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Eliminate the DQ for an incorrect scorecard on the PGA Tour


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I have no issue with the rule as-is.  It's just not that difficult to review your card after the round before signing.  By the time guys reach the PGA Tour, they have been reviewing and signing scorecards for more than a decade.  It's not like it's a new thing for them.  

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Yeah, but if a team's scorer messes up the scoring, the team doesn't get an automatic L.

I don't care one way or the other but: Not every player is recorded Rules officials aren't with every group. why do you think there is zero question on what a player shot?  

With Cameron Tringale being DQ'd from the PGA Championship today for signing an incorrect scorecard, I want to ask: why in the world is this still a rule on the PGA Tour? In my opinion, this a rule th

On 8/8/2020 at 3:58 PM, greggarner said:

This is a good point. I've volunteered as a walking scorer before and while those scores are live-updating the digital scoreboard, I was explicitly told to interact with the players as little as possible. The players keeping each other's cards have the official score and I always saw that as part of the sportsmanship.

That being said, I'm a proponent of addition errors should be corrected, no penalty. Wrong scores should stay higher if incorrectly high and should incur a 2-shot penalty added to the correct score if incorrectly low. If a player and a competitor discuss the score and both *sign* the card, it's more akin to, at worst, conspiracy and more likely absentmindedness than outright cheating. (I once refused to sign a card when I knew my competitor was lying and we had to get an arbiter to resolve the dispute. I was right, he was wrong.)

Addition errors are explicitly the responsibility of the Committee, all the player is required to do is to report the correct score on each hole.

I don't see a problem with the rules as it stands.  I'm  a big believer in the idea of a single set of rules to cover the entire game, not separate rules for the PGA Tour, and as most have said, the scorecard rule is absolutely appropriate for just about all golf.  And its really not complicated to keep track of your own scores, and to check them against what your scorer has written down before signing the card.

11 hours ago, revkev said:

I totally missed this. Who discovered that he had signed for the wrong score?

Apparently Tringale himself noticed the error, after the fact.

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/pga-championship-2020-cameron-tringale-disqualified-signing-incorrect-scorecard-dq-tpc-harding-park

The article mentions that he's made the same mistake before.  

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It does seem a bit harsh - particularly so if just an honest mistake.  But these guys have themselves and their caddie to double check at the end of a hole (they can even confer with the playing partners), so it really dosen't seem to be such a momentous task to get it correct.  Considering the kind of $$$$ involved with tour events, perhaps having this consequence is needed.

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9 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

The article mentions that he's made the same mistake before.  

Insert related "Georgia Tech" joke here!

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3 hours ago, fixyurdivot said:

It does seem a bit harsh - particularly so if just an honest mistake.  But these guys have themselves and their caddie to double check at the end of a hole (they can even confer with the playing partners), so it really dosen't seem to be such a momentous task to get it correct.  Considering the kind of $$$$ involved with tour events, perhaps having this consequence is needed.

Its not about the money involved, Its a rule that effects every one of us who plays any kind of competitive stroke-play golf.  We don't have the luxury of a caddie, of walking scorers, of any of the assistance the Tour players do, yet the rules expect each one of use to be able to report the correct score on each hole.  Its about doing a simple task properly, with a clearly defined consequence for failure. 

The rule was actually eased up within my memory.  Prior to 1988, if you reported a wrong score for a hole, either higher or lower, you got DQ.  Starting in 1988, you got DQ for reporting a score lower than you actually made, but if you report a higher score, that score stands as reported.

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It seems to me that if I were a player I’d rather have control over things than allowing others to do it for me - if there’s going to be a mistake it should be my own. But whenever it matters we check one another at the end of the round. Don’t guys on tour do that?

Shouldn’t each say to the other - I had you for a 71? Whatever it is?

I agree that the penalty seems severe so what would you counter proposal be? No penalty? A number of strokes?

I’d be inclined to leave it as is.


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3 hours ago, revkev said:

It seems to me that if I were a player I’d rather have control over things than allowing others to do it for me - if there’s going to be a mistake it should be my own. But whenever it matters we check one another at the end of the round. Don’t guys on tour do that?

Shouldn’t each say to the other - I had you for a 71? Whatever it is?
 

They read the scores to each other.   They generally read them off in bunches of 3.  

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I think it's a wholly imaginary thing that the game is not already significantly bifurcated. TV coverage exists to enough extent that it has had impact on rulings. There are always grounds changes (stands, TV gear, concessions, sponsor stuff) that affect how the course plays. Usually, there are fans around to trample rough and find lost balls. Frankly, they always have caddies giving them advice (yes, a small percentage of us non-pros get that, but really, that's a minority of golf play, if we're honest.) Each of those is a bigger deal and has a bigger impact on the real outcome of the game than score keeping.

Effectively, I don't buy the argument that this is an aspect that makes the game that they play the same as it is for us. In more ways and in more significant ways than the scorecard, it's not. Having a pro DQd because of this when the technology and staffing already exists to make it go away is just silly. Stupid, really.

 

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6 hours ago, TeeBrain said:

 

I think it's a wholly imaginary thing that the game is not already significantly bifurcated. TV coverage exists to enough extent that it has had impact on rulings. There are always grounds changes (stands, TV gear, concessions, sponsor stuff) that affect how the course plays. Usually, there are fans around to trample rough and find lost balls. Frankly, they always have caddies giving them advice (yes, a small percentage of us non-pros get that, but really, that's a minority of golf play, if we're honest.) Each of those is a bigger deal and has a bigger impact on the real outcome of the game than score keeping.

Effectively, I don't buy the argument that this is an aspect that makes the game that they play the same as it is for us. In more ways and in more significant ways than the scorecard, it's not. Having a pro DQd because of this when the technology and staffing already exists to make it go away is just silly. Stupid, really.

 

I agree with you. 

Maybe in the days of old it was considering cheating if a scorecard was wrong.   But now?   A guy in Antarctica can find out a player's score hole by hole via the Web before a player gets to the scoring tent.   

Other players in other sports don't have to keep track of the scores, like bowlers..    Basketball players don't keep track how points they had, but they do need to know what the score is of course, just ask JR Smith.  😩

No doubt we normal people still need score cards, and we need to check them.   We are in a different world.  And we have to lug the bag from the parking lot, apply the rules on our own, clean club faces, rake traps, replace divots, tend pins,  wash our golf balls, etc.  (and pay for our own lunch)

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  But now?   A guy in Antarctica can find out a player's score hole by hole via the Web before a player gets to the scoring tent.   


That score is unofficial and has been know to be wrong. Those scores are kept by volunteers that follow the group and based on experience some of those volunteers struggle to enter the right score.
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On 8/11/2020 at 9:18 AM, DaveP043 said:

Its not about the money involved, Its a rule that effects every one of us who plays any kind of competitive stroke-play golf.

Presuming a tour player could actually get away with submitting an incorrect scorecard that results in his/her win, and considering winning purses in the millions, I think the money is very relative... but I get what you're saying.

 

7 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Those scores are kept by volunteers that follow the group and based on experience some of those volunteers struggle to enter the right score

I can attest to this having done scoring at one of the Boeing Classic events.  Particularly when penalty situations arise.

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4 hours ago, cnosil said:

 


That score is unofficial and has been know to be wrong. Those scores are kept by volunteers that follow the group and based on experience some of those volunteers struggle to enter the right score.

 

`

 

4 hours ago, fixyurdivot said:

Presuming a tour player could actually get away with submitting an incorrect scorecard that results in his/her win, and considering winning purses in the millions, I think the money is very relative... but I get what you're saying.

 

I can attest to this having done scoring at one of the Boeing Classic events.  Particularly when penalty situations arise.

Did that volunteer who reported the wrong score get kicked out of the tournament?

 

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19 minutes ago, SlowNLow said:

`Did that volunteer who reported the wrong score get kicked out of the tournament?

 

No,  but there is no intention of that score being considered official; it is intended for stats and media outlets.  During the training the volunteers are told that it is not official but to do your best.  The volunteers are not supposed to interact with the players and there are situations were you cannot see everything and need to get with the caddies to try and understand what was done regarding relief and drops.  Sometimes the volunteer will use their own judgement.  

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14 hours ago, SlowNLow said:

A guy in Antarctica can find out a player's score hole by hole via the Web before a player gets to the scoring tent.   

Just offering an example of how this can be problematic.

Preston Summerhays shot an even par round of 71 Monday in the medal play portion of the US Amateur at Bandon.  His score on the USGA website reflected a +4 round of 75 for several hours after play concluded for the day.  The volunteer walking scorer for P's group had entered a bogey on #3 which should have been a birdie, a bogey on #9 that should have been a par and a double on #16 that should have been a bogey.

It took the USGA an hour to sort the mess out.  Evidently, the walking scorer got some of the players in P's group confused for one another.

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If my 12 year old daughter and the girls she plays against in junior tournaments can make this work, PGA Tour pros should be able to handle it.  

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They read the scores to each other.   They generally read them off in bunches of 3.  


I did know that, one of those rhetorical questions that didn’t come out right in a post - sorry.

When I first saw this thread I thought, “it is a harsh penalty.” But honestly the more I think about it accurately reporting and keeping one’s own score is Avery basic requirement for a sport that’s supposed to be self governing.

I really don’t see a fair penalty for submitting the wrong score after the final round other than having to live with it if too high and a DQ if too low.


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On 8/7/2020 at 5:08 PM, GolfSpy MPR said:

With Cameron Tringale being DQ'd from the PGA Championship today for signing an incorrect scorecard, I want to ask: why in the world is this still a rule on the PGA Tour? In my opinion, this a rule that has long since ceased being useful at the top level of the game, when there's zero question about what a guy actually shot.

When is the last time that, on the PGA Tour, a guy signed an incorrect card on purpose to try to gain an advantage? You can't possibly get away with it. So if it's not possible to cheat this way, why DQ a guy for it?

Obviously, in *most* golf events played at every level other than the PGA Tour, this rule absolutely makes sense. There aren't rules officials all over the course. It would be possible for a guy to cheat by signing a fraudulent score, and so it is absolutely essential that the competitors turn in an honest card. That does make golf different than other sports.

But on the PGA Tour level? I just don't get it. Can someone make an argument that this should be part of the game on the highest pro tour?

Right now we are on Tha intersection of the rules that have been always part of the game, and the evolution of the game, to the point that some other members have made, with all of the eyes watching every single shot of the pros, there is virtually no chance of submitting a Lower score card on purpose and getting away with it. 

It is a rule that I'm okay with it going away. 

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25 minutes ago, xOldBenKenobiX said:

Right now we are on Tha intersection of the rules that have been always part of the game, and the evolution of the game, to the point that some other members have made, with all of the eyes watching every single shot of the pros, there is virtually no chance of submitting a Lower score card on purpose and getting away with it. 

It is a rule that I'm okay with it going away. 

For everyone?  For the US Amateur stroke play rounds, with almost no spectators and relatively few officials?  For your local stroke-play handicap event?   And with a player, a marker, a caddie, and all of those other eyes, is it really too tough for the player to actually get his own score right?  I don't see a real problem with the rule.

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25 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

For everyone?  For the US Amateur stroke play rounds, with almost no spectators and relatively few officials?  For your local stroke-play handicap event?   And with a player, a marker, a caddie, and all of those other eyes, is it really too tough for the player to actually get his own score right?  I don't see a real problem with the rule.

To clarify, for the pros on the PGA Tour Dave, as for the rest of the golf world, yes it is very easy for a recreational player to "shave" a few strokes off their score cards in purpose. 

I think that score cards are needed, but in case of a discrepancy, DQ is a little too far. 

A couple of strokes per misreported hole on top of the correct score, would on my opinion be the more appropriate punishment. 

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11 hours ago, xOldBenKenobiX said:

To clarify, for the pros on the PGA Tour Dave, as for the rest of the golf world, yes it is very easy for a recreational player to "shave" a few strokes off their score cards in purpose. 

I think that score cards are needed, but in case of a discrepancy, DQ is a little too far. 

A couple of strokes per misreported hole on top of the correct score, would on my opinion be the more appropriate punishment. 

I still continue to believe that one of the best things about golf is that the same set of rules apply to all golfers.  To change the scoring requirement would be a first step towards bifurcation.  Beyond that, where do you draw the line?  At which level of competition does the penalty change? 

The general principle regarding penalty strokes is that the penalty for an infraction should be greater than the advantage a player might gain from the infraction.  In this case, a player might win a tournament by posting a wrong score.  I think a DQ is the appropriate penalty, given the potential advantage.  Its simply not that difficult to get the score right.

Oh, its also important to remember that if you post an incorrect score because you unknowingly committed an infraction, you do NOT get the DQ, you simply get those penalty strokes added to the score you posted.  That was changed for the 2019 rules, decreasing the penalty from DQ.

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