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New OB rules

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Sounds to me like the answer is YES he most definitely dropped in a fashion not allowed by the rules - Several hundred yards in all likelihood.

Unless someone saw it travel out of bounds it would most likely be considered to be in the hazard.  

Thus the point of entry would be much further back.  If scenario is understood correctly a ball would have to fly over the hazard area to reach the OB line. Thus in that case the drop would be further up. (but costing two strokes)   However it is not simply across from where he wants - which is what it seems this cat did.

So - you are correct - illegal. 

If that player is determined to say OB then it is two strokes.  In hazard - he could theoretically drop for only one stroke but much further back and not necessarily on the edge of the fairway but the edge of the hazard which may be yards of rough.

The rules don't seem all that big a deal to me regarding the changes. One thing is for sure - if you fear OB you should run up and drop and tack on two shots - count your blessings!

I've watched more than one person smack two or three O.B. in succession - in meaningful tourneys.

O.B. and LOST BALL should never only be penalize 1 shot! IMHO


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10 hours ago, aerospace_ray said:

Enjoyed reading these posts regarding rules. Is there a video(s) series demonstrating these rules?

I would like to see the rules demonstrated in some areas. Just one of my learning styles.

Any references to videos appreciated. 

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules-hub/rules-modernization/major-changes/golfs-new-rules-stroke-and-distance.html

That's for the New (Optional) Local Rule.  The next one is for a bunch of tutorials for the major rules changes for 2019:

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/rules-hub/rules-modernization/major-changes/major-changes.html

 

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On 6/24/2020 at 1:31 PM, gavinski91 said:

 

As an example, consider this hole at a local course in my area. 375 yard par 4 from the white tees, with a 130 yard forced carry - for just about any amateur the hole requires a driver off the tee. Fairway is about 100 feet wide. Down the entire right side of the fairway is water, down the entire left side is OB. With the current rules, a right-handed player who hits a slice that bounces off the fairway and out takes a 1 stroke penalty and a drop. If their playing partner hits a hook that bounces off the fairway and out they take a 2 stroke penalty and a drop. Both players missed the fairway, so they should both be penalized. But why are we penalizing one more than the other?

I agree with almost everything you said here but I can TRY to give a reasoning to a more severe penalty.  OB in many cases is near houses so the course might want to protect those houses.  Making a more severe  penalty might be the only way to offer that protection. 

With that said though, my entire playing life (before keeping a handicap), I've treated OB as red and so does almost everyone I've ever played with. Kind of makes the "more severe penalty" theory a bit moot. 

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29 minutes ago, den748 said:

With that said though, my entire playing life (before keeping a handicap), I've treated OB as red and so does almost everyone I've ever played with. Kind of makes the "more severe penalty" theory a bit moot. 

In my view, the Rules are aimed at people who want to actually play in accordance with the Rules.  For those who don't really care, or specifically choose not to play by the Rules, there's not much the Ruling Bodies can do.  

For those who are interested, there's a discussion of the history of the OB penalties here:

http://ruleshistory.com/lost.html

In essence, the OB issue didn't really start to be considered until the late 1800s, before that it was apparently treated exactly the same as a lost ball.  For most of the history of golf (not all), a lost ball was penalized by stroke and distance.  If you don't know where the ball is, when the only absolute "known" is where you were previously, it made sense to use that known location as the location to put your next ball into play.  The penalty stroke is important, so that you don't "lose" your ball when its apparently in an unfortunate spot in order to avoid playing from that spot.  

What is a ball when its OB, if its not "lost"?  I can fully accept that the penalty is the same in both cases.

Another reference for those interested, I highly recommend this little 80-page book:

https://www.usgapublications.com/products/principles-behind-the-rules-of-golf-paperback-2016-edition?variant=25702107654

There are great discussions about the reasons for different levels of penalties, reasons that certain conditions allow free relief, its just an interesting read for those who want to learn more about the Rules of Golf.

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8 hours ago, den748 said:

With that said though, my entire playing life (before keeping a handicap), I've treated OB as red and so does almost everyone I've ever played with. Kind of makes the "more severe penalty" theory a bit moot. 

I get your point.  If most of my rounds were played a certain way then I wouldn't see the big deal.

However, it is a fundamental aspect of the game - penalty for hitting exactly where you are not allowed to and being penalized enough to differentiate from those who did not do so.

I'm sure you realize that just because a segment of people ignore a certain rule - does not, in and of itself, deem it moot. 

Itsy bit moot .... ok, maybe🧐


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As someone who hits it into OB regularly, I fully understand why it’s a 2 stroke penalty, but I’ve always been confused as to where to drop. Specifically, if my tee shot never realistically was ever traveling over an in bounds area. I’ve always taken the 2 shot penalty and re-tee’d, and was confused by playing partners telling me to,
“take the distance”
- I was always like, “what distance” lol: ball was OB before it flew 20 yards


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On 7/2/2020 at 9:21 AM, DaveP043 said:

I'm not sure what you mean by the second bold part, but you CAN return to the tee if your ball is lost or OB.   I agree, its always best to hit a provisional if there's a reasonable possibility that the ball is lost or OB, to save the long walk back. 

No you cannot. If the Local Rule regarding a Lost Ball is in place - 2 stroke penalty, drop the ball on the fairway within 2 clubs lengths no closer the pin then the rule states

You cannot search for your ball and then decide to return to the tee and play a provisional ball. You must declare your intention to play one before you go forward,
from the tee. Once you proceed forward from the tee, you forfeit any right to put a provisional ball into play.

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11 minutes ago, Firebird said:

No you cannot. If the Local Rule regarding a Lost Ball is in place - 2 stroke penalty, drop the ball on the fairway within 2 clubs lengths no closer the pin then the rule states

You cannot search for your ball and then decide to return to the tee and play a provisional ball. You must declare your intention to play one before you go forward,
from the tee. Once you proceed forward from the tee, you forfeit any right to put a provisional ball into play.

Where is that from? 8B8A775B-81B4-4806-8275-2E781157786B.jpeg.1998593305cca9cc1b9e04af35b81a2d.jpeg

 


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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Firebird said:

No you cannot. If the Local Rule regarding a Lost Ball is in place - 2 stroke penalty, drop the ball on the fairway within 2 clubs lengths no closer the pin then the rule states

You cannot search for your ball and then decide to return to the tee and play a provisional ball. You must declare your intention to play one before you go forward,
from the tee. Once you proceed forward from the tee, you forfeit any right to put a provisional ball into play.

You're right, you can't go back and hit a provisional once you start looking.  That's part of the basic rules, not Local Rule E5.  However, you CAN take the stroke and distance penalty, which means going back and playing your third stroke from the tee.  And @THEZIPR23 beat me to it.

Edit, I was wrong, you can go back and hit a provisional even after a search has started under the basic rules. 18.3a/2.  I'm  not sure where the wording that @Firebird has quoted comes from, it's not in the text of E-5 either.

Second edit, you cannot use E-5 for your original shot if you have played a provisional.  But you CAN go back and hit a provisional after the search has started. 

Third edit (hopefully the last), E-5 allows a Relief Area that extends 2 clublengths into the fairway, but also includes a potentially large area extending to the Reference point (where the ball is thought to be lost, or crossed the OB line).  You're not required to drop in the fairway.

Edited by DaveP043
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Personally I would like to see this optional local rule become a normal rule that is acceptable for handicap qualifying club comps and supplementary cards.  My club has chosen not to officially adopt it, to avoid any potential confusion.  But it was also stated that if you use it when playing casually with friends then it's not a problem (it's no different to whatever other minor infringements that get overlooked when just playing for fun or practicing, and it can help avoid slow play issues).

I can understand why it is not an official/normal rule, especially for 'elite' level play, but perhaps making it acceptable, but with an 'opt out' option, would be a better way forward.

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On 7/2/2020 at 4:23 PM, Micah T said:

As someone who hits it into OB regularly, I fully understand why it’s a 2 stroke penalty, but I’ve always been confused as to where to drop. Specifically, if my tee shot never realistically was ever traveling over an in bounds area. I’ve always taken the 2 shot penalty and re-tee’d, and was confused by playing partners telling me to,
“take the distance”
- I was always like, “what distance” lol: ball was OB before it flew 20 yards


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Well in the case you describe it probably makes sense to simply re-tee but for many OB shots, the new rule can be a better option - principally because it significantly reduces the chance you hit another OB from the tee.  Mesa Del Sol (Yuma) has OB on both sides of fairways on well over half the track (residential golf community).  A couple holes in particular have waist high walls down most of the length.  A good number of pulled shots will run down the length of the wall, on compact dirt, before rolling OB. Rather than having to try again from the tee, players can drop where the wall ends and now have a clear shot to the green. This reduces a ton of anxiety for higher handicap players and, in a good many cases,  helps their score.

 

1 hour ago, Pandaman said:

Personally I would like to see this optional local rule become a normal rule that is acceptable for handicap qualifying club comps and supplementary cards.

I agree.  Not only are many casual players still confused in applying the "new rule", but add to that the question as to applicability at a course, makes it worse. 

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On 7/3/2020 at 9:53 AM, THEZIPR23 said:

Where is that from? 8B8A775B-81B4-4806-8275-2E781157786B.jpeg.1998593305cca9cc1b9e04af35b81a2d.jpeg

 

I will need to go look or ask Gerard (PGA Rule Official). I was part of a discussion group when the new rules were being hashed out and the reasoning was behind them was to speed up play. Hence the reason for reducing 5 to 3 min to look for the ball and the new lost ball rule.  If you then could not find your ball the last thing they wanted was that you then had to waste even more time by going back to the where you hit your last shot hence this ruling.

They remember that they were both to be local rules and went hand in hand. They were not meant to be used in Professional of Elite Amateur Comps.

 


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