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12 minutes ago, xOldBenKenobiX said:

That is the main issue, it takes a lot of time to properly maintain a healthy bunker. 

Most of the bunkers are so firm where I play that when finally get in one I can play a real bunker shot in I am lost, I have forgotten what to do with that much sand.

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This has actually happened, several years ago.  This is a piece form the Washington Post I have posted a time or two when this topic comes up. Steve Marino is a local DMV guy who played on Tour for a

Cool story.... these sections stuck out for me: The more I watched Marino play, the more convinced I became that golf, for us, involved little common ground. When I asked Marino about the obstacl

A pro would go out and shoot in the low 60s at any 90% of our public courses, then be blown away griping about how poor conditions are vs. PGA courses.   The ones that they wouldn't are the group of

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4 minutes ago, ejgaudette said:

Most of the bunkers are so firm where I play that when finally get in one I can play a real bunker shot in I am lost, I have forgotten what to do with that much sand.

I don't think I've ever stepped in a proper bunker.

I would love to play on those deep, full of beautiful white sand I've only see in TV. 

I see how much Patrick Reed enjoys building sand castles on them. 

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37 minutes ago, xOldBenKenobiX said:

I don't think I've ever stepped in a proper bunker.

I would love to play on those deep, full of beautiful white sand I've only see in TV. 

I see how much Patrick Reed enjoys building sand castles on them. 

Patrick Reed wasn't in a proper bunker.  He was in a waste area.

I've played some very nice courses with beautiful sand.  I found out that just because bunkers are full of beautiful white sand doesn't mean they are easier to hit out of if you don't know how.

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I played with a guy who played on a college team....they play a different game.....they blow our courses away. He was a great guy...it was fun to watch.  I will NEVER have game like that.

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In a one-man, one-round scenario like the Marino article (great read, BTW), who knows what you'll get.  It could be anything.  Any number of things could happen.  What would be interesting is to have 150 of them play the course for the first time.  If you get enough of them together, you'll certainly see some eye-poppingly low scores.  And it may not be from world #1.  They're all great players.  Who knows who will really be feeling it on any given day?  A few of them would be.  And a few would also play like crap.  Any given day.

Another interesting thought experiment would be to take world #1 and give him 10 rounds.  Would he tear the place apart a few times?  Certainly.  Especially once he's seen the course a few times.  But he'd still play a few crappy rounds because... golf.

But in the end, I'd bet that you could predict the scoring pretty well based on handicap and course rating, if you have a large enough sample size that the data starts to normalize.

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Well said HardcoreLooper, that's what I've been trying to imply, you just expressed  it more clearly.  Any one day, any one round who knows.  But on a day when  top pros  shoot 63,64 on a 7200 yard course, and all of the things that make that course much more difficult than ours ,  I don't think its unreasonable to think he may be able to go a lot lower on one of our local courses from 6000 yards, with some practice/multiple rounds to get used to it.  I know there is a realistic limit as to how low a pro could go, because they would only have so many holes to score, birdies, and eagles on. 

How much better could any of us do on a good day, playing a course we know, from 1200 yards shorter, once we had a few practice rounds to adjust what clubs we were going to hit .  On a good day I would like to think we, given our respective abilities could do 4-5 strokes better.  So I'm thinking if we can do it,  even in light of the realistic limit mentioned above, I'm pretty sure top touring pro's could do it, maybe not regularly(because as pointed out any given day a top pro may play like crap), but I don't think it would be as infrequently as some think. 

 

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22 hours ago, stuka44 said:

Agree with Dave P depends on parameters your putting on it.   I'm talking prime tour players right now (Johnson, Koepka, Morikawa, Fleetwood), what would they shoot on my local course, from my tees,  around 6000 yards, not the tips on some almost championship course with undulating greens.  Lets give that foursome a couple practice rounds, and a day like they get (pre-tournament) to go out and roll putts on all the greens, knowing where the pin placements are going to be. Blackbrook CC (par 71) near me, city owned, decent conditions, but all in all flat greens, If one of those guys playing four rounds like it was a tournament didn't shoot sub 55  I would be very surprised.  Not only are they going to have a wedge into EVERY GREEN, on all but 2 par 4's they'll have much less than 50 yards to the pins if they don't drive most of them, I'm assuming (only a)  310-20 yard drive, and on the other 2 maybe 80 yards,  maybe 150-190  yards to pin on all 3 par 5's.  As noted the sub 60 scores noted above are 11, 12, or 13 under on Championship courses, with fast undulating greens .  I don't think 3 eagles on the driveable 4's  , and reachable 5's, and 10-12 other birdies for 55-53 is out of the question. 

 

3 hours ago, stuka44 said:

Well said HardcoreLooper, that's what I've been trying to imply, you just expressed  it more clearly.  Any one day, any one round who knows.  But on a day when  top pros  shoot 63,64 on a 7200 yard course, and all of the things that make that course much more difficult than ours ,  I don't think its unreasonable to think he may be able to go a lot lower on one of our local courses from 6000 yards, with some practice/multiple rounds to get used to it.  I know there is a realistic limit as to how low a pro could go, because they would only have so many holes to score, birdies, and eagles on. 

How much better could any of us do on a good day, playing a course we know, from 1200 yards shorter, once we had a few practice rounds to adjust what clubs we were going to hit .  On a good day I would like to think we, given our respective abilities could do 4-5 strokes better.  So I'm thinking if we can do it,  even in light of the realistic limit mentioned above, I'm pretty sure top touring pro's could do it, maybe not regularly(because as pointed out any given day a top pro may play like crap), but I don't think it would be as infrequently as some think.  

It has been said many times, the number of rounds we're talking about would be a prime factor in how low the lowest scores would be.  When you talked about four players for four rounds, I'd be absolutely stunned if someone shot 55.  Four players, for one round only, I'd be pretty amazed if there was a score under 60.  Full field (100+ players), four rounds, I'd expect one or two scores in the 50s, but still be surprised if anyone got close to 55.

You keep talking about fast undulating greens.  Fast greens are easier to putt, because fast greens are almost always more true.  For a player who is always on fast greens, the speed isn't really a problem until it gets "crazy fast".  Put that player on what we think are moderate greens, they'll find them extremely slow, AND bumpy (by tour standards).  They MAY be able to adapt to green speeds, but they won't be able to conquer the bumpiness.  They'll make fewer putts (based on distance to the hole) than they would from the same distance on Tour (true and fast) greens.

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I don't know not being a tour pro, I'm not going to speak for what I believe they would or wouldn't  find easy or not easy.  I think you attribute too much to the course conditions which they play under as contributing significantly to their ability to shoot well under par not infrequently. 

 I tend to believe it is because of the almost unfailing pure nature they strike shot after shot after shot, and when they ask if they need to carry the ball 100 or 99 yards, its because they really  mean it.  

I'd like to believe that its because of the courses I play that I don't make 96 % of putts under 5 feet, and 68 % from 4-8 feet or that I don't make pure contact more because of the poor condition of the fairway my ball is sitting on, but its not.  Its because even though by weekend hacker standards I'm a decent golfer, by touring pro standards I stink on ice.  I don't make that percentage of putts because everything about my putting(lack of practice included) stinks, compared to theirs.  And I don't have more of those crisp contact shots, not because of the lies I get, its because my swing is a train wreck compared to touring pros.  I'm ok realizing that they are that much better than I am, and that it would be even more evident as they destroyed a course I play, and show me just how bad I actually am.  

And I'm not sure its a universal truth that fast greens are easier to put.  I once shot 85, and had 42 putts.  I think fast greens stink!

 

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I had a lesson yesterday, and while just talking I asked my pro about this. (He's a PGA sectional champ a few times, played some Nike events, but never made the cut, now a senior.) He expected the limiting factor in shooting birdies would be fairway height. The super low height on the Tour produces crisper contact, and noticeably better distance control. At the standard fairway heights of our area, he felt that their proximity to the hole with wedges and short irons would double. That limits the number of makeable putts.

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21 hours ago, CarlH said:

After reading a few of these comments, I've decided that I don't want to play some of the courses you guys are playing 😄 😄  Even our worst kept muni is in better shape than the courses some of you are describing!  😄 

I definitely have to get some pictures of the track I play....The condition is about what you'd expect for the price....$200 for two years membership all the rounds are free if you walk after 11am, carts cost extra..    It's fine for what I can do right now which is walk 9 about 1/week late evening Sat or Sun.  Some fairways have large areas that are black and crispy, mud traps rather than sand traps, some greens have more exposed sand than the traps.  Its like walking around a driving range...a really bad driving range.    🥴  I knew going in what it was and I know I got my $200 worth already so if they go under I won't feel I lost any money.

I would love to just see the look on the pro's faces when they get to their drive in the middle of the "fairway" and there's nothing but black curly dried out fungus. 😆

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I give up! Everyone has worn me down on this.  So guys who've won major championships, had top 5's, 10's and 25's , spent years playing the most difficult courses in the world will be thrown completely off their game by a little extra grass under their ball on the fairway, and they will be unable to roll a 7 foot putt straight anymore because the green is an 8 or 9 and not a 12 on the stimp, or whatever they normally are, and will only if I'm understanding all this correctly only every once in a great while, to rarely ever, and they will struggle mightily to do it,    be able to shoot 4-6 strokes better than the 64 or 63 they shoot on a par 70 championship course, at my local course. 

And don't forget that all of the stats that are being quoted, about how many 10-15 foot putts, they make proximity and all of it, are stats  accumulated from playing those same absurdly hard (to me), I'm going to shoot 120, I'll be lucky to reach the short grass off the tee, it'll take me three shots each to clear the numerous cavernous bunkers, I'm going to roll any number of 10 footers that I miss 12 feet past the hole, I got to likely hit driver off the tee on  2 of the 4 par 3's, if I play from the back tees, Championship Courses regularly laid out at OVER 7000 yards.  To think they wouldn't be drastically and  substantially better  in every statistical category referred to here on a course whose ease would be laughable (even absent the perfect conditions their used to)  is mind boggling.  

Maybe you all are right, maybe the 60 yard average approach shot to the 11 par 4's, with no sand,  almost  perfectly flat, no tiers or false front for their wedge shot to roll off of, balls going to hit and stop where they hit it greens, might be too much for them to handle.  WOW!! 

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6 minutes ago, stuka44 said:

I give up! Everyone has worn me down on this.  So guys who've won major championships, had top 5's, 10's and 25's , spent years playing the most difficult courses in the world will be thrown completely off their game by a little extra grass under their ball on the fairway, and they will be unable to roll a 7 foot putt straight anymore because the green is an 8 or 9 and not a 12 on the stimp, or whatever they normally are, and will only if I'm understanding all this correctly only every once in a great while, to rarely ever, and they will struggle mightily to do it,    be able to shoot 4-6 strokes better than the 64 or 63 they shoot on a par 70 championship course, at my local course. 

And don't forget that all of the stats that are being quoted, about how many 10-15 foot putts, they make proximity and all of it, are stats  accumulated from playing those same absurdly hard (to me), I'm going to shoot 120, I'll be lucky to reach the short grass off the tee, it'll take me three shots each to clear the numerous cavernous bunkers, I'm going to roll any number of 10 footers that I miss 12 feet past the hole, I got to likely hit driver off the tee on  2 of the 4 par 3's, if I play from the back tees, Championship Courses regularly laid out at OVER 7000 yards.  To think they wouldn't be drastically and  substantially better  in every statistical category referred to here on a course whose ease would be laughable (even absent the perfect conditions their used to)  is mind boggling.  

Maybe you all are right, maybe the 60 yard average approach shot to the 11 par 4's, with no sand,  almost  perfectly flat, no tiers or false front for their wedge shot to roll off of, balls going to hit and stop where they hit it greens, might be too much for them to handle.  WOW!! 

I don't think anyone's right or wrong, we have an example in the article.  Outside of that, we are all just giving our opinions.  All the opinions are based on what each person has seen, feels or just plain guesstimating.   Nothing wrong with you saying you think they would do it more often than others are saying.   You could be correct, they could be correct.  

It's all discussion, and has been some good thoughts on both sides.  It's one of the fun things to talk about and has been a good conversation. 

 

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56 minutes ago, stuka44 said:

I give up! Everyone has worn me down on this.  So guys who've won major championships, had top 5's, 10's and 25's , spent years playing the most difficult courses in the world will be thrown completely off their game by a little extra grass under their ball on the fairway, and they will be unable to roll a 7 foot putt straight anymore because the green is an 8 or 9 and not a 12 on the stimp, or whatever they normally are, and will only if I'm understanding all this correctly only every once in a great while, to rarely ever, and they will struggle mightily to do it,    be able to shoot 4-6 strokes better than the 64 or 63 they shoot on a par 70 championship course, at my local course. 

And don't forget that all of the stats that are being quoted, about how many 10-15 foot putts, they make proximity and all of it, are stats  accumulated from playing those same absurdly hard (to me), I'm going to shoot 120, I'll be lucky to reach the short grass off the tee, it'll take me three shots each to clear the numerous cavernous bunkers, I'm going to roll any number of 10 footers that I miss 12 feet past the hole, I got to likely hit driver off the tee on  2 of the 4 par 3's, if I play from the back tees, Championship Courses regularly laid out at OVER 7000 yards.  To think they wouldn't be drastically and  substantially better  in every statistical category referred to here on a course whose ease would be laughable (even absent the perfect conditions their used to)  is mind boggling.  

Maybe you all are right, maybe the 60 yard average approach shot to the 11 par 4's, with no sand,  almost  perfectly flat, no tiers or false front for their wedge shot to roll off of, balls going to hit and stop where they hit it greens, might be too much for them to handle.  WOW!! 

My objections have always been about the "ease" with which you think these guys go low.  In a previous post, you said:

"Lets give that foursome (Johnson, Koepka, Morikawa, Fleetwood) a couple practice rounds, and a day like they get (pre-tournament) to go out and roll putts on all the greens, knowing where the pin placements are going to be. Blackbrook CC (par 71) near me, city owned, decent conditions, but all in all flat greens, If one of those guys playing four rounds like it was a tournament didn't shoot sub 55  I would be very surprised."

You're saying that at least one round of the 16 (4 players, 4 rounds) would be under 55.  Go back and check how often any of those guys shoots 65 or better.  Just one example, Morikawa has exactly 8 rounds of 65 or better in 72 rounds this year.  As a group, your handpicked foursome has a total of 19 scores of 65 or better in 198 tournament rounds this year.  And you're thinking that one of them will shoot 55, ten strokes lower, given 4 whacks at your course.  16 or 17 under par, that doesn't allow for a lot of two-putts, even accepting that they'll be able to reach the par 5s  in two, maybe drive a par 4.  So they hit all of those, and don't miss a single green, they still have to have 24 putts or less.  They will NOT putt better than they normally would, the greens are simply not going to be smooth enough and consistent enough to allow it.  Its just not that easy.  

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For the record on pro handicaps, I’ve attached the photo. Sight unseen, no yardage books or caddies or course knowledge, no pro is breaking 60. Are they shooting 6 under? Yeah almost always. Besides a pro’s superior short game, they’d be driving almost all par 4’s, Zach Johnson aside.


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If the top touring pros play my muni, they will tear it up IF the can stay in the fairway.  If they miss the fairway off the tee, they could have a severe downhill/uphill shot with ball well above/below their feet in the rough; not tall rough but wiry.  An otherwise easy hole will require scrambling.  Several par 4's would be drivable, and one is a risk/reward drivable par 4 for members; one of our members had an ace on it last year.  We have 5 par 5's.  All would be reachable, even the 590y #5, unless the usual 20 mph wind in the face is present.  Putting would be tricky.  I'm sure they could figure them out, but on some holes it took me a year to learn the breaks playing 3 days a week, and I am still fooled occasionally.  I think the poa annua greens are reasonably quick; not fast, and certainly not Torrey Pines fast just before the 2007 U.S Open!!  Now that was fast.  There could be a number of 2-putts.

Yes, they could go low.  Our pro had the course record 61 up until two years ago until a local amateur shot 58 in a tournament.  Course knowledge!!

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19 hours ago, stuka44 said:

Maybe you all are right, maybe the 60 yard average approach shot to the 11 par 4's, with no sand,  almost  perfectly flat, no tiers or false front for their wedge shot to roll off of, balls going to hit and stop where they hit it greens, might be too much for them to handle.  WOW!! 

I had to come back one more time for this bit.  I've never said these shots will be too much to handle.  I'm saying that given the slightly higher fairway grass, which will reduce precision of the strike, and the slightly bumpier muni greens, these guys aren't going to do any better at your course than they will on the pristine fairways and greens that they normally play.  I've conceded 4 under for the 3 par-5s and the "driveable" par 4.  Maybe there's an eagle, maybe there's a par.  To get to -16 (your claim was 55), they need to be -12 on the remaining 14 holes.

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25 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

I had to come back one more time for this bit.  I've never said these shots will be too much to handle.  I'm saying that given the slightly higher fairway grass, which will reduce precision of the strike, and the slightly bumpier muni greens, these guys aren't going to do any better at your course than they will on the pristine fairways and greens that they normally play.  I've conceded 4 under for the 3 par-5s and the "driveable" par 4.  Maybe there's an eagle, maybe there's a par.  To get to -16 (your claim was 55), they need to be -12 on the remaining 14 holes.

That's a heck of a lot of birdies to ask of anyone on any type course of any length or condition.   

It kind of goes back to that thread of month or so ago.  If you were spotted at the 125 marker in the fairway on every hole.  What would you shoot.  Probably higher for most people than they think they would. 

Making birdie is tough for anyone. 

 

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Ok, another thought on this one.   I played with one of the OEM reps this week at my course.  He is a scratch golfer now that he only plays a handful of times a year, and played D1 college golf when he was a +3 or so at the time.   6100 yard course, and while he's not tour length long, he is plenty long enough for those tees.  He barely missed a fairway all day and shot 76.  Our greens were not in the best of shape, and you could tell it threw his putting off.  And he missed a few greens that had spotty rough where he had marginal lies at best.  It was the first time seeing the course. 

So as I said above, birdies are tough to make--unless you're DJ at the Northern Trust...but that was an aberration.  

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:titelist-small: ProV1X Play number 12

 

 

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15 hours ago, Golfspy_CG2 said:

Ok, another thought on this one.   I played with one of the OEM reps this week at my course.  He is a scratch golfer now that he only plays a handful of times a year, and played D1 college golf when he was a +3 or so at the time.   6100 yard course, and while he's not tour length long, he is plenty long enough for those tees.  He barely missed a fairway all day and shot 76.  Our greens were not in the best of shape, and you could tell it threw his putting off.  And he missed a few greens that had spotty rough where he had marginal lies at best.  It was the first time seeing the course. 

So as I said above, birdies are tough to make--unless you're DJ at the Northern Trust...but that was an aberration.  


here is a thought to your thought,,,, 

 

After reading a couple of posts here, yes, most pro’s could shot lights off some muni’s out here, but only after they play it once or twice will they master the course, with the exception of the greens, here is why I think that.

Unless you been blessed with having the means to play courses in great shape all the time, you have encountered courses like I described in OP. Counting the practice green, I am sure you encountered 19 different green speeds. A pro most likely dials in the green speeds at the practice green. How can you do that when every green speed is different and some, two or three different speeds due to height they were cut or lack of grass!

some of my best rounds I played have been at courses with good to excellent conditions. 
 

 

 

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 DRIVER: default_cobra-small.jpg.125f3712aad21ad9f7ca2c672e34a299.jpg  Cobra F-8 set at 10.5,  Aldila NV 2KXV Blue 60 (R) 44 1/2 "

3 & 5 WOOD: default_callaway-small.jpg.a58e7c6760b71a9eb95d385ecc5d2200.jpg Callaway XR-16, Fujikura Speeder Evolution 565 Red (R) 

IRONS 5-SW: default_ping-small.jpg.b7606a25498d65282474c96f18d2debd.jpg PING G-700, 2 upright, std loft  Alta CB (R) + 1/2"

HYBRID 3-4:  default_ping-small.jpg.b7606a25498d65282474c96f18d2debd.jpg PING G-410, 1 upright,  Alta CB 70 Red (R) + 1/2"

PUTTER: Byron Experimental GSS

 

 

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I’d say a Pro, first time out, at my Public course, would shoot 68-69. The greens are in such crappy shape, so bumpy, we have huge oaks lining EVERY fairway, and the rough is Bermuda that is generally about 3-4” long. Bombers would be under trees in super thick Bermuda, and when they got to the greens, all of their reads wouldn’t do any good!

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Driver: :honma: TR20 460, :Fuji: Ventus Black 70X

Fwy: :titelist-small: TS3, 15*, Veylix Rome 888 X

Hybrid: :callaway-small: X2 Hot Pro, 20*, :Fuji: Rombax 8D07HB TM27 X

Irons: :honma:TR20 Tour P 4/5, Tour V 6-10, Dynamic Gold X100

Wedges: Vega VW-06 50*/54*/58*, Dynamic Gold S400

Putter: :seemore-small: Platinum M5 HT Mallet, 36"

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