Q&A with Master Fitter & Builder Nick Sherburne of Club Champion

[Matt Saternus]

A few weeks ago, I was lucky enough to be invited for a full bag fitting at Club Champion in Chicago, IL. The review of the fitting can be found here: http://forum.mygolfs...mpion-a-review/

 

 

Nick Sherburne, founder of Club Champion, was also gracious enough to answer a slew of questions posed to him by MGS readers.

 

 

 

MGS: Is it more important to get someone into the right specs (length, lie, etc) or the right products?

 

NS: Right specs will trump right products every time. The core setup of the golf club is going to set the players posture and swing path. Product is important as it will enhance the right specs.

 

 

MGS: What is the purpose of adjusting lie angle?

 

NS: First, lie angle is different for everybody and can only be determined correctly through hitting off a lie board with the particular club that is being adjusted (because of shaft drop and weight and how the golfer perceives the different lies). Remember lie is not how the club lie's on the ground at address but how it is delivered to the club at impact. Some golfers stand up in the swing throwing the toe in the ground, some sit down throwing the heel in the ground. Adjustments are made so that the club comes through clean and square through the turf at impact

 

Second, lie angle adjusts ball flight and allows the player to hit shots cleaner and on the center of the face, which increases ball speed. If a club is too flat the ball will tend to go right and if it is too upright it will tend to go left.

 

Third, lie angle can determine path in some golfers. If the club is too flat the golfer may tend to have a swing flatter swing plane, and if the club is too upright their swing plane may be more upright. This doesn't always happen but a good fitter will look for these tendencies.

 

Fourth, there is dynamic lie. If you shorten a club by ½” you make the club play flatter by a degree, and if you lengthen the club by ½” it will play more upright by a degree.

 

 

MGS: What's more important: the head or the shaft?

 

NS: This can be debated for days, months and years! There is no RIGHT or WRONG because different swings and golfers are going to have different effects on the answer. Here is how I break it down.

 

With woods, everything being equal , one head will most likely not produce much more ball speed outside of a 1 to 2 mph variance than another, making the shaft a better instrument for timing, speed, and plane. The head is a better instrument for producing different types of spin and launch. So as you can see, both are important.

 

With irons we believe the same principles apply, however, different iron heads tend to produce a higher variance of ball speeds than woods depending on the make and model. The weight of the shaft will dictate a lot about the plane and timing of the swing, which is vital to producing center hits, which is a must with irons.

 

 

MGS: How do you fit a golfer who is swinging very inconsistently?

 

NS: Many golfers we fit feel they may be too inconsistent for the process. Although there are days where I have a golfer that isn't swinging well, most people are actually consistent enough to do a fitting and give us the right amount of data to make the right club choice for them.

 

You must understand that many core principles of your swing are not going to change enough from one day to another to impact the fitting that dramaticly. Most importantly, a fitter should always have you hit plenty of balls to work off an average. Working off only good shots or bad shots will produce a bad fitting. We like to see all the shots a golfer can produce and work off those types of numbers.

 

A fitter should also be asking you whether you're taking lessons or plan on taking lessons. If the answer to that question is yes, a fitter can help show cause and effect that may happen with future swing changes.

 

 

MGS: How often should a golfer have his equipment checked to see that it still fits?

 

NS: We believe a golfer should have their lie angles checked once a year to make sure that nothing has changed. Remember, it's important to not only have the right fit, but that you also have the confidence that you have the best stuff in the bag. So if it that means going through a new fitting every year and testing the new products, then that's what it takes. For others, the gap may be a few years or more. Because I invest so much time in learning the specs on the new club heads and shafts from all the manufacturers, we are able to give our customers a lot of information before they even step into the bay and give them an idea of what improvements the new equipment is likely to help them with.

 

 

MGS: How much performance difference is their between heads (drivers or irons)?

 

NS: Woods:

 

The speed the head produces, everything being equal, is usually very slight due to USGA rules. The heads will play a bigger role in launch, spin, and direction. A more pear-shaped, deeper faced driver will launch lower and spin less. The head will also want to rotate more, making it more workable. A more shallow driver will most likely launch higher and spin more and possibly be harder to work. There are variations that break these principles, but it's hard to find most of the time.

 

Irons:

 

Irons can be very dynamic. You will see bigger variances in speed based on design. For example a Taylor Made Burner 2.0 will tend to have much more speed on average than say a Mizuno MP63 due to design for certain players. However, speed isn't everything and you will see different launch angles and spin rates based on design. Since the Burner is lower-lofted, you will most likely see a lower launch angle and spin rate compared with the MP63, which may or may not be good for that particular players game. Also, the ability to work the ball will be somewhat dependent on weighting and offset. To go back to my example, a Mizuno MP63 tends to be easier to work than a Burner 2.0 because of the Burner's perimeter weighting. Irons heads have a much bigger impact on feel for a player than a driver. All irons are designed to have a different feel based on the materials and design.

 

 

MGS:Can you discuss the recent use of a lighter head, longer shaft combo by OEM's. It's making it more difficult to hit a reasonable swing weight at my ideal length of 44.75".

 

NS: This is true, but it can be done. At Club Champion this is a daily activity now that drivers are so long. Often times, we actually find that the right head and shaft combo at a shorter length can produce better ball speeds and more control because the player can create a better kinematic sequence. In some cases, we might “rat glue” the head. It is a process in which we inject somewhat dense sticky glue into the head to add weight back. If you only need a couple swing weights, one could always add some tungsten powder to the glue to add weight as well. Lead tape is always an option as well.

 

 

 

MGS: While we all know lie angle is important for irons, I hardly ever see anyone adjust lie angles for hybrids or fairways. Should this be looked at as well?

 

NS: I believe with the evolution of adjustable clubs that you will see much more of this very soon. Custom Club fitters and builders and many pros have been adjusting the lofts of woods for years. We do believe that it makes a difference in all woods. Obviously fairway woods and hybrids interact with the turf, so lie angle is important that they come through cleanly. Also, lie can have an effect on club path and produce a faulty swing sometimes. So to answer the question emphatically – YES, lie angle should be addressed for most golfers at some point.

 

 

MGS: Are there shafts that are ‘anti-direction'? I've heard a number of times people talking about shafts that make it much less likely for the shot to go right or left. Is this a function of some shafts or is it only based on the head?

 

NS: A shaft could be perceived an ‘anti-direction' shaft due to its characteristics. For example, a person with less club head speed and low amounts of load would probably call a low torque, stiff tip shaft an ‘anti-left' shaft, because for the most part they won't hit a hook with it. But even that example may not hold true all the time on the course.

 

Heads can be perceived in the same way. If a head is set up open to hit a fade, a golfer might call it an ‘anti-left' head, but another person might still be able to turn the ball over sharply with that open club face setting.

 

Golf swings and golfers are unique in that they can break the tendency or logic of a club or set up. That's why it is so important to get fit by somebody who has the actual club you are buying, so that you can test what is supposed to happen. At Club Champion we have all the clubs available, so we take the guesswork out of it.

 

 

 

MGS: Why it is that pro's use shorter 44"-ish drivers, but fitters still recommend 45" and up length to average players?

 

NS: Well I wouldn't say fitters always recommend 45”, although it is the benchmark. Driver length is an interesting thing that we feel boils down to an individual's kinematic sequence and face impact location.

 

Shafts have gotten longer because products have gotten lighter and manufacturers need to find more distance (a reason) to sell clubs off the rack. So they make them longer. This usually makes them harder to control and hit square, but not always.

 

Pros and top amateurs can produce ball speeds over 170 mph regardless of length due to their kinematic sequence, so they are not always looking for more yardage, they are looking for control, which is clearly easier with a shorter club. But going back to Kinematic sequence of a normal golfer with varying ball speeds, a shorter driver might actually create ball speed due to the fact they can connect better with the ball.

 

The bottom line is the right driver length is relative to what it takes to get the golfer's impact center and kinematic sequence better, thus producing higher ball speeds.

 

 

 

MGS: When adjusting the swing weight on a driver, will the placement of the weight on the head matter to the performance of the driver in general?

 

NS:Yes, to a degree. If you're only adding a minimal amount of swing weight you most likely will not change ball flight, but if you're adding a significant amount you will change ball flight. Adding weight to the toe will make the ball want to cut more. Adding weight to the heel, will make the ball draw more. If weight is added to the crown the ball flight will be lower. If added to bottom the ball will go higher. Remember though, one piece of lead tape or a small tweak of weight will have more of a placebo effect than actual physical effect. You will have to dramatically change the weight to adjust the ball flight.

 

 

 

MGS: I would be interested in how much effect fresh grooves have on mid to long irons.

 

NS: It will have a less dramatic effect than in the short irons. This is mainly due to the fact that a long iron being properly struck should have a shallower attack angle, thus producing less spin to begin with. The reality of all grooves is that spin will vary on every club depending on the golfer's speed/compression and attack angle.

 

 

 

MGS: Isn't a top-flight launch monitor such as Trackman or Flight scope X-2 absolutely essential to proper fitting, particularly for scratch or single-digit handicappers?

 

NS: At Club Champion we believe in top flight launch monitors. While there are many good fitters/golfers that can tell certain things by eye and feel, but when there is technology that can give you unbiased data over many swings, why would you not want that to take advantage of that. If the best players in the world are using this technology to help them get better, then why would you not want to use it is my question.

 

Trackman is what we use at Club Champion. I can't imagine doing fittings without it. It not only gives me extremely good data time after time, but also allows me to see club delivery data. This allows me to show the cause and effect. Being able to show the golfer why he spins it due to attack angle and why he may not hit it straight due to face angle, helps me as a fitter because the golfer understands what needs to be fixed. In an age where sanctions are being put on driver design dynamics, fitters need to find everything they can to help the golfer, and these machines measure land angle. This land angle optimization can help a golfer gain yardage where they didn't even know where to look. A fitter can be good or even the best, but without data to back his eyes and words I believe he can't be superior or sure.

 

 

 

MGS: What role should instruction play in a fitting? Is it good, bad, or indifferent?

 

NS: This is a debate that has raged on for years. I believe it ultimately comes down to the golfer and what he is trying to accomplish. At Club Champion we keep it a separation. Our fitters will not teach although many come from a teaching background. They will ask whether the golfer is working with someone and what they are working on, and we always invite the golfer's teaching pro to be a part of the fitting if they would like. If a golfer tells us he doesn't take lessons and does not plan on it then we may explain why certain things are happening, but never teach him.

 

All that being said I believe there are core things that most golfers will never change even though they feel like they are (remember there are always outliers but this is from my 12 years of experience). Most of the time if you're a high spinner of the golf ball you will fight that for many years, and if your upright on your irons, you probably won't vary much in your golf life.

 

To summarize, I think it boils down to what makes the fitting experience make more sense to you. Remember golf is such a mental game, if you think you need an instructor to look at the fitting please do, and if you don't I wouldn't worry about that either. Just be comfortable.

 

 

 

MGS: What are the advantages or disadvantages of playing a shaft that's too stiff or too soft? Will a too-stiff shaft tighten dispersion and improve consistency?

 

NS: It might, but the answer needs to be taken further. It's all dictated by how much load the golfer has. A player can swing fast but not have much load. He might not do better because the shaft is too stiff and he cannot square up the face. Other golfers could swing slower but load the club a lot and benefit from a stiffer shaft. What we find at Club Champion is getting the shaft weight and torque right will have a big impact on consistency because the golfer will be on plane more often.

 

 

[Tyk]

Very good and informative interview, thank you!

[GolfSpy Tim]

ok, that was awesome and solid! so many great questions, and such thorough answers, I love it.

[Phana24JG]

Excellent job, Matt. Sherburne really knows his stuff. The only area where I would question his answers would be on the instruction question. I was at a school this weekend where one of the participants began his data collection day with a driver swing of 89mph, a VSP of 55*, HSP of -6*, A of A at -4* and a face path of -2. Two days later the guy is swinging at 97mph with a 49* VSP, HSP of +1-2*, A of A 0, and face zeroed or slightly open (+1-2). I can guarantee this golfer had damn well better have a different driver for those swings. If Nick was referring to a better player who will not be seeing any radical changes, I guess thats cool, but I would say for anyone in double digits who is on a mission to get better, the lessons should probably come first.

[Matt Saternus]

Excellent job, Matt. Sherburne really knows his stuff. The only area where I would question his answers would be on the instruction question. I was at a school this weekend where one of the participants began his data collection day with a driver swing of 89mph, a VSP of 55*, HSP of -6*, A of A at -4* and a face path of -2. Two days later the guy is swinging at 97mph with a 49* VSP, HSP of +1-2*, A of A 0, and face zeroed or slightly open (+1-2). I can guarantee this golfer had damn well better have a different driver for those swings. If Nick was referring to a better player who will not be seeing any radical changes, I guess thats cool, but I would say for anyone in double digits who is on a mission to get better, the lessons should probably come first.

 

Nick and I had a pretty interesting side-discussion on this point. (I am paraphrasing here, and working from memory, so please do not jump on Nick for anything I attribute to him here.)

 

When I asked about how much people change with lessons, he said that, generally speaking, guys rarely make radical swing changes with lessons. OBVIOUSLY there are exceptions, as with the guy you mentioned here, but his point was that guys who need upright clubs will probably always need upright clubs.

 

Based on my experience, I would be inclined to agree with him: I've watched dozens, if not hundreds of people come in for their weekly or monthly lessons and I rarely see people who make dramatic changes in their swing.

[Phana24JG]

Nick and I had a pretty interesting side-discussion on this point. (I am paraphrasing here, and working from memory, so please do not jump on Nick for anything I attribute to him here.)

 

When I asked about how much people change with lessons, he said that, generally speaking, guys rarely make radical swing changes with lessons. OBVIOUSLY there are exceptions, as with the guy you mentioned here, but his point was that guys who need upright clubs will probably always need upright clubs.

 

Based on my experience, I would be inclined to agree with him: I've watched dozens, if not hundreds of people come in for their weekly or monthly lessons and I rarely see people who make dramatic changes in their swing.

 

Yeah, I should have mentioned this was a golf school that included a Top 50 teacher who has David Toms as one of his students, and was a 3 day school that involved almost 8 (or more) hours on the range. The tools included a Trackman, Flightscope X-2, AMM 3-D analysis, as well as high-speed videography. The swings changes you would see here might take weeks to duplicate on the standard lesson tee.

[Matt Saternus]

Yeah, I should have mentioned this was a golf school that included a Top 50 teacher who has David Toms as one of his students, and was a 3 day school that involved almost 8 (or more) hours on the range. The tools included a Trackman, Flightscope X-2, AMM 3-D analysis, as well as high-speed videography. The swings changes you would see here might take weeks to duplicate on the standard lesson tee.

 

Haha, yeah, I think that's probably a little bit different than the lessons most people take.

[Shambles]

I like Nick Sherburne's answers. They strike me as refreshingly direct and honest. Rather sad that some aspects were not expanded upon, such as the weight placements and how much more important head design is than any subsequent adjustments done by a fitter.

 

Personally, if I could access his full attention, I would ask for a fitting by Nick Sherburne and accept his recommendations.Lucky for me we have a fellow named Tony Olives who is also very good as a fitter.

 

Thank you for the posting.

 

 

Shambles

[Shambles]

oops