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Can a pro handle YOUR course/Playing conditions?


MadMex

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As I was reading this post 

I started thinking of other things I have seen in or on courses that not many pro's could handle since they never seen them, for instance:

1) Like the posts said, bunkers with little sand, how about NO SAND or about 1/4 inch of sand then rock hard packed dirt

2) Waiting for the grounds keeper to stop cutting the green, and get off the green. Only to find out it's only half cut.

3) Round top Tee boxes

4) 18 different green speeds.

5) Crappy range balls

6) Driving range mats,

 

Am sure you have some,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,  

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A pro would go out and shoot in the low 60s at any 90% of our public courses, then be blown away griping about how poor conditions are vs. PGA courses.

 

The ones that they wouldn't are the group of insane ones with a slope north of 140. You know, the ones where someone will make the architects pay for what they've done to the land.

 

That's the issue IMO is that there is a total disconnect between public golf and USGA-PGA. The governing bodies don't even consider what life is like on an average quality public course.

 

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8 hours ago, Tsmithjr9 said:

A pro would go out and shoot in the low 60s at any 90% of our public courses, then be blown away griping about how poor conditions are vs. PGA courses.

 

The ones that they wouldn't are the group of insane ones with a slope north of 140. You know, the ones where someone will make the architects pay for what they've done to the land.

 

That's the issue IMO is that there is a total disconnect between public golf and USGA-PGA. The governing bodies don't even consider what life is like on an average quality public course.

 

Take Dead Aim

 

 

 

 

They will shoot good scores, but I don’t think in the range many think, I think Europeans can since they play all those link courses,

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IRONS 5-SW: default_ping-small.jpg.b7606a25498d65282474c96f18d2debd.jpg PING G-700, 2 upright, std loft  Alta CB (R) + 1/2"

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A typical PGA Tour player would carry a handicap of about +6.  The average score for most players is 2 or 3 strokes higher than their handicap, so typical scores for a typical pro might be 3 or 4 strokes under the Course Rating.  At my home club, with a CR of 72.0, that would suggest that a typical pro might shoot 68 or 69 from my tees, a couple of strokes higher from the back.  That doesn't mean a pro couldn't go really low, but without specific course knowledge he's unlikely to really light it up.

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Absolutely, they would eat it up. The reason they are the best players in the world is not because they hit from perfect lies, it is because they have EVERY shot in the bag. 

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A pro could probably play the round with a range ball and still tear it up out there on my course. And it is by no means an easy course, 71.9/132 from the blue tees.

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I believe a current tour pro (Koepka/Finau) in their prime would likely shoot 56-60.  Hemlock Springs Slope 129, Rating 72.8,(6800 from back tees) a public course I play,  the course record is held by Ben Curtis (shot 64).  Now I'm guessing that was  college kid Ben Curtis using circa 1995//1998 golf equipment, and ball.  But MadMex's  point is well taken on conditions.  I see most commenting on this are from warm  locales.  Here a pro is going to want to claim residual water everywhere as wet as some places are around here until mid/late May.

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I believe a current tour pro (Koepka/Finau) in their prime would likely shoot 56-60.  Hemlock Springs Slope 129, Rating 72.8,(6800 from back tees) a public course I play,  the course record is held by Ben Curtis (shot 64).  Now I'm guessing that was  college kid Ben Curtis using circa 1995//1998 golf equipment, and ball.  But MadMex's  point is well taken on conditions.  I see most commenting on this are from warm  locales.  Here a pro is going to want to claim residual water everywhere as wet as some places are around here until mid/late May.
I am NE Ohio as well. Even from the tips, our courses are 200-500 yards shorter than anything on tour. Regardless of conditions these guys are going to have wedges into everything, and reach all par 5s in 2. They are going low. The only courses that would mess with them is Boulder Creek which is 7400 yards from the tips (though I've never seen the black tees set that far back). And the aforementioned closed Thunder Hill which was 7500 + over 100 lakes on course. At one point it was on the 100 toughest in US list.

IMO the tour doesn't want any part of courses like that, artifically tricked up by an insane architect. I think that's why, in part, they have the TPC network, so everything can be controlled and protected. Recall, back in the 80s Tanglewood hosted PGA events, and that only lasted a few years.

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This has actually happened, several years ago.  This is a piece form the Washington Post I have posted a time or two when this topic comes up. Steve Marino is a local DMV guy who played on Tour for a few years.   He went out and played as public of mujni as there is in the area.   Here's what happened.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/01/AR2007070101221.html?sid=ST2009071701245

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27 minutes ago, Golfspy_CG2 said:

This has actually happened, several years ago.  This is a piece form the Washington Post I have posted a time or two when this topic comes up. Steve Marino is a local DMV guy who played on Tour for a few years.   He went out and played as public of mujni as there is in the area.   Here's what happened.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/01/AR2007070101221.html?sid=ST2009071701245

Cool story.... these sections stuck out for me:

The more I watched Marino play, the more convinced I became that golf, for us, involved little common ground. When I asked Marino about the obstacles I considered daunting on PGA Tour courses -- long holes, imposing water hazards, gigantic bunkers -- Marino said they never bothered him. Similarly, at East Potomac, Marino obsessed over details I had never noticed. Overgrown fairways made it impossible, he said, to generate substantial spin on iron shots. Stiff sand traps caused the ball to release on a flat trajectory, negating the importance of touch.

The greens bothered Marino most. After six months spent on greens that ran as fast as tiled kitchen floors, Marino now felt like he was putting along the bottom of a filled swimming pool. No matter how hard he hit it, the ball almost always slid through sand or water and grinded to a halt short of the hole. After Marino left two consecutive putts short on No. 11, he dropped his putter on the green.

"It's just kind of like you hit it and guess where it goes on this course," Marino said. "I don't think I'd ever shoot over par on a course like this, but I'm not sure I could ever go really low. On nice courses, you know when you hit a good shot that you're going to get rewarded for it. So if you're playing great, you score great. Here, you just never know."

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30 minutes ago, Golfspy_CG2 said:

This has actually happened, several years ago.  This is a piece form the Washington Post I have posted a time or two when this topic comes up. Steve Marino is a local DMV guy who played on Tour for a few years.   He went out and played as public of mujni as there is in the area.   Here's what happened.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/01/AR2007070101221.html?sid=ST2009071701245

If I remember right, Marino came out of Fairfax CC.  I'm not surprised at his score, that's kind of what I had guessed up there.  

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Isn't there a recent blog post about this? 

 

Actually guys on tour are better than the 6 that we have always assumed - plus 6 is mini tour type stuff - I've played a lot with them lately and I can tell you that they would shoot in the low 60's at about anything you'd throw at them very regularly.  I've watched one go back to back 63's on a local country club from the tips and the course rating there is 73.5.  They will generally shoot mid 60's at mine with a course rating of 74.4.  A lot would depend upon how many times they've played the track. 

 

I think you'll be stunned at how low the blog post suggests that Tour players would shoot on your course.  Check it out and you'll see but someone playing his best would be in the 50's a few times out of 20 on most munis.

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Yeah your're right!  Thunderhill where water was in play on EVERY shot, even putting it seemed like some days!  Yes, maybe before your time, even Web.com tour(Korn Ferry),  at Quail Hollow Devlin Course in 2001 ( par 72 at that time) just looked up.  Not to minimize it but Heath Slocum(never really heard of him) won that event, he did survive some years on PGA tour, up and down to web.com, played in 18 majors(1 top 10, and 1 top 25),  so obviously a top quality golfer,  Shot 8 under 64 round 1, and 6 under 66 round 2, total -21.  Now picture (Thomas, Speith, Johnson, Morikawa)  guys in their absolute prime teeing up on our local courses.  Yikes!  On a good putting day for them 20 under may be in order.

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....not to mention that there was a 59 and a 60 shot at TPC Norton on the same day last week. If guys can do that on courses set up for PGA tour conditions I cannot even imagine what they can do on public courses. 

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17 minutes ago, GolfSpy Stroker said:

Cool story.... these sections stuck out for me:

The more I watched Marino play, the more convinced I became that golf, for us, involved little common ground. When I asked Marino about the obstacles I considered daunting on PGA Tour courses -- long holes, imposing water hazards, gigantic bunkers -- Marino said they never bothered him. Similarly, at East Potomac, Marino obsessed over details I had never noticed. Overgrown fairways made it impossible, he said, to generate substantial spin on iron shots. Stiff sand traps caused the ball to release on a flat trajectory, negating the importance of touch.

The greens bothered Marino most. After six months spent on greens that ran as fast as tiled kitchen floors, Marino now felt like he was putting along the bottom of a filled swimming pool. No matter how hard he hit it, the ball almost always slid through sand or water and grinded to a halt short of the hole. After Marino left two consecutive putts short on No. 11, he dropped his putter on the green.

"It's just kind of like you hit it and guess where it goes on this course," Marino said. "I don't think I'd ever shoot over par on a course like this, but I'm not sure I could ever go really low. On nice courses, you know when you hit a good shot that you're going to get rewarded for it. So if you're playing great, you score great. Here, you just never know."

Yep, the part about water hazards and bunkers is so true.  I"m guessing in 95% of the cases carrying a water hazard isn't even a thought for them.  For us, it's about can I do it, should I try, etc.   And bunkers, you hear it all the time, from the announcers talking about what a good break it was for them rolling into the bunker as opposed to the rough.  

14 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

If I remember right, Marino came out of Fairfax CC.  I'm not surprised at his score, that's kind of what I had guessed up there.  

You are correct, came out of Fairfax, CC.   I was following his group one year at TPC--not him specifically but a friend of mine was caddying in the group.  He had a large contingent of buddies from the club out following him.   

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You are correct, came out of Fairfax, CC.   I was following his group one year at TPC--not him specifically but a friend of mine was caddying in the group.  He had a large contingent of buddies from the club out following him.   

That's where the extra thick professionally made yardage books come in. I imagine that if it's off the tee, they know they can carry it without issue and if it's just left or right they know the miss and aim well away from hazards. Just don't even challenge it.

 

And the bunkers are so nice on tour they could care less about being in the sand. I've seen several interviews with pros saying how they prefer the sand to rough. Unless it's a fried egg they'll have a better lie and more control out of the bunker than the rough.

 

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Links at ivy ridge a course I play when I’m in buffalo area the course record was set by DJ.
 

 

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The typical pro is going to shoot well on any course they play, regardless of conditions.  The typical 10 handicap player, on the other hand, could probably not break 100 playing their course/tees.  😄 😄  

 

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Its perfectly fair to look at the 59 and 60 shot last week, to look at the winner each week.  But we also have to look at PGA Tour Professionals who are slamming their trunk on Friday each weekend.  Those guys have included Speith, Day, DJ, Koepka all within pretty recent memory.  Guys missed the cut at the Northern Trust by 6 and 8 strokes, really fine experiences players!  Dustin shot 160 over 2 days at Muirfield about a month ago.  Those guys, playing at that level, are still likely to be under par at our day-to-day courses, but they're not going to shoot 61.  And has been said, without the practice rounds, without the detailed yardage books, the green-reading books, on shaggy fairways, slow bumpy greens, and bare bunkers, send 'em out there with a trolley and their wits, I just don't see a huge percentage of really low scores.

If you can get a couple of dozen players all playing well and put them on our courses, someone will light it up.  Take one random pro out of a 156-player PGA Tour field, its a whole lot less likely.

Edited by DaveP043

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13 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Its perfectly fair to look at the 59 and 60 shot last week, to look at the winner each week.  But we also have to look at PGA Tour Professionals who are slamming their trunk on Friday each weekend.  Those guys have included Speith, Day, DJ, Koepka all within pretty recent memory.  Guys missed the cut at the Northern Trust by 6 and 8 strokes, really fine experiences players!  Dustin shot 160 over 2 days at Muirfield about a month ago.  Those guys, playing at that level, are still likely to be under par at our day-to-day courses, but they're not going to shoot 61.  And has been said, without the practice rounds, without the detailed yardage books, the green-reading books, on shaggy fairways, slow bumpy greens, and bare bunkers, send 'em out there with a trolley and their wits, I just don't see a huge percentage of really low scores.

If you can get a couple of dozen players all playing well and put them on our courses, someone will light it up.  Take one random pro out of a 156-player PGA Tour field, its a whole lot less likely.

I suppose this is true - when I reviewed the blog post it was top pros and what they might shoot on your course - the risk is (if we aren't wanting them to go low) that the "better the course" the better the conditions and the lower thy might shoot.  The worse the conditions the more likely the course is to be shorter and thus the more wedges, the more balls hit close - the lower the scores.  I enjoyed the Marino article but consider how much longer the guys are hitting the ball today than they were in 2007 -  13 years ago -

 

Brittany Lincecome was a member at my course, she always played from the tips - 7,200, course rating of 74.4 - she often shot in the 60's from there - often. 

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A side note, but it’s interesting to me evidently none of the mega stars of golf have broken 60 in a tour event - Woods, Nicklaus, Palmer, Snead, Jones, etc. Not to slight those who have, there are some stars, but they’re not the mega stars. And Furyk is the only 58, along with a 59. https://www.liveabout.com/all-time-best-18-hole-score-1565892#:~:text=The Lowest Round in PGA Tour History The,Travelers Championship at TPC River Highlands in Connecticut.

Depends largely on the course too obviously, e.g. the lowest round ever at The Masters and the US Open is still 63.

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6 minutes ago, revkev said:

I suppose this is true - when I reviewed the blog post it was top pros and what they might shoot on your course - the risk is (if we aren't wanting them to go low) that the "better the course" the better the conditions and the lower thy might shoot.  The worse the conditions the more likely the course is to be shorter and thus the more wedges, the more balls hit close - the lower the scores.  I enjoyed the Marino article but consider how much longer the guys are hitting the ball today than they were in 2007 -  13 years ago -

 

Brittany Lincecome was a member at my course, she always played from the tips - 7,200, course rating of 74.4 - she often shot in the 60's from there - often. 

I think a lot of this discussion hinges on how the "event" is set up.  Is it a top pro, playing in a stretch of his best golf, or is it a random Tour Pro (still an exceptional player to be on the tour) taken at a random time?  Does the pro get a few practice rounds, and a caddie, or is he seeing the course for the first time, and figuring it all out on his own?  Is the course in excellent shape (for a "normal course"), or is it the way we'd see it every other day of the year?

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8 hours ago, Golfspy_CG2 said:

This has actually happened, several years ago.  This is a piece form the Washington Post I have posted a time or two when this topic comes up. Steve Marino is a local DMV guy who played on Tour for a few years.   He went out and played as public of mujni as there is in the area.   Here's what happened.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/01/AR2007070101221.html?sid=ST2009071701245

That is an awesome article. 

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17 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

I think a lot of this discussion hinges on how the "event" is set up.  Is it a top pro, playing in a stretch of his best golf, or is it a random Tour Pro (still an exceptional player to be on the tour) taken at a random time?  Does the pro get a few practice rounds, and a caddie, or is he seeing the course for the first time, and figuring it all out on his own?  Is the course in excellent shape (for a "normal course"), or is it the way we'd see it every other day of the year?

Completely agree - the guys playing here are not top touring pro status but most of us would be very hard pressed to tell the difference between a Korn Ferry guy or PGA tour guy on the range.  I suspect it's that way in casual rounds as well - the differences surface when they are between the ropes and particularly when they are between the ropes without their A games. 

 

The guys or LPGA gals that show up to play that Friday game know the course.  They've grown up in St. Pete or lived here and played it numerous times.  They aren't showing up in the summer because they are out on tour and that's when the course might be in an odd condition - inconsistent bunkers because of the rain, greens aerated or not mowed as frequently or as short to protect them from the sun - in the winter when they are around scoring is ideal, traps are still inconsistent, because it is a muni and they aren't often raked properly, but less so, greens aren't fast but they are fast enough and pretty smooth, other than going at par 5's in 2 or the par 3's they are going to have wedge into all the greens and since there is no rough to speak of that time of year there's nothing particularly tight.  Anyone playing the game for a living is playing a par 65 - there are at least 3 drivable par 4's for about all of them, including Brittany, under the right conditions.  And this course has a rating of 71.3 from the tips - nothing special but not a cake walk for a guy with a handicap, either. 

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Agree with Dave P depends on parameters your putting on it.   I'm talking prime tour players right now (Johnson, Koepka, Morikawa, Fleetwood), what would they shoot on my local course, from my tees,  around 6000 yards, not the tips on some almost championship course with undulating greens.  Lets give that foursome a couple practice rounds, and a day like they get (pre-tournament) to go out and roll putts on all the greens, knowing where the pin placements are going to be. Blackbrook CC (par 71) near me, city owned, decent conditions, but all in all flat greens, If one of those guys playing four rounds like it was a tournament didn't shoot sub 55  I would be very surprised.  Not only are they going to have a wedge into EVERY GREEN, on all but 2 par 4's they'll have much less than 50 yards to the pins if they don't drive most of them, I'm assuming (only a)  310-20 yard drive, and on the other 2 maybe 80 yards,  maybe 150-190  yards to pin on all 3 par 5's.  As noted the sub 60 scores noted above are 11, 12, or 13 under on Championship courses, with fast undulating greens .  I don't think 3 eagles on the driveable 4's  , and reachable 5's, and 10-12 other birdies for 55-53 is out of the question. 

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26 minutes ago, stuka44 said:

Agree with Dave P depends on parameters your putting on it.   I'm talking prime tour players right now (Johnson, Koepka, Morikawa, Fleetwood), what would they shoot on my local course, from my tees,  around 6000 yards, not the tips on some almost championship course with undulating greens.  Lets give that foursome a couple practice rounds, and a day like they get (pre-tournament) to go out and roll putts on all the greens, knowing where the pin placements are going to be. Blackbrook CC (par 71) near me, city owned, decent conditions, but all in all flat greens, If one of those guys playing four rounds like it was a tournament didn't shoot sub 55  I would be very surprised.  Not only are they going to have a wedge into EVERY GREEN, on all but 2 par 4's they'll have much less than 50 yards to the pins if they don't drive most of them, I'm assuming (only a)  310-20 yard drive, and on the other 2 maybe 80 yards,  maybe 150-190  yards to pin on all 3 par 5's.  As noted the sub 60 scores noted above are 11, 12, or 13 under on Championship courses, with fast undulating greens .  I don't think 3 eagles on the driveable 4's  , and reachable 5's, and 10-12 other birdies for 55-53 is out of the question. 

You might want to review PGA Tour statistics.  There are 3 par-5 holes, nominally 460 yards.  The typical pro will average just about 4 strokes on those, based on 2019 stats.  8 "longer" par4 holes, tour average 3.6.  3 "shorter" par 4s, average 3.4.  4 par-3 holes, average 2.9.  That all adds up to about a 65, 6 under par, 5 under the course rating.  Maybe lighter rough and flat greens will lower scores, maybe bumpier greens and fuzzy fairways (by Tour standards) will raise scores a bit.  Remember the Marino article, one of his biggest problems was adjusting to "public golf greens".  And like in every 4-day event, you'll see a few better rounds, and a few worse ones.  I can see someone threatening 60 if given a few tries, I can certainly see someone shooting 70+.   But for someone to go 10 strokes better than "average", I just don't see it happening.

We talk about sub-60 scores on tournament courses, how many of those have actually happened?  5 or 6, in all of recorded time?  We talk about prime tour players, are you counting the same Johnson who shot 80-80 about 6 weeks ago?  Which one are you going to get when he comes to your course?

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1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

You might want to review PGA Tour statistics.  There are 3 par-5 holes, nominally 460 yards.  The typical pro will average just about 4 strokes on those, based on 2019 stats.  8 "longer" par4 holes, tour average 3.6.  3 "shorter" par 4s, average 3.4.  4 par-3 holes, average 2.9.  That all adds up to about a 65, 6 under par, 5 under the course rating.  Maybe lighter rough and flat greens will lower scores, maybe bumpier greens and fuzzy fairways (by Tour standards) will raise scores a bit.  Remember the Marino article, one of his biggest problems was adjusting to "public golf greens".  And like in every 4-day event, you'll see a few better rounds, and a few worse ones.  I can see someone threatening 60 if given a few tries, I can certainly see someone shooting 70+.   But for someone to go 10 strokes better than "average", I just don't see it happening.

We talk about sub-60 scores on tournament courses, how many of those have actually happened?  5 or 6, in all of recorded time?  We talk about prime tour players, are you counting the same Johnson who shot 80-80 about 6 weeks ago?  Which one are you going to get when he comes to your course?

This is a fun discussion - my contention would be that even the 80-80 guy would have little trouble shooting in the low 60's if he where familiar with most muni's set up the way that we are accustomed.  Pins aren't going to be hidden, he's going to hit wedge, after wedge, after wedge and there will be no pressure.  Any attempt at giving him a traditional handicap falls short because it's difficult to determine the course rating of the typical PGA tour course - I've read 77 or so.

 

By all accounts Marino just showed up and was not familiar with the course.  Plus it's a one shot deal in his case - what if he were the high man in a field of 150?  We can't know but what if.  Maybe my view was tainted by playing those rounds with the mini-tour guys this Spring.  They could shoot 67 on most muni's in their sleep and low 60's would always be a possibility.  They aren't playing on the PGA tour nor are the likely to. 

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This is a fun discussion - my contention would be that even the 80-80 guy would have little trouble shooting in the low 60's if he where familiar with most muni's set up the way that we are accustomed.  Pins aren't going to be hidden, he's going to hit wedge, after wedge, after wedge and there will be no pressure.  Any attempt at giving him a traditional handicap falls short because it's difficult to determine the course rating of the typical PGA tour course - I've read 77 or so.
 
By all accounts Marino just showed up and was not familiar with the course.  Plus it's a one shot deal in his case - what if he were the high man in a field of 150?  We can't know but what if.  Maybe my view was tainted by playing those rounds with the mini-tour guys this Spring.  They could shoot 67 on most muni's in their sleep and low 60's would always be a possibility.  They aren't playing on the PGA tour nor are the likely to. 
This is a much more eloquent take on the point I was trying to make. I agree pros would break par without breaking a sweat. Compared to us working to break 80 from the same tees, that is absolutely tearing it up. And if they have the AAA game on they could go super low.

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Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree again, that''s OK, that's what makes this fun.   Again I am saying give them practice rounds, and another day to just putt and get used to the speed of the greens on Blackbrook.  Given a 300 yard drive on the course I mentioned(6000 yards) 1 par 4 is driveable, 7 approaches with be from less than 70 yards, then 88, 98, and 136.  He will have 159, 164, and 160 into the par 5's for his second shot, and the par 3's are the biggest challenge 171, 154, 185, 159.   As mentioned previously, I am talking a course with no false fronts, very few holes have sand, and if it is its not fronting the green.  Greens are very flat, only a few  have only the slightest of what could be called tiers  and very little substantial undulation, some uphill and downhill, but nothing like the mogul skiing bumps you see on some courses.  I can picture with practice and let a real good foursome of current, playing well right now top tour pros out there, and somebody is breaking 60.

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I think abnormal course conditions/poor maintenance would throw anyone off, including pros.

My course is normally pretty pristine in terms of condition. However there have been a few abnormal days:

  • So wet and so much water on the course that the holes were halfway filled with water. The greens were basically un-puttable. I actually stopped putting at all after a couple holes
  • Piles of aeration plugs sitting around the greens. I lost a few shots to those. Anything slightly short of the green would just land in the pile of plugs

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