Decade golf app - my 6 month journey

[GolfSpy AFG]

5 minutes ago, analyticandrew said:

Definitely mind-blowing for sure. Some of the stats that Lou Stagner puts out there on twitter about managing your expectations have literally changed the way that I approach the game.

This is one that I remember literally every time I have a 120-130 shot: 
"From 123-yards in the fairway, PGA Tour Players are more likely to hit it OUTSIDE 30-feet than they are to hit it inside 10-feet."

So me hitting a gap wedge or flighted PW to 30-40' I should actually feel REALLY GOOD ABOUT.

YES!  Love these inputs from Lou and Scott.  I spent a lot of time beating myself at being 20 feet away in this situation, probably from too much stock on some of the nonsense coming from Azinger and crew....

[MaxEntropy]

1 hour ago, Getoffmylawn said:

YES!  Love these inputs from Lou and Scott.  I spent a lot of time beating myself at being 20 feet away in this situation, probably from too much stock on some of the nonsense coming from Azinger and crew....

Same. They are great follows on Twitter. Azinger and his ilk don't help, as you mentioned, but who we see on a weekly basis probably doesn't help either. We always see the guys who are "on" any given week, so whoever they are, they are playing at the tail of the distribution, in general and knocking more shots closer than average. At least that's my take.

[Kitsu]

So after reading this thread back in November I bought Lowest Score Wins. The book is great! I enjoy the Hack It Out podcast as well and they talk about Decade a lot. Anyways the two course management systems seem very similar. Really the only difference I see is that LSW uses you dispersion circles and Decade used distance triangles. But they seem to come to the same conclusion. Anyone care to elaborate if there is anything I’m missing? I was considering the foundations course, to get a decision map for my home course, but I don’t know if it would be anything that I haven’t read or heard in LSW. 

[cnosil]

37 minutes ago, Kitsu said:

So after reading this thread back in November I bought Lowest Score Wins. The book is great! I enjoy the Hack It Out podcast as well and they talk about Decade a lot. Anyways the two course management systems seem very similar. Really the only difference I see is that LSW uses you dispersion circles and Decade used distance triangles. But they seem to come to the same conclusion. Anyone care to elaborate if there is anything I’m missing? I was considering the foundations course, to get a decision map for my home course, but I don’t know if it would be anything that I haven’t read or heard in LSW. 

How does LSW determine your target on greens?    That is probably the big difference since DECADE doesn't use dispersion circles,  it uses distance from the hole.  

 

[Kitsu]

15 minutes ago, cnosil said:

How does LSW determine your target on greens?    That is probably the big difference since DECADE doesn't use dispersion circles,  it uses distance from the hole.  

 

Pretty much you aim for the center or biggest part of the green, while trying to keep penalties/traps out of your circle as much as possible. 

[cnosil]

Just now, Kitsu said:

Pretty much you aim for the center or biggest part of the green, while trying to keep penalties/traps out of your circle as much as possible. 

There is one difference.      

[Kitsu]

1 hour ago, cnosil said:

There is one difference.      

Care to elaborate? Most of what I know about decade is about your tee shot. I do t know much about the approach shot. 

Edited August 11, 2021 by Kitsu

[cnosil]

1 minute ago, Kitsu said:

Care to elaborate? Most of what I know about decade is about your tee shot. I do t know much about the approach shot. 

since that is a large part of what you pay for with DECADE I will only say that target a factor of how far you are from the hole.  the farther away more you put your shot pattern over the middle of the green.  

[Kitsu]

8 hours ago, cnosil said:

since that is a large part of what you pay for with DECADE I will only say that target a factor of how far you are from the hole.  the farther away more you put your shot pattern over the middle of the green.  

Still sounds pretty similar. The farther away you are from the green, the larger your dispersion circle will be, which means you’ll be aiming closer to the middle of the green. They could be saying the same thing, just wording it differently. LSW was published in 2014, so maybe Decade is an updated approach. I’m still not good enough for either system. But I’ve went from shooting in the 100s to shooting in the low 90s this year, mainly by using my driver off the tee and not laying up on approach shots. I might still give decade foundations a shot. 

Edited August 11, 2021 by Kitsu

[cnosil]

17 minutes ago, Kitsu said:

Still sounds pretty similar. The farther away you are from the green, the larger your dispersion circle will be, which means you’ll be aiming closer to the middle of the green. They could be saying the same thing, just wording it differently. LSW was published in 2014, so maybe Decade is an updated approach. I’m still not good enough for either system. But I’ve went from shooting in the 100s to shooting in the low 90s this year, mainly by using my driver off the tee and not laying up on approach shots. I might still give decade foundations a shot. 

Not saying the same thing.  DECADE doesn’t directly use dispersion circles on approach shots to the green.  The approach uses them as part of the math that you do to calculate and modify your target.  A PGA professional and a 25 handicap would have the same target from the same distance. 
 

but maybe they are close to the same thing,  might have to get a copy of the book to read.  

[DaveP043]

10 minutes ago, cnosil said:

but maybe they are close to the same thing,  might have to get a copy of the book to read.  

I've read LSW, but not used Decade, and I think you'd get value from LSW.  As you've decided, I don't think its appropriate to "give away" too many details of either system.  LSW uses essentially a visual system of assigning shades of gray to different portions of the course.  Your goal in deciding where to aim is to make your dispersion circle as white as possible, so its a graphical evaluation rather than a mathematical one.

14 minutes ago, cnosil said:

A PGA professional and a 25 handicap would have the same target from the same distance. 

This seems counter to information in Every Shot Counts, where higher-handicappers need to aim further from "danger" to optimize their long-term results.

[Kitsu]

4 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I've read LSW, but not used Decade, and I think you'd get value from LSW.  As you've decided, I don't think its appropriate to "give away" too many details of either system.  LSW uses essentially a visual system of assigning shades of gray to different portions of the course.  Your goal in deciding where to aim is to make your dispersion circle as white as possible, so its a graphical evaluation rather than a mathematical one.

This seems counter to information in Every Shot Counts, where higher-handicappers need to aim further from "danger" to optimize their long-term results.

Thank you! I think you summarized this up better than be. Both use strokes gained, just one is a visual approach and the other is a mathematical approach. 

[cnosil]

33 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

This seems counter to information in Every Shot Counts, where higher-handicappers need to aim further from "danger" to optimize their long-term results.

Haven’t read every shot counts and can only say that Scott references it a lot as a basis for the decision strategies.  With DECADE, you still need to understand your tendencies and aim away from danger.  This comes in with what Scott calls multipliers that alter where a player should aim based on the trouble and skill level.  From a targeting perspective,  Scott determined through evaluation that the difference in s*** pattern size really isn’t enough to alter the baseline strategy 

[GolfSpy AFG]

1 hour ago, Kitsu said:

I’m still not good enough for either system. 

Careful with this assumption.  Scott's not shy about saying that sometimes you just need to get better at golf, true, but you might consider how much of your scores are caused by technical/ball-striking issues, versus bad course management and mental game.  I personally have been struggling with my ball-striking for much of the season, but I'm getting much better scores than I might have pre-DECADE largely because I'm making much better decisions, and I'm doing a better job of not letting the bone-headed stuff stick with me.

The mental game and mindset coaching in DECADE is immensely valuable too, almost to the point that I feel like it's a bit of an oversimplification to say DECADE is simply course management training.  

[GolfSpy AFG]

9 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Haven’t read every shot counts and can only say that Scott references it a lot as a basis for the decision strategies.  With DECADE, you still need to understand your tendencies and aim away from danger.  This comes in with what Scott calls multipliers that alter where a player should aim based on the trouble and skill level.  From a targeting perspective,  Scott determined through evaluation that the difference in s*** pattern size really isn’t enough to alter the baseline strategy 

Additionally, if a less-accomplished player with a wider dispersion pattern were to take a more conservative target than the DECADE math prescribes, they're actually likely to bring more trouble into play on the other extreme of that dispersion pattern.  

[cnosil]

Just adding it to this thread,  but if you want to understand a little more about DECADE, Scott was this weeks guest on No Putts Given.   

[Kitsu]

2 hours ago, Getoffmylawn said:

Careful with this assumption.  Scott's not shy about saying that sometimes you just need to get better at golf, true, but you might consider how much of your scores are caused by technical/ball-striking issues, versus bad course management and mental game.  I personally have been struggling with my ball-striking for much of the season, but I'm getting much better scores than I might have pre-DECADE largely because I'm making much better decisions, and I'm doing a better job of not letting the bone-headed stuff stick with me.

The mental game and mindset coaching in DECADE is immensely valuable too, almost to the point that I feel like it's a bit of an oversimplification to say DECADE is simply course management training.  

It’s more or so that I don’t have a consistent shot pattern/swing yet. I really need to practice more, but generally I will opt to play 9 vs going to the range. Generally I try to see after the first 2 holes where my shot are going and then adjust my aim from there. But walking up to the first tee box, I can’t tell you which way it’s going to go. I think it’s based on how hard I swing. If I swing hard I’ll go right, and I swing slow I go left. 
 

Since finally getting a real driver, I’m often leaving myself 120yds or less to the green. And from there it’ll take me 4-5 shots to get it in the hole. So I know I need to work on my short game, 2 chips have been killing me lately. 

[BMart519]

6 minutes ago, Kitsu said:

It’s more or so that I don’t have a consistent shot pattern/swing yet. I really need to practice more, but generally I will opt to play 9 vs going to the range. Generally I try to see after the first 2 holes where my shot are going and then adjust my aim from there. But walking up to the first tee box, I can’t tell you which way it’s going to go. I think it’s based on how hard I swing. If I swing hard I’ll go right, and I swing slow I go left. 
 

Since finally getting a real driver, I’m often leaving myself 120yds or less to the green. And from there it’ll take me 4-5 shots to get it in the hole. So I know I need to work on my short game, 2 chips have been killing me lately. 

I own a copy of LSW and have a 6 month Decade membership. The dispersion circle concept is the same in Decade, except it is shown at the end of the cone for tee shots. The major difference is LSW doesn't talk about specific widths of your dispersion circle. The most specific numbers are the penalty buffers which are either 5/10 or 10/20 yard offsets from later hazards/OB. 

If you are not going to put the effort in to spend hours on a launch monitor with all or half the clubs in your bag to calculate your dispersion circles with each club, there will be less value in the specific approach strategy to Decade and the LSW approach will get you 80-90% of the way there in terms of strategy. A big aspect is learning where the center of your dispersion circle is relative to your aim: if your shots finish on average 10 yards right with long irons and 20 yards right with driver, do you know that number and are you taking it into account with your aim on each shot. If you slice driver 30 yards, you might need to aim at the edge of water on the left or within the "penalty buffer" from LSW. 

That said, there is tons of valuable info, videos, and tools in the Decade app and subscription from putting and range drills to mental game scorecards, etc. I would say the 6 month membership (which often gets discounted) provided more value at 3-5x costs of the LSW book. Even seeing the practice stations that Scott uses to maintain his skill level as a +5 handicap is helpful to improving your game. I've read multiple books Scott has suggested as well as subscribed to the Waking Up meditation app on his recommendation. 

[Chillyinminny]

As a  Minnesota golfer who maybes gets to golf through October, is it worth it to start the Decade app stuff now and have the last 3 months of stuff be winter work, off course?  Can you advance ahead in the app faster than a month at a time?

[BMart519]

3 minutes ago, Chillyinminny said:

As a  Minnesota golfer who maybes gets to golf through October, is it worth it to start the Decade app stuff now and have the last 3 months of stuff be winter work, off course?  Can you advance ahead in the app faster than a month at a time?

Do it next year and start it 2 or 3 months before your season starts. More of the tracking and gameplay comes out in the last 3 months. 

[cnosil]

16 minutes ago, Chillyinminny said:

As a  Minnesota golfer who maybes gets to golf through October, is it worth it to start the Decade app stuff now and have the last 3 months of stuff be winter work, off course?  Can you advance ahead in the app faster than a month at a time?

Part of  me saysget the app early and review the content in detail.  In foundations the content is released slowly so you have weeks to review the videos multiple times and develop a deep understanding.  As mentioned being able to play does help with the month 3-6 stats but you can do them without the app.  Also, there are some tools to help with practicing so you would have some limitations if you can actually get to a course or practice facility. 

[Kitsu]

1 hour ago, BMart519 said:

I own a copy of LSW and have a 6 month Decade membership. The dispersion circle concept is the same in Decade, except it is shown at the end of the cone for tee shots. The major difference is LSW doesn't talk about specific widths of your dispersion circle. The most specific numbers are the penalty buffers which are either 5/10 or 10/20 yard offsets from later hazards/OB. 

If you are not going to put the effort in to spend hours on a launch monitor with all or half the clubs in your bag to calculate your dispersion circles with each club, there will be less value in the specific approach strategy to Decade and the LSW approach will get you 80-90% of the way there in terms of strategy. A big aspect is learning where the center of your dispersion circle is relative to your aim: if your shots finish on average 10 yards right with long irons and 20 yards right with driver, do you know that number and are you taking it into account with your aim on each shot. If you slice driver 30 yards, you might need to aim at the edge of water on the left or within the "penalty buffer" from LSW. 

That said, there is tons of valuable info, videos, and tools in the Decade app and subscription from putting and range drills to mental game scorecards, etc. I would say the 6 month membership (which often gets discounted) provided more value at 3-5x costs of the LSW book. Even seeing the practice stations that Scott uses to maintain his skill level as a +5 handicap is helpful to improving your game. I've read multiple books Scott has suggested as well as subscribed to the Waking Up meditation app on his recommendation. 

That makes sense. Thank you for your explanation! I think that I’ll give decade a go next season! Hopefully I will be able to get a launch monitor this Christmas. I’m looking forward to the new Garmin and Bushnell options to be released! I may reserve a bay at PGATSS on a rainy day until then. 

[CarlH]

OK all of you DECADE golf subscribers, how does one determine their shot pattern if they don't have access to a launch monitor?  Do you go out to a deserted hole and hit 20 balls with each club or do you use a more generic pattern as an assumption?  Just curious.

 I'm currently looking at the free month at the moment and considering doing the Foundation course (or maybe even just jump to the Elite).  On that note, anyone that has completed the full 6 months with Foundation, did you renew the Foundation subscription or did you upgrade to Elite or maybe after 6 months, just let it expire?  In retrospect, do you think going straight to Elite is a better option for any reason (yes, I know Foundation slows it down so it's not as overwhelming -- but beyond that?)

 

[cnosil]

1 hour ago, CarlH said:

OK all of you DECADE golf subscribers, how does one determine their shot pattern if they don't have access to a launch monitor?  Do you go out to a deserted hole and hit 20 balls with each club or do you use a more generic pattern as an assumption?  Just curious.

 I'm currently looking at the free month at the moment and considering doing the Foundation course (or maybe even just jump to the Elite).  On that note, anyone that has completed the full 6 months with Foundation, did you renew the Foundation subscription or did you upgrade to Elite or maybe after 6 months, just let it expire?  In retrospect, do you think going straight to Elite is a better option for any reason (yes, I know Foundation slows it down so it's not as overwhelming -- but beyond that?)

 

I did the free month and then the 6 month foundation.   I let it expire after the 6 months.  While he continually adds to the app,  I felt 6 months was good for what I wanted at the current time.  I didn't do elite because I don't believe the additional details are what I need.  If I signed up again it would be to learn whatever new features he has added.

As for the dispersion patterns.  You don't need to really figure out your personal dispersion as DECADE is a strategy that is kind of one size fits all.  Understanding your dispersion is really only needed when dealing with penalty hazards.   What I would look at is the combines which helps you determine your  tendencies so you can determine if you may need to make some of those types of decisions.   He talks about this in the latest episode of no putts given.  If you use the bigger pattern and move you aim to avoid the hazard you probably bring other trouble into play which could make it more penal that hitting into the hazard that you are avoiding. 

[Ewald Beukes]

Hi all,

currently on the free foundations and looking to upgrade to either elite or full foundations. Can anyone comment of if / where in the program generic shot patterns (dispersions) are discussed?

In much of Scotts content he alludes to geberic shot patterns and that roughly 1 college players 7iron dispersion is similiar to anothers so little benefit in getting on trackman with each club.

 

Anyone have some insight? In the interim I have used what I can find from trackman data and extrapolated that over my clubs for a fair baseline to work from…

[cnosil]

19 minutes ago, Ewald Beukes said:

Hi all,

currently on the free foundations and looking to upgrade to either elite or full foundations. Can anyone comment of if / where in the program generic shot patterns (dispersions) are discussed?

In much of Scotts content he alludes to geberic shot patterns and that roughly 1 college players 7iron dispersion is similiar to anothers so little benefit in getting on trackman with each club.

 

Anyone have some insight? In the interim I have used what I can find from trackman data and extrapolated that over my clubs for a fair baseline to work from…

How much detail do you want to track.   Elite contains all the same videos of foundations, you just get them all at once.  What elite adds is a significant amount of data tracking and weakness identification.   
 

the shot patterns are discussed in about month 3 of the foundations program.  You would use something like trackman to learn your tendencies and not you dispersion pattern.  It may be bigger than a PGA player or elite college player but fundamentally adjusting to the larger pattern you have doesn’t really serve a purpose to lower scores 

[GregGarner]

Juuuuust now getting caught up on all the posts...

Played in a Mid-Am qualifier last week and WOW it is so much easier to implement DECADE strategy when you have pin sheets! Quick example was #13. Pin sheet had the flag 6 from the left. My playing partner's drive was basically right next to mine. He fired at the flag and pulled it into rough left. I did the math and aimed right of the pin (~7y). Incidentally, I hit it exactly where I was aimed and had about 19 feet to the flag. The other guy was able to chop out and scramble for par and I happened to make the putt. Walking off the green he says, "are you a DECADE guy? You played that really well. I knew I shouldn't have fired at the flag and I did anyways."

Yeah, yeah, I know, you can still eyeball it without pin sheets, but in terms of calculating dispersion left/right/front/back, there are definitely some assumptions about what data you have and you definitely need to do your homework like he recommends!

[cnosil]

1 hour ago, greggarner said:

. Walking off the green he says, "are you a DECADE guy? You played that really well. I knew I shouldn't have fired at the flag and I did anyways."

Yeah, yeah, I know, you can still eyeball it without pin sheets, but in terms of calculating dispersion left/right/front/back, there are definitely some assumptions about what data you have and you definitely need to do your homework like he recommends!

So his mental scorecard wouldn't have been perfect on that hole.   Having the discipline to stick to the plan is key to playing well.   

Was listening to one of Scotts podcasts and he indicated that pin sheets are extremely helpful but gave some pointers that if you do google green mapping and establish landmarks you can figure things out without them.  

[GolfSpy AFG]

Has anyone moved up to DECADE Elite?  My Foundations membership will be up in a couple months and I’m considering upgrading; would be interested in anyone’s thoughts on the value of the upgrade.  Thanks.

[cnosil]

24 minutes ago, Getoffmylawn said:

Has anyone moved up to DECADE Elite?  My Foundations membership will be up in a couple months and I’m considering upgrading; would be interested in anyone’s thoughts on the value of the upgrade.  Thanks.

I let me subscription lapse after my 6 months.   If I were to start up again,  I'd probably just do foundations for the follow-up videos and new features.   Elite is a pretty detailed stat package designed to identify flaws in your game.  I still suck at the Tiger 5 and mental game so no reason for me to dig deeper.