicket.  If you grow the fairway grass to suppress the long drivers but allow the short hitters to roll out close to their drives, is that fair?  8000 yard courses likewise presents a challenge in that the majority of the tour players who aren't long hitters are now penalized.  The Podcast group mentions that the "bomb & wedge" is not true - that in fact many more second shots require mid iron/hybrid clubs.  I haven't seen the data on that, but while watching many events on TV, it sure seems like a LOT of driver/wedge combinations being played.

I like your opening question. But unlike you(?), the distances they're hitting today haven't made the game (more of) a yawner to me - yet. [Slow play in general and taking forever to putt bother me a LOT more] It's fun to watch the big guns hit long drives. But I am just as impressed when they stick a long iron as I am when they stick a wedge - because I know who hard it is (for me) to do, so I appreciate watching people that have mastered the game.

I do think the USGA and R&A need to try to do everything they can to stop distance increases from here on though, at some point it does become too much.

I don't support growing fairway grass. I've been a supporter of growing the grass in the rough and narrowing the fairways out where the really long hitters land (300 yds+?). That way short knockers still have wide fairways at least.

[Kansas King]

I think the PGA Tour is in a tough position regarding length. I'm not fond of the PGA tour holding back players but it's also noteworthy the MLB doesn't let their players use metal bats. My fear with the growing length of several players on the PGA tour is actually similar to NASCAR in an odd way. NASCAR leveled the playing field several years ago in term of car performance and I think the series suffered as a result. Ultra-long hitters on the PGA tour that overpower a course presents a similar situation where hitting every par 5 in two and having wedges in every par 4 significantly levels the playing field and makes it difficult for any player to stand out. It's unlikely anyone will run away with a 10 stroke victory with the current situation.

I personally like the idea of tightening up courses and giving players a bigger risk/reward scenario. I don't want the courses to be unfair or set up to make players play to par. Make the fairways a little tighter, rough longer, etc. You don't have to put pins one yard from the edge of the green or have greens reading 15 on the stimp meter. Putting isn't the problem. If Bryson is hitting 400 yard bombs accurately, then he deserves to run away with a tournament.

Moral of the story: set up the course a little tighter and/or with longer rough and let the players go score. It will add some much needed variability into the game that give more players a chance to win.

[RickyBobby_PR]

3 hours ago, Kansas King said:

I think the PGA Tour is in a tough position regarding length. I'm not fond of the PGA tour holding back players but it's also noteworthy the MLB doesn't let their players use metal bats. My fear with the growing length of several players on the PGA tour is actually similar to NASCAR in an odd way. NASCAR leveled the playing field several years ago in term of car performance and I think the series suffered as a result. Ultra-long hitters on the PGA tour that overpower a course presents a similar situation where hitting every par 5 in two and having wedges in every par 4 significantly levels the playing field and makes it difficult for any player to stand out. It's unlikely anyone will run away with a 10 stroke victory with the current situation.

I personally like the idea of tightening up courses and giving players a bigger risk/reward scenario. I don't want the courses to be unfair or set up to make players play to par. Make the fairways a little tighter, rough longer, etc. You don't have to put pins one yard from the edge of the green or have greens reading 15 on the stimp meter. Putting isn't the problem. If Bryson is hitting 400 yard bombs accurately, then he deserves to run away with a tournament.

Moral of the story: set up the course a little tighter and/or with longer rough and let the players go score. It will add some much needed variability into the game that give more players a chance to win.

Metal bats arent used in the major leagues or pro level because of safety not to control home runs

[2puttbogey]

I watch the PGA tour for entertainment, and the LPGA for golf (ok some of the ladies too).

[Quigleyd]

On 6/25/2020 at 4:51 PM, RickyBobby_PR said:

Metal bats arent used in the major leagues or pro level because of safety not to control home runs

But, dont you think there would be more home runs if you used metal bats? have you ever played on a beer league soft ball team? They have limits on the number of home runs you can hit other wise that is all they would do. 

I don't disagree that a roll back is probably not needed though. But, if the MLB had aluminum bats there would be a 90+ home run year by someone. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

5 minutes ago, Quigleyd said:

But, dont you think there would be more home runs if you used metal bats? have you ever played on a beer league soft ball team? They have limits on the number of home runs you can hit other wise that is all they would do. 

I don't disagree that a roll back is probably not needed though. But, if the MLB had aluminum bats there would be a 90+ home run year by someone. 

I’ve played in various levels of softball from a beer league to military base teams. that included limited home runs as well as playing with a limited flight ball. Also played in both wood bat and aluminum bat baseball. 
 

Aluminum bats are by far superiors in getting more pop off the bat including non sweetspot hits but for infielders it’s far more dangerous at the amateur level that it would require lots of changes at the pro level to protect the players, even if they put in limited home run rule it’s not a viable pro option

[Stevens24]

The first issue to address is fairway roll. I have no problem with 300-320 yard carries. What gets crazy is those carries and then 35-40 yards of roll. I have never played a course set up with that much roll during regular play. More penal rough off of the fairway and around the greens. 

PGA pro's are going to score and a winning score of -15 to 20 for a regular tournament is fine. 

[Tsecor]

make courses harder, not longer.....put a lake 300 yards out...make the rough 12" deep.....put trees in the way....stop with the 600 yard hole that is straight as an arrow.....make these guys into premiere shot makers, not just long drive champions.....the PGA is weak....the golfers of today are BORING.....make them earn every par.....