Can a pro handle YOUR course/Playing conditions?

[MadMex 320]

As I was reading this post 

I started thinking of other things I have seen in or on courses that not many pro's could handle since they never seen them, for instance:

1) Like the posts said, bunkers with little sand, how about NO SAND or about 1/4 inch of sand then rock hard packed dirt

2) Waiting for the grounds keeper to stop cutting the green, and get off the green. Only to find out it's only half cut.

3) Round top Tee boxes

4) 18 different green speeds.

5) Crappy range balls

6) Driving range mats,

 

Am sure you have some,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,  

[Tsmithjr9 1,715]

A pro would go out and shoot in the low 60s at any 90% of our public courses, then be blown away griping about how poor conditions are vs. PGA courses.

 

The ones that they wouldn't are the group of insane ones with a slope north of 140. You know, the ones where someone will make the architects pay for what they've done to the land.

 

That's the issue IMO is that there is a total disconnect between public golf and USGA-PGA. The governing bodies don't even consider what life is like on an average quality public course.

 

Take Dead Aim

 

 

 

 

[MadMex 320]

8 hours ago, Tsmithjr9 said:

A pro would go out and shoot in the low 60s at any 90% of our public courses, then be blown away griping about how poor conditions are vs. PGA courses.

 

The ones that they wouldn't are the group of insane ones with a slope north of 140. You know, the ones where someone will make the architects pay for what they've done to the land.

 

That's the issue IMO is that there is a total disconnect between public golf and USGA-PGA. The governing bodies don't even consider what life is like on an average quality public course.

 

Take Dead Aim

 

 

 

 

They will shoot good scores, but I don’t think in the range many think, I think Europeans can since they play all those link courses,

[DaveP043 4,008]

A typical PGA Tour player would carry a handicap of about +6.  The average score for most players is 2 or 3 strokes higher than their handicap, so typical scores for a typical pro might be 3 or 4 strokes under the Course Rating.  At my home club, with a CR of 72.0, that would suggest that a typical pro might shoot 68 or 69 from my tees, a couple of strokes higher from the back.  That doesn't mean a pro couldn't go really low, but without specific course knowledge he's unlikely to really light it up.

[THEZIPR23 5,141]

Absolutely, they would eat it up. The reason they are the best players in the world is not because they hit from perfect lies, it is because they have EVERY shot in the bag. 

[dlow206 5,211]

A pro could probably play the round with a range ball and still tear it up out there on my course. And it is by no means an easy course, 71.9/132 from the blue tees.

[stuka44 96]

I believe a current tour pro (Koepka/Finau) in their prime would likely shoot 56-60.  Hemlock Springs Slope 129, Rating 72.8,(6800 from back tees) a public course I play,  the course record is held by Ben Curtis (shot 64).  Now I'm guessing that was  college kid Ben Curtis using circa 1995//1998 golf equipment, and ball.  But MadMex's  point is well taken on conditions.  I see most commenting on this are from warm  locales.  Here a pro is going to want to claim residual water everywhere as wet as some places are around here until mid/late May.

Edited August 25, 2020 by stuka44
addition

[Tsmithjr9 1,715]

I believe a current tour pro (Koepka/Finau) in their prime would likely shoot 56-60.  Hemlock Springs Slope 129, Rating 72.8,(6800 from back tees) a public course I play,  the course record is held by Ben Curtis (shot 64).  Now I'm guessing that was  college kid Ben Curtis using circa 1995//1998 golf equipment, and ball.  But MadMex's  point is well taken on conditions.  I see most commenting on this are from warm  locales.  Here a pro is going to want to claim residual water everywhere as wet as some places are around here until mid/late May.

I am NE Ohio as well. Even from the tips, our courses are 200-500 yards shorter than anything on tour. Regardless of conditions these guys are going to have wedges into everything, and reach all par 5s in 2. They are going low. The only courses that would mess with them is Boulder Creek which is 7400 yards from the tips (though I've never seen the black tees set that far back). And the aforementioned closed Thunder Hill which was 7500 + over 100 lakes on course. At one point it was on the 100 toughest in US list.

IMO the tour doesn't want any part of courses like that, artifically tricked up by an insane architect. I think that's why, in part, they have the TPC network, so everything can be controlled and protected. Recall, back in the 80s Tanglewood hosted PGA events, and that only lasted a few years.

Take Dead Aim

[Golfspy_CG2 25,121]

This has actually happened, several years ago.  This is a piece form the Washington Post I have posted a time or two when this topic comes up. Steve Marino is a local DMV guy who played on Tour for a few years.   He went out and played as public of mujni as there is in the area.   Here's what happened.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/01/AR2007070101221.html?sid=ST2009071701245

[StrokerAce 10,489]

27 minutes ago, Golfspy_CG2 said:

This has actually happened, several years ago.  This is a piece form the Washington Post I have posted a time or two when this topic comes up. Steve Marino is a local DMV guy who played on Tour for a few years.   He went out and played as public of mujni as there is in the area.   Here's what happened.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/01/AR2007070101221.html?sid=ST2009071701245

Cool story.... these sections stuck out for me:

The more I watched Marino play, the more convinced I became that golf, for us, involved little common ground. When I asked Marino about the obstacles I considered daunting on PGA Tour courses -- long holes, imposing water hazards, gigantic bunkers -- Marino said they never bothered him. Similarly, at East Potomac, Marino obsessed over details I had never noticed. Overgrown fairways made it impossible, he said, to generate substantial spin on iron shots. Stiff sand traps caused the ball to release on a flat trajectory, negating the importance of touch.

The greens bothered Marino most. After six months spent on greens that ran as fast as tiled kitchen floors, Marino now felt like he was putting along the bottom of a filled swimming pool. No matter how hard he hit it, the ball almost always slid through sand or water and grinded to a halt short of the hole. After Marino left two consecutive putts short on No. 11, he dropped his putter on the green.

"It's just kind of like you hit it and guess where it goes on this course," Marino said. "I don't think I'd ever shoot over par on a course like this, but I'm not sure I could ever go really low. On nice courses, you know when you hit a good shot that you're going to get rewarded for it. So if you're playing great, you score great. Here, you just never know."

[DaveP043 4,008]

30 minutes ago, Golfspy_CG2 said:

This has actually happened, several years ago.  This is a piece form the Washington Post I have posted a time or two when this topic comes up. Steve Marino is a local DMV guy who played on Tour for a few years.   He went out and played as public of mujni as there is in the area.   Here's what happened.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/01/AR2007070101221.html?sid=ST2009071701245

If I remember right, Marino came out of Fairfax CC.  I'm not surprised at his score, that's kind of what I had guessed up there.  

[revkev 22,156]

Isn't there a recent blog post about this? 

 

Actually guys on tour are better than the 6 that we have always assumed - plus 6 is mini tour type stuff - I've played a lot with them lately and I can tell you that they would shoot in the low 60's at about anything you'd throw at them very regularly.  I've watched one go back to back 63's on a local country club from the tips and the course rating there is 73.5.  They will generally shoot mid 60's at mine with a course rating of 74.4.  A lot would depend upon how many times they've played the track. 

 

I think you'll be stunned at how low the blog post suggests that Tour players would shoot on your course.  Check it out and you'll see but someone playing his best would be in the 50's a few times out of 20 on most munis.

[stuka44 96]

Yeah your're right!  Thunderhill where water was in play on EVERY shot, even putting it seemed like some days!  Yes, maybe before your time, even Web.com tour(Korn Ferry),  at Quail Hollow Devlin Course in 2001 ( par 72 at that time) just looked up.  Not to minimize it but Heath Slocum(never really heard of him) won that event, he did survive some years on PGA tour, up and down to web.com, played in 18 majors(1 top 10, and 1 top 25),  so obviously a top quality golfer,  Shot 8 under 64 round 1, and 6 under 66 round 2, total -21.  Now picture (Thomas, Speith, Johnson, Morikawa)  guys in their absolute prime teeing up on our local courses.  Yikes!  On a good putting day for them 20 under may be in order.

[StrokerAce 10,489]

....not to mention that there was a 59 and a 60 shot at TPC Norton on the same day last week. If guys can do that on courses set up for PGA tour conditions I cannot even imagine what they can do on public courses. 

[Golfspy_CG2 25,121]

17 minutes ago, GolfSpy Stroker said:

Cool story.... these sections stuck out for me:

The more I watched Marino play, the more convinced I became that golf, for us, involved little common ground. When I asked Marino about the obstacles I considered daunting on PGA Tour courses -- long holes, imposing water hazards, gigantic bunkers -- Marino said they never bothered him. Similarly, at East Potomac, Marino obsessed over details I had never noticed. Overgrown fairways made it impossible, he said, to generate substantial spin on iron shots. Stiff sand traps caused the ball to release on a flat trajectory, negating the importance of touch.

The greens bothered Marino most. After six months spent on greens that ran as fast as tiled kitchen floors, Marino now felt like he was putting along the bottom of a filled swimming pool. No matter how hard he hit it, the ball almost always slid through sand or water and grinded to a halt short of the hole. After Marino left two consecutive putts short on No. 11, he dropped his putter on the green.

"It's just kind of like you hit it and guess where it goes on this course," Marino said. "I don't think I'd ever shoot over par on a course like this, but I'm not sure I could ever go really low. On nice courses, you know when you hit a good shot that you're going to get rewarded for it. So if you're playing great, you score great. Here, you just never know."

Yep, the part about water hazards and bunkers is so true.  I"m guessing in 95% of the cases carrying a water hazard isn't even a thought for them.  For us, it's about can I do it, should I try, etc.   And bunkers, you hear it all the time, from the announcers talking about what a good break it was for them rolling into the bunker as opposed to the rough.  

14 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

If I remember right, Marino came out of Fairfax CC.  I'm not surprised at his score, that's kind of what I had guessed up there.  

You are correct, came out of Fairfax, CC.   I was following his group one year at TPC--not him specifically but a friend of mine was caddying in the group.  He had a large contingent of buddies from the club out following him.   

[Tsmithjr9 1,715]

You are correct, came out of Fairfax, CC.   I was following his group one year at TPC--not him specifically but a friend of mine was caddying in the group.  He had a large contingent of buddies from the club out following him.   

That's where the extra thick professionally made yardage books come in. I imagine that if it's off the tee, they know they can carry it without issue and if it's just left or right they know the miss and aim well away from hazards. Just don't even challenge it.

 

And the bunkers are so nice on tour they could care less about being in the sand. I've seen several interviews with pros saying how they prefer the sand to rough. Unless it's a fried egg they'll have a better lie and more control out of the bunker than the rough.

 

Take Dead Aim

 

 

 

[RickyBobby_PR 4,883]

Links at ivy ridge a course I play when I’m in buffalo area the course record was set by DJ.
 

 

[CarlH 4,584]

The typical pro is going to shoot well on any course they play, regardless of conditions.  The typical 10 handicap player, on the other hand, could probably not break 100 playing their course/tees.    

 

[DaveP043 4,008]

Its perfectly fair to look at the 59 and 60 shot last week, to look at the winner each week.  But we also have to look at PGA Tour Professionals who are slamming their trunk on Friday each weekend.  Those guys have included Speith, Day, DJ, Koepka all within pretty recent memory.  Guys missed the cut at the Northern Trust by 6 and 8 strokes, really fine experiences players!  Dustin shot 160 over 2 days at Muirfield about a month ago.  Those guys, playing at that level, are still likely to be under par at our day-to-day courses, but they're not going to shoot 61.  And has been said, without the practice rounds, without the detailed yardage books, the green-reading books, on shaggy fairways, slow bumpy greens, and bare bunkers, send 'em out there with a trolley and their wits, I just don't see a huge percentage of really low scores.

If you can get a couple of dozen players all playing well and put them on our courses, someone will light it up.  Take one random pro out of a 156-player PGA Tour field, its a whole lot less likely.

Edited August 25, 2020 by DaveP043

[revkev 22,156]

13 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Its perfectly fair to look at the 59 and 60 shot last week, to look at the winner each week.  But we also have to look at PGA Tour Professionals who are slamming their trunk on Friday each weekend.  Those guys have included Speith, Day, DJ, Koepka all within pretty recent memory.  Guys missed the cut at the Northern Trust by 6 and 8 strokes, really fine experiences players!  Dustin shot 160 over 2 days at Muirfield about a month ago.  Those guys, playing at that level, are still likely to be under par at our day-to-day courses, but they're not going to shoot 61.  And has been said, without the practice rounds, without the detailed yardage books, the green-reading books, on shaggy fairways, slow bumpy greens, and bare bunkers, send 'em out there with a trolley and their wits, I just don't see a huge percentage of really low scores.

If you can get a couple of dozen players all playing well and put them on our courses, someone will light it up.  Take one random pro out of a 156-player PGA Tour field, its a whole lot less likely.

I suppose this is true - when I reviewed the blog post it was top pros and what they might shoot on your course - the risk is (if we aren't wanting them to go low) that the "better the course" the better the conditions and the lower thy might shoot.  The worse the conditions the more likely the course is to be shorter and thus the more wedges, the more balls hit close - the lower the scores.  I enjoyed the Marino article but consider how much longer the guys are hitting the ball today than they were in 2007 -  13 years ago -

 

Brittany Lincecome was a member at my course, she always played from the tips - 7,200, course rating of 74.4 - she often shot in the 60's from there - often.