Bryson's Wedges

[FrogginBullfish]

Bryson's been the talk of the Tour pretty much since the restart and for good measure. He's been inside the Top 8 in every event since the restart and going back his last 7 events including yesterday's win at the Rocket Mortgage.

 

A big talking point in yesterday's final round was Bryson's wedges and more specifically his use of graphite shafts in his wedges. Nick Faldo believes Bryson's troubles with the wedges would be solved by switching back to steel shafts. A notion which has been disputed by many in the industry including Tony from MGS and Ian Fraser from TXG.

 

I also dispute Faldo's assertion and would argue any issues with Bryson's short game stem more from the 7 iron length wedges than what shafts he's using. Particularly given that Bryson's LAGP Texas Rebar prototype shafts are by far the stiffest shafts on Tour and would be unplayable if made with steel.

 

What I think would provide the most benefit to Bryson's short game would be removing his 295 and 275 yard clubs from the graphic below and replacing them with a 285 yard club. This would give him the opportunity to put another specialist wedge in the bag that he could use for the more delicate shots around the greens. I'd suggest a 60° with moderate bounce and a versatile grind in a more standard length. In my opinion, this would allow him to maintain ONE length on full shots and more straightforward pitches but allow him to more comfortably handle the more demanding shots around the green.

 

I think this would also be a good way to demonstrate that his graphite shafts aren't the issue with his short game.

 

Curious what others think. I've had some rather close-minded discussions with individuals on Twitter after Faldo quote-tweeted me on the subject but I remain fascinated by what Bryson's doing as I have been since he joined the Tour.

 

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[RickyBobby_PR]

Pros bags are setup very carefully and each club in the bag serves a purpose. 
 

Strokes gained also say distance matters, why would he remove distance clubs for another wedge? 
 

Bryson admitted he didn’t play 18 holes of golf during the shutdown so he’s getting feel and everything back each week.

If you look at his stats they don’t indicate he needs to drop any club to add a specialty club. He hasn’t been out of if the top 10 since the waste management. He’s 2nd in scoring average and in the top in all of the pga tour season stats except driving accuracy. 

 

[FrogginBullfish]

Here's his SG stats on the year. He's already gaining significantly off the tee. Removing one of his two 3Ws isn't going to negatively impact his SG: Off The Tee. But looking at his SG: Around The Green, he's not losing shots but he's not really gaining either. That's where his game can be improved the most. Is he better off holding onto a 3W which doesn't really alter his off the tee statistics or adding a specialized wedge which could greatly improve his weakest area? I think he's better off going with the latter.

Pros bags are setup very carefully and each club in the bag serves a purpose. 
 
Strokes gained also say distance matters, why would he remove distance clubs for another wedge? 
 
Bryson admitted he didn’t play 18 holes of golf during the shutdown so he’s getting feel and everything back each week.
If you look at his stats they don’t indicate he needs to drop any club to add a specialty club. He hasn’t been out of if the top 10 since the waste management. He’s 2nd in scoring average and in the top in all of the pga tour season stats except driving accuracy. 
 

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[RickyBobby_PR]

2 minutes ago, FrogginBullfish said:

Here's his SG stats on the year. He's already gaining significantly off the tee. Removing one of his two 3Ws isn't going to negatively impact his SG: Off The Tee. But looking at his SG: Around The Green, he's not losing shots but he's not really gaining either. That's where his game can be improved the most. Is he better off holding onto a 3W which doesn't really alter his off the tee statistics or adding a specialized wedge which could greatly improve his weakest area? I think he's better off going with the latter.

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There’s courses and holes where he can hit driver. His bag is setup to allow him to hit it as far as he can which is his goal. Also with shotlink he has lots of shots that get counted incorrectly. Some of his drives that were close to the green get counted as an approach shot even though it was a drives. While strokes gained are a good way to see how a player is doing against the field and analysts and fans use them to talk stats, if you swipe over on that screen to the next slide those stats matter more to the players. There’s lots of stats on there that say his bag setup works just fine.
 

 

 

[FrogginBullfish]

You brought up SG in your first reply. His SG stats demonstrate that his play around the green is the weakest part of his game. None of what you've said thus far has disproved that. I'm well aware that some of his drives counted as approach shots as they got within 30 yards of the green. That doesn't change the fact that his play around the green is where he stands to gain the most with his game as is. All I've suggested is a way for him to improve that area while not adversely affecting the already good or excellent areas of his game.

There’s courses and holes where he can hit driver. His bag is setup to allow him to hit it as far as he can which is his goal. Also with shotlink he has lots of shots that get counted incorrectly. Some of his drives that were close to the green get counted as an approach shot even though it was a drives. While strokes gained are a good way to see how a player is doing against the field and analysts and fans use them to talk stats, if you swipe over on that screen to the next slide those stats matter more to the players. There’s lots of stats on there that say his bag setup works just fine.
 
 
 

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[cnosil]

On air commentators have to say something and while they research things to say it
Isn’t necessarily right. Faldo believes that steel shafts are better and would be better for
Bryson and you aren’t going to change his mind. Every player works on problem areas and one bryson’s wedge game improves they will move on to something being wrong.

Ignore the commentators.

[FrogginBullfish]

You're right. Faldo's opinion seems to be based on his antiquated ideas of graphite shafts and his preference for playing shots based on feel. That's not what Bryson is about though.

 

It becomes an issue though when broadcasters believe they're spreading factual information when they're not. And the average person tuning in doesn't know any better. The replies to my tweet at Faldo have proven that. The amount of people giving me grief for daring to suggest a 6 time major winner could be more informed about a topic was a little shocking.

On air commentators have to say something and while they research things to say it

Isn’t necessarily right. Faldo believes that steel shafts are better and would be better for

Bryson and you aren’t going to change his mind. Every player works on problem areas and one bryson’s wedge game improves they will move on to something being wrong.

 

Ignore the commentators.

 

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[RickyBobby_PR]

3 minutes ago, FrogginBullfish said:

You brought up SG in your first reply. His SG stats demonstrate that his play around the green is the weakest part of his game. None of what you've said thus far has disproved that. I'm well aware that some of his drives counted as approach shots as they got within 30 yards of the green. That doesn't change the fact that his play around the green is where he stands to gain the most with his game as is. All I've suggested is a way for him to improve that area while not adversely affecting the already good or excellent areas of his game.

 

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I’m glad you admitted that his stats are skewed by his drives, since that is one your points on Twitter and that seems to be your contention here that his game suffers based on his short game. I brought up strokes gained because they say distance matters and Bryson is focused on this. If you look at strokes gained and compare the top 5-10 ranked players in the world you wild find that they tend to be in the top of strokes gained off the tee and distance but yet they aren’t as highly ranked in strokes gained elsewhere especially in the short game area.

It’s ok to question a players bag makeup based on stayts, your interpretation of them and how you may approach things. Bryson is a professional with a lot of knowledgeable people in his camp from his coaches up thru the staff at the various companies he works with to setup his bag. To say he should add a specialty wedge because you think he should improve stats for his shaft game despite his success on the course is a little closed minded, which btw I read the twitter thread and you are as guilty of that as you claimed the people you had a discussion with.

The picture of his distances are his full swing distances. He has lots of holes where into the green he isn’t hitting full 58* or some other shirt clubs. For the sake of discussion what specialty wedge do you think he should add to his bag that would improve his short game?

[RickyBobby_PR]

And Sir Nick’s as he stated in his reply to you that his comment was about feel and has nothing to do with how different graphite shafts are now compared to the original ones or how steel is made. As he mentioned feel is important to tour players as is consistency in feel. 
 

Feel means different things to different people. It could be how the weight feels, how the feel of the shaft is in loading, what it feels like at impact and so on. Bryson hasn’t played much golf since the tour was cancelled and despite that he hasn’t finished outside the top 10 which is huge for FedEx cup race which is only 8 weeks away at the start of this tournament, world rankings points and money on the bank. DJ has 21 ones witb was was bad short game and putting to what is improved wedge wedge play and streaky putting. When a person has the #2 scoring average on tour they are going to give themselves a lot of chances to win every week regardless what strokes gained say

[FrogginBullfish]

I literally said in the first post of this thread what specialty wedge I think he could add to improve his short game.

I'm not saying his game is suffering. Just that he could stand to improve around the green. The stats demonstrate that quite clearly. This is one way to do that.

Strokes Gained is not just about distance, though it's skewed towards distance off the tee but consider that the book about the metric is called Every Shot Counts, not Only Tee Shots Count.

Not sure how you think any of my comments on Twitter are as closed-minded as those just mindlessly agreeing with Faldo but that's not a discussion for this thread.

I'm a big fan of Bryson. Always have been. I want to see him do well and he is. I created this thread to have a discussion about how he could improve his short game which is factually the weakest part of his game and given that it was such a topic of contention during the broadcast yesterday.

I’m glad you admitted that his stats are skewed by his drives, since that is one your points on Twitter and that seems to be your contention here that his game suffers based on his short game. I brought up strokes gained because they say distance matters and Bryson is focused on this. If you look at strokes gained and compare the top 5-10 ranked players in the world you wild find that they tend to be in the top of strokes gained off the tee and distance but yet they aren’t as highly ranked in strokes gained elsewhere especially in the short game area.
It’s ok to question a players bag makeup based on stayts, your interpretation of them and how you may approach things. Bryson is a professional with a lot of knowledgeable people in his camp from his coaches up thru the staff at the various companies he works with to setup his bag. To say he should add a specialty wedge because you think he should improve stats for his shaft game despite his success on the course is a little closed minded, which btw I read the twitter thread and you are as guilty of that as you claimed the people you had a discussion with.
The picture of his distances are his full swing distances. He has lots of holes where into the green he isn’t hitting full 58* or some other shirt clubs. For the sake of discussion what specialty wedge do you think he should add to his bag that would improve his short game?

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[revkev]

I’m in the camp that Bryson has a better idea of what he needs in his bag than we or any other commentator does.

I’m fairness to Faldo he did acknowledge that shaft manufacturers and other equipment experts might disagree with his statement.

It’s also easy to arm chair it and say that he should consider traditional wedge shaft lengths. In fact I’ve said that. Reading this thread makes me realize how wrong I am.

Any change would take time to implement. The guy is on a roll doing it his way. Why i the world should he change a thing right now? Also I’m sure that he had to put so much energy into his fitness and driving that he may just have let the chipping/wedge play go a bit. It’s possible that this is simply a matter of a bit more work on that area.

I think the guy is doing fine without our advice.


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[FrogginBullfish]

I certainly don't expect him to take our advice. He's smart enough to know what's working for him and what isn't. Just thought it'd be a bit of fun to have the discussion.

I’m in the camp that Bryson has a better idea of what he needs in his bag than we or any other commentator does.

I’m fairness to Faldo he did acknowledge that shaft manufacturers and other equipment experts might disagree with his statement.

It’s also easy to arm chair it and say that he should consider traditional wedge shaft lengths. In fact I’ve said that. Reading this thread makes me realize how wrong I am.

Any change would take time to implement. The guy is on a roll doing it his way. Why i the world should he change a thing right now? Also I’m sure that he had to put so much energy into his fitness and driving that he may just have let the chipping/wedge play go a bit. It’s possible that this is simply a matter of a bit more work on that area.

I think the guy is doing fine without our advice.


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[RickyBobby_PR]

15 minutes ago, FrogginBullfish said:

Strokes Gained is not just about distance, though it's skewed towards distance off the tee but consider that the book about the metric is called Every Shot Counts, not Only Tee Shots Count.

True but the guys who hit it the furthest and are high ranking in strokes gained off the tee and tee to green are the ones who win more and have higher world rankings. When they get hit with a putter and/or wedges they dominate the field where as the guys with good shirt game strokes gained and short off the tee need a lot more things to fall in place week to week.

 

[cnosil]

Here's his SG stats on the year. He's already gaining significantly off the tee. Removing one of his two 3Ws isn't going to negatively impact his SG: Off The Tee. But looking at his SG: Around The Green, he's not losing shots but he's not really gaining either. That's where his game can be improved the most. Is he better off holding onto a 3W which doesn't really alter his off the tee statistics or adding a specialized wedge which could greatly improve his weakest area? I think he's better off going with the latter.

 

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The fact that he is positive strokes gained in every aspect shows that he is playing great golf; even his short game.

 

To be positive SG you have to be putting the ball in the hole in fewer strokes than your competitors from that same distance. Driver distance doesn’t influence approach shot or short game SG. He is simply playing better more consistent golf than everyone else. You can’t look at one shot and say he has an issue.

[BMart519]

I don't think adding a wedge is necessary, seems like most tour players hit their most lofted wedge around 100 yards which matches up with Bryson's number above. Changing 1 or 2 of his highest lofted wedges to standard lengths could help with accuracy around the green on partial shots. For all we know he could have experimented with this and found the benefits didn't outweigh the technique changes for him using One Length.   

[Wakit300]

Faldo's idea of graphite iron shafts come from his own ancient experiences with them.  To say graphite shaft technology has advanced since Faldo's playing days is on par with blimps vs. airplanes.  For him to talk s*** about the shafts in Bryson's wedges (4 times during the telecast), determining that steel would be better for him, just shows how out of the loop he is. If he would actually do some research into what Bryson is using before pontificating about the benefits of steel, he might not sound like an old guard fool.  I just wanted to throw something at the TV every time he started down that wedge shaft path.

And as others have said ... once he DOES get his wedges dialed in, and you know he will cause that's what he does, he'll be the second coming of DJ after he worked out how to control his wedges.

[revkev]

I certainly don't expect him to take our advice. He's smart enough to know what's working for him and what isn't. Just thought it'd be a bit of fun to have the discussion.


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I’m good with that just mentioning that there is a price for making changes. He could take a step back changing wedges just as he has perhaps taken a step backwards with the wedges because he’s put all his eggs in the strokes gained driving basket.

My suggestion to him at this point might be analyze what shots you’re leaving yourself now that you hit it 25 yards farther and work harder on those.

That is a option here,too.


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[THEZIPR23]

He plays one length clubs because he wants one swing. Yes he could improve his SG:arg but he is also been dominating the tour since they restarted. If he switches to single length I think (and he probably firmly believes) that it will impact the rest of his game. 

[revkev]

He plays one length clubs because he wants one swing. Yes he could improve his SG:arg but he is also been dominating the tour since they restarted. If he switches to single length I think (and he probably firmly believes) that it will impact the rest of his game. 

I agree

But I think the point of the thread is how to improve his substandard wedge play - it’s a cool exercise because we all have strengths and weaknesses.

Changing equipment is only one possibility - tweaking is another - I’m suggesting targeted practice to avoid the very issues you are mentioning.

If I were playing like he is right now I’d be reluctant to make any equipment changes.


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[fixyurdivot]

14 hours ago, FrogginBullfish said:

 

Bryson's been the talk of the Tour pretty much since the restart and for good measure. He's been inside the Top 8 in every event since the restart and going back his last 7 events including yesterday's win at the Rocket Mortgage.

 

A big talking point in yesterday's final round was Bryson's wedges and more specifically his use of graphite shafts in his wedges. Nick Faldo believes Bryson's troubles with the wedges would be solved by switching back to steel shafts. A notion which has been disputed by many in the industry including Tony from MGS and Ian Fraser from TXG.

 

I also dispute Faldo's assertion and would argue any issues with Bryson's short game stem more from the 7 iron length wedges than what shafts he's using. Particularly given that Bryson's LAGP Texas Rebar prototype shafts are by far the stiffest shafts on Tour and would be unplayable if made with steel.

 

What I think would provide the most benefit to Bryson's short game would be removing his 295 and 275 yard clubs from the graphic below and replacing them with a 285 yard club. This would give him the opportunity to put another specialist wedge in the bag that he could use for the more delicate shots around the greens. I'd suggest a 60° with moderate bounce and a versatile grind in a more standard length. In my opinion, this would allow him to maintain ONE length on full shots and more straightforward pitches but allow him to more comfortably handle the more demanding shots around the green.

 

I think this would also be a good way to demonstrate that his graphite shafts aren't the issue with his short game.

 

Curious what others think. I've had some rather close-minded discussions with individuals on Twitter after Faldo quote-tweeted me on the subject but I remain fascinated by what Bryson's doing as I have been since he joined the Tour.

 

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Having a Twitter debate with Sir Nick... that's something to put on your resume and tell the grandkids .  Bryson's game and stats are going to ebb and flow just like the rest of the field. I suspect he'll try some equipment changes in his wedges and it wouldn't surprise me to hear he and Nick do lunch and some range time as part of the tinkering.

[cnosil]

25 minutes ago, revkev said:

But I think the point of the thread is how to improve his substandard wedge play - it’s a cool exercise because we all have strengths and weaknesses.

Changing equipment is only one possibility - tweaking is another - I’m suggesting targeted practice to avoid the very issues you are mentioning.

If I were playing like he is right now I’d be reluctant to make any equipment changes.
 

 

While that is the point of the thread,  I don't think he has a substandard wedge game.  He is gaining strokes on the field with his wedge play.   What we are seeing is that the camera is following him and showing all of his shots.  What we are seeing is a real golf game not a highlight reel.  

[revkev]

While that is the point of the thread,  I don't think he has a substandard wedge game.  He is gaining strokes on the field with his wedge play.   What we are seeing is that the camera is following him and showing all of his shots.  What we are seeing is a real golf game not a highlight reel.  

I agree with your assessment that seeing entire rounds without the normal interruptions allows us to see blemishes that have always been there.

However, Bryson’s proximity rankings inside of 125 are not good - part of that may be that he’s hitting the ball from the rough more frequently - so his numbers aren’t great from 75 yards compared to the field - he’s there more frequently and I’m sure that a mediocre performance from 75 compared to other touring pros puts him closer to the hole than a very good performance from 125.


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[RickyBobby_PR]

8 hours ago, revkev said:

 

 

I agree with your assessment that seeing entire rounds without the normal interruptions allows us to see blemishes that have always been there.

However, Bryson’s proximity rankings inside of 125 are not good - part of that may be that he’s hitting the ball from the rough more frequently - so his numbers aren’t great from 75 yards compared to the field - he’s there more frequently and I’m sure that a mediocre performance from 75 compared to other touring pros puts him closer to the hole than a very good performance from 125.


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Despite that he’s second in scoring average.

[revkev]

2 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Despite that he’s second in scoring average.

If you reviewed my other posts in this thread I'm trying very hard to stick to the OPs line of - how would we suggest improving his wedge play. 

Obviously or at least obviously to me his strategy works for him and since it works for him there will be copy cats.  I'm simply trying to address the matter at hand. 

[null]

11 hours ago, revkev said:

 

 

I agree with your assessment that seeing entire rounds without the normal interruptions allows us to see blemishes that have always been there.

However, Bryson’s proximity rankings inside of 125 are not good - part of that may be that he’s hitting the ball from the rough more frequently - so his numbers aren’t great from 75 yards compared to the field - he’s there more frequently and I’m sure that a mediocre performance from 75 compared to other touring pros puts him closer to the hole than a very good performance from 125.


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His fairway hit percentage is only down to 61.05% this year (he was at 65% last year)

[RickyBobby_PR]

14 minutes ago, revkev said:

If you reviewed my other posts in this thread I'm trying very hard to stick to the OPs line of - how would we suggest improving his wedge play. 

Obviously or at least obviously to me his strategy works for him and since it works for him there will be copy cats.  I'm simply trying to address the matter at hand. 

But does he have to improve it? If one looks at his rounds since the restart it’s usually been one round where putter has gone cold or maybe some short game and that’s pretty much how most pros go. They have a low round and the next round doesn’t go as well. 
 

As for the op’s suggestion of a specialty wedge that’s not something many pros have in the bag. Phil is one of the few who plays a 64* wedge. DJs wedge game isn’t that great and he has large gaps between each wedge, could he improve his wedge game by reducing the gaps? Maybe buy like every pro they have a reason for every club in their bag and prior to last week he only carried 13 clubs. 

The commentators have to pick out where players are struggling and as op pointed out that he wasn’t happy with faldo’s comment about steel vs graphite and what Faldo states in his reply on Twitter was that he was talking about feel and how pros use feel and that may be something he could get by going back to steel. 

[FrogginBullfish]

How about you tap out on this one?

The point isn't that his short game is so bad that he won in spite of it. I started this thread after I made a post on my Twitter postulating how improving his around the green play could make him unstoppable. That was the point of the thread that clearly I haven't gotten across to you.

He's second in total Strokes Gained on the year so obviously what he's got is working for him. All I was suggesting is that there is room for improvement with his ranking of 96th in SG: Around the Green, which is a categorical fact. None of anything you've said in this thread has disproved that in any way, shape, or form. In fact, you haven't even addressed that.

Yes, my argument with Faldo started the thought process which I added for context but you're getting far too into that part of it. I don't think graphite's the issue. Nor does Ian Fraser. Nor does Tony or Chris from MGS. Nor do many others. Hell, TXG just released a video this morning on the subject. I haven't watched it yet but based on the comments, they proved Faldo wrong.

I've provided my theory on how he could improve his SG: Around the Green. If you want to provide your own suggestion, I'd be happy to hear it, but otherwise this thread probably isn't for you.

But does he have to improve it? If one looks at his rounds since the restart it’s usually been one round where putter has gone cold or maybe some short game and that’s pretty much how most pros go. They have a low round and the next round doesn’t go as well. 
 
As for the op’s suggestion of a specialty wedge that’s not something many pros have in the bag. Phil is one of the few who plays a 64* wedge. DJs wedge game isn’t that great and he has large gaps between each wedge, could he improve his wedge game by reducing the gaps? Maybe buy like every pro they have a reason for every club in their bag and prior to last week he only carried 13 clubs. 
The commentators have to pick out where players are struggling and as op pointed out that he wasn’t happy with faldo’s comment about steel vs graphite and what Faldo states in his reply on Twitter was that he was talking about feel and how pros use feel and that may be something he could get by going back to steel. 

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[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, FrogginBullfish said:

How about you tap out on this one?

The point isn't that his short game is so bad that he won in spite of it. I started this thread after I made a post on my Twitter postulating how improving his around the green play could make him unstoppable. That was the point of the thread that clearly I haven't gotten across to you.

He's second in total Strokes Gained on the year so obviously what he's got is working for him. All I was suggesting is that there is room for improvement with his ranking of 96th in SG: Around the Green, which is a categorical fact. None of anything you've said in this thread has disproved that in any way, shape, or form. In fact, you haven't even addressed that.

Yes, my argument with Faldo started the thought process which I added for context but you're getting far too into that part of it. I don't think graphite's the issue. Nor does Ian Fraser. Nor does Tony or Chris from MGS. Nor do many others. Hell, TXG just released a video this morning on the subject. I haven't watched it yet but based on the comments, they proved Faldo wrong.

I've provided my theory on how he could improve his SG: Around the Green. If you want to provide your own suggestion, I'd be happy to hear it, but otherwise this thread probably isn't for you.

 

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This is an open forum and like you I’m expressing my opinion in a topic. If you don’t like my opinion that’s fine and discussions on forums have those differences. 

Everyone knows that the top players if they have every aspect of their game going will dominate. It’s what made Tiger so great. Most weeks he was dominate in all aspects of the game and even on some occasions he won when one part of his game was lacking. Rory was the same way. The span of time where he had his wedges going and was above avg with the putter he ran off a bunch of victories and majors and it was hard to beat him. DJ when he decided that he needed to work on his wage game ran off majors and multiple win seasons and now that his wedge game and putter have gone cold he can still win.

Bryson was short off the tee and saw how the guys like rory, tiger, Brooks were winning due to their length. He out a plan in place to improve  his distance and he got that results he wanted. 
 

If you look at his stats over the last few years he’s actually improved this year over those years in strokes gained. 
 

 You think him removing a long club for a specialty wedge should be something he should consider to improving his wedge game. I asked earlier and either you skipped it or ignored it. What specialty wedge do you think he should add? And I’ll expand the question to why and in what situations would it be used?

[Bustaferrari]

I think he needs to plan out his shots better and go with what he knows is comfortable. He practices with what he plays so he knows what he is using just likely needs course management or just better play.  The equipment at this point is not a problem at his level. Maybe his wedges are his short fall which makes the likes of Webb Simpson still viable regardless of the length of his drives. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

3 minutes ago, Bustaferrari said:

I think he needs to plan out his shots better and go with what he knows is comfortable. He practices with what he plays so he knows what he is using just likely needs course management or just better play.  The equipment at this point is not a problem at his level. Maybe his wedges are his short fall which makes the likes of Webb Simpson still viable regardless of the length of his drives. 

He does have his shots planned out. The plan is to hit the ball as far as he can off the tee. He hits FW or Hybrid when he can’t hit driver as seen in the previous weeks when holes that fairway run out where the driver or FW would. Other guys were hitting irons instead of hybrids to find their right distance.