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Driver decision (after what seemed like a bad fitting)


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My driver shaft broke recently.  Since I've been playing the same driver for a long time I figured I'd but a new one instead of putting a new shaft in my old driver. The old driver is a Ping G15 it had 9 degrees of loft and a stock stiff shaft (TFC149).  Pretty standard Ping stuff, bought it about 10 years ago, used and it's been a great stick for me.

The last couple of weeks, I've hit quite a few different drivers.  Since the local Golf Galaxy has lots of used drivers, it's easy to hit lots different boom sticks.  Basically after hitting a bunch of sticks, I felt like I was all over the place so I asked the guy at Golf Galaxy for a fitting and that I was looking mostly at the Ping G410 and the Cobra Speedzone and that my swing speed was around 93.  Note, yes I'm aware that there are better places to get fitted but I'm pretty broke right now and had a significant GG/Dicks store credit.  Also, I had talked with this guy last week and he seemed to know his stuff.

He brings me one of each to hit.  I picked up the Ping and hit it really well.  I hit the Cobra as well, but the Ping was clearly working better for me.  What surprised me was that the Ping was a 12 degree (set to neutral and the hosel is set to standard) with a regular flex stock shaft.  I tend to hit the ball high which is why I bought at 9 degree G15.  Even with the 9 I still tend to hit it pretty high.  I told him that and I also told him that my miss is generally left (I said that I fight a hook).  So he brings me a 10.5 in the Ping but it's a SFT (which isn't what someone that fights a hook should hit). I actually hit it pretty well, about the same as the 12.  I asked him if I should hit any other shafts and he really didn't offer any.  He was making sense when he basically said "you're gaining 20 yards on average and your dispersion is good".  I expressed some concern about the spin rate (3k) and he wasn't worried about it.

I ended up buying the driver.  Hit it on the range yesterday (with the plastic on it).  I hit it OK and fairly high. I'm OK with fairly high (I'm used to it) but I feel like I might be giving up distance by having such a high ball flight.  As I'm thinking about the experience, I suspect that he didn't have a 10.5 with a regular flex and that's why he had me hit the SFT which makes me think that he was pushing that 12 degree because he wanted to sell a club not because it's really the right club for me. I could be wrong but something just feels wrong.

A couple of thoughts:

  • I'm actually quite confident that the G410 is the right head, it's rather fantastic
  • I hit a used Speedzone extreme with a 12 degree loft earlier this week, it had about 3k of spin as well but wasn't getting the distance I was with the G410
  • I haven't changed the settings yet but I think the 'flat' hosel settings might be great to help with the miss to the left and would take me from hitting it OK to hitting it really well
  • The hosel is adjustable but I think that if I lower the loft that it'll close the face some (not great when I'm trying to prevent a hook).  So if I start at 12 and drop it (either all the way down to 10.5 neutral or 11 flat), I lower the loft but if I can't do that without closing off the face, that seems like a bad idea.
  • I'm tempted to just return it and get a 10.5 (even if I have to check a few GG/Dicks to find one).  If I'm right if I add loft to the 10.5 it would open the face a bit which doesn't worry me.

This is the first time I was fitted for a driver.....I don't feel like there was much fitting going on here. Thoughts?  Advice?

Am I correct about the correlation between loft changes and face angle (lowering loft == closing face)?

Thanks for listening 🙂

 

 

 

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Do you have LM data?

Lowering loft opens the face. 

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4 minutes ago, elvis14 said:

My driver shaft broke recently.  Since I've been playing the same driver for a long time I figured I'd but a new one instead of putting a new shaft in my old driver. The old driver is a Ping G15 it had 9 degrees of loft and a stock stiff shaft (TFC149).  Pretty standard Ping stuff, bought it about 10 years ago, used and it's been a great stick for me.

The last couple of weeks, I've hit quite a few different drivers.  Since the local Golf Galaxy has lots of used drivers, it's easy to hit lots different boom sticks.  Basically after hitting a bunch of sticks, I felt like I was all over the place so I asked the guy at Golf Galaxy for a fitting and that I was looking mostly at the Ping G410 and the Cobra Speedzone and that my swing speed was around 93.  Note, yes I'm aware that there are better places to get fitted but I'm pretty broke right now and had a significant GG/Dicks store credit.  Also, I had talked with this guy last week and he seemed to know his stuff.

He brings me one of each to hit.  I picked up the Ping and hit it really well.  I hit the Cobra as well, but the Ping was clearly working better for me.  What surprised me was that the Ping was a 12 degree (set to neutral and the hosel is set to standard) with a regular flex stock shaft.  I tend to hit the ball high which is why I bought at 9 degree G15.  Even with the 9 I still tend to hit it pretty high.  I told him that and I also told him that my miss is generally left (I said that I fight a hook).  So he brings me a 10.5 in the Ping but it's a SFT (which isn't what someone that fights a hook should hit). I actually hit it pretty well, about the same as the 12.  I asked him if I should hit any other shafts and he really didn't offer any.  He was making sense when he basically said "you're gaining 20 yards on average and your dispersion is good".  I expressed some concern about the spin rate (3k) and he wasn't worried about it.

I ended up buying the driver.  Hit it on the range yesterday (with the plastic on it).  I hit it OK and fairly high. I'm OK with fairly high (I'm used to it) but I feel like I might be giving up distance by having such a high ball flight.  As I'm thinking about the experience, I suspect that he didn't have a 10.5 with a regular flex and that's why he had me hit the SFT which makes me think that he was pushing that 12 degree because he wanted to sell a club not because it's really the right club for me. I could be wrong but something just feels wrong.

A couple of thoughts:

  • I'm actually quite confident that the G410 is the right head, it's rather fantastic
  • I hit a used Speedzone extreme with a 12 degree loft earlier this week, it had about 3k of spin as well but wasn't getting the distance I was with the G410
  • I haven't changed the settings yet but I think the 'flat' hosel settings might be great to help with the miss to the left and would take me from hitting it OK to hitting it really well
  • The hosel is adjustable but I think that if I lower the loft that it'll close the face some (not great when I'm trying to prevent a hook).  So if I start at 12 and drop it (either all the way down to 10.5 neutral or 11 flat), I lower the loft but if I can't do that without closing off the face, that seems like a bad idea.
  • I'm tempted to just return it and get a 10.5 (even if I have to check a few GG/Dicks to find one).  If I'm right if I add loft to the 10.5 it would open the face a bit which doesn't worry me.

This is the first time I was fitted for a driver.....I don't feel like there was much fitting going on here. Thoughts?  Advice?

Am I correct about the correlation between loft changes and face angle (lowering loft == closing face)?

Thanks for listening 🙂

 

 

 

Lowering the loft on an adjustable driver opens the face.

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What is your peak height?

What is your launch angle?

Spin can be a golfers friend but there is a point where it hurts. Spin and launch go hand in hand.

Many amateurs think the hit it too high and a lot of them could actually use more height.

Many of the top pros are over 100’ in peak height and several above 115’

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I failed to take a picture of the LM in the fitting area.  I do know that my swing speed on that LM yesterday was on average about 92.  The spin rates were about 3000, I think the launch angle was 18.5.  Total distance was in the 245 range.  Using these numbers is fairly new to me but after hitting a bunch of times with the LM lately I was thinking that a lower launch angle and something closer to 2000rpm in spin would be better.

Thanks for the responses, I have the face to loft adjustment backwards.  This is actually good news for me since my miss if left.  If I keep the driver I can drop it down to 10.5 or 11 and not close the face more.

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9 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

What is your peak height?

What is your launch angle?

Spin can be a golfers friend but there is a point where it hurts. Spin and launch go hand in hand.

Many amateurs think the hit it too high and a lot of them could actually use more height.

Many of the top pros are over 100’ in peak height and several above 115’

I don't remember the peak height, I'm confident it wasn't near 100.  The launch angle was in the 18's.  I actually tend to hit the ball pretty high and actually prefer it that way.  I don't need line drives, I'm just concerned that I'll trade too much height for distance.

One other note, when I hit a few other drivers earlier this week (and did take a picture of the LM data), my average peak height was 28 yards (84').

Edited by elvis14
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12 minutes ago, elvis14 said:

I don't remember the peak height, I'm confident it wasn't near 100.  The launch angle was in the 18's.  I actually tend to hit the ball pretty high and actually prefer it that way.  I don't need line drives, I'm just concerned that I'll trade too much height for distance.

One other note, when I hit a few other drivers earlier this week (and did take a picture of the LM data), my average peak height was 28 yards (84').

28 yards isn’t all that high and for most swing speeds there no issues until one gets above 33 yards.

18* launch with 3k spin isnt necessarily bad. LPGA avg swing speed is 94 and they have launch angles in the 14-15 range with spin between 2600 and 2700. Lower swing speeds benefits from higher launch and spin. 

do you know your aoa? also do you know where on the club face you make contact most of the time?

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8 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

28 yards isn’t all that high and for most swing speeds there no issues until one gets above 33 yards.

18* launch with 3k spin isnt necessarily bad. LPGA avg swing speed is 94 and they have launch angles in the 14-15 range with spin between 2600 and 2700. Lower swing speeds benefits from higher launch and spin. 

do you know your aoa? also do you know where on the club face you make contact most of the time?

Thanks for the responses, really helps put these numbers in perspective for me.  I actually really like watching LPGA players play because I feel like they are closer in distance and style of play to me (they are a little longer) and I can relate to their games.  For instance the women hit hybrids more than the PGA players and use them more like I would.

If aoa is angle of attack and it's the same as 'decent angle' then I can tell you that the stats I have from the other day when I hit it was an average of 36.

I freely admit that the 12 could be just fine for me and I just need to get my ego in check but I'm just surprised after hitting a 9 degree driver fairly well for a while.

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56 minutes ago, elvis14 said:

Thanks for the responses, really helps put these numbers in perspective for me.  I actually really like watching LPGA players play because I feel like they are closer in distance and style of play to me (they are a little longer) and I can relate to their games.  For instance the women hit hybrids more than the PGA players and use them more like I would.

If aoa is angle of attack and it's the same as 'decent angle' then I can tell you that the stats I have from the other day when I hit it was an average of 36.

I freely admit that the 12 could be just fine for me and I just need to get my ego in check but I'm just surprised after hitting a 9 degree driver fairly well for a while.

Aoa is angle of attack that is the angle the club comes into the ball which is different from descent angle or in other monitors land angle 

your land angle is actually pretty good. I’m glad you mentioned that as I forgot to ask that. Lpga tour avg is 37. So we can assume that your ball isn’t just falling out of the sky after ballooning.

you could try the same shaft in a lower lofted version of the driver which would generally lower spin and launch. 

 

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It's already been covered, but the lower the ball speed, the greater spin required for optimal distance.  I would guess your current rig is fine.  Which is easy for me to say, LOL

Your old Ping may have been stamped with 9*, but it could easily have been 11* or more.  All, or nearly all, OEMs borrowed Callaway's loft inflation practice in the first decade of the century.  

Even aside from that, there's the standard plus or minus 1* manufacturing tolerance.

Long way of saying your new driver could be a lot closer to your old driver than you know <shrug>

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4 hours ago, NRJyzr said:

It's already been covered, but the lower the ball speed, the greater spin required for optimal distance.  I would guess your current rig is fine.  Which is easy for me to say, LOL

Your old Ping may have been stamped with 9*, but it could easily have been 11* or more.  All, or nearly all, OEMs borrowed Callaway's loft inflation practice in the first decade of the century.  

Even aside from that, there's the standard plus or minus 1* manufacturing tolerance.

Long way of saying your new driver could be a lot closer to your old driver than you know <shrug>

Thanks.  Looking at these numbers is new to me.  And I hadn't really thought about that 9* not really being 9.   When I bought that Ping, I saw it in a Golfsmith, noticed the 9* loft and knowing that I hit the ball high thought I'd give it a try.  Bought it used and never looked back (plus it matched the G15 irons I had at the time).  I later added a G15 4-wood that I love and still have in my bag.  This time, since I'm playing more, I figured getting fitted would be a better path but I have my doubts.

Knowing that I can lower the loft without closing the face makes me more comfortable.  I'm either going to just keep it or trade it in for a 10.5 and be done.  I think either would work pretty well and both have adjustability.  I hit it pretty well or I wouldn't have bought it but I just wonder if he didn't put me in the 10.5 because he didn't have one and could see that I was hitting the 12 well enough.  As I've been playing more of the last year I am slowing improving and worry that the 10.5 might be a better long term solution (that G410 hits so well I can see myself keeping it for years).

 

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On 7/9/2020 at 2:00 PM, elvis14 said:

Thanks for the responses, really helps put these numbers in perspective for me.  I actually really like watching LPGA players play because I feel like they are closer in distance and style of play to me (they are a little longer) and I can relate to their games.  For instance the women hit hybrids more than the PGA players and use them more like I would.

If aoa is angle of attack and it's the same as 'decent angle' then I can tell you that the stats I have from the other day when I hit it was an average of 36.

I freely admit that the 12 could be just fine for me and I just need to get my ego in check but I'm just surprised after hitting a 9 degree driver fairly well for a while.

Yes it is recommended that most male amateur golfers watch LPGA players for comparison over PGA tour players. Their swing speeds and course management are similar to most of us. Trying to play like a PGA tour player usually doesn't work for us because we don't have their swing speeds or distance!

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18 hours ago, golfish! said:

Yes it is recommended that most male amateur golfers watch LPGA players for comparison over PGA tour players. Their swing speeds and course management are similar to most of us. Trying to play like a PGA tour player usually doesn't work for us because we don't have their swing speeds or distance!

It's good for me to hear you say that guys should watch LPGA players.  I've felt that way for years but didn't know it was a somewhat common opinion. A good drive for me is around 230, really good one 250, occasional OMG's 280.  If you ask me I'll tell you I'm a 230.  I actually gained some this year with a grip change so that 230 might be a little short but I prefer modesty and realism over anything else.  I have a buddy that will tend to quote the "occasional OMG" number and I just shake my head.  I'll never play like a PGA tour but I would love to play around like an LPGA player.  Heck at 5'7" and 150#, I'm closer in size to most of the LPGA players anyway.

After reading the comments on here and doing more research on loft, I've learned a few things:

  • I was wrong about the adjustable lofts and moving it down will open the club and not close it. That's good for me because if 12 is too much loft I can lower it without causing more of a hook.
  • The spin numbers I was worried about aren't that far off
  • Researching loft this morning I find multiple articles talking about the correlation between swing speed and loft (with the angle of attack coming into play).  Basically, what I consistently see is that for a guy with a swing speed between 90-95 that 11 or 12 degrees of loft is a good thing.  A couple of charts and graphs basically showed that the 10.5 comes into play once I hit 100mph swing speed.
  • As NRJyzr pointed out, my old Ping G15 may have had 9* on the head but it probably wasn't really an actual 9.  Googling around this morning, I found several articles that said the G15 was lofted higher than listed (and an article that just talked about variation in the manufacturing process).  So I'm probably not going from a real 9 to a real 12.

As such, I think I'm going to keep the driver and give the fitter more credit.  When he handed me that Ping G410, my first 3 swings were long and straight (as were quite a few others).  He kinda joked at that point that we were probably done.  It's taken me a few days to realize....he was probably right.  Like I said before, I did hit the Cobra Speedzone and I clearly hit the G410 better.

I hit it at the range the other day with the plastic still on it so I could return it if I didn't get comfortable.  I'm going back to the range today to get this thing dialed in. The hozel has 3 flat settings (f-1, f0, f+1) that are supposedly good for helping with a draw. Between that adjustment, the club face opening some if I drop the loft and the moveable weight in the back, I have a few things to play with to help with the hook I'm fighting and just find a setting that gets the most for my swing.  I really appreciate you guys taking the time to teach me a few things about drivers this week.  If I hit the range today and hopefully play tomorrow morning, I'll report back 🙂

 

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With an adjustable hosel, would it be so wrong to just self-examine somewhat scientifically then make the adjustments to the driver yourself?  That being said, if you were feeling doubt about the quality of the fitting, the rep take responsibility for setting you up for success with the club settings from the start.

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I failed to take a picture of the LM in the fitting area.  I do know that my swing speed on that LM yesterday was on average about 92.  The spin rates were about 3000, I think the launch angle was 18.5.  Total distance was in the 245 range.  Using these numbers is fairly new to me but after hitting a bunch of times with the LM lately I was thinking that a lower launch angle and something closer to 2000rpm in spin would be better.
Thanks for the responses, I have the face to loft adjustment backwards.  This is actually good news for me since my miss if left.  If I keep the driver I can drop it down to 10.5 or 11 and not close the face more.

I would never fit someone with a launch of 18.5 and 3000 spin. Both of those numbers are high. My guess is that unless the fairways are really dry, you get no roll to some back spin.


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12 hours ago, wesmith4 said:

With an adjustable hosel, would it be so wrong to just self-examine somewhat scientifically then make the adjustments to the driver yourself?  That being said, if you were feeling doubt about the quality of the fitting, the rep take responsibility for setting you up for success with the club settings from the start.

Now that I bought the club, I will absolutely take the time to methodically test the various settings to find what works best for me.  After having played with the club I'm feeling better about it. 

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5 hours ago, Rtracymog said:


I would never fit someone with a launch of 18.5 and 3000 spin. Both of those numbers are high. My guess is that unless the fairways are really dry, you get no roll to some back spin.


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Thanks for that, lets me know my concerns weren't just buyers remorse.

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I didn't make it to the range yesterday.  Spectrum was coming to the house between 1 and 2 to try and fix my internet connection.  Poor guy ended up being here 6 hours so I didn't make it to the range.  I played 18 this morning, however.  I took a guess at a good setup and did two things:  moved the hozel from 0-neutral to 0-flat, moved the weight on the back from Neutral to Fade.   Both of these changes are to promote a straighter ball flight by reducing draw (plus I'm only 5'7" tall so I figured the flat lie could fit me well).  

After playing out of the fairway all day I have to say I'm pretty happy. Yes my drives had some height to them (that's actually somewhat normal for me) but the distance was solid.  I didn't hit any slices (my usual miss is pull/hook) and my misses hooked less than my g15 which gave me solid shots when my swing was just OK.  My best mishit was a drive that hooked on a dogleg left leaving me 85 yards from the pin (yes, I missed the birdie putt, damnit!).  

So the "bad fitting" label is either something I was wrong about or the guy just got lucky.  It just seemed like he was done after I hit 3 shots with the G410.

I will find my way to the range soon and try some of the other settings (like flat -1) to maximize distance and minimize dispersion.  I think I'm really going to like this club a lot.  I can see why it rated so highly on the MGS driver tests this year.

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@elvis14 mind you that it takes some time to get adjusted to new equipment. Seems though that you are happy with your new driver and that is what matters!

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Elvis14 - your numbers are very similar to mine!  I had a G30, got picked for a MGS test of the G400 and then into the G410 after doing SuperSpeed for half a year (long, long story.)  At any rate as others have written your numbers really aren't that far off.  Many of us think that we launch driver high when we actually don't.  Ideal for you would be around 15 with the high 2,000's for spin.  You might get that by dialing it down one (that's where I'm at.)  BTW there is also the option to flatten the lie angle on the G410.  You might consider trying that to see if it doesn't help with your hook. 

Let us know how the experimenting works and good luck!

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EVNRoll ER 5

Titleist Pro VIx optic yellow with revkev stamped on them

Currently testing Edison wedges to replace SCORS that are wearing out. Also auditions for the 14th spot in the bag.  Current possibilities are a Ping 26 degree hybrid - duplicates the 9 wood or 5 iron but would be used almost exclusively for chipping or Tour Exotics 3 wood simply because you can carry 14 clubs and I might occasionally hit it in certain unusual wind conditions once every four or five rounds. 

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