Eliminate the DQ for an incorrect scorecard on the PGA Tour

[fixyurdivot]

On 8/11/2020 at 9:18 AM, DaveP043 said:

Its not about the money involved, Its a rule that effects every one of us who plays any kind of competitive stroke-play golf.

Presuming a tour player could actually get away with submitting an incorrect scorecard that results in his/her win, and considering winning purses in the millions, I think the money is very relative... but I get what you're saying.

 

7 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Those scores are kept by volunteers that follow the group and based on experience some of those volunteers struggle to enter the right score

I can attest to this having done scoring at one of the Boeing Classic events.  Particularly when penalty situations arise.

[SlowNLow]

4 hours ago, cnosil said:

 

That score is unofficial and has been know to be wrong. Those scores are kept by volunteers that follow the group and based on experience some of those volunteers struggle to enter the right score.

 

`

 

4 hours ago, fixyurdivot said:

Presuming a tour player could actually get away with submitting an incorrect scorecard that results in his/her win, and considering winning purses in the millions, I think the money is very relative... but I get what you're saying.

 

I can attest to this having done scoring at one of the Boeing Classic events.  Particularly when penalty situations arise.

Did that volunteer who reported the wrong score get kicked out of the tournament?

 

[cnosil]

19 minutes ago, SlowNLow said:

`Did that volunteer who reported the wrong score get kicked out of the tournament?

 

No,  but there is no intention of that score being considered official; it is intended for stats and media outlets.  During the training the volunteers are told that it is not official but to do your best.  The volunteers are not supposed to interact with the players and there are situations were you cannot see everything and need to get with the caddies to try and understand what was done regarding relief and drops.  Sometimes the volunteer will use their own judgement.  

[sixcat]

14 hours ago, SlowNLow said:

A guy in Antarctica can find out a player's score hole by hole via the Web before a player gets to the scoring tent.   

Just offering an example of how this can be problematic.

Preston Summerhays shot an even par round of 71 Monday in the medal play portion of the US Amateur at Bandon.  His score on the USGA website reflected a +4 round of 75 for several hours after play concluded for the day.  The volunteer walking scorer for P's group had entered a bogey on #3 which should have been a birdie, a bogey on #9 that should have been a par and a double on #16 that should have been a bogey.

It took the USGA an hour to sort the mess out.  Evidently, the walking scorer got some of the players in P's group confused for one another.

[HardcoreLooper]

If my 12 year old daughter and the girls she plays against in junior tournaments can make this work, PGA Tour pros should be able to handle it.  

[revkev]

They read the scores to each other.   They generally read them off in bunches of 3.  

I did know that, one of those rhetorical questions that didn’t come out right in a post - sorry.

When I first saw this thread I thought, “it is a harsh penalty.” But honestly the more I think about it accurately reporting and keeping one’s own score is Avery basic requirement for a sport that’s supposed to be self governing.

I really don’t see a fair penalty for submitting the wrong score after the final round other than having to live with it if too high and a DQ if too low.


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[xOldBenKenobiX]

On 8/7/2020 at 5:08 PM, GolfSpy MPR said:

With Cameron Tringale being DQ'd from the PGA Championship today for signing an incorrect scorecard, I want to ask: why in the world is this still a rule on the PGA Tour? In my opinion, this a rule that has long since ceased being useful at the top level of the game, when there's zero question about what a guy actually shot.

When is the last time that, on the PGA Tour, a guy signed an incorrect card on purpose to try to gain an advantage? You can't possibly get away with it. So if it's not possible to cheat this way, why DQ a guy for it?

Obviously, in *most* golf events played at every level other than the PGA Tour, this rule absolutely makes sense. There aren't rules officials all over the course. It would be possible for a guy to cheat by signing a fraudulent score, and so it is absolutely essential that the competitors turn in an honest card. That does make golf different than other sports.

But on the PGA Tour level? I just don't get it. Can someone make an argument that this should be part of the game on the highest pro tour?

Right now we are on Tha intersection of the rules that have been always part of the game, and the evolution of the game, to the point that some other members have made, with all of the eyes watching every single shot of the pros, there is virtually no chance of submitting a Lower score card on purpose and getting away with it. 

It is a rule that I'm okay with it going away. 

[DaveP043]

25 minutes ago, xOldBenKenobiX said:

Right now we are on Tha intersection of the rules that have been always part of the game, and the evolution of the game, to the point that some other members have made, with all of the eyes watching every single shot of the pros, there is virtually no chance of submitting a Lower score card on purpose and getting away with it. 

It is a rule that I'm okay with it going away. 

For everyone?  For the US Amateur stroke play rounds, with almost no spectators and relatively few officials?  For your local stroke-play handicap event?   And with a player, a marker, a caddie, and all of those other eyes, is it really too tough for the player to actually get his own score right?  I don't see a real problem with the rule.

[xOldBenKenobiX]

25 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

For everyone?  For the US Amateur stroke play rounds, with almost no spectators and relatively few officials?  For your local stroke-play handicap event?   And with a player, a marker, a caddie, and all of those other eyes, is it really too tough for the player to actually get his own score right?  I don't see a real problem with the rule.

To clarify, for the pros on the PGA Tour Dave, as for the rest of the golf world, yes it is very easy for a recreational player to "shave" a few strokes off their score cards in purpose. 

I think that score cards are needed, but in case of a discrepancy, DQ is a little too far. 

A couple of strokes per misreported hole on top of the correct score, would on my opinion be the more appropriate punishment. 

[DaveP043]

11 hours ago, xOldBenKenobiX said:

To clarify, for the pros on the PGA Tour Dave, as for the rest of the golf world, yes it is very easy for a recreational player to "shave" a few strokes off their score cards in purpose. 

I think that score cards are needed, but in case of a discrepancy, DQ is a little too far. 

A couple of strokes per misreported hole on top of the correct score, would on my opinion be the more appropriate punishment. 

I still continue to believe that one of the best things about golf is that the same set of rules apply to all golfers.  To change the scoring requirement would be a first step towards bifurcation.  Beyond that, where do you draw the line?  At which level of competition does the penalty change? 

The general principle regarding penalty strokes is that the penalty for an infraction should be greater than the advantage a player might gain from the infraction.  In this case, a player might win a tournament by posting a wrong score.  I think a DQ is the appropriate penalty, given the potential advantage.  Its simply not that difficult to get the score right.

Oh, its also important to remember that if you post an incorrect score because you unknowingly committed an infraction, you do NOT get the DQ, you simply get those penalty strokes added to the score you posted.  That was changed for the 2019 rules, decreasing the penalty from DQ.

[xOldBenKenobiX]

8 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I still continue to believe that one of the best things about golf is that the same set of rules apply to all golfers.  To change the scoring requirement would be a first step towards bifurcation.  Beyond that, where do you draw the line?  At which level of competition does the penalty change? 

The general principle regarding penalty strokes is that the penalty for an infraction should be greater than the advantage a player might gain from the infraction.  In this case, a player might win a tournament by posting a wrong score.  I think a DQ is the appropriate penalty, given the potential advantage.  Its simply not that difficult to get the score right.

Oh, its also important to remember that if you post an incorrect score because you unknowingly committed an infraction, you do NOT get the DQ, you simply get those penalty strokes added to the score you posted.  That was changed for the 2019 rules, decreasing the penalty from DQ.

I honestly was not aware of that last rule change, thank you for clarifying Dave.