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A side note, but it’s interesting to me evidently none of the mega stars of golf have broken 60 in a tour event - Woods, Nicklaus, Palmer, Snead, Jones, etc. Not to slight those who have, there are some stars, but they’re not the mega stars. And Furyk is the only 58, along with a 59. https://www.liveabout.com/all-time-best-18-hole-score-1565892#:~:text=The Lowest Round in PGA Tour History The,Travelers Championship at TPC River Highlands in Connecticut.

Depends largely on the course too obviously, e.g. the lowest round ever at The Masters and the US Open is still 63.

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This has actually happened, several years ago.  This is a piece form the Washington Post I have posted a time or two when this topic comes up. Steve Marino is a local DMV guy who played on Tour for a

Cool story.... these sections stuck out for me: The more I watched Marino play, the more convinced I became that golf, for us, involved little common ground. When I asked Marino about the obstacl

A pro would go out and shoot in the low 60s at any 90% of our public courses, then be blown away griping about how poor conditions are vs. PGA courses.   The ones that they wouldn't are the group of

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6 minutes ago, revkev said:

I suppose this is true - when I reviewed the blog post it was top pros and what they might shoot on your course - the risk is (if we aren't wanting them to go low) that the "better the course" the better the conditions and the lower thy might shoot.  The worse the conditions the more likely the course is to be shorter and thus the more wedges, the more balls hit close - the lower the scores.  I enjoyed the Marino article but consider how much longer the guys are hitting the ball today than they were in 2007 -  13 years ago -

 

Brittany Lincecome was a member at my course, she always played from the tips - 7,200, course rating of 74.4 - she often shot in the 60's from there - often. 

I think a lot of this discussion hinges on how the "event" is set up.  Is it a top pro, playing in a stretch of his best golf, or is it a random Tour Pro (still an exceptional player to be on the tour) taken at a random time?  Does the pro get a few practice rounds, and a caddie, or is he seeing the course for the first time, and figuring it all out on his own?  Is the course in excellent shape (for a "normal course"), or is it the way we'd see it every other day of the year?

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8 hours ago, Golfspy_CG2 said:

This has actually happened, several years ago.  This is a piece form the Washington Post I have posted a time or two when this topic comes up. Steve Marino is a local DMV guy who played on Tour for a few years.   He went out and played as public of mujni as there is in the area.   Here's what happened.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/01/AR2007070101221.html?sid=ST2009071701245

That is an awesome article. 

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17 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

I think a lot of this discussion hinges on how the "event" is set up.  Is it a top pro, playing in a stretch of his best golf, or is it a random Tour Pro (still an exceptional player to be on the tour) taken at a random time?  Does the pro get a few practice rounds, and a caddie, or is he seeing the course for the first time, and figuring it all out on his own?  Is the course in excellent shape (for a "normal course"), or is it the way we'd see it every other day of the year?

Completely agree - the guys playing here are not top touring pro status but most of us would be very hard pressed to tell the difference between a Korn Ferry guy or PGA tour guy on the range.  I suspect it's that way in casual rounds as well - the differences surface when they are between the ropes and particularly when they are between the ropes without their A games. 

 

The guys or LPGA gals that show up to play that Friday game know the course.  They've grown up in St. Pete or lived here and played it numerous times.  They aren't showing up in the summer because they are out on tour and that's when the course might be in an odd condition - inconsistent bunkers because of the rain, greens aerated or not mowed as frequently or as short to protect them from the sun - in the winter when they are around scoring is ideal, traps are still inconsistent, because it is a muni and they aren't often raked properly, but less so, greens aren't fast but they are fast enough and pretty smooth, other than going at par 5's in 2 or the par 3's they are going to have wedge into all the greens and since there is no rough to speak of that time of year there's nothing particularly tight.  Anyone playing the game for a living is playing a par 65 - there are at least 3 drivable par 4's for about all of them, including Brittany, under the right conditions.  And this course has a rating of 71.3 from the tips - nothing special but not a cake walk for a guy with a handicap, either. 

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Agree with Dave P depends on parameters your putting on it.   I'm talking prime tour players right now (Johnson, Koepka, Morikawa, Fleetwood), what would they shoot on my local course, from my tees,  around 6000 yards, not the tips on some almost championship course with undulating greens.  Lets give that foursome a couple practice rounds, and a day like they get (pre-tournament) to go out and roll putts on all the greens, knowing where the pin placements are going to be. Blackbrook CC (par 71) near me, city owned, decent conditions, but all in all flat greens, If one of those guys playing four rounds like it was a tournament didn't shoot sub 55  I would be very surprised.  Not only are they going to have a wedge into EVERY GREEN, on all but 2 par 4's they'll have much less than 50 yards to the pins if they don't drive most of them, I'm assuming (only a)  310-20 yard drive, and on the other 2 maybe 80 yards,  maybe 150-190  yards to pin on all 3 par 5's.  As noted the sub 60 scores noted above are 11, 12, or 13 under on Championship courses, with fast undulating greens .  I don't think 3 eagles on the driveable 4's  , and reachable 5's, and 10-12 other birdies for 55-53 is out of the question. 

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26 minutes ago, stuka44 said:

Agree with Dave P depends on parameters your putting on it.   I'm talking prime tour players right now (Johnson, Koepka, Morikawa, Fleetwood), what would they shoot on my local course, from my tees,  around 6000 yards, not the tips on some almost championship course with undulating greens.  Lets give that foursome a couple practice rounds, and a day like they get (pre-tournament) to go out and roll putts on all the greens, knowing where the pin placements are going to be. Blackbrook CC (par 71) near me, city owned, decent conditions, but all in all flat greens, If one of those guys playing four rounds like it was a tournament didn't shoot sub 55  I would be very surprised.  Not only are they going to have a wedge into EVERY GREEN, on all but 2 par 4's they'll have much less than 50 yards to the pins if they don't drive most of them, I'm assuming (only a)  310-20 yard drive, and on the other 2 maybe 80 yards,  maybe 150-190  yards to pin on all 3 par 5's.  As noted the sub 60 scores noted above are 11, 12, or 13 under on Championship courses, with fast undulating greens .  I don't think 3 eagles on the driveable 4's  , and reachable 5's, and 10-12 other birdies for 55-53 is out of the question. 

You might want to review PGA Tour statistics.  There are 3 par-5 holes, nominally 460 yards.  The typical pro will average just about 4 strokes on those, based on 2019 stats.  8 "longer" par4 holes, tour average 3.6.  3 "shorter" par 4s, average 3.4.  4 par-3 holes, average 2.9.  That all adds up to about a 65, 6 under par, 5 under the course rating.  Maybe lighter rough and flat greens will lower scores, maybe bumpier greens and fuzzy fairways (by Tour standards) will raise scores a bit.  Remember the Marino article, one of his biggest problems was adjusting to "public golf greens".  And like in every 4-day event, you'll see a few better rounds, and a few worse ones.  I can see someone threatening 60 if given a few tries, I can certainly see someone shooting 70+.   But for someone to go 10 strokes better than "average", I just don't see it happening.

We talk about sub-60 scores on tournament courses, how many of those have actually happened?  5 or 6, in all of recorded time?  We talk about prime tour players, are you counting the same Johnson who shot 80-80 about 6 weeks ago?  Which one are you going to get when he comes to your course?

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1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

You might want to review PGA Tour statistics.  There are 3 par-5 holes, nominally 460 yards.  The typical pro will average just about 4 strokes on those, based on 2019 stats.  8 "longer" par4 holes, tour average 3.6.  3 "shorter" par 4s, average 3.4.  4 par-3 holes, average 2.9.  That all adds up to about a 65, 6 under par, 5 under the course rating.  Maybe lighter rough and flat greens will lower scores, maybe bumpier greens and fuzzy fairways (by Tour standards) will raise scores a bit.  Remember the Marino article, one of his biggest problems was adjusting to "public golf greens".  And like in every 4-day event, you'll see a few better rounds, and a few worse ones.  I can see someone threatening 60 if given a few tries, I can certainly see someone shooting 70+.   But for someone to go 10 strokes better than "average", I just don't see it happening.

We talk about sub-60 scores on tournament courses, how many of those have actually happened?  5 or 6, in all of recorded time?  We talk about prime tour players, are you counting the same Johnson who shot 80-80 about 6 weeks ago?  Which one are you going to get when he comes to your course?

This is a fun discussion - my contention would be that even the 80-80 guy would have little trouble shooting in the low 60's if he where familiar with most muni's set up the way that we are accustomed.  Pins aren't going to be hidden, he's going to hit wedge, after wedge, after wedge and there will be no pressure.  Any attempt at giving him a traditional handicap falls short because it's difficult to determine the course rating of the typical PGA tour course - I've read 77 or so.

 

By all accounts Marino just showed up and was not familiar with the course.  Plus it's a one shot deal in his case - what if he were the high man in a field of 150?  We can't know but what if.  Maybe my view was tainted by playing those rounds with the mini-tour guys this Spring.  They could shoot 67 on most muni's in their sleep and low 60's would always be a possibility.  They aren't playing on the PGA tour nor are the likely to. 

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This is a fun discussion - my contention would be that even the 80-80 guy would have little trouble shooting in the low 60's if he where familiar with most muni's set up the way that we are accustomed.  Pins aren't going to be hidden, he's going to hit wedge, after wedge, after wedge and there will be no pressure.  Any attempt at giving him a traditional handicap falls short because it's difficult to determine the course rating of the typical PGA tour course - I've read 77 or so.
 
By all accounts Marino just showed up and was not familiar with the course.  Plus it's a one shot deal in his case - what if he were the high man in a field of 150?  We can't know but what if.  Maybe my view was tainted by playing those rounds with the mini-tour guys this Spring.  They could shoot 67 on most muni's in their sleep and low 60's would always be a possibility.  They aren't playing on the PGA tour nor are the likely to. 
This is a much more eloquent take on the point I was trying to make. I agree pros would break par without breaking a sweat. Compared to us working to break 80 from the same tees, that is absolutely tearing it up. And if they have the AAA game on they could go super low.

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Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree again, that''s OK, that's what makes this fun.   Again I am saying give them practice rounds, and another day to just putt and get used to the speed of the greens on Blackbrook.  Given a 300 yard drive on the course I mentioned(6000 yards) 1 par 4 is driveable, 7 approaches with be from less than 70 yards, then 88, 98, and 136.  He will have 159, 164, and 160 into the par 5's for his second shot, and the par 3's are the biggest challenge 171, 154, 185, 159.   As mentioned previously, I am talking a course with no false fronts, very few holes have sand, and if it is its not fronting the green.  Greens are very flat, only a few  have only the slightest of what could be called tiers  and very little substantial undulation, some uphill and downhill, but nothing like the mogul skiing bumps you see on some courses.  I can picture with practice and let a real good foursome of current, playing well right now top tour pros out there, and somebody is breaking 60.

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I think abnormal course conditions/poor maintenance would throw anyone off, including pros.

My course is normally pretty pristine in terms of condition. However there have been a few abnormal days:

  • So wet and so much water on the course that the holes were halfway filled with water. The greens were basically un-puttable. I actually stopped putting at all after a couple holes
  • Piles of aeration plugs sitting around the greens. I lost a few shots to those. Anything slightly short of the green would just land in the pile of plugs

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Of course anyone would struggle on a course that is undergoing maintenance.  Pros aren't playing their courses under abnormal conditions though either.  In fact the entire year centers around getting the course just so for that week.  More than likely there is a time that any of our courses are being geared toward - the club championship, the member guest, it's just nowhere near as extreme. 

In fact this is a pretty common complaint from those courses that host tour events, they loose their course much of the year. I think that's why we have seen the move away from Country Clubs and towards TPC and resort type courses for tour events.  People who pay 10, 20, 25K plus per year to be a club member don't want to give the course up for what is necessary to get it ready to host a PGA tour event and then deal with the aftermath of getting back to regular playing shape.  If you live up north you could loose much of your season to that. 

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27 minutes ago, stuka44 said:

Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree again, that''s OK, that's what makes this fun.   Again I am saying give them practice rounds, and another day to just putt and get used to the speed of the greens on Blackbrook.  Given a 300 yard drive on the course I mentioned(6000 yards) 1 par 4 is driveable, 7 approaches with be from less than 70 yards, then 88, 98, and 136.  He will have 159, 164, and 160 into the par 5's for his second shot, and the par 3's are the biggest challenge 171, 154, 185, 159.   As mentioned previously, I am talking a course with no false fronts, very few holes have sand, and if it is its not fronting the green.  Greens are very flat, only a few  have only the slightest of what could be called tiers  and very little substantial undulation, some uphill and downhill, but nothing like the mogul skiing bumps you see on some courses.  I can picture with practice and let a real good foursome of current, playing well right now top tour pros out there, and somebody is breaking 60.

How close do you expect a player to get from those 50 to 75 yard shots?  Would you be surprised to see a Tour pro average 15 feet from that range?  And from that range, a pro will typically make 1 putt in 4 tries, on perfectly smooth greens that he knows.  For the driveable par 4, he might hit that green 1 time in 3 tries.   And you've assumed that the pros will absolutely never make a mistake, never miss a fairway, never hit a bunker.  They're good, amazingly good, just not THAT good.

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56 minutes ago, stuka44 said:

Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree again, that''s OK, that's what makes this fun.   Again I am saying give them practice rounds, and another day to just putt and get used to the speed of the greens on Blackbrook.  Given a 300 yard drive on the course I mentioned(6000 yards) 1 par 4 is driveable, 7 approaches with be from less than 70 yards, then 88, 98, and 136.  He will have 159, 164, and 160 into the par 5's for his second shot, and the par 3's are the biggest challenge 171, 154, 185, 159.   As mentioned previously, I am talking a course with no false fronts, very few holes have sand, and if it is its not fronting the green.  Greens are very flat, only a few  have only the slightest of what could be called tiers  and very little substantial undulation, some uphill and downhill, but nothing like the mogul skiing bumps you see on some courses.  I can picture with practice and let a real good foursome of current, playing well right now top tour pros out there, and somebody is breaking 60.

Take a look at some of Lou Stagner's work or even just overall strokes gained and you will see that yes it is possible for them to shoot 60 but it is not going to be the normal. 

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I get it I looked at a lot of the numbers.  I'm not trying to say everyone who ever teed the ball up on the PGA tour for a single event is going to go out and shoot 57. While it might not be the norm, I don't think it will be as difficult as you think for them to shoot regularly under 65 and much lower.  A pro, or pro's presently  at the top of there game, that's what I referenced, not some 200 ranked journeyman.  To think that Dustin Johnson who at the Northern Trust 7200 yards shot 67(-4), 60(-11), 64(-7), and 63(-8), given time to practice, and familiarize himself with the course and the speed, would struggle to shoot substantially better scores on a 6000 yard, no sand, no blind shots, no doglegs, no elevation change to speak of local course, is selling their ability way short.  And I'm not talking some goat path with bushes in the middle of the fairway.  Its a decently maintained local course that just isn't fancy, fairways are well maintained, there is not much rough to speak of, and the greens aren't fast, but they roll smooth, and by pro standards would be considered very flat.

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On 8/23/2020 at 8:08 PM, MadMex said:

As I was reading this post 

I started thinking of other things I have seen in or on courses that not many pro's could handle since they never seen them, for instance:

1) Like the posts said, bunkers with little sand, how about NO SAND or about 1/4 inch of sand then rock hard packed dirt

2) Waiting for the grounds keeper to stop cutting the green, and get off the green. Only to find out it's only half cut.

3) Round top Tee boxes

4) 18 different green speeds.

5) Crappy range balls

6) Driving range mats,

 

Am sure you have some,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,  

I don't know how well any pro can hit out off the bunkers on our course, as they don,t have too much sand.

It is one of the funniest things to me that most courses I ever play, the sand traps are a mix of very little sand and a lot of clay materials, if feels like hitting from the cart path.

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21 minutes ago, stuka44 said:

I get it I looked at a lot of the numbers.  I'm not trying to say everyone who ever teed the ball up on the PGA tour for a single event is going to go out and shoot 57. While it might not be the norm, I don't think it will be as difficult as you think for them to shoot regularly under 65 and much lower.  A pro, or pro's presently  at the top of there game, that's what I referenced, not some 200 ranked journeyman.  To think that Dustin Johnson who at the Northern Trust 7200 yards shot 67(-4), 60(-11), 64(-7), and 63(-8), given time to practice, and familiarize himself with the course and the speed, would struggle to shoot substantially better scores on a 6000 yard, no sand, no blind shots, no doglegs, no elevation change to speak of local course, is selling their ability way short.  And I'm not talking some goat path with bushes in the middle of the fairway.  Its a decently maintained local course that just isn't fancy, fairways are well maintained, there is not much rough to speak of, and the greens aren't fast, but they roll smooth, and by pro standards would be considered very flat.

Sure, if you take the world number 1, playing at his absolute best ever, you're right.  But you might also get the world #1 playing like crap (for him).  You never know when a player is going to play at his best, that's why they actually play tournaments.  That same DJ who was -30 at the Northern Trust shot 80-80 a few weeks back.  Tony Finau, #15 in the world, missed the cut this past week.  Shane Lowery (#28), Sunjai Im (#24), Patrick Cantlay (#12), Gary Woodland (#22), Bryson (#8), Colin Morikawa (#5, didn't you mention him earlier?), every one of those top 30 players missed the cut.  Those aren't "some 200 ranked journeymen".  You just don't know what level of play you'll get from anyone, even the world's best.  

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I don't know how well any pro can hit out off the bunkers on our course, as they don,t have too much sand.
It is one of the funniest things to me that most courses I ever play, the sand traps are a mix of very little sand and a lot of clay materials, if feels like hitting from the cart path.
I keep saying 90% of munis should just ditch bunkers. They just don't have the money to maintain them properly. Only keep them if the bunker is located where it could stop a lost ball, like if there's a fall off next to a green or in front of a pond.

Take Dead Aim

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After reading a few of these comments, I've decided that I don't want to play some of the courses you guys are playing 😄 😄  Even our worst kept muni is in better shape than the courses some of you are describing!  😄 

Driver: :ping-small: G400 Max 9 degree Alta CB55 Stiff shaft 

Hybrids: :taylormade-small: M6 --- 3 (19 degrees), 4 (22 degrees), and 5 (25 degrees) Atmos shaft R

Irons: :callaway-small:Apex CF19 6-9, PW, AW KBS Tour Graphite  70g shafts R

Wedges:  :cleveland-small: CBX-2 52*, 56*, 60* wedges.  Stock shafts.

Putter: :odyssey-small: Stroke Lab 7S

Ball: :Snell: MTB-X

My Photography can be seen at Smugmug

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4 hours ago, CarlH said:

After reading a few of these comments, I've decided that I don't want to play some of the courses you guys are playing 😄 😄  Even our worst kept muni is in better shape than the courses some of you are describing!  😄 

To be honest, most of the courses we play at are in a great shape, however bunkers are a completely different story. 

 

2020 Bag Boy Chiller Cart Bag Official tester

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Unofficial - Cobra SpeedZone Xtreme

Unofficial Review - Honma TR21 4 Wood by xOldBenKenobiX

 

Drivers :titelist-small:  - TS2 10.5*, :cobra-small: Cobra SpeedZone Xtreme 10.5, UST helium 5

Woods :titelist-small: TS2 3HL. :honma:TR21 4 Wood, Vizard 20-60 shaft.

Hybrid   :titelist-small:  - T-MB 716 3 Iron, Hybrid   :titelist-small:  - T-MB 718 4 Iron, Irons:   :titelist-small:  - AP1 714 5 to PW, Wedges  

:vokey-small: SM4 48*, Oil Can 52*, SM5 56* and SM6 58*, Putter   :titelist-small: Deadcenter SP-209, Ball   :titelist-small:  ProV1, :Arccos: Smart Sensors

Shoes:a couple :footjoy-small: A couple of:nike-small: A couple of Adidas ,   Yeah I have a shoe addiction.

Right Handed, Southeast Michigan

Honk If you see these plates around. 

20200728_121856.jpg.9cf8a7d26ca1096e8d390a8c2f59b6c2.jpg

I'm always driving around Michigan. 

The Ohio and Pennsylvania's turnpike as well as around Baltimore, Maryland. 

Grip it and rip it my friends. 

 

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4 hours ago, Tsmithjr9 said:

I keep saying 90% of munis should just ditch bunkers. They just don't have the money to maintain them properly. Only keep them if the bunker is located where it could stop a lost ball, like if there's a fall off next to a green or in front of a pond.

Take Dead Aim
 

That is the main issue, it takes a lot of time to properly maintain a healthy bunker. 

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2020 Bag Boy Chiller Cart Bag Official tester

MGS Hard Rock Challenge

100 swings challenge

MGS Fantasy football league

Unofficial - Cobra SpeedZone Xtreme

Unofficial Review - Honma TR21 4 Wood by xOldBenKenobiX

 

Drivers :titelist-small:  - TS2 10.5*, :cobra-small: Cobra SpeedZone Xtreme 10.5, UST helium 5

Woods :titelist-small: TS2 3HL. :honma:TR21 4 Wood, Vizard 20-60 shaft.

Hybrid   :titelist-small:  - T-MB 716 3 Iron, Hybrid   :titelist-small:  - T-MB 718 4 Iron, Irons:   :titelist-small:  - AP1 714 5 to PW, Wedges  

:vokey-small: SM4 48*, Oil Can 52*, SM5 56* and SM6 58*, Putter   :titelist-small: Deadcenter SP-209, Ball   :titelist-small:  ProV1, :Arccos: Smart Sensors

Shoes:a couple :footjoy-small: A couple of:nike-small: A couple of Adidas ,   Yeah I have a shoe addiction.

Right Handed, Southeast Michigan

Honk If you see these plates around. 

20200728_121856.jpg.9cf8a7d26ca1096e8d390a8c2f59b6c2.jpg

I'm always driving around Michigan. 

The Ohio and Pennsylvania's turnpike as well as around Baltimore, Maryland. 

Grip it and rip it my friends. 

 

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