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I hate to reignite the loft controversy, but...


Hook DeLoft

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A buddy recently gave me his old set of Callaway X-20 irons.  Just for kicks and giggles, I had the lofts strengthened by 3 degrees to match my Callaway Mavrik Max irons.  The result?  Almost identical distance and height throughout the set.  Not a complete apples to oranges, of course.  The Mavriks have a lighter, senior graphite shaft, the X-20's have a regular flex graphite shaft.  The shaft length of the X-20's is slightly longer (my buddy is very tall).  Now, the X-20's have a reputation for being some of the most forgiving irons ever with an extremely low center of gravity, so that is a factor.  But, at least for a slower swinger like me, the idea that lofts have to be stronger to keep modern-designed irons from flying too high seems to be questionable at best.  Maybe a fast swinger with a high ball flight needs stronger lofts to keep SGI irons from flying too high,  but that golfer isn't the target audience anyway.

14 of the following:

Ping G430 Max 10.5 degree

Callaway 2023 Big Bertha 3 wood set to 17 degrees

Cobra F9 Speedback 7/8 wood set at 23.5 degrees

Callaway Epic Max 11 wood

Ping Eye 2 BeCu 2-SW

Mizuno 923 JPX HM HL 6-GW

Hogan sand wedge 56 degree bent to 53

Maltby M Series+ 54 degree

Ping Glide 3.0 Eye2 58 degree

Ping Glide 3.0 60 degree

Evnroll ER2

Ping Sigma 2 Anser

Cheap Top Flite mallet putter from Dick's, currently holding down first place in the bag

TaylorMade Mini Spider

Bridgestone XS

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51 minutes ago, Hook DeLoft said:

A buddy recently gave me his old set of Callaway X-20 irons.  Just for kicks and giggles, I had the lofts strengthened by 3 degrees to match my Callaway Mavrik Max irons.  The result?  Almost identical distance and height throughout the set.  Not a complete apples to oranges, of course.  The Mavriks have a lighter, senior graphite shaft, the X-20's have a regular flex graphite shaft.  The shaft length of the X-20's is slightly longer (my buddy is very tall).  Now, the X-20's have a reputation for being some of the most forgiving irons ever with an extremely low center of gravity, so that is a factor.  But, at least for a slower swinger like me, the idea that lofts have to be stronger to keep modern-designed irons from flying too high seems to be questionable at best.  Maybe a fast swinger with a high ball flight needs stronger lofts to keep SGI irons from flying too high,  but that golfer isn't the target audience anyway.

Modern low CoG GI irons do launch a little higher. But that doesn’t mean the lofts/club numbers had to be changed, that’s mostly marketing distance. And the “flying too high” argument is nonsense. I’ve posted the obvious evidence several times, but the loft jacking supporters have refused to address the obvious for years.

Not common yet, but I’m beginning to see talk of carrying 5 specialty wedges lately. If your irons start at “5” or “6” why not. What a farce...

  • Titleist TSR2 11° HZRDUS Red CB 50 6.0 w Lamkin UTx Midsize
  • Titleist TSR2 16.5º HZRDUS Red 60 CB 6.0 & TSR2 21º HZRDUS Black 4G 70 6.0 w Lamkin UTx Midsize
  • Mizuno JPX923 HMP 4-GW, T22 54.12WS, T22 58.04DC w Lamkin ST+2 Hybrid Midsize
  • Evnroll EV5.3
  • Maxfli Tour & ProV1
  • Ping Pioneer - MGI Zip Navigator AT
  • Payntr X 002 LE, Ecco Biom C4, FJ DryJoys
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4 hours ago, Middler said:

Modern low CoG GI irons do launch a little higher. But that doesn’t mean the lofts/club numbers had to be changed, that’s mostly marketing distance. And the “flying too high” argument is nonsense. I’ve posted the obvious evidence several times, but the loft jacking supporters have refused to address the obvious for years.

Not common yet, but I’m beginning to see talk of carrying 5 specialty wedges lately. If your irons start at “5” or “6” why not. What a farce...

 

Modern GI irons don't actually have CGs all that low.  They're certainly not lower than the irons of Olde.

Ping G400/G410/G700 all have a CG higher than the Eye2.  Titleist's new T series all have a CG that's no lower than the DCI 981's.

Its a shell game.

Driver: TM Original One 11.5* set to 11*, Aldila NV75 X, 43.5" -or- SpeedZone, HZRDUS Black 75 6.5, 43.5"
3w:  Cobra King LTD, RIP Beta 90, 42" -or- Stage 2 Tour, NV105 X, 42.5"
2h or 3h:  TaylorMade Stage 2 Tour, Aldila NV105 S -or- RIP Alpha 105 S
Irons:  3-PW Mizuno MP37, Recoil Proto 125 F4 (reshaft in progress, slowly); 1i & 3-PW Golden Ram TW276, NV105 S; 2-PW Golden Ram TW282, RIP Tour 115 R
GW: Dynacraft Dual Milled CNC 52*, Steelfiber 125 S; Scratch 8620 DS 53*, Steelfiber 125 S
SW:  Ram TG-898 56*, DGX ss2x; Ram Tom Watson 55*, DGX ss2x; Wilson Staff PMP 58*, DGS; PM Grind 19 58*, stock shaft
Putter:  Snake Eyes Viper Tour Sv1, 34"; Ping Scottsdale TR Craz-E, 35"; Cleveland Huntington Beach 1, 35"
Ball:  Wilson Staff Duo Professional, Bridgestone Tour B-RXS, Callaway Chrome Soft

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Her's my two pesos,,,,,,,,,

 

At the risk of sounding like a coward and not taking a side, or being waaaayyyy of subject,,, the height of an iron shot depends in more than loft's.

I played for a long time in Western Texas/Eastern New Mexico were winds prevail,  constant high shots get eaten by the wind, so many golfers play low shots which avoid the wind and take advantage of the hard ground. So my swing was "grooved" to this, after I moved to California and the softer turf conditions, my low ball flight  killed me! Tried everything I could think of to have high shots with negative results, strong lofts, weak lofts, light weight stee/graphitel shafts, heavy steel/graphite shafts, combination of said items, nothing! 

It was not until I "re-grooved" my swing was I able to add height to my shots and find the shaft/loft combination, it ended up moving the ball forward in my stance, slower tempo, staying behind the ball through my swing and of course, PING G700, Alta CB (R) Graphite shafts + 1/2 ", 2 degrees upright. I can still call upon the low , under the wind shot.

 DRIVER: default_cobra-small.jpg.125f3712aad21ad9f7ca2c672e34a299.jpg  Cobra F-8 set at 10.5,  Aldila NV 2KXV Blue 60 (R) 44 1/2 "

3 & 5 WOOD: default_callaway-small.jpg.a58e7c6760b71a9eb95d385ecc5d2200.jpg Callaway XR-16, Fujikura Speeder Evolution 565 Red (R) 

IRONS 5-SW: default_ping-small.jpg.b7606a25498d65282474c96f18d2debd.jpg PING G-700, 2 upright, std loft  Alta CB (R) + 1/2"

HYBRID 3-4:  default_ping-small.jpg.b7606a25498d65282474c96f18d2debd.jpg PING G-410, 1 upright,  Alta CB 70 Red (R) + 1/2"

PUTTER: Byron Experimental GSS

 

 

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Ive said it before and I'll say it again: jacked lofts are much, much more about distance and selling iron sets than it is about helping anyone play better.  Distance sells and when you can hit the 9-iron in your new set while all your buddies hit their 8-irons with the older irons, that sells.

People can talk about CGs and greater ball speeds neccecitation lower lofts and blah, blah, blah but its really all about distance.

"I suppose its better to be a master of 7 than to be vaguely familiar with 14." - Chick Evans

Whats in my Sun Mountain 2.5+ stand bag?

Woods: Tommy Armour Atomic 10.5* 

Hybrid: Mizuno MP Fli-Hi 3H

Irons: Mizuno T-Zoid True 5, 7 and 9-irons

Wedge: Mizuno S18 54* and Top Flite chipper

Putter: Mizuno Bettinardi A-02

Ball: Maxfli Tour X

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7 minutes ago, ZenGolfer said:

Ive said it before and I'll say it again: jacked lofts are much, much more about distance and selling iron sets than it is about helping anyone play better.  Distance sells and when you can hit the 9-iron in your new set while all your buddies hit their 8-irons with the older irons, that sells.

People can talk about CGs and greater ball speeds neccecitation lower lofts and blah, blah, blah but its really all about distance.

I agree. But there are lots of loft jacking supporters here who’ve continuously sneered down their noses to tell us iron manufacturers had to lower lofts to avoid ballooning/maintain trajectory. The ballooning part is pure BS. And changing lofts doesn’t make it necessary to change the loft/club number relationship anyway.

  • Titleist TSR2 11° HZRDUS Red CB 50 6.0 w Lamkin UTx Midsize
  • Titleist TSR2 16.5º HZRDUS Red 60 CB 6.0 & TSR2 21º HZRDUS Black 4G 70 6.0 w Lamkin UTx Midsize
  • Mizuno JPX923 HMP 4-GW, T22 54.12WS, T22 58.04DC w Lamkin ST+2 Hybrid Midsize
  • Evnroll EV5.3
  • Maxfli Tour & ProV1
  • Ping Pioneer - MGI Zip Navigator AT
  • Payntr X 002 LE, Ecco Biom C4, FJ DryJoys
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I've provided the actual engineering response to your claims multiple times and you don't care to listen so you're just as bad as you think we are.

The facts are the so-called jacked loft irons you all love to scream marketing about are probably not even designed with you in mind. They're designed for players who deliver far too much dynamic loft at impact. Without taking loft off, their ball flights aren't gameable. But we wouldn't want to let actual engineering get in the way of you yelling at clouds about lofts on irons that aren't even meant for you.

Seriously though, this topic is so beyond overdone. There are so many options in the iron market out there that with a proper fitting, who the hell cares what the loft number is. It doesn't matter as long as the iron is fit to your delivery characteristics. That's why companies offer so many different types of irons. Quit worrying about loft and start worrying about whether your irons are fit to your swing dynamics and this whole screaming at clouds about lofts goes away.

Modern low CoG GI irons do launch a little higher. But that doesn’t mean the lofts/club numbers had to be changed, that’s mostly marketing distance. And the “flying too high” argument is nonsense. I’ve posted the obvious evidence several times, but the loft jacking supporters have refused to address the obvious for years.
Not common yet, but I’m beginning to see talk of carrying 5 specialty wedges lately. If your irons start at “5” or “6” why not. What a farce...


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DRIVER PXG 0811XF GEN4 (10.5°)

FAIRWAY WOODS PXG 0341XF GEN4 (16°)

HYBRIDS PXG 0317XF GEN4 (19°), PXG 0317X GEN4 (22°)

IRONS PXG 0311T GEN3 (5 - 9)

WEDGES TAYLORMADE MG3 (45°, 50°, 55° TW Grind, 60° TW Grind)

PUTTER PXG BATTLE READY ONE & DONE

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25 minutes ago, FrogginBullfish said:

I've provided the actual engineering response to your claims multiple times and you don't care to listen so you're just as bad as you think we are.

Not listening, that’s your angle. We all understand the tech, that doesn’t explain why clubmakers decoupled lofts and club numbers. Your camp ignores that, and ballooning is nonsense. That’s almost entirely (distance) marketing. It’s overdone because of selective facts...

  • Titleist TSR2 11° HZRDUS Red CB 50 6.0 w Lamkin UTx Midsize
  • Titleist TSR2 16.5º HZRDUS Red 60 CB 6.0 & TSR2 21º HZRDUS Black 4G 70 6.0 w Lamkin UTx Midsize
  • Mizuno JPX923 HMP 4-GW, T22 54.12WS, T22 58.04DC w Lamkin ST+2 Hybrid Midsize
  • Evnroll EV5.3
  • Maxfli Tour & ProV1
  • Ping Pioneer - MGI Zip Navigator AT
  • Payntr X 002 LE, Ecco Biom C4, FJ DryJoys
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There you go not listening again.

 

You clearly don't know what a ballooning ball flight is. Ballooning comes from an abundance of spin which cause the ball to rise in flight, like a balloon, through the Magnus Effect.

 

The flying too high with GI comes from players that add dynamic loft, which with more "traditional lofts" would create a launch angle that is too high. That's what creates a ball flight that is too high to be gameable.

 

But sure, keep bleating about on about marketing when you clearly know nothing about physics and engineering.

Not listening, that’s your angle. We all understand the tech, that doesn’t explain why clubmakers decoupled lofts and club numbers. Your camp ignores that, and ballooning is nonsense. That’s almost entirely (distance) marketing. It’s overdone because of selective facts...

 

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DRIVER PXG 0811XF GEN4 (10.5°)

FAIRWAY WOODS PXG 0341XF GEN4 (16°)

HYBRIDS PXG 0317XF GEN4 (19°), PXG 0317X GEN4 (22°)

IRONS PXG 0311T GEN3 (5 - 9)

WEDGES TAYLORMADE MG3 (45°, 50°, 55° TW Grind, 60° TW Grind)

PUTTER PXG BATTLE READY ONE & DONE

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I've provided the actual engineering response to your claims multiple times and you don't care to listen so you're just as bad as you think we are.

The facts are the so-called jacked loft irons you all love to scream marketing about are probably not even designed with you in mind. They're designed for players who deliver far too much dynamic loft at impact. Without taking loft off, their ball flights aren't gameable. But we wouldn't want to let actual engineering get in the way of you yelling at clouds about lofts on irons that aren't even meant for you.

Seriously though, this topic is so beyond overdone. There are so many options in the iron market out there that with a proper fitting, who the hell cares what the loft number is. It doesn't matter as long as the iron is fit to your delivery characteristics. That's why companies offer so many different types of irons. Quit worrying about loft and start worrying about whether your irons are fit to your swing dynamics and this whole screaming at clouds about lofts goes away.


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That might be valid if it were only true on GI irons but the lofts on all irons have gotten stronger over the years.
Disagreeing with your point doesn't mean people aren't listening or being stubborn, we simply disagree with you.

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"I suppose its better to be a master of 7 than to be vaguely familiar with 14." - Chick Evans

Whats in my Sun Mountain 2.5+ stand bag?

Woods: Tommy Armour Atomic 10.5* 

Hybrid: Mizuno MP Fli-Hi 3H

Irons: Mizuno T-Zoid True 5, 7 and 9-irons

Wedge: Mizuno S18 54* and Top Flite chipper

Putter: Mizuno Bettinardi A-02

Ball: Maxfli Tour X

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And I disagree with you and Middler and anyone else who screams marketing when there are actual engineering reasons behind everything.

Me pointing out Middler isn't listening to myself or others is a rebuttal of them stating that we aren't listening to their arguments.

Notice how there are still blades and cavity back irons with 46° PWs out there. Notice how there's been an expansion in the types of irons in the marketplace. These are all there to address specific areas in the marketplace so that companies can better provide for all types of delivery characteristics. Companies used to offer maybe 3 types of irons. Now we're seeing 6 or more as the norm from the big brands. There's a reason for it and it's not marketing.

So yeah, it's plenty valid.

That might be valid if it were only true on GI irons but the lofts on all irons have gotten stronger over the years.
Disagreeing with your point doesn't mean people aren't listening or being stubborn, we simply disagree with you.

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Sent from my Pixel 2 using MyGolfSpy mobile app

DRIVER PXG 0811XF GEN4 (10.5°)

FAIRWAY WOODS PXG 0341XF GEN4 (16°)

HYBRIDS PXG 0317XF GEN4 (19°), PXG 0317X GEN4 (22°)

IRONS PXG 0311T GEN3 (5 - 9)

WEDGES TAYLORMADE MG3 (45°, 50°, 55° TW Grind, 60° TW Grind)

PUTTER PXG BATTLE READY ONE & DONE

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And I disagree with you and Middler and anyone else who screams marketing when there are actual engineering reasons behind everything.

 

Me pointing out Middler isn't listening to myself or others is a rebuttal of them stating that we aren't listening to their arguments.

 

Notice how there are still blades and cavity back irons with 46° PWs out there. Notice how there's been an expansion in the types of irons in the marketplace. These are all there to address specific areas in the marketplace so that companies can better provide for all types of delivery characteristics. Companies used to offer maybe 3 types of irons. Now we're seeing 6 or more as the norm from the big brands. There's a reason for it and it's not marketing.

 

So yeah, it's plenty valid.

 

 

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Right but PWs used to be 49 degrees, which is the point you're missing. You're telling me that high handicappers today deloft but they didn't 50 years ago?

It seems to me like you're trying to use the facts that support your argument and ignoring the rest.

As to the argument about all these different kind of irons, again, marketing. Everyone claims to have a magic club that can improve your game but there's no magic in the club. The magic is in the person swinging the club. Always has been.

 

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"I suppose its better to be a master of 7 than to be vaguely familiar with 14." - Chick Evans

Whats in my Sun Mountain 2.5+ stand bag?

Woods: Tommy Armour Atomic 10.5* 

Hybrid: Mizuno MP Fli-Hi 3H

Irons: Mizuno T-Zoid True 5, 7 and 9-irons

Wedge: Mizuno S18 54* and Top Flite chipper

Putter: Mizuno Bettinardi A-02

Ball: Maxfli Tour X

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Right but PWs used to be 49 degrees, which is the point you're missing. You're telling me that high handicappers today deloft but they didn't 50 years ago?It seems to me like you're trying to use the facts that support your argument and ignoring the rest.
As to the argument about all these different kind of irons, again, marketing. Everyone claims to have a magic club that can improve your game but there's no magic in the club. The magic is in the person swinging the club. Always has been.
 
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Not missing that at all. I'm well aware they used to be 49°. Except apart from Tiger, no one Tour had played a 49° PW in at least the last decade. 46° has become the standard for blades and player's cavity backs and has been for some time.

I'm not arguing that high handicappers deloft the club. I'm saying that the SGI clubs are designed for high handicappers who add loft at impact. That's the opposite of delofting.

I'm using the facts that actually mean something. The facts that are actually relevant to designing clubs to help people hit the ball better regardless of the way they deliver the club.

All that to say, I'm done having this discussion with you. I know the physics and engineering behind these clubs and I'll take my knowledge on the subject over someone whining about marketing every day of the week.

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DRIVER PXG 0811XF GEN4 (10.5°)

FAIRWAY WOODS PXG 0341XF GEN4 (16°)

HYBRIDS PXG 0317XF GEN4 (19°), PXG 0317X GEN4 (22°)

IRONS PXG 0311T GEN3 (5 - 9)

WEDGES TAYLORMADE MG3 (45°, 50°, 55° TW Grind, 60° TW Grind)

PUTTER PXG BATTLE READY ONE & DONE

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6 minutes ago, FrogginBullfish said:

Not missing that at all. I'm well aware they used to be 49°. Except apart from Tiger, no one Tour had played a 49° PW in at least the last decade. 46° has become the standard for blades and player's cavity backs and has been for some time.

I'm not arguing that high handicappers deloft the club. I'm saying that the SGI clubs are designed for high handicappers who add loft at impact. That's the opposite of delofting.

I'm using the facts that actually mean something. The facts that are actually relevant to designing clubs to help people hit the ball better regardless of the way they deliver the club.

All that to say, I'm done having this discussion with you. I know the physics and engineering behind these clubs and I'll take my knowledge on the subject over someone whining about marketing every day of the week.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using MyGolfSpy mobile app
 

I haven't noticed any ads saying "our irons will keep you from hitting it too high."  I have noticed ads saying "our longest irons ever."

14 of the following:

Ping G430 Max 10.5 degree

Callaway 2023 Big Bertha 3 wood set to 17 degrees

Cobra F9 Speedback 7/8 wood set at 23.5 degrees

Callaway Epic Max 11 wood

Ping Eye 2 BeCu 2-SW

Mizuno 923 JPX HM HL 6-GW

Hogan sand wedge 56 degree bent to 53

Maltby M Series+ 54 degree

Ping Glide 3.0 Eye2 58 degree

Ping Glide 3.0 60 degree

Evnroll ER2

Ping Sigma 2 Anser

Cheap Top Flite mallet putter from Dick's, currently holding down first place in the bag

TaylorMade Mini Spider

Bridgestone XS

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LOL wow....

I haven't noticed any ads saying "our irons will keep you from hitting it too high."  I have noticed ads saying "our longest irons ever."


Sent from my Pixel 2 using MyGolfSpy mobile app

DRIVER PXG 0811XF GEN4 (10.5°)

FAIRWAY WOODS PXG 0341XF GEN4 (16°)

HYBRIDS PXG 0317XF GEN4 (19°), PXG 0317X GEN4 (22°)

IRONS PXG 0311T GEN3 (5 - 9)

WEDGES TAYLORMADE MG3 (45°, 50°, 55° TW Grind, 60° TW Grind)

PUTTER PXG BATTLE READY ONE & DONE

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Any thought that maybe, maybe the ball also something to do with all this?

 

 DRIVER: default_cobra-small.jpg.125f3712aad21ad9f7ca2c672e34a299.jpg  Cobra F-8 set at 10.5,  Aldila NV 2KXV Blue 60 (R) 44 1/2 "

3 & 5 WOOD: default_callaway-small.jpg.a58e7c6760b71a9eb95d385ecc5d2200.jpg Callaway XR-16, Fujikura Speeder Evolution 565 Red (R) 

IRONS 5-SW: default_ping-small.jpg.b7606a25498d65282474c96f18d2debd.jpg PING G-700, 2 upright, std loft  Alta CB (R) + 1/2"

HYBRID 3-4:  default_ping-small.jpg.b7606a25498d65282474c96f18d2debd.jpg PING G-410, 1 upright,  Alta CB 70 Red (R) + 1/2"

PUTTER: Byron Experimental GSS

 

 

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8 hours ago, MadMex said:

Any thought that maybe, maybe the ball also something to do with all this?

 

The ball probably has a role in it and it’s something I’ve heard shaft designers talk about regarding what they have to do to match driver heads from the various brands. The golf ball has been designed to fly straighter and have less spin than years ago. 

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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13 hours ago, FrogginBullfish said:

And I disagree with you and Middler and anyone else who screams marketing when there are actual engineering reasons behind everything.

Me pointing out Middler isn't listening to myself or others is a rebuttal of them stating that we aren't listening to their arguments.

Notice how there are still blades and cavity back irons with 46° PWs out there. Notice how there's been an expansion in the types of irons in the marketplace. These are all there to address specific areas in the marketplace so that companies can better provide for all types of delivery characteristics. Companies used to offer maybe 3 types of irons. Now we're seeing 6 or more as the norm from the big brands. There's a reason for it and it's not marketing.

So yeah, it's plenty valid.

 


Sent from my Pixel 2 using MyGolfSpy mobile app
 

 

 

Not according to Tom Wishon.

No offense, but when he says something that's contradictory to your message, I'm going to listen to him.

Driver: TM Original One 11.5* set to 11*, Aldila NV75 X, 43.5" -or- SpeedZone, HZRDUS Black 75 6.5, 43.5"
3w:  Cobra King LTD, RIP Beta 90, 42" -or- Stage 2 Tour, NV105 X, 42.5"
2h or 3h:  TaylorMade Stage 2 Tour, Aldila NV105 S -or- RIP Alpha 105 S
Irons:  3-PW Mizuno MP37, Recoil Proto 125 F4 (reshaft in progress, slowly); 1i & 3-PW Golden Ram TW276, NV105 S; 2-PW Golden Ram TW282, RIP Tour 115 R
GW: Dynacraft Dual Milled CNC 52*, Steelfiber 125 S; Scratch 8620 DS 53*, Steelfiber 125 S
SW:  Ram TG-898 56*, DGX ss2x; Ram Tom Watson 55*, DGX ss2x; Wilson Staff PMP 58*, DGS; PM Grind 19 58*, stock shaft
Putter:  Snake Eyes Viper Tour Sv1, 34"; Ping Scottsdale TR Craz-E, 35"; Cleveland Huntington Beach 1, 35"
Ball:  Wilson Staff Duo Professional, Bridgestone Tour B-RXS, Callaway Chrome Soft

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so if you deloft at impact, you technically should go weaker in loft on your clubs to keep trajectory, if i understand correctly. I know shaft loading and unloading can dictate this as well. I wish i could bend the lofts of my gamers, but i think the bounce would get affected too much

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I mean if you want to take one guy's word on it over the literal teams of engineers at the top manufacturers then by all means.

I'm going to take my knowledge and the knowledge of those teams of engineers at companies like Ping, Titleist, TaylorMade, Callaway, PXG, Cobra, Mizuno, etc. over the knowledge of a niche clubmaker with a borderline cult following though.

 
Not according to Tom Wishon.
No offense, but when he says something that's contradictory to your message, I'm going to listen to him.


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DRIVER PXG 0811XF GEN4 (10.5°)

FAIRWAY WOODS PXG 0341XF GEN4 (16°)

HYBRIDS PXG 0317XF GEN4 (19°), PXG 0317X GEN4 (22°)

IRONS PXG 0311T GEN3 (5 - 9)

WEDGES TAYLORMADE MG3 (45°, 50°, 55° TW Grind, 60° TW Grind)

PUTTER PXG BATTLE READY ONE & DONE

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Yes, that would be correct. The top players in the game hit down with their irons by a significant amount and they deloft at impact. With that, they can play more traditional, weaker lofts because they can maintain good launch angles and transfer energy to the ball better.

But again it's all about getting fit to your swing dynamics. Bryson had to strengthen his lofts a significant amount this year as his added speed was creating way too much spin, so his ball flights were ballooning.

The SGI irons are designed for players who flip the club through impact and have very shallow angles of attack that present additional loft at impact. Taking the loft off for them manages their launch angles and provides for a better energy transfer to the ball.

There's a lot that goes into this which is why it's so important to get fit for your swing dynamics.

so if you deloft at impact, you technically should go weaker in loft on your clubs to keep trajectory, if i understand correctly. I know shaft loading and unloading can dictate this as well. I wish i could bend the lofts of my gamers, but i think the bounce would get affected too much


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DRIVER PXG 0811XF GEN4 (10.5°)

FAIRWAY WOODS PXG 0341XF GEN4 (16°)

HYBRIDS PXG 0317XF GEN4 (19°), PXG 0317X GEN4 (22°)

IRONS PXG 0311T GEN3 (5 - 9)

WEDGES TAYLORMADE MG3 (45°, 50°, 55° TW Grind, 60° TW Grind)

PUTTER PXG BATTLE READY ONE & DONE

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14 hours ago, MadMex said:

Any thought that maybe, maybe the ball also something to do with all this?

 

I think it does I don't know if you have watched any of the TXG iron videos, but there is a broad range that can greatly help increase or decrease spin. In a live stream today testing the 921 line in the Hot Metal(Pro) and Forged they went with the Mizuno Tour ball and it was spinning close to 1,000 more than the Snell MTB taking a low spin GI and making it that much more playable. This can greatly increase carry and roll out turning a playable 6 iron into one that's too hot and can't hold a green.

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1 hour ago, FrogginBullfish said:

The SGI irons are designed for players who flip the club through impact and have very shallow angles of attack that present additional loft at impact. Taking the loft off for them manages their launch angles and provides for a better energy transfer to the ball.

 

I wasn't aware of the above. I had thought high handicappers were generally steeper.

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Tester for the Titleist TSi Driver

Spring 2020 MGS Tester for the Fujikura Motore X Shaft

Updated 07/15/2022
Driver:callaway-small: Rogue St Max LS - Autoflex
Fairway Woods:callaway-small: Rogue Max St 3HL and 7 Wood
Irons:mizuno-small: JPX 921 Hot Metal 5 to AW - Aerotech Steelfiber i95 Stiff parallel tip
Wedges:ping-small: Glide 4.0 54 and 58
Putter:  :ping-small: PLD Custom Kushin 4

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1 hour ago, dlow206 said:

I wasn't aware of the above. I had thought high handicappers were generally steeper.

Steeper and AOA are very different. 

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image.png.dee92ef6cebb2ac4a3883744fc248f12.png     Stealth 2+ 15 (Diamana PD 70 S 43")

:ping-small:          G425 19 (Raijin 2.0 85x)

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22 minutes ago, THEZIPR23 said:

Steeper and AOA are very different. 

Thanks, i am still learning.

I am going to do some reading

https://www.adamyounggolf.com/angle-attack-golf/

Follow my golf journey to break into the 80s

Tester for the Titleist TSi Driver

Spring 2020 MGS Tester for the Fujikura Motore X Shaft

Updated 07/15/2022
Driver:callaway-small: Rogue St Max LS - Autoflex
Fairway Woods:callaway-small: Rogue Max St 3HL and 7 Wood
Irons:mizuno-small: JPX 921 Hot Metal 5 to AW - Aerotech Steelfiber i95 Stiff parallel tip
Wedges:ping-small: Glide 4.0 54 and 58
Putter:  :ping-small: PLD Custom Kushin 4

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Adam Young is a great resource. I just bought his book earlier this year... The Practice Manual: The Ultimate Guide for Golfers.

Thanks, i am still learning.
I am going to do some reading
https://www.adamyounggolf.com/angle-attack-golf/


Sent from my Pixel 2 using MyGolfSpy mobile app

DRIVER PXG 0811XF GEN4 (10.5°)

FAIRWAY WOODS PXG 0341XF GEN4 (16°)

HYBRIDS PXG 0317XF GEN4 (19°), PXG 0317X GEN4 (22°)

IRONS PXG 0311T GEN3 (5 - 9)

WEDGES TAYLORMADE MG3 (45°, 50°, 55° TW Grind, 60° TW Grind)

PUTTER PXG BATTLE READY ONE & DONE

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4 hours ago, FrogginBullfish said:

I mean if you want to take one guy's word on it over the literal teams of engineers at the top manufacturers then by all means.

I'm going to take my knowledge and the knowledge of those teams of engineers at companies like Ping, Titleist, TaylorMade, Callaway, PXG, Cobra, Mizuno, etc. over the knowledge of a niche clubmaker with a borderline cult following though.

 


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When that "one guy" is a club designer with several decades in the tank, whose comments are available for to be read by anyone, as opposed to hearing a second-hand/third-hand/etc paraphrased comment?  Yeah, I think so.

Driver: TM Original One 11.5* set to 11*, Aldila NV75 X, 43.5" -or- SpeedZone, HZRDUS Black 75 6.5, 43.5"
3w:  Cobra King LTD, RIP Beta 90, 42" -or- Stage 2 Tour, NV105 X, 42.5"
2h or 3h:  TaylorMade Stage 2 Tour, Aldila NV105 S -or- RIP Alpha 105 S
Irons:  3-PW Mizuno MP37, Recoil Proto 125 F4 (reshaft in progress, slowly); 1i & 3-PW Golden Ram TW276, NV105 S; 2-PW Golden Ram TW282, RIP Tour 115 R
GW: Dynacraft Dual Milled CNC 52*, Steelfiber 125 S; Scratch 8620 DS 53*, Steelfiber 125 S
SW:  Ram TG-898 56*, DGX ss2x; Ram Tom Watson 55*, DGX ss2x; Wilson Staff PMP 58*, DGS; PM Grind 19 58*, stock shaft
Putter:  Snake Eyes Viper Tour Sv1, 34"; Ping Scottsdale TR Craz-E, 35"; Cleveland Huntington Beach 1, 35"
Ball:  Wilson Staff Duo Professional, Bridgestone Tour B-RXS, Callaway Chrome Soft

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23 hours ago, FrogginBullfish said:

There you go not listening again.

 

You clearly don't know what a ballooning ball flight is. Ballooning comes from an abundance of spin which cause the ball to rise in flight, like a balloon, through the Magnus Effect.

 

The flying too high with GI comes from players that add dynamic loft, which with more "traditional lofts" would create a launch angle that is too high. That's what creates a ball flight that is too high to be gameable.

 

But sure, keep bleating about on about marketing when you clearly know nothing about physics and engineering.

 

I’m not the one claiming ballooning was an issue, that’s from your loft jacking compadres. You want to assume your’re the only one with any technical understanding, but you’re not. But I agree you can’t hear any counterpoint as you’re mind is made up, based on facts that support your established view. I won’t waste your time, or mine. There was no physics or engineering reason to decouple the traditional loft/club number relationships, that’s marketing - no other reason for a 27* 7-iron...

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On 8/23/2020 at 2:04 PM, NRJyzr said:

Ping G400/G410/G700 all have a CG higher than the Eye2.

True enough...except that the photo suggests the PE2 data is a 5i.  You know, it's amazing how advanced the PE2's were for their time.

image.png.f616ff6fc26be6d642f21c5f9ad4b955.png

image.png.4d9888a5740a8af7000b661be1284ff0.png

image.png.b4014ec956c1af45d0f255c555fb3378.png

image.png.863bc677d626fa9cce287e0b514b19a9.png

:ping-small: G410 Plus, 9 Degree Driver 

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:ping-small: G400 SFT, 19 Degree 5w

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