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Smooth Face vs Grooved/Milled Faced Putters


Joemiper

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My game on the greens has never been bad, but there are certainly days it could be better. I have been playing a smooth faced Ping Anser for years... so long it could probably be considered vintage.

I recently played a rental set in Vegas that included a Cleveland with a milled/grooved face. Now granted it was a single round sample but, it certainly felt at the end of the day like a great day putting. Is there any real advantage(s) to a grooved over smooth faced putter?

Thanx all in advance. 

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some grooves (live EVNRoll Putters) actually do serve a specific purpose, so I'd yes in some cases for sure

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I believe the answer is depends.   The original purpose of milling a face is to help ensure that the face is flat.  This was important in the days of cast putters as it was just a final step in ensuring a consistent face angle across the entire putter.    Then milling became decorative patterns to look cool with no real performance benefits.   As putter makers experimented with grooves,  it was discovered that it could impact the feel/sound of the putter.   Then grooves started to be used to impact performance.   By altering the pattern of the grooves,  manufacturers found that it could potentially influence roll and ball speed to help compensate for mishits.       So some grooves are for decoration and some are intended to enhance performance.  

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I’ve always been a big believer in some type of face groove tech. I played with a Rife Aussie for years and then switched to a Wilson Infinite Mich. Ave and, while I puttered fairly well with it, it never felt like money. I’m in an ER7 now and I love it. I feel pretty confident most days on the green.


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I have always preferred a smooth face putter.  Probably because it is what I first used when I took up th game.  I have tried putters with milled faces and for some reason do not putt as well.  Probably a mental thing..........like so many other aspects of this game.

 

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I'm a couch golfer that believes the smooth face putters are great on bent greens that get the ball rolling without a lot of grain interference. Pros use them frequently because they play on the best surfaces and the initial roll off the face is consistent on those greens. For us general public folks that might play on slower greens or bermuda greens that have a lot of grain in them, we need grooves or a more severe milling to get that ball rolling consistently on less than stellar surfaces. I play on grainy bermuda greens and always looked for something to get the ball rolling quicker. I played Evnrolls, TM Spiders and Odyssey O-Works, all with technology for consistent roll off the face.

Could I just be a head case and this is all between the ears? More than likely. 

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I'm a couch golfer that believes the smooth face putters are great on bent greens that get the ball rolling without a lot of grain interference. Pros use them frequently because they play on the best surfaces and the initial roll off the face is consistent on those greens. For us general public folks that might play on slower greens or bermuda greens that have a lot of grain in them, we need grooves or a more severe milling to get that ball rolling consistently on less than stellar surfaces. I play on grainy bermuda greens and always looked for something to get the ball rolling quicker. I played Evnrolls, TM Spiders and Odyssey O-Works, all with technology for consistent roll off the face.

Could I just be a head case and this is all between the ears? More than likely. 

Which do you game with the most. I’ve got an O-Works 1, but I’ve been committing to cross handed grip so I need a new putter that is a touch shorter (but I want to keep the O in case I want/need to switch back to a traditional grip). The Evnroll is very tempting in my time playing around with it at PGA, but I’ve also liked the Sigma 2 and the Cleveland Frontline. There are others that I have played around with like the Taylormade TP, the Mizuno M, SL Black, etc.

 

I’ve got a Toulon Austin that I won on the Bay that is stuck in the nebula of the USPS Dallas Distribution center and apparently can’t make it the 30 minutes to Frisco in more than a week. Not sure if they can add about an inch on to it but keep the stroke lab shaft and swing weight so may just turn around and move that one.

 

In any event, the Evnrolls have really been calling my name as I playing in the Dallas area on varying quality greens, so something with some level of face tech seems to be arguably beneficial. So, just curious about what your current and/or preferred putter is, or has been.

 

On an unrelated note, my wife is a Baylor alum.

 

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No difference, really.  While having face grooves may make it feel softer, theres really no evidence to indicate that its going to give the ball a more true roll or help you to make more putts.

"I suppose its better to be a master of 7 than to be vaguely familiar with 14." - Chick Evans

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Which do you game with the most. I’ve got an O-Works 1, but I’ve been committing to cross handed grip so I need a new putter that is a touch shorter (but I want to keep the O in case I want/need to switch back to a traditional grip). The Evnroll is very tempting in my time playing around with it at PGA, but I’ve also liked the Sigma 2 and the Cleveland Frontline. There are others that I have played around with like the Taylormade TP, the Mizuno M, SL Black, etc.
 
I’ve got a Toulon Austin that I won on the Bay that is stuck in the nebula of the USPS Dallas Distribution center and apparently can’t make it the 30 minutes to Frisco in more than a week. Not sure if they can add about an inch on to it but keep the stroke lab shaft and swing weight so may just turn around and move that one.
 
In any event, the Evnrolls have really been calling my name as I playing in the Dallas area on varying quality greens, so something with some level of face tech seems to be arguably beneficial. So, just curious about what your current and/or preferred putter is, or has been.
 
On an unrelated note, my wife is a Baylor alum.
 
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I loved my Evnroll ER6B and the ability to change the head weight. My preference is a head weight around 370g at 35.5" and that's not available in most putters. The Evnroll grooves in addition to the heavier insert on the ER6B gave me what I was looking for. However my swing has changed a bit and now I need a little toe hang. I now game the ping vault arna and it would be the perfect fit if it had the Evnroll grooves. I tacked on about 14g of lead tape on it to get it to my swing weight.

I can't remember who exactly performed the test, but someone on Twitter did an impact roll study on Evnroll, o works and a few other putters and the Evnroll had the most consistent roll and o works was all over the place. Every now and then I'd hit the o works and almost catch like a flyer out of the rough.

The main problem was feel for me on the o works... But this was one of the first generations of it. Very dead feeling off the face. The newer versions are a little bit more responsive.

If Evnroll made a lefty mid mallet in black, in the head weight I liked and a little toe hang, I'd go back in a heart beat. However, the ER6 is a very solid feeling mallet and I've gamed the ER5 which does have a noticably different feel to it. A little bit more firm and louder at impact. It's definitely a personal preference.

Sic em!


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10 hours ago, txgolfjunkie said:

 


I loved my Evnroll ER6B and the ability to change the head weight. My preference is a head weight around 370g at 35.5" and that's not available in most putters. The Evnroll grooves in addition to the heavier insert on the ER6B gave me what I was looking for. However my swing has changed a bit and now I need a little toe hang. I now game the ping vault arna and it would be the perfect fit if it had the Evnroll grooves. I tacked on about 14g of lead tape on it to get it to my swing weight.

I can't remember who exactly performed the test, but someone on Twitter did an impact roll study on Evnroll, o works and a few other putters and the Evnroll had the most consistent roll and o works was all over the place. Every now and then I'd hit the o works and almost catch like a flyer out of the rough.

The main problem was feel for me on the o works... But this was one of the first generations of it. Very dead feeling off the face. The newer versions are a little bit more responsive.

If Evnroll made a lefty mid mallet in black, in the head weight I liked and a little toe hang, I'd go back in a heart beat. However, the ER6 is a very solid feeling mallet and I've gamed the ER5 which does have a noticably different feel to it. A little bit more firm and louder at impact. It's definitely a personal preference.

Sic em!


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I agree on the O Works - mine is one of the older versions where you can see the two weights on the sole, and it often feels dead off the face with no feedback.

I'm really tempted by the ER1.2B in about 36 to 36.5, because I like the idea of the face tech but I'm finding I'm not a huge fan of most of the inserts.

I've got a used Toulon Austin that is supposed to be delivered today, so I may tinker with that to see if I can get the length and weighting right for what I like and see how that goes. But if I can't make it work to my liking, a 1.2B is definitely on the radar.

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IMHO

NO, a putt with grooves does not strike the golf ball with enough force for the grooves to "grip" the ball cover. 

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I have four grooved putters that I have played that for whatever reason (the grooves or not) my putting distance control and accuracy were consistent versus several other"grooved" and non-grooved milled faced putters. The four I had success with were a Ping TR, Evenroll, Tad Moore and Bobby Grace. I can't explain the why but for me those putters helped me. But I would not play those four putters on fast bent grass greens with a lot break. On faster bent grass I did horrible and putted through my lines. For fast bent grass I prefer either my TP Mills #12 (non grooved) or my old reliable 8802 Wilson(definitely not grooved). On Bermuda greens with grain I like my Callaway TT 10. Below is a good MGS link that discusses Ping/Evnroll and their groove designs. 

https://mygolfspy.com/2017-evnroll-putter-test/   

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 8/16/2020 at 4:37 PM, ZenGolfer said:

No difference, really.  While having face grooves may make it feel softer, theres really no evidence to indicate that its going to give the ball a more true roll or help you to make more putts.

I would have to disagree based on Evnroll grooves creating an even distance control across the face where other putters will lose distance on off-center strikes. 

Back to the poster's question: smooth or grooved. 

Tiger Woods and Jack Nicklaus = smooth

Taylormade, Evnroll, Ping Sigma 2.0 all with grooves. 

My experience is that Evnroll grooves weaken the impact on center strikes to allow off-center strikes to travel the same distance.

My experience with Taylormade Truroll faces do roll farther than my Evnroll with the same stroke. This is why it took some time to adjust from that putter to my Evnroll.

I can guess that the feedback from a smooth face in the hands of a pro, like Tiger, give them the necessary response to help them fix their technique. The downside being any miss off the sweet spot results in a put going offline and short. 

Evnroll grooves solve that problem keeping off-center strikes online and the same distance as center strikes. 

Ping Sigma 2.0 grooves on the face correct for off-center strikes for direction but not distance so they still go straight. 

Sik putters have different face angles from the bottom to the top of the face to put consistent loft on the strike depending on how high on the face you hit it - Dechambeu uses it. 

Axis putters have a large weight near the hosel to move the center of gravity to the face instead of behind the face like most putters. 

The reality of innovation, marketing hype, and results are that sometimes they intersect and sometimes they don't. 

Grooves do something.

MOI matters.

Weight matters.

Length matters.

Center of gravity matters.

Shape matters.

 

The problem arises that each matters differently to different people. 

Finding the problem which technology can help fix is the journey. 

 

Golf is simple - people are complicated.

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On 9/9/2020 at 3:45 AM, Buffly said:

I would have to disagree based on Evnroll grooves creating an even distance control across the face where other putters will lose distance on off-center strikes. 

Back to the poster's question: smooth or grooved. 

Tiger Woods and Jack Nicklaus = smooth

Taylormade, Evnroll, Ping Sigma 2.0 all with grooves. 

My experience is that Evnroll grooves weaken the impact on center strikes to allow off-center strikes to travel the same distance.

My experience with Taylormade Truroll faces do roll farther than my Evnroll with the same stroke. This is why it took some time to adjust from that putter to my Evnroll.

I can guess that the feedback from a smooth face in the hands of a pro, like Tiger, give them the necessary response to help them fix their technique. The downside being any miss off the sweet spot results in a put going offline and short. 

Evnroll grooves solve that problem keeping off-center strikes online and the same distance as center strikes. 

Ping Sigma 2.0 grooves on the face correct for off-center strikes for direction but not distance so they still go straight. 

Sik putters have different face angles from the bottom to the top of the face to put consistent loft on the strike depending on how high on the face you hit it - Dechambeu uses it. 

Axis putters have a large weight near the hosel to move the center of gravity to the face instead of behind the face like most putters. 

The reality of innovation, marketing hype, and results are that sometimes they intersect and sometimes they don't. 

Grooves do something.

MOI matters.

Weight matters.

Length matters.

Center of gravity matters.

Shape matters.

 

The problem arises that each matters differently to different people. 

Finding the problem which technology can help fix is the journey. 

 

I hate to break this to you but ALL modern putters give you less loss of distance on off-center hits.  Some do it with MOI. some do it with variable groove depth; as Im sure Evenroll does.  I personally question how much any of that supposed new and better tech actually does.  IMO, its much more hype and marketing than it is actual substance and truth.

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Hybrid: Mizuno MP Fli-Hi 3H

Irons: Mizuno T-Zoid True 5, 7 and 9-irons

Wedge: Mizuno S18 54* and Top Flite chipper

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6 minutes ago, ZenGolfer said:

I hate to break this to you but ALL modern putters give you less loss of distance on off-center hits.  Some do it with MOI. some do it with variable groove depth; as Im sure Evenroll does.   (Tech helps)

 

I personally question how much any of that supposed new and better tech actually does.  IMO, its much more hype and marketing than it is actual substance and truth.  (Tech doesn''t  help)

You kind of lost me with your response.  In one statement you say all modern putters use various techniques to improve the roll.  In another statement you say is is all hype and marketing.   Based on the last statement you seem to be more in the marketing/hype camp.    Not sure what you classify as a modern putter, but there are still putters that don't provide forgiveness on off center hits. 

I learned a lot about putters and putting from my putting instructor and putter design has a big influence on the stroke and how a putter performs.  There have been videos from both EvnRoll and Ping that show how grooves impact distance and ball speed.  High MOI putters have been shown to reduce twisting of a putter which helps equalize distance on off center hits but there is still a loss of distance.  

 

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14 hours ago, ZenGolfer said:

I hate to break this to you but ALL modern putters give you less loss of distance on off-center hits.  Some do it with MOI. some do it with variable groove depth; as Im sure Evenroll does.  I personally question how much any of that supposed new and better tech actually does.  IMO, its much more hype and marketing than it is actual substance and truth.

Where are you getting information that supports your statement? What proof do you have that supports your statement? 

I question your conclusions and, I feel your statements come off as opinion rather than fact. I am open to being proven wrong. Unfortunately, I see no proof in your response. 

My response was based on hours and hours of watching YouTube videos on putter fitting, practice, and trying different putters on many different occasions. 

But, don't take my word on it. Try it yourself. Try hitting 3 balls with the same stroke in 3 different spots on the face without looking where they go to compensate and, repeat that about 10 to 20 times (30-60 balls).

You will find that the balls struck in the sweet spot will go farther and straighter unless you are using Evnroll. My Evnroll Putter puts them in a tight group. My Taylormade, Mizuno, and Ping old Anser putters do not put them in a tight group. 

Check out Adam's rant: 

 

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20 hours ago, ZenGolfer said:

I hate to break this to you but ALL modern putters give you less loss of distance on off-center hits.  Some do it with MOI. some do it with variable groove depth; as Im sure Evenroll does.  I personally question how much any of that supposed new and better tech actually does.  IMO, its much more hype and marketing than it is actual substance and truth.

While you’re right MOI helps with off center hits, the Evnroll face does more than MOI alone can. There are several objective demonstrations online by Evnroll and independent tests that clearly show the results - it’s not a subtle difference. Are you suggesting they’re all manipulating the outcomes somehow? The Evnroll face feels softer and putts a tiny bit shorter on center, but that allows more consistency in direction and distance when hit off center than any groove less putter (or comparable MOI).

https://youtu.be/VQfBnmuC464

 

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ive been told by 3 different custom fitter....Mills, Bettinardi and Lamb the face means very little.....the ball means everything....get fit for a ball and worry mainly about putter length and weight.....

i have a nice lightly milled TP mills puter that works great....

Golf is cool

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ive been told by 3 different custom fitter....Mills, Bettinardi and Lamb the face means very little.....the ball means everything....get fit for a ball and worry mainly about putter length and weight.....

i have a nice lightly milled TP mills puter that works great....

Not saying those aren’t great putters or knowledgeable guys. I could add names like Guerin Rife and Bobby Grace who would say face is important. According to Dean Snell; feedback on this provided in another thread, same putter and different ball will show little difference.

 

Do you have to have grooves? Definitely not but if it helps you control speed a little bit then why not?

 

Find the putter that lets you control speed then you have the right putter regardless of whether it has grooves or not.

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4 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Not saying those aren’t great putters or knowledgeable guys. I could add names like Guerin Rife and Bobby Grace who would say face is important. According to Dean Snell; feedback on this provided in another thread, same putter and different ball will show little difference.

 

Do you have to have grooves? Definitely not but if it helps you control speed a little bit then why not?

 

Find the putter that lets you control speed then you have the right putter regardless of whether it has grooves or not.

I hear ya. They all just said the impact is so minimal, its not noticeable for 99% of the amateur players.....pros i guess but you see Tigers putter right? its basically grooveless... i gues to each his own.  I also have an 8802 putter with deper grooves and i love the feel of it....feel is everything to me when putting....

Golf is cool

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13 hours ago, tschott4 said:

Has anyone else tried Bobby Grace putters with his grooved face. I've had a few different ones and they put a great roll on the ball. 

I have a friend with a few of them. He has let me try them from time to time. They are well designed and well crafted. I would go further to say that the roll is a combination of the parts more than just the face. 

Milling softens the feel and changes strike acoustics more than influences roll in the way you may think. Overall, very pleasing experience.

Golf is simple - people are complicated.

5w Taylormade SLDR S 19* - 220yd, Ping G2 5-U - 190-105, Maltby M+ 54* & MG 60* - 95-75, Evnroll ER8, Titleist 816 H1 4h 21*, Maltby 4 Hybrid Iron 24* - 210-200, Callaway XR16 8* - 235 carry

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On 9/18/2020 at 1:00 PM, cnosil said:

Not saying those aren’t great putters or knowledgeable guys. I could add names like Guerin Rife and Bobby Grace who would say face is important. According to Dean Snell; feedback on this provided in another thread, same putter and different ball will show little difference.

 

Do you have to have grooves? Definitely not but if it helps you control speed a little bit then why not?

 

Find the putter that lets you control speed then you have the right putter regardless of whether it has grooves or not.

Agree with this post.^^^

My experience with both types: I have a very nice TP Mills #12 custom made by David Mills and it does not have grooves. My favorite all time putter design. On "near perfect" greens/freshly mowed greens I can not tell the difference between it and my more recent TT #10 Callaway Odyssey that has insert/face that produces  very tight roll on off center strikes.

Where I personally find a a difference is on "less than perfect" condition greens and/or putts outside 20 ft. I am not going to attempt to argue the science or definitively pick one side over the other as I see benefits for both. My TP Mills feels better to me, looks better and rolls very tight on certain greens/<15 ft putts -- for me. But I will be the first to admit, on certain greens give me the TT #10 or one of my Bobby Grace higher MOI designed putters with grooves. Just wanted to share my experience. Glad we all have options. 

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Milled or smooth lead mainly to a audible change. That sound difference we interpret as feel. That is the biggest difference. 
 

everything else is more marketing than performance. 

Driver: Callaway Paradym Triple diamond 10.5 Ventus black TR 6x

3 wood ; Callaway Paradym triple diamond 15 degree, Ventus black TR 7x

Apex UW 19 degree, Ventus black TR 8x

Utility Iron: Mizuno Pro Fli Hi 4 utility, Ventus blue HB 90X

Irons: Callaway Apex MB 5-PW, KBS $ taper 130x

Wedges: Callaway Jaws Raw 50, 54, 58, KBS $ taper 130x

Putter: Wilson Staff TM22, hand torched, KBS cutter putter shaft, Super stroke Pistol GT 1.0

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