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Most forgiving players or players distance irons?


Hook DeLoft

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I know players irons aren't designed to be forgiving, but I would still like to hear people's opinions on the topic.  Especially interested in the manner in which you found them to be forgiving (thin shots, sole interaction, toe shots, heel shots, etc).  I've looked at the official MGS rankings but would really like to hear about your personal experience.

14 of the following:

Ping G430 Max 10.5 degree

Callaway 2023 Big Bertha 3 wood set to 17 degrees

Cobra F9 Speedback 7/8 wood set at 23.5 degrees

Callaway Epic Max 11 wood

Ping Eye 2 BeCu 2-SW

Mizuno 923 JPX HM HL 6-GW

Hogan sand wedge 56 degree bent to 53

Maltby M Series+ 54 degree

Ping Glide 3.0 Eye2 58 degree

Ping Glide 3.0 60 degree

Evnroll ER2

Ping Sigma 2 Anser

Cheap Top Flite mallet putter from Dick's, currently holding down first place in the bag

TaylorMade Mini Spider

Bridgestone XS

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When I was doing my fitting, I was hitting mostly GI irons, but also hit the Wilson D7 forged. While I ended up fitting best into the standard Mavriks, the D7 numbers weren't that far off for me. On solid hits, they were extremely similar to the Mavriks, but they were a bit more punishing on mishits. Not blade punishing levels - the ball still went, but didn't go as far as mishits on the GI irons I hit.

So, it's a small sample size and wasn't playing them in a round, but it seems like the D7 are pretty forgiving for a players distance style iron.

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I dont know if my categorization of what a "players distance iron" is matches everyone else's, but here are 3 irons I think are a good combination of distance and forgiveness, while still having some "players" features.

1.  Titleist T100s-  probably a bit biased here, as this is what I play, but I play them because I think they are a great mix of workability/forgiveness/distance.  I dont consider myself a great ball striker,  but I still enjoy these irons, they do a great job with distance control and consistency, while still being workable and very appealing to the eye.

2.  Mavrik Pros-  a bit of a thicker top line, but I enjoyed testing these irons.  The head is compact enough that better players shouldn't be too turned off by it. Lots of distance and tech built in. Feel good for cast.

 

3. P770S-  As much as I hated the P790s, I really dig the p770s,  looks like a blade (obviously a bit thick in spots) but has lots of pop, and feels 100x better than the p790.

 

I know you asked "how are they forgiving " and I dont have specifics per se, the only way I can describe the forgiveness for all of these is this, I never felt unfairly punished for a less than stellar swing, and never felt these irons were "too good" for me.  Yes, miss hits didn't fly as far,  and toe strikes drew more, but i never felt like I bit off more club than I could handle.

 

 

Lefty

Epic flash 9*+2* HZRDS smoke stiff 60g

T100s/200 combo project x LZ 6.5  125g std length 2* upright 

 

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8 hours ago, Perrymr said:

I dont know if my categorization of what a "players distance iron" is matches everyone else's, but here are 3 irons I think are a good combination of distance and forgiveness, while still having some "players" features.

1.  Titleist T100s-  probably a bit biased here, as this is what I play, but I play them because I think they are a great mix of workability/forgiveness/distance.  I dont consider myself a great ball striker,  but I still enjoy these irons, they do a great job with distance control and consistency, while still being workable and very appealing to the eye.

2.  Mavrik Pros-  a bit of a thicker top line, but I enjoyed testing these irons.  The head is compact enough that better players shouldn't be too turned off by it. Lots of distance and tech built in. Feel good for cast.

 

3. P770S-  As much as I hated the P790s, I really dig the p770s,  looks like a blade (obviously a bit thick in spots) but has lots of pop, and feels 100x better than the p790.

 

I know you asked "how are they forgiving " and I dont have specifics per se, the only way I can describe the forgiveness for all of these is this, I never felt unfairly punished for a less than stellar swing, and never felt these irons were "too good" for me.  Yes, miss hits didn't fly as far,  and toe strikes drew more, but i never felt like I bit off more club than I could handle.

 

 

This is a good list, based on my last test.   With one caveat.  The P790 is more forgiving than the P770, not a ton more forgiving, but more forgiving none the less.   Another caveat, the P790 is not for everyone.  If you are in a good spin window with standard irons, or on the low end the P790 are much lower spin than the P770.

I also found the new Cobra Forged TEC on the same level with the P770's and for me they were in about the same window, spin and launch.

Clubs in great standing

  • Driver - Callaway Epic Max LS - Rogue White 130 MSI TX
  • 3 Wood - Taylormade 300 Mini 13.5 - UST Mamiya Black 79X
  • 5 Wood - Taylormade Sim Max - HZRDOUS smoke black 6.5
  • Irons - Srixon ZX5 5 iron, Srixon ZX7 (6-9)  - Recoil 110 F5
  • Wedges - Cleveland 46, 50*, 54*, & 60* Zipcore mid bounce - Recoil 110 F5
  • Putter -  Mannkrafted MA/66 - UST Frequency Filter, LAB MEZZ.1  - BGT Stability

Clubs in good standing(fighting for one spot)....

  • 7 Wood - Company that shall not be named - UST Mamiya Black 79TX | Util - Callaway Apex X Forged UTIL 21* - AD-DI | Util - Srixon ZXU 18* -  Recoil 110 F5 | Util - Callaway UW 19* - HZRDOUS smoke black 6.5

Clubs that need a timeout/replacing

 

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What type of forgiveness are you looking for? If you don’t have a problem getting the ball in the air you really don’t care about irons that will be forgiving in that way. For toe hits do you want directional or distance forgiveness? Do you hit the ball fat and want wider soles to prevent digging?

Pretty much all clubs; with the possible exception of
Muscle backs, have some built In forgiveness. After testing all these clubs I find it very hard to differentiate significant forgiveness differences. What I do find is that some work better for my swing than others but I would attribute that to the club not being fit to my swing needs.

Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15*  w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype        
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :titleist-small: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite
Putter:   :taylormade-small:TM-180

Testing:   SPGC_logo.jpg

Backups:  :odyssey-small: Milled Collection RSX 2, :seemore-small: mFGP2, :cameron-small: Futura 5W

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

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Thanks for the replies. Keep ‘me coming. 

14 of the following:

Ping G430 Max 10.5 degree

Callaway 2023 Big Bertha 3 wood set to 17 degrees

Cobra F9 Speedback 7/8 wood set at 23.5 degrees

Callaway Epic Max 11 wood

Ping Eye 2 BeCu 2-SW

Mizuno 923 JPX HM HL 6-GW

Hogan sand wedge 56 degree bent to 53

Maltby M Series+ 54 degree

Ping Glide 3.0 Eye2 58 degree

Ping Glide 3.0 60 degree

Evnroll ER2

Ping Sigma 2 Anser

Cheap Top Flite mallet putter from Dick's, currently holding down first place in the bag

TaylorMade Mini Spider

Bridgestone XS

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If youre looking for pure forgiveness, I would sift thru the GolfWorks MPF data.  Not for the final score, but the MOI data.  The MOI youll see in MPF is the actual measurement of the resistance to twisting on off center hits, which is the purpose behind perimeter weighting.  

It can also be enlightening.  😉😲

Doesn't hurt to also look at CG location.  Overgeneralizing, sweepers might like lower CG, steeper players might like higher CG, heel miss players might like shorter C-dimension, and so on.

I'm a bit of a data nerd, so it appeals to me for these sorts of questions.  <shrug>

Driver: TM Original One 11.5* set to 11*, Aldila NV75 X, 43.5" -or- SpeedZone, HZRDUS Black 75 6.5, 43.5"
3w:  Cobra King LTD, RIP Beta 90, 42" -or- Stage 2 Tour, NV105 X, 42.5"
2h or 3h:  TaylorMade Stage 2 Tour, Aldila NV105 S -or- RIP Alpha 105 S
Irons:  3-PW Mizuno MP37, Recoil Proto 125 F4 (reshaft in progress, slowly); 1i & 3-PW Golden Ram TW276, NV105 S; 2-PW Golden Ram TW282, RIP Tour 115 R
GW: Dynacraft Dual Milled CNC 52*, Steelfiber 125 S; Scratch 8620 DS 53*, Steelfiber 125 S
SW:  Ram TG-898 56*, DGX ss2x; Ram Tom Watson 55*, DGX ss2x; Wilson Staff PMP 58*, DGS; PM Grind 19 58*, stock shaft
Putter:  Snake Eyes Viper Tour Sv1, 34"; Ping Scottsdale TR Craz-E, 35"; Cleveland Huntington Beach 1, 35"
Ball:  Wilson Staff Duo Professional, Bridgestone Tour B-RXS, Callaway Chrome Soft

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I'm not being partial but you should read the Sub-70 699 pro, member testing thread and the MGS official review.

:titleist-small: Driver, TSi 1 S Flex

:cobra-small: 3 wood, Aerojet Max UST Helium Nanocore R Flex

:cobra-small: 5 wood, Aerojet Max UST Helium Nanocore R Flex 

:cobra-small: 7 Wood, Aerojet Max UST Helium Nanocore R Flex 

:cobra-small: 5 Hybrid King Tec MMT R Flex

:cobra-small: Irons, Tour UST Recoil 95 R Flex (6 - Gap)

:cobra-small: Wedges, Snakebite KBS Hi- Rev2.0 54* & 60*

:cobra-small: Agera 35"

image.png Ultralight 14-way Cart Bag

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If you don’t mind an older club, the RBZ Tour and or the Tour Preferred MC are extremely helpful on the thin shots.

Comparing the T100s to the RBZ Tour the RBZ offers a load more forgiveness.  The speed a lot helps a ton here.  I imagine the 770’s are very similar.

The T100S has the RBZ Tour all day long in the feel department though.

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On 9/9/2020 at 10:37 AM, Hook DeLoft said:

I know players irons aren't designed to be forgiving, but I would still like to hear people's opinions on the topic.  Especially interested in the manner in which you found them to be forgiving (thin shots, sole interaction, toe shots, heel shots, etc).  I've looked at the official MGS rankings but would really like to hear about your personal experience.

Honma TR20 P & V. They’ve blown away my Srixons. Probably a better shaft fit for me as well, but these irons are honestly the best I’ve played in awhile. So good. So consistent, and quite forgiving, and if you get a chance to do a fitting for them with a Honma rep, you’ll be pleasantly surprised with their performance, and they’re no more expensive than a set of Titleist/Mizuno/TaylorMade.

Driver: Ping G430 Max 9*, Ping Tour 70X

Fairway: Ping G425 15*, Ping Tour 70X

Hybrid: Ping G425 22*, Ping Tour 80X

Irons:  Ping i230 4-GW, TT DG X100

Wedges: :edel-golf-1: SMS 50D/54V/58D:Nippon:Modus 130 stiff, +1”

Putter:  :edel-golf-1: EAS 1.0

Ball: Titleist 2023 AVX

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12 minutes ago, PMookie said:

Honma TR20 P & V. They’ve blown away my Srixons. Probably a better shaft fit for me as well, but these irons are honestly the best I’ve played in awhile. So good. So consistent, and quite forgiving, and if you get a chance to do a fitting for them with a Honma rep, you’ll be pleasantly surprised with their performance, and they’re no more expensive than a set of Titleist/Mizuno/TaylorMade.

I am not sure they blow away my srixons;  I have been hitting them as part of most wanted testing and would love to put a set in my bag.   But I have really like almost all the clubs in the players category. 

Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15*  w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 915H 21* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype        
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :titleist-small: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite
Putter:   :taylormade-small:TM-180

Testing:   SPGC_logo.jpg

Backups:  :odyssey-small: Milled Collection RSX 2, :seemore-small: mFGP2, :cameron-small: Futura 5W

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

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1 hour ago, cnosil said:

I am not sure they blow away my srixons;  I have been hitting them as part of most wanted testing and would love to put a set in my bag.   But I have really like almost all the clubs in the players category. 

As you’ve said many times, one club doesn’t fit everyone. They are the best irons I’ve played in a long time... 

Driver: Ping G430 Max 9*, Ping Tour 70X

Fairway: Ping G425 15*, Ping Tour 70X

Hybrid: Ping G425 22*, Ping Tour 80X

Irons:  Ping i230 4-GW, TT DG X100

Wedges: :edel-golf-1: SMS 50D/54V/58D:Nippon:Modus 130 stiff, +1”

Putter:  :edel-golf-1: EAS 1.0

Ball: Titleist 2023 AVX

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Playing Ping G410's all of 2019 and Wilson Staff blades all of 2020 I still contend that "forgiveness" is highly overrated. Not that it doesn't exsist. Just overrated. Flame away!😀

Ping G430 Driver, 19° Hybrid, Ping Anser 23° Hybrid, Mizuno 923 Hot Metal 6-GW, Ping 54°&58° Glides, Scotty Cameron 5.5

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, braincramp said:

Playing Ping G410's all of 2019 and Wilson Staff blades all of 2020 I still contend that "forgiveness" is highly overrated. Not that it doesn't exsist. Just overrated. Flame away!😀

no flaming, just curious what makes you say that. 

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22 minutes ago, Chip Strokes said:

no flaming, just curious what makes you say that. 

Because a bad shot is still a bad shot. If I hit my G410 off the toe I still lost yardage. Maybe 5 yards instead of 10 but it was still a miss. If I flush my blade the results are the same as a flushed G410. Now, if I HAD to play long irons there is no question I'd play the 410's. There just isn't the enormous difference that some make it out to be especially from the 6 iron on down. My handicap went down 2 points from a 10 to a 8 this year. If SGI irons really made that much of a difference my handicap shouldn't have gone down. Did the blades make the difference? I don't think so. My handicap went down because I played more golf. Do blades take more effort to play? Sure they do. For me it's worth it. Just my opinion. How much golf you play has a lot more to do with playing well than the tool you use to play it.

Ping G430 Driver, 19° Hybrid, Ping Anser 23° Hybrid, Mizuno 923 Hot Metal 6-GW, Ping 54°&58° Glides, Scotty Cameron 5.5

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, braincramp said:

Because a bad shot is still a bad shot. If I hit my G410 off the toe I still lost yardage. Maybe 5 yards instead of 10 but it was still a miss. If I flush my blade the results are the same as a flushed G410. Now, if I HAD to play long irons there is no question I'd play the 410's. There just isn't the enormous difference that some make it out to be especially from the 6 iron on down. My handicap went down 2 points from a 10 to a 8 this year. If SGI irons really made that much of a difference my handicap shouldn't have gone down. Did the blades make the difference? I don't think so. My handicap went down because I played more golf. Do blades take more effort to play? Sure they do. For me it's worth it. Just my opinion. How much golf you play has a lot more to do with playing well than the tool you use to play it.

i agree with all of this. i’m new to golf and chose to go with small players irons over GI irons because i want to force myself to improve, as opposed to letting the clubs do the work for me. 

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  image.png.4f15ae5144722103242556b2db6d1033.pngSIM 3W 14º | Fujikura Atmos Black Tour Spec 9TX

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1 minute ago, Chip Strokes said:

i agree with all of this. i’m new to golf and chose to go with small players irons over GI irons because i want to force myself to improve, as opposed to letting the clubs do the work for me. 

There are some that will tell you that what you're doing doesn't work. I honestly have no idea if they're right or not. It still comes down to effort. How much effort a person puts into anything be it work,marriage, or golf or anything else determines the end result. Holy crap! I'm gettin' pretty deep here. What I'm trying to say is that if there was a set of irons I could go out and buy and they would make me shoot par or better rather I played once a month or 15 times a month, I'd buy them no matter what they felt like or looked like. Unfortunately , they don't exist.

Ping G430 Driver, 19° Hybrid, Ping Anser 23° Hybrid, Mizuno 923 Hot Metal 6-GW, Ping 54°&58° Glides, Scotty Cameron 5.5

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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It all depends what kind of help or forgiveness you are looking for - I can only speak to my experience, but I tested out a bunch of player distance irons last winter and was seduced by the length of the p790s (who doesn’t want to see a 7 iron fly 180, and come in at 48 degrees?). When I took them out on the course, I couldn’t control the distance and it created gapping issues throughout the bag. The misses were fine, but spin disappeared and I flew greens too often. 
I took them back and got some mp20 mmc in the mid-irons and they are really consistent with distance and spin (my miss is catching it a bit thin, and there is little distance variance and they still hold). When I really miss, with a brain-fart swing, no club in the world is saving that shot.

to be honest, I hit the mizunos on a launch monitor against the oldest irons I own (a set of Nike vr forged pro combo) and the Nikes are as forgiving and consistent as the new mizunos. If I hadn’t shelled out the cash, it is tempting to play them again (with a 35deg 7 iron).

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Callaway Epic Flash SZ 9deg, 15 deg tensei av blue x flex

Cobra F9 hybrid 17deg, 24 deg

Mizuno MP20 (6,7,8 MMC, 9,PW MB)

Callaway MD4 50, 54, 58

Scotty Cameron Select Squareback 2

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I find my Titleist AP3 forgiving on fat and thin shots, but not heel or toe. They’re hard enough to hit that I have to practice and pay attention, but not so difficult to take the enjoyment away. And this is going to sound weird, but I love how a flushed iron feels at impact, but not in love with the sound. I’m not sure if these compare more directly to T-100 or T -200 but they’ll be much cheaper than either...

 

 

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Driver - Cobra LtDxLS

3 Wood - Ping g410 LST

2iron - Titleist U505

Irons - Ping i59

Wedges - Vokey Sm9

Putter - Mizuno Mcraft IV

 

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I play the I500s and find them pretty forgiving. Asian still some focus needed but those alight mishits still find the green, if I lost 10 yards not, 5 maybe I don't catch it and have to chip. I would also say when trying players distance to watch the spin and try different golf balls. Decent angle helps to stop but soon can really help moderate the distance and manage it. As a bit of a spinny iron player I almost never hit a no spin flier, but if your spin is borderline that drop might give you a flier. TXG has shown a number of times moving to a Mizuno ball the spring going up by 500 might take a set from unplayable to good to go moving those fliers up 500 in spin.

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:ping-small: Glide 4.0 50°.12°S/54°.14°W/58°.6°T PING Z-Z115 Wedge Flex | :cleveland-small:  SOFT 11S Super Stroke Mid-Slim 2.0
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14 hours ago, ejgaudette said:

I play the I500s and find them pretty forgiving. Asian still some focus needed but those alight mishits still find the green, if I lost 10 yards not, 5 maybe I don't catch it and have to chip. I would also say when trying players distance to watch the spin and try different golf balls. Decent angle helps to stop but soon can really help moderate the distance and manage it. As a bit of a spinny iron player I almost never hit a no spin flier, but if your spin is borderline that drop might give you a flier. TXG has shown a number of times moving to a Mizu  no ball the spring going up by 500 might take a set from unplayable to good to go moving those fliers up 500 in spin.

Good point on the ball.  I tend to hit my irons with low spin and play the spinniest balls I can find.

14 of the following:

Ping G430 Max 10.5 degree

Callaway 2023 Big Bertha 3 wood set to 17 degrees

Cobra F9 Speedback 7/8 wood set at 23.5 degrees

Callaway Epic Max 11 wood

Ping Eye 2 BeCu 2-SW

Mizuno 923 JPX HM HL 6-GW

Hogan sand wedge 56 degree bent to 53

Maltby M Series+ 54 degree

Ping Glide 3.0 Eye2 58 degree

Ping Glide 3.0 60 degree

Evnroll ER2

Ping Sigma 2 Anser

Cheap Top Flite mallet putter from Dick's, currently holding down first place in the bag

TaylorMade Mini Spider

Bridgestone XS

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1 hour ago, Hook DeLoft said:

Good point on the ball.  I tend to hit my irons with low spin and play the spinniest balls I can find.

They use the Mizuno RB Tour X as their high spin ball.

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:ping-small: Glide 4.0 50°.12°S/54°.14°W/58°.6°T PING Z-Z115 Wedge Flex | :cleveland-small:  SOFT 11S Super Stroke Mid-Slim 2.0
:ping-small: Hoofer Bag | :titelist-small: Pro V1 | Right Handed | Tracked by :ShotScope: V3

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31 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

... This topic is always subject to skewed personal opinion and the above in bold is WRX worthy. Forgiveness is certainly not highly over rated, it just depends on how you miss and why you miss. For someone struggling to hit the ball high enough, weight low and possibly a thicker sole can do wonders for their iron game. Someone that misses on the toe can benefit tremendously from extreme heel toe weighting. There is a reason they make CB wedges and while many will not benefit, some most certainly will. And don't get me started on the MB's are just as easy to play as GI's or make you a better ball striker. There are always exceptions to general rules and I have no doubt the above works for any given individual but the majority will benefit from forgiveness and will not play better with MB's. 

... If someone said soft tipped shafts are over rated and you should play a stiff tipped shaft and learn to hit drives with the proper AOA I think you would be inundated with contrary opinions. ALL equipment is designed to maximize any given swing. What Tiger needs and what a 15 index that has an over the top fade/slice needs is radically different and neither Tigers MB's or the 15 index's SGI's are over rated. 

I completely agree, forgiveness for your misses are what we all need to consider. GI irons might not help everyone's misses but they help many. Isn't that what golf equipment is about. That's what makes adjustable drivers and fittings so powerful. I still contend that iron that reduces overall dispersion is the way to go no matter if that is a forged CB or an SGI iron. 

:callaway-small: Epic Max LS 9° :Fuji: Ventus Blue 6X  (2021 Official Review) | :callaway-small:Epic Speed 18° Evenflow Riptide 70g 6.0
:titelist-small: 816 H1 21° Mitsubishi Motors Mitsubishi Chemical Holdings Chemical industry Mitsubishi  Rayon Mitsubishi Chemical Corporation, mitsubishi, blue, company png |  PNGEgg Diamana S+ Blue 70 S | 
image.png.08bbf5bb553da418019f0db13c6f4f9a.png SMS 4-5/SMS Pro 6-PW  image.png.267751aa721ee9cf3944fa2ff070b98c.png  Steelfiber i95 S (2023 Official Review)
:ping-small: Glide 4.0 50°.12°S/54°.14°W/58°.6°T PING Z-Z115 Wedge Flex | :cleveland-small:  SOFT 11S Super Stroke Mid-Slim 2.0
:ping-small: Hoofer Bag | :titelist-small: Pro V1 | Right Handed | Tracked by :ShotScope: V3

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My highly subjective experience: I've found that most CBs, as long as they have some tungsten in the sole/toe, provide me with probably 80-90% of the forgiveness I need. My miss tends to be thin or slightly out by the toe. I also like the smaller club head when hitting out of the rough since it seems to get in and out of the turf more easily. That said, as the tech-packed irons continue to get more "players" looking I will probably look for that type of set when I am up for new irons in a couple of years.

A while back before some swing changes I was very steep into the ball and wider soles were a must to reduce the size of the beaver pelts I was taking out of the ground; think Ping i210, JPX forged for players-ish irons with wider soles. When my swing was steep, smaller-soled CBs definitely did not work for me.

 

 

Driver:  :titelist-small: TSi 3 10* w/ Graphite Design AD IZ 7X 

Fairway/Hybrid: :titelist-small: TSi 2 15* & 18* w/ Graphite Design AD IZ 7X, AD IZ 95X

Irons: :taylormade-small: P790 4i, P770 5-7i, P7MC 8-P, $ Taper 120

Wedges:  :vokey-small: SM7 52F/54 S, 58 M w/ Modus 125

Putter:  :cameron-small:  California Hollywood 34" Circle H

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6 hours ago, chisag said:

 

... This topic is always subject to skewed personal opinion and the above in bold is WRX worthy. Forgiveness is certainly not highly over rated, it just depends on how you miss and why you miss. For someone struggling to hit the ball high enough, weight low and possibly a thicker sole can do wonders for their iron game. Someone that misses on the toe can benefit tremendously from extreme heel toe weighting. There is a reason they make CB wedges and while many will not benefit, some most certainly will. And don't get me started on the MB's are just as easy to play as GI's or make you a better ball striker. There are always exceptions to general rules and I have no doubt the above works for any given individual but the majority will benefit from forgiveness and will not play better with MB's. 

... If someone said soft tipped shafts are over rated and you should play a stiff tipped shaft and learn to hit drives with the proper AOA I think you would be inundated with contrary opinions. ALL equipment is designed to maximize any given swing. What Tiger needs and what a 15 index that has an over the top fade/slice needs is radically different and neither Tigers MB's or the 15 index's SGI's are over rated. 

I've always respected your opinions Chisag so help me out. Why do I ( at 68 years old)score just as well with blades as I do with any other type of iron ? No one was more surprised than me when I came to that conclusion 20 years ago. And I'm not being a smart a$$. I'm being serious. I still contend the amount of time you spend playing golf is the main key to playing well regardless of the hunk of metal you're holding on to. 

Ping G430 Driver, 19° Hybrid, Ping Anser 23° Hybrid, Mizuno 923 Hot Metal 6-GW, Ping 54°&58° Glides, Scotty Cameron 5.5

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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29 minutes ago, braincramp said:

I've always respected your opinions Chisag so help me out. Why do I ( at 68 years old)score just as well with blades as I do with any other type of iron ? No one was more surprised than me when I came to that conclusion 20 years ago. And I'm not being a smart a$$. I'm being serious. I still contend the amount of time you spend playing golf is the main key to playing well regardless of the hunk of metal you're holding on to. 

 

... I do not think you are a smart a$$ at all, but like I said in my post "There are always exceptions to general rules and I have no doubt the above works for any given individual". There are many factors that go into why anyone hits some clubs better than others. Confidence in what you're hitting cannot be over stated and some players are just more confident with MB's. My point was certainly not a disagreement as to what works for you (or any other individual player) but just a disagreement that forgiveness is over rated. Most club fitters will tell you all golfers should be playing the most forgiving club they can effectively play. For some that is a MB or a forged CB that is very blade like. But the majority will be able to take advantage of forgiveness inherent in todays club head designs because forgiveness does not mask a bad swing but it can help a shot hit by a bad swing. There are just a ton of players that consistently hit the ball thin, on the toe or consistently low without enough spin or for many just all over the face and they can all use the forgiving features any club can provide. There is a reason OEMs sell more GI and SGI irons with lighter weight graphite shafts than MB's with 120gm steel shafts and it isn't marketing.

... I would certainly never tell anyone on a golf forum that they were wrong because they say they play MB's better than Player Irons or any iron or club better than another. Same with shafts. I have seen 85 mph swing speeds hit x flex better than r flex but these are all exceptions. When OEM's do testing to fine tune a made for shaft they find that the majority of players need more torque, a softer tip and a lighter weight than the aftermarket shaft they are selling. I have no doubt that many more testers hit a made for Ventus Blue better the a true Ventus Blue because most need more spin, not less. Low spin and high launch is great for the better player but the average guy will do very poorly with low spin and mid to low launch that a real Ventus Blue produces. And fwiw, I mostly agree with you that " I still contend the amount of time you spend playing golf is the main key to playing well regardless of the hunk of metal you're holding on to." Unless you are playing clubs that do not fit your swing at all. But as long as you are in the ball park for clubs that fit your swing, it is always more about skill and practice than what club you are using. 

Driver:     :taylormade-small:  Qi10 10.5* ... Ventus Red Velocore 5R
Fairway:  :cobra-small: Aerojet 3/5 ... Kai'li Blue 60R
Hybrids:  :ping-small:      430 Hybrid 22*... Steelfiber 780Hy 
                  :taylormade-small:  DHy #4 ... Diamana LTD 65r 
Irons:       :titleist-small:         '23 T200 5-Pw ... Steelfiber i95r
Wedges:  :taylormade-small: Vokey 50*/54*/58* ... Steelfiber i95r
Putter:     :cobra-small:  Sport-60 33" 
Ball:           Maxfli     Maxfli Tour

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9 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

... I do not think you are a smart a$$ at all, but like I said in my post "There are always exceptions to general rules and I have no doubt the above works for any given individual". There are many factors that go into why anyone hits some clubs better than others. Confidence in what you're hitting cannot be over stated and some players are just more confident with MB's. My point was certainly not a disagreement as to what works for you (or any other individual player) but just a disagreement that forgiveness is over rated. Most club fitters will tell you all golfers should be playing the most forgiving club they can effectively play. For some that is a MB or a forged CB that is very blade like. But the majority will be able to take advantage of forgiveness inherent in todays club head designs because forgiveness does not mask a bad swing but it can help a shot hit by a bad swing. There are just a ton of players that consistently hit the ball thin, on the toe or consistently low without enough spin or for many just all over the face and they can all use the forgiving features any club can provide. There is a reason OEMs sell more GI and SGI irons with lighter weight graphite shafts than MB's with 120gm steel shafts and it isn't marketing.

... I would certainly never tell anyone on a golf forum that they were wrong because they say they play MB's better than Player Irons or any iron or club better than another. Same with shafts. I have seen 85 mph swing speeds hit x flex better than r flex but these are all exceptions. When OEM's do testing to fine tune a made for shaft they find that the majority of players need more torque, a softer tip and a lighter weight than the aftermarket shaft they are selling. I have no doubt that many more testers hit a made for Ventus Blue better the a true Ventus Blue because most need more spin, not less. Low spin and high launch is great for the better player but the average guy will do very poorly with low spin and mid to low launch that a real Ventus Blue produces. And fwiw, I mostly agree with you that " I still contend the amount of time you spend playing golf is the main key to playing well regardless of the hunk of metal you're holding on to." Unless you are playing clubs that do not fit your swing at all. But as long as you are in the ball park for clubs that fit your swing, it is always more about skill and practice than what club you are using. 

No worries Chisag. I took no offence at anything you posted. And I agree with much of what you say. I can only speak of my own experience so I hope I didn't come across a a know it all because that certainly wasn't my intention.

Ping G430 Driver, 19° Hybrid, Ping Anser 23° Hybrid, Mizuno 923 Hot Metal 6-GW, Ping 54°&58° Glides, Scotty Cameron 5.5

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I would add that it is just as important to factor in what makes you feel confident when you stand over them. I hurt my back a few years back, and my swing was a mess. Standing over my usual irons (that I loved and hit well for years), they suddenly looked like teaspoons and anything longer than an 8 iron filled me with dread. I got a set of used Callaway rogues after hitting a few GI irons at a local golf store, and they gave me back a bunch of confidence (even a pretty poor strike got the ball up and going). After a bit of physio, lots of stretching exercises and a lot of Advil, I got full range of movement back, and my speed came back. Suddenly, the Rogues were going up to the moon to the extent that my regular playing partners got stiff necks following the flight of a 5 iron (not always a good thing when playing by the sea). I went back to the more "player iron" look, and they launch and spin better and they don't scare me any more. If I hadn't switched to more help for a while, I might have quit.

Callaway Epic Flash SZ 9deg, 15 deg tensei av blue x flex

Cobra F9 hybrid 17deg, 24 deg

Mizuno MP20 (6,7,8 MMC, 9,PW MB)

Callaway MD4 50, 54, 58

Scotty Cameron Select Squareback 2

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There are no absolute rules in golf fitting other than that there are no rules.  As @chisagsaid I have seen guys with 118 MPH swings hit a R, S, and X flex roughly the same.  All shafts had similar weight and profile.  I have seen 88 MPH guys hit an X flex driver shaft the best.  As he said these are exceptions.

I cannot hit a long (heel to toe) or square toed iron head very well.  No matter if it is MB, players, GI, or SGI.  Long heel to toe means I hit it further on the toe.  This is just a fact for ME.  I also have a fairly steep swing with lowish launch and super high spin.  The P790 type heads and their ilk work very well for me.  VERY well.  I have a buddy that hits the ball roughly the same distance as I do and the P790's are absolute trash for him, he launches the ball super high and without a ton of spin.  I have seen him fly greens early in the morning with dew on the ground that lowered his spin even more and he was hurting.  He went back to a more traditional iron to get his spin back.

I went through the horrid of playing MP-14's and that players played MB irons and hacks played any kind of cavity.  I finally moved on from that and play whatever works, it is much sexier to collect money after a round than look good and give money out.  Now my goal with irons is to get in a launch, spin and dispersion window.  I stopped caring how my clubs look or how far they go versus my playing partners.  I like repeatable windows, and good gaps between my clubs.

Clubs in great standing

  • Driver - Callaway Epic Max LS - Rogue White 130 MSI TX
  • 3 Wood - Taylormade 300 Mini 13.5 - UST Mamiya Black 79X
  • 5 Wood - Taylormade Sim Max - HZRDOUS smoke black 6.5
  • Irons - Srixon ZX5 5 iron, Srixon ZX7 (6-9)  - Recoil 110 F5
  • Wedges - Cleveland 46, 50*, 54*, & 60* Zipcore mid bounce - Recoil 110 F5
  • Putter -  Mannkrafted MA/66 - UST Frequency Filter, LAB MEZZ.1  - BGT Stability

Clubs in good standing(fighting for one spot)....

  • 7 Wood - Company that shall not be named - UST Mamiya Black 79TX | Util - Callaway Apex X Forged UTIL 21* - AD-DI | Util - Srixon ZXU 18* -  Recoil 110 F5 | Util - Callaway UW 19* - HZRDOUS smoke black 6.5

Clubs that need a timeout/replacing

 

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