One length and swing mechanics

[twyatt700]

Hey anyone else out there playing the one length irons? So I switched last summer and the immediate results were wonderful! My scores went down immediately and it was just more fun to play. My ball striking was greatly improved, but still not great according to arccos. This spring now summer I started the super speed protocol and have been really working on my mechanics to help correct my slight over the top move. But I’m getting discouraged as I feel to more I work on getting “shallow” the more speed I loose in the swing and now my ball striking is awful. The more I try to research swing mechanics and club fitting I realize that I need to go to a fitter to get my clubs adjusted to my swing instead of play long the stick set

My real questions to everyone is

1) is it better to ride with what I got in terms of my swing (I’m a recovered baseball player who was really good at hitting a baseball and self taught myself to a single digit handicap) but now that I’m filming my swing and studying mechanics I’m falling into the “shallow is better I must change” thinking. So should I stick with what works??

2) will an iron fitting make that big of a difference in my performance with my current swing

3) if your swing is consistent and efficient, does the path really matter

4) has anyone else who plays one length split there shaft material, I’m think of trying graphite in the 4,5,6 and keep the steel in the 7-w. Anyone else out there doing that?

 

Okay that’s all my thoughts and questing for now. Really appreciate the feedback!

 

 

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[LeftyRM7]

Sound like you have a lot going on in your head, I can relate to that. I’m not a fan of “swing overhauls” and tend to believe in the “swing your swing” theory. Especially if you’re single digit, what you’re doing can’t be that bad. The numbers don’t matter too much if it’s consistent and functional in my very unprofessional opinion. Fittings are great but expectations of performance gains is setting yourself up for failure. Fitting is based on your current clubs, so you’ll only see gains if they are ill fit. I like the idea of one length but it’s something you have to either commit to or not, hard to really know what is better over time. As far as the shafts, I’d recommend talking to a fitter about getting fit.

My advice to anyone looking for a fitter or a coach is do your homework. Research good pros in your area and make sure you’re getting the most out of your money. What company or club they work for can be misleading but a good pro will have a reputation. I see a lot of people with bad experiences, a lot of the time doing your homework can save you the headache.


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[Wedgie]

I’m far from an expert but I picked up a set of off the rack F9 one lengths about a month ago. Handicap is slowly dropping. I played baseball back in the day and never took any golf lessons and was down to a 7ish handicap last year. My thoughts are:

 

1. Work with what you’ve got and if you take lessons get an instructor that will work with what you’ve got. Keeping the swing as natural as possible in my opinion is best.

 

2. I took the F9s to a Club Champion after a few rounds and we found that a heavier shaft improved my efficiency and swing path. Waiting for them to come in and be reshafted but it made a very big difference in spin, height and center face contact. Swing speed even went up.

 

3. I’m over the top with irons, proper fit shaft and I’m still over the top but not as much.

 

4. Never tried it but once they are reshafted the 3 and 4 hybrids will be graphite and the 5-SW will be steel. If the steel works I might drop them in the single length hybrids but I will be able to compare in a week or so.

 

 

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[alfriday101]

Lefty was spot on saying there is a lot going on in the original post.  I'll try to parse things out a bit.  

 

1.  You had good ball striking, if not great last year.  What has changed?  You mention two things:  1.  Superspeed training and 2.  Focusing more on mechanics to affect a swing change.  Super speed training is good for improving speed, but a number of golfers complain about how it screws up their ball striking during the program.  Swinging all out with the sticks will do that.  You can stay with the program, just know that ball striking will lag until your mind and body adjust to the increased speed.  

 

Focusing more on mechanics can also mess with ball striking. This actually gets to the heart of a major issue in golf instruction.  Which comes first, better swing mechanics through conscious focus on certain movements in the swing, or does working on improved outcomes lead to improved mechanics.  For me, the latter certainly works better.  I will work on mechanics a bit at the beginning of a practice section, but quickly move on to more results based learning.  For example, I may rehearse a move in slow motion 5 or so times.  But I will quickly move on to a drill that improves and measures ball striking.  Improved mechanics are a result, not a cause.

 

Check out Adam Young and The Strike Plan.

 

Based on what you say, I would think staying with your current swing is the better path forward.  (Albeit, I would get a lesson from a coach to make sure what you think is happening really is happening).  That doesn't mean you swing won't change. You are a good golfer.  Your swing will naturally change and improve if you focus on outcomes.  

As for Question 2, it's hard to say.  It depends on how far off your current (stock) set is from your ideal set. I'm 6' 2" tall and play over length and upright standard irons.  In SL, I stayed with standard length SL irons, which makes them the same length as my over length VL 8 Iron.  I did get mine upright however.  (I did get fit for the SL irons). 

 

How big of an impact does a fitting make?  Again, it depends.  But I'll tell you a story that happened to me this summer.  About a month ago, I hit my gap wedge into the green and it faded quite a bit, which surprised me.  I thought I hit it dead on the flag.  The same thing happened a couple of days later.  I didn't worry about it too much, my swing isn't that good, after all.  A couple of days later I was at the range and I hit a SW right at the target.  I switched to my GW and the ball faded, even though I though I hit it about the same as I had with the SW.  I compared my LW and SW and found that my LW is a few degrees off in lie from the rest of my set.  I think I must have bent it when traveling.  Sometimes it is the arrow and not the archer.  If all my irons were the same as my LW, I would have to make compensations to get my desired result.   

 

It's possible your slight over the top move is learned to compensate for ill fitting equipment.  Or, you could just have a slight over the top move.  

 

Re question 3.  Some golfers play a fade, some a draw, some hit it straight as their predominant shot.  Consistent and repeatable is more desirable than changing to a different shot shape.

 

Here is a simple thing to try for a few weeks to see if it affects your OTT move.  When you go to the range, hit your normal shot.  Notice how it feels.  Then hit a draw--swing to first base. (Start out trying to hit as big a draw as you can to exaggerate the move.)   How does that feel different?  Keep alternating.  Add in hitting a fade.  How does that feel?  Change clubs and do the process over again.  Fade, draw, straight.  By noting the difference in how each feels, you will self correct and your stock shot should get closer to neutral.    

 

    

  

Edited July 11, 2020 by alfriday101

[twyatt700]

I do think they are set up a little short for me, I’m 6’1” and my previous set was extended 1/2”. After some work at the range and talking to a buddy who playing on in a mini tour I think I’ve got some stuff figured out. Felt a lot better... thank you all for the advice! Golf is so easy to start getting in your own head!
I noticed yesterday when I hit the draw I really hook it. So my club face is shut. I’m going to just keep working with what I got, got to the fitter to get some stuff optimized and see where I’m at after that. Thanks everyone for the advice! Glad to have other golf obsessed people to bounce thoughts off of!


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[WaffleHouseTour]

I’m a SL gamer since last summer.  My set is what my 8 iron length was - but I never had the lie angle checked.  Went to a local place to get that checked this summer and it wasn’t helpful - they don’t really know what do do with a single length set - so good luck with that.  He basically told me I should be playing variable length clubs... my complaint was that I’m really hoping/drawing the ball with my 5/6; and pushing my 7/8 and I wanted to be sure the lies were correct.  He told me my body was still swinging based on what it knew/remembered for variable lengths and that was causing two different moves.  I don’t buy it - but it’s his theory.

I am really curious what your results might be if you put graphite shafts into your “longer” introns.  I have thought of that myself, as my gaps really get smaller with my 5 and 6 irons.  I’d like to experiment with that, but am unsure what to try.  So if you proceed, or at least start trying to figure out what graphite shaft you want to use please share. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

4 minutes ago, WaffleHouseTour said:

I’m a SL gamer since last summer.  My set is what my 8 iron length was - but I never had the lie angle checked.  Went to a local place to get that checked this summer and it wasn’t helpful - they don’t really know what do do with a single length set - so good luck with that.  He basically told me I should be playing variable length clubs... my complaint was that I’m really hoping/drawing the ball with my 5/6; and pushing my 7/8 and I wanted to be sure the lies were correct.  He told me my body was still swinging based on what it knew/remembered for variable lengths and that was causing two different moves.  I don’t buy it - but it’s his theory.

I am really curious what your results might be if you put graphite shafts into your “longer” introns.  I have thought of that myself, as my gaps really get smaller with my 5 and 6 irons.  I’d like to experiment with that, but am unsure what to try.  So if you proceed, or at least start trying to figure out what graphite shaft you want to use please share. 

The bolder part was one of the knocks I had seen from reviews when single length became a hot topic. The less loft there was the more swing speed was needed to find a better gap. For the higher swing speeds it was in the 4-5 irons where it narrowed and in the mid irons for those with mid range swing speed. 

[LeftyRM7]

The bolder part was one of the knocks I had seen from reviews when single length became a hot topic. The less loft there was the more swing speed was needed to find a better gap. For the higher swing speeds it was in the 4-5 irons where it narrowed and in the mid irons for those with mid range swing speed. 

I would say that gapping issues in longer irons is a swing speed issue and not specific to one length. Obviously the shorter length doesn’t help, but a half inch of shaft isn’t going to solve the problem either.

Maybe someone could explain it to me if I missed something, but I never understood the loft/lie aspect of the one length test a few years back. They adjusted lie angles, which is supposed to be part of the one length equation, correct? But left the lofts the same, despite obvious gapping issues that may be solved by a simple loft adjustment.


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[RickyBobby_PR]

4 minutes ago, LeftyRM7 said:

I would say that gapping issues in longer irons is a swing speed issue and not specific to one length. Obviously the shorter length doesn’t help, but a half inch of shaft isn’t going to solve the problem either.

Maybe someone could explain it to me if I missed something, but I never understood the loft/lie aspect of the one length test a few years back. They adjusted lie angles, which is supposed to be part of the one length equation, correct? But left the lofts the same, despite obvious gapping issues that may be solved by a simple loft adjustment.


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While I agree that gapping issues in the longer irons can be related to swing speed in variable length there’s at least a 10 yard gap for most higher swing speed golfers. What I saw in videos was that there was a lot smaller gap for those guys in the 4-5 iron. Iirc Shiels only saw a 6 yard gap with a 4i from his 5i. For cobra they use 37.5” thru the set. Some of their other stock lengths are 39 or 39.25” for 4i. 
 

yes lofts are left the same. Lie angles I believe are player dependent But stock at least from Cobra is what’s their normal stock lie. 

[GolfSpy AFG]

Just two quick thoughts:  1) if you try this blended graphite/steel concept you're going to have to pay close attention to consistent swing weights across the set or it won't work.  Personally i don't think it's advisable, but that's me, and 2) The shallowing craze reminds me of the lag craze from a few years ago, in that incorporating them into the swing became all the rage.  I'm not saying shallowing or lag aren't desirable things, the problem becomes when people start trying to manufacture them rather than understanding they're natural byproducts of good swing fundamentals and sequencing.  Generally speaking, if one starts the swing from the ground up without excessive swing tension the club will shallow, rather than trying to shallow it by introducing an artificial arm drop or yanking motion into the swing.

Again, my two cents, i'm no coach.

[twyatt700]

Just two quick thoughts:  1) if you try this blended graphite/steel concept you're going to have to pay close attention to consistent swing weights across the set or it won't work.  Personally i don't think it's advisable, but that's me, and 2) The shallowing craze reminds me of the lag craze from a few years ago, in that incorporating them into the swing became all the rage.  I'm not saying shallowing or lag aren't desirable things, the problem becomes when people start trying to manufacture them rather than understanding they're natural byproducts of good swing fundamentals and sequencing.  Generally speaking, if one starts the swing from the ground up without excessive swing tension the club will shallow, rather than trying to shallow it by introducing an artificial arm drop or yanking motion into the swing.
Again, my two cents, i'm no coach.

That makes sense, I’m gathering the go with what you got and just work on the timing of your swing, that will create the desired path. It’s ironic that I used to be a high level baseball player and hitting instructor and that was my exact approach with my swing/students! My younger brother was very eager to point that out to me .
To your first point, I see you point with having changes in the shaft material and the issues that can arise. On the other hand, I kinda just want to try it to see what happens. I honestly love the feel of the graphite and the other day with track man it was nice to see improvements across the board on the lower lofted irons. My one issue with the OL is that for me my gapping at the top of the bag was very tight, after my session yesterday I think that will improve. And if my lower end bag suffers I’ll just switch them over too later. Not like my livelihood depends on it! I really appreciate the thoughts and feedback!


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[GolfSpy AFG]

1 minute ago, twyatt700 said:

That makes sense, I’m gathering the go with what you got and just work on the timing of your swing, that will create the desired path. It’s ironic that I used to be a high level baseball player and hitting instructor and that was my exact approach with my swing/students! My younger brother was very eager to point that out to me .
To your first point, I see you point with having changes in the shaft material and the issues that can arise. On the other hand, I kinda just want to try it to see what happens. I honestly love the feel of the graphite and the other day with track man it was nice to see improvements across the board on the lower lofted irons. My one issue with the OL is that for me my gapping at the top of the bag was very tight, after my session yesterday I think that will improve. And if my lower end bag suffers I’ll just switch them over too later. Not like my livelihood depends on it! I really appreciate the thoughts and feedback!


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You may want to give Aerotech Steelfiber shafts a look.  They are very much a best of both worlds shaft regarding graphite and steel properties. Not cheap though.

[aerospace_ray]

+1 for the Steelfibers. One of few graphite shafts that yield the weight with a consistent "steel shaft like feel" that I personally desire. Would think most golfers that are playing single length clubs desire consistency not only in club specs but the same "feel" club to club.....

[twyatt700]

+1 for the Steelfibers. One of few graphite shafts that yield the weight with a consistent "steel shaft like feel" that I personally desire. Would think most golfers that are playing single length clubs desire consistency not only in club specs but the same "feel" club to club.....

The thing is I really like the feel of the graphite. But the feel of the swing weight and set up with one length is very consistent, but impact definitely varies throughout the set, just because of the variances in the head design I think. I’m willing to try it cause it seems fun and if I need to switch the rest to graphite I’m good with that too!


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[aerospace_ray]

25 minutes ago, twyatt700 said:

The thing is I really like the feel of the graphite. But the feel of the swing weight and set up with one length is very consistent, but impact definitely varies throughout the set, just because of the variances in the head design I think. I’m willing to try it cause it seems fun and if I need to switch the rest to graphite I’m good with that too!


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Understood. I also like UST Recoil graphite. To me they do feel as what I expect traditional graphite to feel like.

My performance is more consistent with Steelfibers.vs Recoils. 

It took me awhile to get the Steelfibers dialed in. I tried many model Steelfibers at different weights until I figured out that I could  soft step some of the longer/mid shafts to get close to the feel I wanted while still achieving distance/dispersion needed. 

[twyatt700]

Understood. I also like UST Recoil graphite. To me they do feel as what I expect traditional graphite to feel like.
My performance is more consistent with Steelfibers.vs Recoils. 
It took me awhile to get the Steelfibers dialed in. I tried many model Steelfibers at different weights until I figured out that I could  soft step some of the longer/mid shafts to get close to the feel I wanted while still achieving distance/dispersion needed. 

Now you’re going over my head lol... I’m what you’d call a “feel” player that also loves the data when it pertains to the results. At some point it’s the archer not the arrow. But based on my baseball days, everyone is different. Some guys are super particular and guys like me just know if it feels good and can kinda adjust to the rest. Love learning more about this stuff though. So much to learn!


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[Grit Golf]

If you are excessively in to out it can be hard to make good contact (lots of fats and tops) because you will bottom out near your back foot. Even if you do manage good contact you will be hitting up on the ball which will kill your distance.

I was +2 to +4 AoA with my irons when I was 6 to 8 degrees in to out, which means the club was on the way up before it got to the ball, that’s worth 10-20 yards if your swing speed is the same in the new pattern. You also might lose clubhead speed figuring out the new pattern, especially if you are releasing out in front of you, or up and away from you (instead of pulling down and around you). 

I went through this exact thing over the course of a few years (2 up while I was out to in, then 2 flat while I was in to out, now standard but 1/2 short). Irons are now the strength of my game.

Id go see a fitter and make sure you tell them what swing change you’re working through!

[twyatt700]

If you are excessively in to out it can be hard to make good contact (lots of fats and tops) because you will bottom out near your back foot. Even if you do manage good contact you will be hitting up on the ball which will kill your distance.
I was +2 to +4 AoA with my irons when I was 6 to 8 degrees in to out, which means the club was on the way up before it got to the ball, that’s worth 10-20 yards if your swing speed is the same in the new pattern. You also might lose clubhead speed figuring out the new pattern, especially if you are releasing out in front of you, or up and away from you (instead of pulling down and around you). 
I went through this exact thing over the course of a few years (2 up while I was out to in, then 2 flat while I was in to out, now standard but 1/2 short). Irons are now the strength of my game.
Id go see a fitter and make sure you tell them what swing change you’re working through!

When I went I was -3 to 4 degrees on path which I’m assuming was out to in, but my face angle was square to slightly closed with the 1 up. I’ll probably need to make another adjustment later, but my swing looked better than I expected when I got on the track man.


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