The ULTIMATE Driver Challenge

[MadMex]

Here is a challenge I would love to see done, I would even volunteer in any way possible for this.

Take a driver , same brand, use the same shaft, same ball, now here is the challenge. 

Test one driver as per said specs, current model, one from 5 years ago and  10 years ago maybe even and 15 years ago.

Show the results of the specs. I am curious to see if there has been THAT much improvement for us recreational players. I am sure scratch and better have seen a noticeable improvement.

[Tom the Golf Nut]

Shouldn't you use the stock shaft for the particular era of the driver. Shaft technology has changed drastically over the years. I think you would want to check the overall club performance not just the club head. 

[KurtActual]

I'd be challenged to make two swings similar enough to each other to consider them a non-factor. Ha

[MadMex]

3 hours ago, Tom the Golf Nut said:

Shouldn't you use the stock shaft for the particular era of the driver. Shaft technology has changed drastically over the years. I think you would want to check the overall club performance not just the club head. 

What I would like to know is have driver heads made that much of an impact. Do these new driver head help us mortals THAT much!
I tried a EPIC flash driver when it first came out using the same shaft I have on my XR16 (White tie) , results? The longest drive with the EPIC (278)  was 3 yards longer than the longest my XR16 (275) and no difference in dispersion. I bought the XR16 when it was released since it performed better than my PING G, which I also bought when it was released.

 

 

[MadMex]

3 hours ago, KurtActual said:

I'd be challenged to make two swings similar enough to each other to consider them a non-factor. Ha

I hear you, same here, but I say if we swing each 5-10 times and take the average,,,

[HardcoreLooper]

On 8/17/2020 at 3:00 PM, MadMex said:

What I would like to know is have driver heads made that much of an impact. Do these new driver head help us mortals THAT much!
I tried a EPIC flash driver when it first came out using the same shaft I have on my XR16 (White tie) , results? The longest drive with the EPIC (278)  was 3 yards longer than the longest my XR16 (275) and no difference in dispersion. I bought the XR16 when it was released since it performed better than my PING G, which I also bought when it was released.

 

 

I think there's about a three year difference between the Epic Flash and the R16.  I'm not surprised that you're not seeing a significant difference.  A five year gap would be more likely to show a bigger difference.  Ten years would certainly do it.

What I'd love to see is MGS put the prior year's Most Wanted Driver into the current year's test to see how it measures up against newer models.

 

[ejgaudette]

There are indeed video out there of people doing this on YouTube. I know a Rick Shields video always pops up where he tests all the heads from Taylormade from the last 5 years. They are a couple years old and obviously not as thorough as MSG testing but fun in its own way.

[MadMex]

On 8/20/2020 at 8:12 AM, ejgaudette said:

There are indeed video out there of people doing this on YouTube. I know a Rick Shields video always pops up where he tests all the heads from Taylormade from the last 5 years. They are a couple years old and obviously not as thorough as MSG testing but fun in its own way.

Wonder if ANY major OEM has tried it just for GP's ?!?!?!

[dlow206]

On 8/16/2020 at 2:41 PM, MadMex said:

Here is a challenge I would love to see done, I would even volunteer in any way possible for this.

Take a driver , same brand, use the same shaft, same ball, now here is the challenge. 

Test one driver as per said specs, current model, one from 5 years ago and  10 years ago maybe even and 15 years ago.

Show the results of the specs. I am curious to see if there has been THAT much improvement for us recreational players. I am sure scratch and better have seen a noticeable improvement.

My thinking is that the tech improvements would help us recreational players more than scratch and better players. Scratch and better players find the middle of the face much more often, so they probably won't see as much improvement. I think the driver improvements help keep the ballspeed up for us that hit the ball all over the face.

[MadMex]

4 hours ago, dlow206 said:

My thinking is that the tech improvements would help us recreational players more than scratch and better players. Scratch and better players find the middle of the face much more often, so they probably won't see as much improvement. I think the driver improvements help keep the ballspeed up for us that hit the ball all over the face.

 

See, that's were I disagree with you,  a scratch player who hits the sweet spot will gain more than us mortals who are all over the place. A scratch player will benefit more from a Pro-V1 than us hacks because they hit the sweet spot more often than rest of us who's club sweet spot is still brand new from lack of use.

I just think it would be incredible to perform this test, no OEM would since marketing to us hacks who love shinny new toys is their bread and butter. Imagine the ramifications if a test proved that for those of us with a mid to high handicap, any driver from the past 10 years ago would be as good as the new 2020 models? 

 

[ejgaudette]

21 hours ago, MadMex said:

Wonder if ANY major OEM has tried it just for GP's ?!?!?!

I would doubt it gotta market the next driver coming out next year. As is often said no company has ever posted day saying there product isn't the best and I would believe that extends to data showing this year's product really isn't any better.

[AH1980MN]

2nd swing posts videos exactly like you are describing. Small caveat- their tester is a scratch handicap. Very informative- highly recommend.

[HardcoreLooper]

On 8/23/2020 at 7:49 PM, MadMex said:

 

See, that's were I disagree with you,  a scratch player who hits the sweet spot will gain more than us mortals who are all over the place. 

I'll disagree with your disagreement.  When I caddied 30 years ago, guys with handicaps over 20 couldn't get the ball off the ground with a driver.  Now it's the easiest club in the bag to hit.  The difference between 280 and 320 for a tour pro might seem like a lot (and it is), but the difference between 50 and 200 is the difference between having fun at golf and taking up woodworking.

[MadMex]

3 hours ago, HardcoreLooper said:

I'll disagree with your disagreement.  When I caddied 30 years ago, guys with handicaps over 20 couldn't get the ball off the ground with a driver.  Now it's the easiest club in the bag to hit.  The difference between 280 and 320 for a tour pro might seem like a lot (and it is), but the difference between 50 and 200 is the difference between having fun at golf and taking up woodworking.

See I agree with some of your disagreement, my first brand new driver was a Powerbuilt persimmon Citation driver with a stiff DG S300 shaft loft prob in the 11 to 12 loft, and  44 inch shaft length (1987) I used top flight XL and yes, as a 30 handicap, a high 220 drive a reason to celebrate, once I started hitting the sweet spot, my drives started going higher and an average of 220-225. Today, I can average that with my 3 wood. 
But still believe you as a 6 handicap will see a noticeable improvement between a 10 year, 5 year and today’s driver heads. Where I as a 12, might, maybe see a difference between a 10 year and today’s model. 
 

make sense? 

[silver & black]

9 hours ago, HardcoreLooper said:

but the difference between 50 and 200 is the difference between having fun at golf and taking up woodworking.

You might be surprised at the skill needed to do woodwork well.  

[Shapotomous]

There are a lot of variables that make a head to head comparison difficult.  Up to this year I gamed a G10 driver (~2007 era design) and would periodically try other drivers in the Golf Galaxy simulator against my gamer.  I never saw a difference between my G10 and the flavor of the year until about 2 years ago.  I got the bug to upgrade over the winter and after narrowing down the field I had a contest this summer between a G410 Plus and ST190G to take the place of the G10 if they earned it.  It was Ping loyalty that had me hitting the G410 and I like the way the ST190G looks. 

Based on my GG sampling experience with my specific swing (very narrow sample size) ....  I don't think sweet spot hits will see much difference in drivers that are 5 years apart.  I think for 10 yo drivers a sweet spot hit would be maybe 8 yards different in carry.  The roll out on the newer driver could be a difference maker since mfg have come out with low spin drivers which should lower trajectory height and have a advantageous descent angle.  Combine that spin design with shaft advances and I think that would be the difference maker on sweet spot hits.  The shaft i have in the G10 is the Red Prolaunch X tipped an inch.  I experimented a bit back then and it was the best performer for me, especially over the TFC that was the popular off the rack shaft.  Maybe if I upgraded that shaft to an Accra or Ventis or Diamana I wouldn't see any difference in performance?

I think the bigger difference will be for off center hits getting better performance in the newer drivers.  The adjustable weights on the newer drivers to favor toe-ish or heel-ish hits can help maintain carry and narrow dispersion better than 10 or even 5 year old drivers.  When I miss I am toward the toe by a little, not horrendously but enough to immediately feel it.  After experimenting on the range & course, having the toe side weight in the ST190G or the G410 sliding weight in the fade position maintains distance and narrows my dispersion over the G10 by a greater difference than sweet spot hits get.  

I always say there is about a 1 month honeymoon period with a new driver where you hit it great and then your old performance creeps back.  I am way past the honeymoon with the ST190G and still see the improvement over the G10 so I think I am set for the next 10 years!  

 

[HardcoreLooper]

2 hours ago, silver & black said:

You might be surprised at the skill needed to do woodwork well.  

Much respect to all the woodworkers out there.  My grandfather was an expert woodworker.  My wife worries when I pull out my drill.  That was a reference to a recent Chasing Scratch episode.  I'm about to convert an underused room in my house into an office and do an Ikea bookcase hack to make them look like built-ins.  That's stretching the limits of my skills.

[HardcoreLooper]

7 hours ago, MadMex said:

See I agree with some of your disagreement, my first brand new driver was a Powerbuilt persimmon Citation driver with a stiff DG S300 shaft loft prob in the 11 to 12 loft, and  44 inch shaft length (1987) I used top flight XL and yes, as a 30 handicap, a high 220 drive a reason to celebrate, once I started hitting the sweet spot, my drives started going higher and an average of 220-225. Today, I can average that with my 3 wood. 
But still believe you as a 6 handicap will see a noticeable improvement between a 10 year, 5 year and today’s driver heads. Where I as a 12, might, maybe see a difference between a 10 year and today’s model. 
 

make sense? 

I see where you're coming from.  Especially now, the gain of five years of technological advances are not what they were in the mid 2000s.  The Fly-Z is still a decent driver if it was properly fit to you.

I can only speak personally here - Persimmon in the 80s went short and crooked unless I caught it on the screws (not nearly enough), and so did the early metal woods (maybe a little farther, but not much).  The large-headed drivers that started coming out in the early 2000s were absolute hook machines for me (but I have a hook swing, so it wasn't all the club).  I lived in fear of the hot hook that would go straight for 200 yards, then snap left and go another 50 yards (into trees, OB or other horrible places).  Even the R7 with the adjustable weights.  If there was any trouble left, I couldn't hit driver.

The R11 (2011) was the first driver that really cured that.  I could put all the weight in the toe, open the face up and not really worry about the duck hook.  I could hit a high pull with it when I didn't rotate through the ball fast enough, but that just goes straight up in the air for about 200 yards and stops a few yards from where it lands.  Much more playable than the hot hook.

I hung onto that R11 for a long time, and it continued to beat all comers.  Even after I got the F8 I'm currently playing, I put the R11 back in the bag for a little while.  I finally got the configuration right on the F8 and it's safe... for now.

The modern driver is a "can't miss" club.  Both my 12 and 19 year old daughters who've never played with anything other than modern drivers can't fathom the idea that the driver isn't the easiest club to hit in the bag.  It's the size of a freaking dinner plate; you can't miss.  And shots all over the face are playable.  Tee it high, lean back, swing up, launch it.  No problem.  They swing as hard as they can at it and have no fear.  I still need therapy from some tee shots I hit in junior tournaments in the late 80s.

 

 

[MadMex]

6 hours ago, HardcoreLooper said:

I see where you're coming from.  Especially now, the gain of five years of technological advances are not what they were in the mid 2000s.  The Fly-Z is still a decent driver if it was properly fit to you.

I can only speak personally here - Persimmon in the 80s went short and crooked unless I caught it on the screws (not nearly enough), and so did the early metal woods (maybe a little farther, but not much).  The large-headed drivers that started coming out in the early 2000s were absolute hook machines for me (but I have a hook swing, so it wasn't all the club).  I lived in fear of the hot hook that would go straight for 200 yards, then snap left and go another 50 yards (into trees, OB or other horrible places).  Even the R7 with the adjustable weights.  If there was any trouble left, I couldn't hit driver.

The R11 (2011) was the first driver that really cured that.  I could put all the weight in the toe, open the face up and not really worry about the duck hook.  I could hit a high pull with it when I didn't rotate through the ball fast enough, but that just goes straight up in the air for about 200 yards and stops a few yards from where it lands.  Much more playable than the hot hook.

I hung onto that R11 for a long time, and it continued to beat all comers.  Even after I got the F8 I'm currently playing, I put the R11 back in the bag for a little while.  I finally got the configuration right on the F8 and it's safe... for now.

The modern driver is a "can't miss" club.  Both my 12 and 19 year old daughters who've never played with anything other than modern drivers can't fathom the idea that the driver isn't the easiest club to hit in the bag.  It's the size of a freaking dinner plate; you can't miss.  And shots all over the face are playable.  Tee it high, lean back, swing up, launch it.  No problem.  They swing as hard as they can at it and have no fear.  I still need therapy from some tee shots I hit in junior tournaments in the late 80s.

 

 

I thought I was ready for balata in the late 80's usually high 70's 50% of time, so I bought a sleeve of Titleist 100's balata,,, first tee, bladed my driver,,, walked up to my ball (about 180 yards TOPS) down the fairway,,, I actually cut the ball with my driver, out came the surlyn DT's.

I dont change driver's much, I used my persimmon driver until about '96, I was usually the short driver, then a Big Bertha knock off, a Taylormade 580, Titleist D2, Callaway XR-16 and now a Cobra F8. I "had" a PING G SF Tec until the wife got hit with the golf bug and she confiscated that one. 

I have played some tournaments where your required to tee off using a persimmon driver on a par 5 which is also a long drive contest, many people have their eyes opened and some of us get a nostalgic feeling.

[HardcoreLooper]

43 minutes ago, MadMex said:

I thought I was ready for balata in the late 80's usually high 70's 50% of time, so I bought a sleeve of Titleist 100's balata,,, first tee, bladed my driver,,, walked up to my ball (about 180 yards TOPS) down the fairway,,, I actually cut the ball with my driver, out came the surlyn DT's.

I dont change driver's much, I used my persimmon driver until about '96, I was usually the short driver, then a Big Bertha knock off, a Taylormade 580, Titleist D2, Callaway XR-16 and now a Cobra F8. I "had" a PING G SF Tec until the wife got hit with the golf bug and she confiscated that one. 

I have played some tournaments where your required to tee off using a persimmon driver on a par 5 which is also a long drive contest, many people have their eyes opened and some of us get a nostalgic feeling.

The pro at the club where I worked was sponsored by Maxfli, so he'd only play three holes with a ball, then it went in the shag bag.  Sometimes his shag bag would get a little too heavy, and us guys in the shop would do him a favor and "lighten" it for him.  He knew we did it and didn't care.

I miss the old Maxfli HT.  You could do anything but hit it straight.

[HAC]

On 8/29/2020 at 2:58 AM, MadMex said:

See I agree with some of your disagreement, my first brand new driver was a Powerbuilt persimmon Citation driver with a stiff DG S300 shaft loft prob in the 11 to 12 loft, and  44 inch shaft length (1987) I used top flight XL and yes, as a 30 handicap, a high 220 drive a reason to celebrate, once I started hitting the sweet spot, my drives started going higher and an average of 220-225. Today, I can average that with my 3 wood. 
But still believe you as a 6 handicap will see a noticeable improvement between a 10 year, 5 year and today’s driver heads. Where I as a 12, might, maybe see a difference between a 10 year and today’s model. 
 

make sense? 

Hasn't the biggest difference in drivers over the past few years been they are becoming better on off-center hits?  Wouldn't that help you and me more than a scratch golfer?

Edited August 31, 2020 by HAC

[HardcoreLooper]

3 hours ago, HAC said:

Hasn't the biggest difference in drivers over the past few years been they are becoming better on off-center hits?  Wouldn't that help you and me more than a scratch golfer?

I'll say that it actually helps both.  Take Joaquin Niemann as an example.  He's a smaller guy that throws himself at the ball and generates a ton of swing speed.  With a big-headed driver (and a ball whose spin axis hardly tilts), he has very little fear of mishits.  When the penalty for a mishit is smaller (both in terms of distance and dispersion), why bother leaving anything in the tank?  Just let it all hang out.  

There used to be a tradeoff between power and precision, and only the best of the best (e.g. Nicklaus) had both.  That's really not the case anymore.

That's not to say that it doesn't help us mere mortals as well.

[Firebird]

This the sort of thing you mean, does all the other brands as well. Just search.

 

[MadMex]

23 hours ago, Firebird said:

This the sort of thing you mean, does all the other brands as well. Just search.

 

Close to what I am talking about,,,

but I want to know about the 20 year difference is that they have same shaft and length,,,, and for the ULTIMATE, is used a iron Byron golf robot,,,,2011-2017 same shaft  and length