Losing distance by changing lie angle on irons

[Calvo90]

I need a little input from MGS members.

After seeing TXG video about lie board and lie angles of irons and after doing some additional research I decided a couple of months ago to have lie angle of my irons bent from 1* flat to 1* upright. Reason for this was mainly the flight as I was seeing LOTS of pushes on the golf course and range (possibly due to the occasional poor face control) plus static measurements of my height and arm reach suggested that the lie angle of my irons should be 1-2* upright. Also before bending the irons they seemed to sit not on the heel portion of the sole but on the middle or slightly towards the toe portion. It is worth also mentioning I have no access to a lauch monitor to measure dynamic lie angle so I was forced to ''guesstimate'' the numbers.

The irons were fine and sat beautifully until I took them to the course. I noticed I lost at least 15 meters of distance with the irons (whereas distance with the woods and hybrids remained pretty much the same) and having serious problems with ball striking especially (but not exclusively) in the long irons which was not the case the previous season. At first I thought it must be my post-pandemic slower than usual swing and I need to work on it. After about 10 rounds on the course, 8 hours on the range with the video and one hour with a pro nothing changed. Direction of the flight is usually nice at the target (with occasional 2 meter pull) but when I was messing around with my posture at address I noticed my ball striking and distance significantly improved if I stood more upright. 

Also I have some contradictory feedback about the dynamic lie angle. ''Sharpie line on the ball test'' says that the dynamic lie angle is perfectly flat (the line on the club face is completely vertical with no tilt) but when when I look at the compressed plastic residue from range mats on the club soles I notice the material from the mat reaches way further towards the heel than the toe section of the sole. I will post some pictures when I get home from today's range session.

Has anyone else experienced such dramatic change in ball striking with just 2* of change in lie angle in their irons?

I am thinking of bending the irons back to 1* flat or at least standard lie angle. I am curious about the MGS member's thoughts on the matter.

>>sorry for the long post<<

[FrogginBullfish]

I think your best option is to get on a launch monitor with a qualified fitter.

If that's not possible at the moment though I'd suggest going back to your original spec until you can get in with a fitter.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using MyGolfSpy mobile app

[RickyBobby_PR]

When I was going they the process of getting fit for the i210 testing a couple years ago I was only able to test/fit shaft with blue dot (1* up) but I fit to red (1* flat) my distances and contact didn’t not change between the two. 
 

Are you losing distance in carry distance or total distance? 

[cnosil]

All I can say is that typically distance isn’t impacted by that small of a lie angle adjustment. Lie changes are intended to fix direction.

If you were seeing bigger right or left shifts then I would say that you were hitting the heel or toe and causing the club to spin open or closed which could cause distance losses. But you indicated that you are seeing better ball flight.

The only other thought is that the person that bent them also changed the loft of the clubs. Are you seeing higher or lower ball flight?

[jaskanski]

1 hour ago, cnosil said:

The only other thought is that the person that bent them also changed the loft of the clubs. Are you seeing higher or lower ball flight?

I think @cnosil has a valid point. Bending irons is not always as straightforward as you think if you aren't looking at the bigger picture. 

As with most good fitters, it's always best to get a snapshot of what you have before making any adjustments - bending 2* is only really possible if you know the reference point you're starting from. Did they just assume the irons were in standard spec without checking first or did they just move 2* from where they were?

Measuring everything eliminates any doubt. That is why all good fitters get a baseline of results and metrics as a reference point to start from. The measured factors can assist in building a picture of what is required. After any adjustment - measure again to see how much has changed, regardless of how much you think it has been adjusted. If the adjustment is out of plane by a single degree, it will have an effect on loft. 

GC2HMT is a useful tool in getting a snapshot of where dynamic loft and face angle relates to impact and can give a useful 'before and after' confirmation of what is occurring.

The good news is there is no replacement for the Mk1 human eyeball - and if the ball flight looks good, then all the tweaking in the world is pretty much irrelevant. It's much better to have a baseline of straight shots to work from rather than worrying about distance in this case. Sole interaction only does so much in analysis - it could be that your path is leading slightly heel first and giving more loft with the open face, even though you are otherwise square to target with your lie - it would certainly account for reduced distance. 

 

Edited July 9, 2020 by jaskanski

[Calvo90]

6 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Are you losing distance in carry distance or total distance? 

Both. For example 6 iron total distance last year was 160m (pretty much all carry because the course is usually soft and balls stop at landing).  Yesterday I hit pretty good 6 iron into the green from 140m all carry and app. 0,5 m of rool out. GPS measurements.

5 hours ago, cnosil said:

Are you seeing higher or lower ball flight?

Height was never my problem. I estimate the flight is a bit lower but I guess that could be the result of a poor strike. Good strikes fly about the same. Thanks for the advice about checking the specs. It certainly would not hurt to double chech the specs.

3 hours ago, jaskanski said:

As with most good fitters, it's always best to get a snapshot of what you have before making any adjustments - bending 2* is only really possible if you know the reference point you're starting from. Did they just assume the irons were in standard spec without checking first or did they just move 2* from where they were?

I bought the irons from eBay about 2 years ago and immediately had them checked. They were anywhere from standard lie angle in PW to 3* flat in 5 iron. Lofts were spot on. I had them all bent to 1* flat and recently from that position to 1* upright. To the ''club bender'' I ordered specific lie angles and not just 2* up for every club.

3 hours ago, jaskanski said:

it could be that your path is leading slightly heel first and giving more loft with the open face, even though you are otherwise square to target with your lie - it would certainly account for reduced distance. 

I was thinking about power leaks from ''glancing blow'' - perhaps being out to in (from video analysis my over the top move was quite apparent at the beginning of the season but I successfully ''recalibrated'' myself), with open face but the toe up face would neutralize the ball flight.

I agree that GC Quad would be the best tool to analyze what is going on but unfortunately the closest one to me is more than 3 hour roadtrip away plus closed for the summer. Not really an option. Thanks for the advice.

[RickyBobby_PR]

9 minutes ago, Calvo90 said:

Both. For example 6 iron total distance last year was 160m (pretty much all carry because the course is usually soft and balls stop at landing).  Yesterday I hit pretty good 6 iron into the green from 140m all carry and app. 0,5 m of rool out. GPS measurements.

Height was never my problem. I estimate the flight is a bit lower but I guess that could be the result of a poor strike. Good strikes fly about the same. Thanks for the advice about checking the specs. It certainly would not hurt to double chech the specs.

I bought the irons from eBay about 2 years ago and immediately had them checked. They were anywhere from standard lie angle in PW to 3* flat in 5 iron. Lofts were spot on. I had them all bent to 1* flat and recently from that position to 1* upright. To the ''club bender'' I ordered specific lie angles and not just 2* up for every club.

I was thinking about power leaks from ''glancing blow'' - perhaps being out to in (from video analysis my over the top move was quite apparent at the beginning of the season but I successfully ''recalibrated'' myself), with open face but the toe up face would neutralize the ball flight.

I agree that GC Quad would be the best tool to analyze what is going on but unfortunately the closest one to me is more than 3 hour roadtrip away plus closed for the summer. Not really an option. Thanks for the advice.

Without seeing launch monitor data it’s really going to be hard to say why you are losing distance. I would rule out it being lie angle as others pointed out. It’s more than likely due to something with club delivery and contact to include the amount of dynamic loft presented at contact. There’s a chance it’s static loft of the club that got changed when the lie angle changed but a reputable shop wouldn’t mess with that just by bending lie.