How Do You Feel About What You Worked on After A Lesson With A Pro

[chisag]

8 minutes ago, cksurfdude said:

My suggestion - not being facetious, being serious - is to consider searching for a new instructor. If you've read through the other posts in this thread, the underlying unanimity is there MUST BE really good two-way communication / understanding between the instructor and the pupil.

And it kinda sounds to me like this instructor was presenting way too many technical details, too early on .. without gauging your level of receptivity...

 

... When I first started teaching an old character that was legendary in NC told me to always remember "When yur givun out infurmashun, do it by the teaspoon not by tha shovel". 

[tony@CIC]

After having taken lessons with four different instructors over the years, I took away three things: the instructor must understand how you process 'stuff'. Some people can take one one piece of information to implement others can take several. The instructor should also understand how you learn, i.e. visual learner, etc. Lastly, I don't take a lesson early or mid season. It generally takes me a month to implement the instruction and during that month my game goes to cr*p. I generally wait til the end of the season that way I have all winter to practice/implement the swing change.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using MyGolfSpy

 

[carfig]

Took my first lesson ever about a month ago after playing for over 20 years. Learned everything from books, magazines, etc. Was alway afraid it would absolutely ruin me once I started improving, got myself to a 9 handicap then everything fell apart. It started with the shanks with my wedges, and it led to my irons etc, went from an occasional round in the high 70's to struggling to break 90, this lasted for 3 months, I could not fix my swing. 

I am very lucky that I happen to live a mile from the Butch Harmon school in Vegas, didn't go to him, but one of his guys. He looked at 5 swings, had me change my grip and stand further from the ball....within that hour lesson I went from hitting my shanky fades to hitting beautiful draws. I have played 5 rounds since this lesson and it starting to feel more natural. 

I wish I would have done this a long time ago, now when I go to the range, instead of banging balls the entire time, I have specific things to work on. I would have never made those changes as they felt so unnatural. I am committed to going to him every other month or so and as soon as some new swing issue creeps in, I will likely go back. Hoping to get away from full swing lessons in a couple lessons and focus on short game. 

[Golfspy_CG2]

1 hour ago, carfig said:

Took my first lesson ever about a month ago after playing for over 20 years. Learned everything from books, magazines, etc. Was alway afraid it would absolutely ruin me once I started improving, got myself to a 9 handicap then everything fell apart. It started with the shanks with my wedges, and it led to my irons etc, went from an occasional round in the high 70's to struggling to break 90, this lasted for 3 months, I could not fix my swing. 

I am very lucky that I happen to live a mile from the Butch Harmon school in Vegas, didn't go to him, but one of his guys. He looked at 5 swings, had me change my grip and stand further from the ball....within that hour lesson I went from hitting my shanky fades to hitting beautiful draws. I have played 5 rounds since this lesson and it starting to feel more natural. 

I wish I would have done this a long time ago, now when I go to the range, instead of banging balls the entire time, I have specific things to work on. I would have never made those changes as they felt so unnatural. I am committed to going to him every other month or so and as soon as some new swing issue creeps in, I will likely go back. Hoping to get away from full swing lessons in a couple lessons and focus on short game. 

Thanks for posting this.  I’m tsking lessons now.  We are on our third lesson in trying to keep me from swaying off the ball (away from it) and get my weight moving toward the target. 

I’m so frustrated right now, i dont know what to do.  Keep at it, look for a new instructor or just bsg it and play the way i have for 30 years.   
 

The move hes trying to get me to make feels so unnatural—-which i guess it is to me .  I mentioned this is my first post, i feel part of it should be on him to come up with a drill that works for me   He keeps showing/telling me the same thing and its just not happening  

 

[Chip Strokes]

having coached various different sports professionally and semi-professionally, the biggest piece of advice i can offer is that your lesson should feel like a long conversation broken up by occasional golf swings. 

@chisag alluded to something a few posts ago - too much information at one time is extremely detrimental to learning. if your coach is feeding you more than one actionable cue on a given swing, then your ability to execute will be diminished greatly. 

a good coach will figure out how you learn first, and will meet you there when it comes to delivering information.  some clients love technical cues. some love to do things by feel. some need a demo of either what they’re doing or what they’re supposed to be doing. 

[carfig]

Well, my teacher told me if it doesn't feel unnatural...then you are doing the same thing you were doing before. I can tell you my biggest issue was standing too close to the ball....was causing me to get stuck. He video'd my first couple of swings....made the change, I told him I felt like I looked like Bryson Dechambeu and I was going to hammer down a tree...

He told me to trust it and take several swings and don't worry about the ball flight...when he showed me the second video with the adjustment, it was amazing...all of the angles where were they were supposed to be, I looked like a real golfer...that made me trust the unnatural feeling. 

Also, read the book "The Practice Manual" by Adam Young, I picked this up recently and it talks alot about changes to your swing, the unnatural feeling and how to practice....not super technical about the swing, but more the best learning process. 

It has been a full month for me and I have been going to the range twice a week and forcing myself not to go back to what "feels comfortable", it is absolutly working

 

[carfig]

2 minutes ago, Chip Strokes said:

having coached various different sports professionally and semi-professionally, the biggest piece of advice i can offer is that your lesson should feel like a long conversation broken up by occasional golf swings. 

@chisag alluded to something a few posts ago - too much information at one time is extremely detrimental to learning. if your coach is feeding you more than one actionable cue on a given swing, then your ability to execute will be diminished greatly. 

a good coach will figure out how you learn first, and will meet you there when it comes to delivering information.  some clients love technical cues. some love to do things by feel. some need a demo of either what they’re doing or what they’re supposed to be doing. 

Yep, my coach gave me 2 things to work on. That was it, and said call me in a month or so and we will see what to work on next. It was an hour of explaining why he was making those changes.....

[Chip Strokes]

2 minutes ago, carfig said:

Yep, my coach gave me 2 things to work on. That was it, and said call me in a month or so and we will see what to work on next. It was an hour of explaining why he was making those changes.....

a really good coach will identify the most egregious error first and direct attention there. usually, that fix will snowball into allowing other things to be fixed as well. 

when i was coaching olympic lifting, with newer lifters who had trouble keeping a their spine angle and their knees driven out, id spend almost a full session on their breathing and bracing. lo and behold, once they knew how to breathe and when they were supposed to hold their breath, their backs magically stayed flat and their knees drove out away from each other. 

[Kenny B]

5 hours ago, tony@CIC said:

After having taken lessons with four different instructors over the years, I took away three things: the instructor must understand how you process 'stuff'. Some people can take one one piece of information to implement others can take several. The instructor should also understand how you learn, i.e. visual learner, etc. Lastly, I don't take a lesson early or mid season. It generally takes me a month to implement the instruction and during that month my game goes to cr*p. I generally wait til the end of the season that way I have all winter to practice/implement the swing change.

 

A lot of the problem we have making a change in our swing is that we take a lesson or two or twenty just before or during golf season so we can make a better swing and play golf better the following week.  Folks, it doesn't work like that and Tony has the right idea.

I had an instructor that said if you want to make a change, you have to commit to it... not take a lesson, work on the drill a few times, then go play a round with your buddies.  Yes, you can maybe do the drill correctly if you practice it enough, but when you hit the course, your brain and body do what they are used to doing.  

For you guys in cold climates when the courses shut down, that's when you should be working on your drills.  You can't be tempted to join your buddies for nine holes or play in your weekly league next week.  It's a commitment that you have to immerse yourself in the change to the exclusion of your old swing.  You can't get rid of bad habits... you have to replace your bad habits with new, good habits, and that takes time.

For guys who can play all year, good luck!!  It boils down to:  Do you want to really make the change, or are you looking for a fast fix before your next round of golf?  I think we all know the fast fix isn't there for a swing fault that's been around for 30 years.  I speak from experience.  

[scooterhd2]

Just worked with Milo Lines of Golfletics at Superstition Mountain. Got some added insight from Mike Malaska as well. Been watching both of them on youtube for some time. Was really a great experience. Milo stripped the swing way down. Gave me two thoughts and several drills to ingrain the motion. We made a slight adjustment to my grip as well. Then the focus was really on, getting the drills and feels right, and then to hit 1/4, 1/3, and 1/2 shots. And that was all we did. It wasn't my focus, but everything is built on getting the path and face right. And doing it over and over again. Malaska was really impressed with how quick I was catching on, but still the parting sentiments were basically do not come back next week unless you feel lost. Otherwise you need to put the work in to master this part. Right now I feel like I fully grasp the concepts and am committed to them. You have 2 years of software to reprogram. Do the drills, reprogram the body, and come back when you really feel that this solid foundation is built, and we will take it to the next level.

Even still, went out the next day and shot a personal low 77 at a particularly difficult course.   

[bonvivantva]

I had a bunch of lessons, 6-8 with one guy, another 6-8 with golftech, a while back.  I felt like I honestly was worse off for having done the lessons.  Then more recently I've had two lessons so far with a new guy, and I've made a lot of progress really fast.  I think a lot of people would just assume my new instructor is exceptional, and that may very well be the case.  However, I believe the difference has been my conceptual understanding of the golf swing.  When I tried lessons the first two times, I knew nothing about plane, face to path, bowing/cupping the lead wrist, face control, weight shift, etc.  I appreciate that instructors can teach you these things, but I think they often just assume you have a basic understanding, especially if you're an ok golfer.  I've spent covid practicing a lot, but also watching just about every video on youtube.  The first two times I took lessons I'd never heard about shallowing the club.  If the instructor had referenced it, it would have been over my head.  

From all the practice, I had three personal best scores in the last four times I've been out golfing.  Despite the improvement, I decided to get a lesson because there were things I couldn't figure out, and looking at my golf swing when I video'd myself, I could tell there were issues like losing height in the backswing, and sucking the club inside, that I just couldn't figure out on my own.  After my most recent lesson, I just focused on the position at the top that my instructor had showed me.  When I got home and worked on it, I struggled at first.  Then I realized that while focusing on plane, I was letting my forearms roll a little.  Once I got that sorted, I started pureing it.

So long story short, I think beginners really could use more golf theory during lessons.  In those first lessons I remember the instructor just trying to beat a more outside takeaway into me in order to get me to come from the inside, but I really didn't understand what I was doing wrong or how a path change could help.

[Golfspy_CG2]

On 9/9/2020 at 11:39 PM, Chip Strokes said:

having coached various different sports professionally and semi-professionally, the biggest piece of advice i can offer is that your lesson should feel like a long conversation broken up by occasional golf swings.

This is so spot on, and i just experienced it. 
 

After getting frustrated with the past 6 lessons i had taken at GT, i reached out to a local instructor at a private CC that i had met previously and subsequently heard two  players at our course have great results with. 
I reached out and had a lesson this week with him.   
It was exactly as you described. He would show me something he wanted me to change, he’d explain it, tell me why and demonstrate what it should look like.  Then had me take a few slow motion moves with it, a few practice swings and then hit a shot or two followed by a review of it on tape.   Then repeat. 
During this entire time, he would casually change the conversation to give my mind and probably body a break. 
He’d ask about my irons, what led me to those. 
He’d ask about fittings i had. 

We focused on two things that lesson. My swing plane, which i was able to change right away he said.   
The more involved was a proper release, i had an extremely early release.  So we worked on getting that to a mote proper release. 
I had some success  certainly not as immediate and consistent as my path.  But the times I was able to release properly, I went from hitting a very high Fade 100 yard PW to a 120 Yard drawing PW with a slightly lower trajectory.  Boy, what a different feeling.

One of the most productive hours i have spent in golf in a long time.

 

[Chip Strokes]

21 minutes ago, Golfspy_CG2 said:

This is so spot on, and i just experienced it. 
 

After getting frustrated with the past 6 lessons i had taken at GT, i reached out to a local instructor at a private CC that i had met previously and subsequently heard two  players at our course have great results with. 
I reached out and had a lesson this week with him.   
It was exactly as you described. He would show me something he wanted me to change, he’d explain it, tell me why and demonstrate what it should look like.  Then had me take a few slow motion moves with it, a few practice swings and then hit a shot or two followed by a review of it on tape.   Then repeat. 
During this entire time, he would casually change the conversation to give my mind and probably body a break. 
He’d ask about my irons, what led me to those. 
He’d ask about fittings i had. 

We focused on two things that lesson. My swing plane, which i was able to change right away he said.   
The more involved was a proper release, i had an extremely early release.  So we worked on getting that to a mote proper release. 
I had some success  certainly not as immediate and consistent as my path.  But the times I was able to release properly, I went from hitting a very high Fade 100 yard PW to a 120 Yard drawing PW with a slightly lower trajectory.  Boy, what a different feeling.

One of the most productive hours i have spent in golf in a long time.

 

that’s  awesome @Golfspy_CG2!! it’s amazing what a difference it makes when you vibe well with a coach. 

[Chip Strokes]

bringing this thread back to life after 2 months because it’s really amazing how good a lesson can make you feel

one of the issues i deal with in my irons is delivering too much loft when i swing at speed. i tend to kind of flip through the ball, and that sends my ball height into orbit. 

today, i was working with my coach on getting that dynamic loft down. he went through a few cues, and things were moving in the right direction, then he turned off the projector screen and the computer monitor.

he pointed to a spot on the now white screen and said “ok, now hit the ball below this spot....ok now below this spot...now this spot.”

wash, rinse, repeat for about 10 shots, and then he turned the screens back on

the result? the dynamic loft on my 7i came WAYYYY down. 

before that drill, i was bringing the club in at about 45* and losing 20-30 yards of carry 

those 10 shots went 34*, 31*, 29*, and then 6 in a row between 26-27*  

carry came back up to 196-198 and everything was struck flush  

he recognized early in us working together that too many cues on what to do with my body just gets me crossed up, so now we work from shot result backwards.  

 

[cksurfdude]

On 10/17/2020 at 11:00 PM, bonvivantva said:

However, I believe the difference has been my conceptual understanding of the golf swing.  When I tried lessons the first two times, I knew nothing ... (etc.)

Nailed it! The student has to be ready to take a lesson.

I took a bunch of lessons early on when I started golfing - and glad I did - but no question a lot of what the instructors were attempting to convey to me got lost.......

Then I went through a longish period of no in-person lessons, trying to work out things on my own. Not so glad I did that - very little, very mediocre progression all that time.

Now I'm committed to a series of lessons (at a GolfTec center; for me it seems to be working out so far) where we're effectively rebuilding my entire swing - piece by piece - and now I'm a reasonably knowledgeable (and very willing, of course!) participant so I can better comprehend each instruction.

That said... I do seem to be a bit of a slow golf learner, so I'm lucky to have a very patient instructor who will repeat verbally and on-screen everything he's trying to get me to do. 

Which I guess guess back to CG2's original question.. for me, I have to work work work and think about visualize cogitate on consider and drill drill drill practice practice practice each and every particular piece of the puzzle until it starts to slowly seep into my thick (thickening more with age ) head.

But we are getting somewhere.

[higherplane]

Have always gotten something valuable from golf lessons and try to do a few every year.    Answered 1 from top in survey as typically think the lesson is mixed but then realize it is me that was missing the point.   

[Grand Stranded]

I know a lot of golfers. A lot. But I only know one person who's ever gone from what I would call a poor player to a very good one because of lessons.

I'm a firm believer that unless you get very good instruction from when you began playing, you aren't going to get much better than you are after playing a few years. You might be able to tweak a few things, but once the muscle memory kicks in, your swing is your swing.

Old habits are hard to break, especially in golf.

Edited November 24, 2020 by Grand Stranded

[Longleft]

On 8/29/2020 at 11:00 AM, Gambyt said:

 

This is a really interesting thread, and I think that Chisag hits the nail on the head about an "onion" and layers.

I am very new to golf - I only started with my wife at the tail end of June, but we have been out between 4-5 times per week (for 9 holes).  I would be what I assume people would call a high handicapper.  

My wife and I purchased a package of lessons from the local pro, but I found it incredibly frustrating.  Full disclosure - I actually found this thread while I was surfing the internet trying to find  recommendations for a good online coaching site (top speed golf and rotary swing keep coming up...).

The difficulty I had with the instruction was, "keep the left arm straight, imagine you have a towel under your right armpit to keep that arm in, shift your weight, but don't move your hips or your head, transfer you weight using your hips and bring the club through with your wrists, and imagine there is something under your left toe to keep the weight forward, and follow through with your body to face the target."

In the next breath, it was, "don't think about it and let the club do the work".  

So I'm trying to think about everything - and nothing - all at the same time.  Which means that I am skulling some shots, chunking others, slicing many of them, outright missing the GD ball on some occasions and then, once in a glorious while, connecting and hitting the ball like I should be playing in the pros (please note that I have not one shred of evidence to support this claim).

So, ultimately, my response to the survey would be somewhere between 2 and 3.  I'm not ready to give up, although the though has crossed my mind...  And I have admittedly walked a couple of holes while my wife golfed without touching a club to regain some composure (and self confidence) before resuming.

All that said, any suggestions on online training would be appreciated!

 

I have to preface this by saying I am NOT an instructor and in 25 years of golf I could count on my hands the number of lessons I've taken. Quick background, I'm a lefty and came from baseball, I swing hard and until 5 or so years ago my swing was very long (back and shoulders). My first lesson ever was about a year after I started playing and I had the same experience you describe. I was trying to figure out putting the clubface on the ball and the pro was talking about "feels" that were WAY beyond my knowledge. I had a 3 lesson package with him given to me as a gift, I never went back for the last two...

Fast forward 20 years and I play sporadically, some years 50 rounds, some years 5 (kids, job, blah blah blah...) but I can hold my own against my buddies on our annual trip. Typically in the low 80s. I'd been a solid 10 index since 2002, no matter how much I played or practiced, it just was my game. I was beating balls on the range in late 2019 preparing for the annual trip and the pro at my home course, who is a family friend, wanders over and starts chatting. In 5 minutes of looking and one video taken he changed my thought process and my game. I'm now a 5.9 and trending down at 46 years old with the same job and same kids and wife

All of this is a long way of saying that finding a pro who speaks your language is the most critical part of the process. If you are 6 months into the game and lack the understanding of proper grip, setup/alignment and rotation, every single item you listed is worthless to you. Find a better pro who will teach you the fundamentals, find out if any local courses host "range time with the pro" group lessons or something similar. "Golf with Aimee" is, in my view, a great YouTube channel where she explains concepts in language anyone can understand. Don't give up on the game, the frustration only increases the reward when you pure one!

[dlow206]

On 11/23/2020 at 9:21 PM, Grand Stranded said:

I know a lot of golfers. A lot. But I only know one person who's ever gone from what I would call a poor player to a very good one because of lessons.

I'm a firm believer that unless you get very good instruction from when you began playing, you aren't going to get much better than you are after playing a few years. You might be able to tweak a few things, but once the muscle memory kicks in, your swing is your swing.

Old habits are hard to break, especially in golf.

I get what you are saying, but I think its possible. I am an interesting case to see if i can make it over the hump and eventually become a decent player. I have only been playing regularly for a little bit over a year, but initially learned how to swing when I was a kid. But because I only played like 15 rounds in my life before last year, I don't really count that. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

On 11/24/2020 at 12:21 AM, Grand Stranded said:

I'm a firm believer that unless you get very good instruction from when you began playing, you aren't going to get much better than you are after playing a few years. You might be able to tweak a few things, but once the muscle memory kicks in, your swing is your swing.

Disagree. Just like it took time for the current swing mechanics a person has to take hold the same applies for making a change. It may take some longer than others to make the change complete but over the course of 1-2 years give or take a person can change their swing. The problem is too many including myself at one point wanted the changes to be done in a short period of time and once they get comfortable with the results the practice of the changes goes away and little by little the old mechanics creep in.

Gankas talks about this in his course and how one can still play while making changes. I think it was mentioned in this thread earlier that one has to turn the brain off on the course which is what Gankas talks about and let the swing work take place in the practice range and the more reps a person puts in the more the new moves will become natural. In the beginning of the program he talks about the amount of time it will take to make the change and that those looking for the quick fix can do that but the program will be beneficial to the ones who commit to the long term change.

While not the best example Tiger changed his swing or aspects of his swing and we all got to see the process play out and that it was 18-24 months before his new swing was at a point of being his swing.

Brandon Todd changed his mechanics and went from 2000 in the world to two tour wins the last couple years and way up in the rankings