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I hate to reignite the loft controversy, but...


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A buddy recently gave me his old set of Callaway X-20 irons.  Just for kicks and giggles, I had the lofts strengthened by 3 degrees to match my Callaway Mavrik Max irons.  The result?  Almost identical distance and height throughout the set.  Not a complete apples to oranges, of course.  The Mavriks have a lighter, senior graphite shaft, the X-20's have a regular flex graphite shaft.  The shaft length of the X-20's is slightly longer (my buddy is very tall).  Now, the X-20's have a reputation for being some of the most forgiving irons ever with an extremely low center of gravity, so that is a factor.  But, at least for a slower swinger like me, the idea that lofts have to be stronger to keep modern-designed irons from flying too high seems to be questionable at best.  Maybe a fast swinger with a high ball flight needs stronger lofts to keep SGI irons from flying too high,  but that golfer isn't the target audience anyway.

Ping G400 Max

Cobra King F9 Speedback 3 wood and 7/8 wood

Callaway Big Bertha Heavenwood

Taylormade M4 5 hybrid

Callaway Mavrik Max 6-GW (Mizuno HMB's when I'm feeling sporty)

Maltby M Series+ 54 degree

Ping Glide 3.0 Eye2 58 degree

Ping Sigma 2 Anser

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51 minutes ago, Hook DeLoft said:

A buddy recently gave me his old set of Callaway X-20 irons.  Just for kicks and giggles, I had the lofts strengthened by 3 degrees to match my Callaway Mavrik Max irons.  The result?  Almost identical distance and height throughout the set.  Not a complete apples to oranges, of course.  The Mavriks have a lighter, senior graphite shaft, the X-20's have a regular flex graphite shaft.  The shaft length of the X-20's is slightly longer (my buddy is very tall).  Now, the X-20's have a reputation for being some of the most forgiving irons ever with an extremely low center of gravity, so that is a factor.  But, at least for a slower swinger like me, the idea that lofts have to be stronger to keep modern-designed irons from flying too high seems to be questionable at best.  Maybe a fast swinger with a high ball flight needs stronger lofts to keep SGI irons from flying too high,  but that golfer isn't the target audience anyway.

Modern low CoG GI irons do launch a little higher. But that doesn’t mean the lofts/club numbers had to be changed, that’s mostly marketing distance. And the “flying too high” argument is nonsense. I’ve posted the obvious evidence several times, but the loft jacking supporters have refused to address the obvious for years.

Not common yet, but I’m beginning to see talk of carrying 5 specialty wedges lately. If your irons start at “5” or “6” why not. What a farce...

  • Callaway Rogue 10.5° 9.5°D & 3W
  • Mizuno JPX900 Forged 4-GW, S18 56.10, S18 60.06
  • Evnroll ER5B (replaced ER2)
  • and 14th club - Mizuno CLK 3H 19° OR MP-20 HMB 3i 19°
  • Snell MTB-X (replaced Black)
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4 hours ago, Middler said:

Modern low CoG GI irons do launch a little higher. But that doesn’t mean the lofts/club numbers had to be changed, that’s mostly marketing distance. And the “flying too high” argument is nonsense. I’ve posted the obvious evidence several times, but the loft jacking supporters have refused to address the obvious for years.

Not common yet, but I’m beginning to see talk of carrying 5 specialty wedges lately. If your irons start at “5” or “6” why not. What a farce...

 

Modern GI irons don't actually have CGs all that low.  They're certainly not lower than the irons of Olde.

Ping G400/G410/G700 all have a CG higher than the Eye2.  Titleist's new T series all have a CG that's no lower than the DCI 981's.

Its a shell game.

Driver: TM Original One 11.5* set to 10*, Aldila RIP Alpha 80 X, 43.5"
3w:  Cobra King LTD, Matrix 8m3 X, 42"
2h or 3h:  TaylorMade Stage 2 Tour, Aldila NV105 S
Irons:  3-PW Mizuno MP37, Recoil Proto 125 F4 (reshaft in progress, slowly); 1-PW Golden Ram TW282 or Vibration Matched Golden Rams, RIP Tour 115 R (coin flipping for the reshaft project); 1i & 3-PW Golden Ram TW276, NV105 S
GW: Dynacraft Dual Milled CNC 52*, DGS300; Scratch 8620 DS 53*, Steelfiber 125 S
SW:  Ram TG-898 56*, DGX ss2x; Ram Tom Watson 55*, DGX ss2x; Wilson Staff PMP 58*, DGS; Golden Ram TW276, DGS; Golden Ram TW282, DGS; Ram Troon Grind 56*, DGS
LW:  Maltby Design 60*, 1.05 sole, DGS; Maltby Design 60* 1.05 sole, NV105
Putter:  Snake Eyes Viper Tour Sv1, 34"
Ball:  Wilson Staff Duo Professional, or TM TP5

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Her's my two pesos,,,,,,,,,

 

At the risk of sounding like a coward and not taking a side, or being waaaayyyy of subject,,, the height of an iron shot depends in more than loft's.

I played for a long time in Western Texas/Eastern New Mexico were winds prevail,  constant high shots get eaten by the wind, so many golfers play low shots which avoid the wind and take advantage of the hard ground. So my swing was "grooved" to this, after I moved to California and the softer turf conditions, my low ball flight  killed me! Tried everything I could think of to have high shots with negative results, strong lofts, weak lofts, light weight stee/graphitel shafts, heavy steel/graphite shafts, combination of said items, nothing! 

It was not until I "re-grooved" my swing was I able to add height to my shots and find the shaft/loft combination, it ended up moving the ball forward in my stance, slower tempo, staying behind the ball through my swing and of course, PING G700, Alta CB (R) Graphite shafts + 1/2 ", 2 degrees upright. I can still call upon the low , under the wind shot.

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 DRIVER: default_cobra-small.jpg.125f3712aad21ad9f7ca2c672e34a299.jpg  Cobra F-8 set at 10.5,  Aldila NV 2KXV Blue 60 (R) 44 1/2 "

3 & 5 WOOD: default_callaway-small.jpg.a58e7c6760b71a9eb95d385ecc5d2200.jpg Callaway XR-16, Fujikura Speeder Evolution 565 Red (R) 

IRONS 5-SW: default_ping-small.jpg.b7606a25498d65282474c96f18d2debd.jpg PING G-700, 2 upright, std loft  Alta CB (R) + 1/2"

HYBRID 3-4:  default_ping-small.jpg.b7606a25498d65282474c96f18d2debd.jpg PING G-410, 1 upright,  Alta CB 70 Red (R) + 1/2"

PUTTER: Byron Experimental GSS

 

 

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Ive said it before and I'll say it again: jacked lofts are much, much more about distance and selling iron sets than it is about helping anyone play better.  Distance sells and when you can hit the 9-iron in your new set while all your buddies hit their 8-irons with the older irons, that sells.

People can talk about CGs and greater ball speeds neccecitation lower lofts and blah, blah, blah but its really all about distance.

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Whats in my Sun Mountain 2.5+ stand bag?

Woods: Tommy Armour Atomic 10.5* and Top-Flite Gamer 2020 18*

Irons: Pinemeadow ZR 3.0 5, 7 and 9-irons

Wedge: Tommy Armour VCG 56*

Putter: Wilson Augusta

Ball: Maxfli Tour X

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7 minutes ago, ZenGolfer said:

Ive said it before and I'll say it again: jacked lofts are much, much more about distance and selling iron sets than it is about helping anyone play better.  Distance sells and when you can hit the 9-iron in your new set while all your buddies hit their 8-irons with the older irons, that sells.

People can talk about CGs and greater ball speeds neccecitation lower lofts and blah, blah, blah but its really all about distance.

I agree. But there are lots of loft jacking supporters here who’ve continuously sneered down their noses to tell us iron manufacturers had to lower lofts to avoid ballooning/maintain trajectory. The ballooning part is pure BS. And changing lofts doesn’t make it necessary to change the loft/club number relationship anyway.

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I've provided the actual engineering response to your claims multiple times and you don't care to listen so you're just as bad as you think we are.

The facts are the so-called jacked loft irons you all love to scream marketing about are probably not even designed with you in mind. They're designed for players who deliver far too much dynamic loft at impact. Without taking loft off, their ball flights aren't gameable. But we wouldn't want to let actual engineering get in the way of you yelling at clouds about lofts on irons that aren't even meant for you.

Seriously though, this topic is so beyond overdone. There are so many options in the iron market out there that with a proper fitting, who the hell cares what the loft number is. It doesn't matter as long as the iron is fit to your delivery characteristics. That's why companies offer so many different types of irons. Quit worrying about loft and start worrying about whether your irons are fit to your swing dynamics and this whole screaming at clouds about lofts goes away.

Modern low CoG GI irons do launch a little higher. But that doesn’t mean the lofts/club numbers had to be changed, that’s mostly marketing distance. And the “flying too high” argument is nonsense. I’ve posted the obvious evidence several times, but the loft jacking supporters have refused to address the obvious for years.
Not common yet, but I’m beginning to see talk of carrying 5 specialty wedges lately. If your irons start at “5” or “6” why not. What a farce...


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25 minutes ago, FrogginBullfish said:

I've provided the actual engineering response to your claims multiple times and you don't care to listen so you're just as bad as you think we are.

Not listening, that’s your angle. We all understand the tech, that doesn’t explain why clubmakers decoupled lofts and club numbers. Your camp ignores that, and ballooning is nonsense. That’s almost entirely (distance) marketing. It’s overdone because of selective facts...

  • Callaway Rogue 10.5° 9.5°D & 3W
  • Mizuno JPX900 Forged 4-GW, S18 56.10, S18 60.06
  • Evnroll ER5B (replaced ER2)
  • and 14th club - Mizuno CLK 3H 19° OR MP-20 HMB 3i 19°
  • Snell MTB-X (replaced Black)
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There you go not listening again.

 

You clearly don't know what a ballooning ball flight is. Ballooning comes from an abundance of spin which cause the ball to rise in flight, like a balloon, through the Magnus Effect.

 

The flying too high with GI comes from players that add dynamic loft, which with more "traditional lofts" would create a launch angle that is too high. That's what creates a ball flight that is too high to be gameable.

 

But sure, keep bleating about on about marketing when you clearly know nothing about physics and engineering.

Not listening, that’s your angle. We all understand the tech, that doesn’t explain why clubmakers decoupled lofts and club numbers. Your camp ignores that, and ballooning is nonsense. That’s almost entirely (distance) marketing. It’s overdone because of selective facts...

 

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I've provided the actual engineering response to your claims multiple times and you don't care to listen so you're just as bad as you think we are.

The facts are the so-called jacked loft irons you all love to scream marketing about are probably not even designed with you in mind. They're designed for players who deliver far too much dynamic loft at impact. Without taking loft off, their ball flights aren't gameable. But we wouldn't want to let actual engineering get in the way of you yelling at clouds about lofts on irons that aren't even meant for you.

Seriously though, this topic is so beyond overdone. There are so many options in the iron market out there that with a proper fitting, who the hell cares what the loft number is. It doesn't matter as long as the iron is fit to your delivery characteristics. That's why companies offer so many different types of irons. Quit worrying about loft and start worrying about whether your irons are fit to your swing dynamics and this whole screaming at clouds about lofts goes away.


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That might be valid if it were only true on GI irons but the lofts on all irons have gotten stronger over the years.
Disagreeing with your point doesn't mean people aren't listening or being stubborn, we simply disagree with you.

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Whats in my Sun Mountain 2.5+ stand bag?

Woods: Tommy Armour Atomic 10.5* and Top-Flite Gamer 2020 18*

Irons: Pinemeadow ZR 3.0 5, 7 and 9-irons

Wedge: Tommy Armour VCG 56*

Putter: Wilson Augusta

Ball: Maxfli Tour X

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And I disagree with you and Middler and anyone else who screams marketing when there are actual engineering reasons behind everything.

Me pointing out Middler isn't listening to myself or others is a rebuttal of them stating that we aren't listening to their arguments.

Notice how there are still blades and cavity back irons with 46° PWs out there. Notice how there's been an expansion in the types of irons in the marketplace. These are all there to address specific areas in the marketplace so that companies can better provide for all types of delivery characteristics. Companies used to offer maybe 3 types of irons. Now we're seeing 6 or more as the norm from the big brands. There's a reason for it and it's not marketing.

So yeah, it's plenty valid.

That might be valid if it were only true on GI irons but the lofts on all irons have gotten stronger over the years.
Disagreeing with your point doesn't mean people aren't listening or being stubborn, we simply disagree with you.

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And I disagree with you and Middler and anyone else who screams marketing when there are actual engineering reasons behind everything.

 

Me pointing out Middler isn't listening to myself or others is a rebuttal of them stating that we aren't listening to their arguments.

 

Notice how there are still blades and cavity back irons with 46° PWs out there. Notice how there's been an expansion in the types of irons in the marketplace. These are all there to address specific areas in the marketplace so that companies can better provide for all types of delivery characteristics. Companies used to offer maybe 3 types of irons. Now we're seeing 6 or more as the norm from the big brands. There's a reason for it and it's not marketing.

 

So yeah, it's plenty valid.

 

 

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Right but PWs used to be 49 degrees, which is the point you're missing. You're telling me that high handicappers today deloft but they didn't 50 years ago?

It seems to me like you're trying to use the facts that support your argument and ignoring the rest.

As to the argument about all these different kind of irons, again, marketing. Everyone claims to have a magic club that can improve your game but there's no magic in the club. The magic is in the person swinging the club. Always has been.

 

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Whats in my Sun Mountain 2.5+ stand bag?

Woods: Tommy Armour Atomic 10.5* and Top-Flite Gamer 2020 18*

Irons: Pinemeadow ZR 3.0 5, 7 and 9-irons

Wedge: Tommy Armour VCG 56*

Putter: Wilson Augusta

Ball: Maxfli Tour X

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Right but PWs used to be 49 degrees, which is the point you're missing. You're telling me that high handicappers today deloft but they didn't 50 years ago?It seems to me like you're trying to use the facts that support your argument and ignoring the rest.
As to the argument about all these different kind of irons, again, marketing. Everyone claims to have a magic club that can improve your game but there's no magic in the club. The magic is in the person swinging the club. Always has been.
 
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Not missing that at all. I'm well aware they used to be 49°. Except apart from Tiger, no one Tour had played a 49° PW in at least the last decade. 46° has become the standard for blades and player's cavity backs and has been for some time.

I'm not arguing that high handicappers deloft the club. I'm saying that the SGI clubs are designed for high handicappers who add loft at impact. That's the opposite of delofting.

I'm using the facts that actually mean something. The facts that are actually relevant to designing clubs to help people hit the ball better regardless of the way they deliver the club.

All that to say, I'm done having this discussion with you. I know the physics and engineering behind these clubs and I'll take my knowledge on the subject over someone whining about marketing every day of the week.

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6 minutes ago, FrogginBullfish said:

Not missing that at all. I'm well aware they used to be 49°. Except apart from Tiger, no one Tour had played a 49° PW in at least the last decade. 46° has become the standard for blades and player's cavity backs and has been for some time.

I'm not arguing that high handicappers deloft the club. I'm saying that the SGI clubs are designed for high handicappers who add loft at impact. That's the opposite of delofting.

I'm using the facts that actually mean something. The facts that are actually relevant to designing clubs to help people hit the ball better regardless of the way they deliver the club.

All that to say, I'm done having this discussion with you. I know the physics and engineering behind these clubs and I'll take my knowledge on the subject over someone whining about marketing every day of the week.

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I haven't noticed any ads saying "our irons will keep you from hitting it too high."  I have noticed ads saying "our longest irons ever."

Ping G400 Max

Cobra King F9 Speedback 3 wood and 7/8 wood

Callaway Big Bertha Heavenwood

Taylormade M4 5 hybrid

Callaway Mavrik Max 6-GW (Mizuno HMB's when I'm feeling sporty)

Maltby M Series+ 54 degree

Ping Glide 3.0 Eye2 58 degree

Ping Sigma 2 Anser

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Any thought that maybe, maybe the ball also something to do with all this?

 

 DRIVER: default_cobra-small.jpg.125f3712aad21ad9f7ca2c672e34a299.jpg  Cobra F-8 set at 10.5,  Aldila NV 2KXV Blue 60 (R) 44 1/2 "

3 & 5 WOOD: default_callaway-small.jpg.a58e7c6760b71a9eb95d385ecc5d2200.jpg Callaway XR-16, Fujikura Speeder Evolution 565 Red (R) 

IRONS 5-SW: default_ping-small.jpg.b7606a25498d65282474c96f18d2debd.jpg PING G-700, 2 upright, std loft  Alta CB (R) + 1/2"

HYBRID 3-4:  default_ping-small.jpg.b7606a25498d65282474c96f18d2debd.jpg PING G-410, 1 upright,  Alta CB 70 Red (R) + 1/2"

PUTTER: Byron Experimental GSS

 

 

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8 hours ago, MadMex said:

Any thought that maybe, maybe the ball also something to do with all this?

 

The ball probably has a role in it and it’s something I’ve heard shaft designers talk about regarding what they have to do to match driver heads from the various brands. The golf ball has been designed to fly straighter and have less spin than years ago. 

Driver: Titleist 917D3 9.5 with Graphite Design MAD Pro 65g S

Wood: Titleist 917F2 with UST Mamiya Helium 5F4

Hybrid: Titleist 816H1 21 with Atmos Blue 85 S

Irons: Titleist 718 AP3 4i, 718 CB 5-6, MB 7-9 with KBS $ Taper 125

Wedges: Vokey SM7 46/50/54/60 with DG s200

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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13 hours ago, FrogginBullfish said:

And I disagree with you and Middler and anyone else who screams marketing when there are actual engineering reasons behind everything.

Me pointing out Middler isn't listening to myself or others is a rebuttal of them stating that we aren't listening to their arguments.

Notice how there are still blades and cavity back irons with 46° PWs out there. Notice how there's been an expansion in the types of irons in the marketplace. These are all there to address specific areas in the marketplace so that companies can better provide for all types of delivery characteristics. Companies used to offer maybe 3 types of irons. Now we're seeing 6 or more as the norm from the big brands. There's a reason for it and it's not marketing.

So yeah, it's plenty valid.

 


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Not according to Tom Wishon.

No offense, but when he says something that's contradictory to your message, I'm going to listen to him.

Driver: TM Original One 11.5* set to 10*, Aldila RIP Alpha 80 X, 43.5"
3w:  Cobra King LTD, Matrix 8m3 X, 42"
2h or 3h:  TaylorMade Stage 2 Tour, Aldila NV105 S
Irons:  3-PW Mizuno MP37, Recoil Proto 125 F4 (reshaft in progress, slowly); 1-PW Golden Ram TW282 or Vibration Matched Golden Rams, RIP Tour 115 R (coin flipping for the reshaft project); 1i & 3-PW Golden Ram TW276, NV105 S
GW: Dynacraft Dual Milled CNC 52*, DGS300; Scratch 8620 DS 53*, Steelfiber 125 S
SW:  Ram TG-898 56*, DGX ss2x; Ram Tom Watson 55*, DGX ss2x; Wilson Staff PMP 58*, DGS; Golden Ram TW276, DGS; Golden Ram TW282, DGS; Ram Troon Grind 56*, DGS
LW:  Maltby Design 60*, 1.05 sole, DGS; Maltby Design 60* 1.05 sole, NV105
Putter:  Snake Eyes Viper Tour Sv1, 34"
Ball:  Wilson Staff Duo Professional, or TM TP5

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so if you deloft at impact, you technically should go weaker in loft on your clubs to keep trajectory, if i understand correctly. I know shaft loading and unloading can dictate this as well. I wish i could bend the lofts of my gamers, but i think the bounce would get affected too much

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3W: :callaway-small: Epic Flash SZ with HZRDUS Yellow 6.5 UPRT or PXG 0311X HZRDUS Smoke Black S 2.5* upright

3H: :Sub70: 939X UST proforce V2 black F3 hybrid soft stepped XStiff UPRT setting

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Ball: :Snell:or KSigs or :taylormade-small: TP5 pix 2.0

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I mean if you want to take one guy's word on it over the literal teams of engineers at the top manufacturers then by all means.

I'm going to take my knowledge and the knowledge of those teams of engineers at companies like Ping, Titleist, TaylorMade, Callaway, PXG, Cobra, Mizuno, etc. over the knowledge of a niche clubmaker with a borderline cult following though.

 
Not according to Tom Wishon.
No offense, but when he says something that's contradictory to your message, I'm going to listen to him.


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