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2020 Driver center-of-gravity report ?


Carl Bunch

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2020 still not out yet, is MGS going to discontinue these reports ?

I feel these are extremely valuable reports, it's info that is not available anywhere else. Without it we just have to believe every manufacturer's marketing BS.

With these reports we can see WHY some drivers outperform or underperform, and it helps golfers make an informed decision.

I don't think I would have tried the 2016 Cobra King LTD Pro without seeing the MGS report showing it had the most MOI while keeping the COG right on the neutral axis.

I think these reports set MGS apart from every other site, because now everybody can test drivers with launch monitors to show launch data, but nobody else is actually measuring COG like MGS has been.

Edited by Carl Bunch
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There isn’t a lot of input from headquarters that filters down to the forums. The moderators do communicate some items back up but there is no guarantee that they will provide an answer.

My personal assessment based on what I see is that With COVID and with Tony focusing on Ball Lab I would lean toward probably not in 2020.

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9 hours ago, Carl Bunch said:

2020 still not out yet, is MGS going to discontinue these reports ?

I feel these are extremely valuable reports, it's info that is not available anywhere else. Without it we just have to believe every manufacturer's marketing BS.

With these reports we can see WHY some drivers outperform or underperform, and it helps golfers make an informed decision.

I don't think I would have tried the 2016 King LTD Pro without seeing the MGS report showing it had the most MOI while keeping the COG right on the neutral axis.

I think these reports set MGS apart from every other site, because now everybody can test drivers with launch monitors to show launch data, but nobody else is actually measuring COG like MGS has been.

I've been asking myself the same question? MGS CG reports have been historically released in maj/june (if I remember correctly) so with each passing month I am more and more worried that CG reports are the thing of the past. Real shame.

I hope MGS are waiting for the drivers that are scheduled to be released in fall, like Srixon and Titleist drivers, so that the database would be more complete. 

For the time being I suggest you take a quick peek at the following video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOHkZPKBdKA&t=810s

 

It is very basic CG and MOI breakdown of 2020 drivers but it is better than nothing.

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10 minutes ago, Calvo90 said:

I've been asking myself the same question? MGS CG reports have been historically released in maj/june (if I remember correctly) so with each passing month I am more and more worried that CG reports are the thing of the past. Real shame.

I hope MGS are waiting for the drivers that are scheduled to be released in fall, like Srixon and Titleist drivers, so that the database would be more complete. 

For the time being I suggest you take a quick peek at the following video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOHkZPKBdKA&t=810s

 

It is very basic CG and MOI breakdown of 2020 drivers but it is better than nothing.

There is a major pandemic going on.  Most of the normal activities at the testing center have been delayed well beyond their normal schedule.  

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5 hours ago, jlukes said:

There is a major pandemic going on.  Most of the normal activities at the testing center have been delayed well beyond their normal schedule.  

I recognize that currently there are definitely more important things to do, things get done a bit later than usual and health and well-being of the staff should be the priority. That being said, it is evident that the MGS is still running. The ball testing is being carried out, seemingly without a hitch. There are Most wanted testing results being regularly published which include detailed club measurements not to mention in-person testing which seems the most riskiest job for MGS out there. I doubt the testing of all the clubs was already finished in february or is done remotely.

I figured if MGS was able to carry out all the other tests and measurements, it is a bit strange there was no word about the CG and MOI report. It seems mapping drivers would be the most risk free, hence perfect option for the past months when there was really nothing much else or at least safer to do than being ''locked up'' in the lab (assuming MGS have all the necessary gear - I have never noticed remark that MGS hires other companies to do that).

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5 minutes ago, Calvo90 said:

I recognize that currently there are definitely more important things to do, things get done a bit later than usual and health and well-being of the staff should be the priority. That being said, it is evident that the MGS is still running. The ball testing is being carried out, seemingly without a hitch. There are Most wanted testing results being regularly published which include detailed club measurements not to mention in-person testing which seems the most riskiest job for MGS out there. I doubt the testing of all the clubs was already finished in february or is done remotely.

I figured if MGS was able to carry out all the other tests and measurements, it is a bit strange there was no word about the CG and MOI report. It seems mapping drivers would be the most risk free, hence perfect option for the past months when there was really nothing much else or at least safer to do than being ''locked up'' in the lab (assuming MGS have all the necessary gear - I have never noticed remark that MGS hires other companies to do that).

IMO the ball lab has much more value to the consumer over the the Driver CG report.  The amount of time Tony is dedicating to Ball Lab is astounding and the information it will provide consumers with is hugh

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2 hours ago, Calvo90 said:

I recognize that currently there are definitely more important things to do, things get done a bit later than usual and health and well-being of the staff should be the priority. That being said, it is evident that the MGS is still running. The ball testing is being carried out, seemingly without a hitch. There are Most wanted testing results being regularly published which include detailed club measurements not to mention in-person testing which seems the most riskiest job for MGS out there. I doubt the testing of all the clubs was already finished in february or is done remotely.

I figured if MGS was able to carry out all the other tests and measurements, it is a bit strange there was no word about the CG and MOI report. It seems mapping drivers would be the most risk free, hence perfect option for the past months when there was really nothing much else or at least safer to do than being ''locked up'' in the lab (assuming MGS have all the necessary gear - I have never noticed remark that MGS hires other companies to do that).

As one of the testers,  I can tell you we did not test clubs for months.  They are way behind in most wanted testing and I don't believe they will be able to complete all the clubs this year.  During the "shut down"  Tony was doing the ball lab and is the one who gets the clubs for all the detailed measurements;  it isn't done in Yorktown.  The Yorktown team switched to pandemic related testing:  nets, putting greens, etc.  

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I think MGS is on the right track with where their research time is going. The ball tests actually give me hope that we will start seeing more measurement comparisons of different equipment in the coming years. I kind of wish Maltby would publish more of the data the have on woods and drivers as I know they do some testing on them but probably not to the same level as their iron testing. I would like to see the driver COG reports but I feel like driver heads are more of a trial and error fitting process as the COG is more of a fitting tool as some golfers will require a more forward or more rearward COG depending on their swing characteristics.

What I am most curious to see is how many drivers actually have their COG directly in the middle of the face or where they have it marked. I feel that could be a big factor in regards to performance but I don't know if it is a good or bad thing without context. I think MOI on drivers is largely irrelevant as the MOI on every driver is very high relative to any other club in the bag. I think it would be neat if they did COR testing on drivers to see which driver actually has the hottest face. I imagine most would be close to the 0.83 limit but it would be interesting how close they all are. 

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Agreed!

IMO the ball lab has much more value to the consumer over the the Driver CG report.  The amount of time Tony is dedicating to Ball Lab is astounding and the information it will provide consumers with is hugh


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On 9/17/2020 at 1:38 PM, Kansas King said:

"What I am most curious to see is how many drivers actually have their COG directly in the middle of the face or where they have it marked. I feel that could be a big factor in regards to performance but I don't know if it is a good or bad thing without context."

 

The MGS COG reports DO show where the COG is in relation to the face.

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14 hours ago, Carl Bunch said:

 

The MGS COG reports DO show where the COG is in relation to the face.

I think what I meant to say was how the club is marked relative to where the COG is. This is something that can't be easily measured because the markings on the top of drivers and woods are placed where they look correct when you are in your stance behind the ball. This is a tedious area in the world of club design is making things look right behind the ball. If you make a driver perfectly square with everything lining up perfectly, you would be left with an unappealing looking club at address. You would assume most companies get the sight lines at address to line up properly with the COG but it wouldn't surprise me if there were a few that disregarded it in favor of better look or didn't put enough effort behind it. The tough part is reliably measuring it which I don't think can be done. I think what MGS is doing is about as much as they can. 

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  • 2 months later...
3 minutes ago, Carl Bunch said:

Anybody hear/read anything about a possible 2020 COG report ?

I’m just guessing but I bet you don’t see anything until things become somewhat normal again. The Most Wanted and Ball testing are far more popular IMO.

The COG of drivers could be different from head to head due to tolerances and makes the test fairly useless tbh. 

 

 

 

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28 minutes ago, Carl Bunch said:

Anybody hear/read anything about a possible 2020 COG report ?

My guess is that it won't happen.  Tony is focused on ball lab and I believe he is the one who did/coordinated the measurements.  Headquarters is doing the past 5 winner test and then looking to get 2021 testing started.  

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15 hours ago, Carl Bunch said:

Anybody hear/read anything about a possible 2020 COG report ?

 

3 hours ago, 03trdblack said:

No, they'd rather spend the time testing 4 golf tees... 🙄🙄

Again, the pandemic changed everything this year in case you didn’t notice. If you have a better source of FREE unbiased data on everything golf, you should turn to them. From an OP who’s not even a donor complaining, really? MGS is a most welcome resource, I’m grateful for whatever they offer. And the tee report was useful to some.

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8 minutes ago, Middler said:

 

Again, the pandemic changed everything this year in case you didn’t notice. If you have a better source of FREE unbiased data on everything golf, you should turn to them. Two readers who aren’t even donors complaining, really? MGS is a most welcome resource, I’m grateful for whatever they offer. And the tee report was useful to some.

I'd check your facts again @Middler. I've been a donor since I joined in 2010...7 years before you even joined. I've been here since the beginning and have watched MGS become what it is today. Just because I don't agree with something that is being done doesn't mean that I don't agree with everything. 

I think the tee test was a complete waste of time and think the center of gravity report is a better source of data. Everyone knows that a stupid tee isn't going to make any difference in performance, it's just common sense. Nothing wrong with this opinion. 

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26 minutes ago, 03trdblack said:

No, they'd rather spend the time testing 4 golf tees... 🙄🙄

 

3 minutes ago, 03trdblack said:

I think the tee test was a complete waste of time and think the center of gravity report is a better source of data. Everyone knows that a stupid tee isn't going to make any difference in performance, it's just common sense. Nothing wrong with this opinion. 

Those lab tests are done at Headquarters and they have never done the CoG report.   For you it may be a waste of time, just like the CoG report is a waste of time for others.  As I mentioned above,  I am pretty sure Tony does the CoG testing and he is doing ball lab at this point in time. 

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Wedge:  :titleist-small: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite
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3 hours ago, 03trdblack said:

I'd check your facts again @Middler. I've been a donor since I joined in 2010...7 years before you even joined. I've been here since the beginning and have watched MGS become what it is today. Just because I don't agree with something that is being done doesn't mean that I don't agree with everything. 

I think the tee test was a complete waste of time and think the center of gravity report is a better source of data. Everyone knows that a stupid tee isn't going to make any difference in performance, it's just common sense. Nothing wrong with this opinion. 

Apologies, the OP doesn’t appear to be a donor. I still think MGS does a great job of providing objective information on all things golf, there’s nothing else like it I know of. It’s a given not every story is going to appeal to every reader, and we’re not obligated to pay anything for the privilege. It’s one thing to complain about a service you’ve paid for, another for a service that’s “free” IMO. In the midst of a horrible pandemic year, we should be even more understanding IMO. I doubt they invested much time in the presumably somewhat tongue in cheek “tee study” and it’s not as if the tee study and a driver CoG report would have been equivalent efforts. YMMV

There are a couple guys I play with regularly who use and swear by the Martini tee. I know they’re deluded, so it was nice to see a third party test. I hope they read it.

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5 hours ago, Middler said:

 I doubt they invested much time in the presumably somewhat tongue in cheek “tee study” and it’s not as if the tee study and a driver CoG report would have been equivalent efforts. YMMV

Not sure what you consider to be much time,  but I would guess staff time was 50+ hours plus 1-2 hours per tester.  

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                :titelist-small: 915H  24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype        
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :titleist-small: 54/12D, 60/8M w/:Accra iWedge 90 Graphite
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  • 4 weeks later...
On 11/28/2020 at 8:36 PM, blackngold_blood said:

I’m just guessing but I bet you don’t see anything until things become somewhat normal again. The Most Wanted and Ball testing are far more popular IMO.

The COG of drivers could be different from head to head due to tolerances and makes the test fairly useless tbh. 

The tolerances are why the dots are larger, to account for the variability from head to head.

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1 hour ago, mattschaefer16 said:

The tolerances are why the dots are larger, to account for the variability from head to head.

The dots are bigger due to MGS tolerances in measuring. They are not for Manufacturer tolerances. Also if you take the 2019 test and click on the Cobra F9 for example. It shows 2 dots, one for heavy front and one for heavy back. That is great. However keep in mind there are oem tolerances as well as lofts differences that will make those dots different.  Also remember your 9* head could be anywhere from 7-11* and the lie could also be different. 

To the others disappointed with no test

MGS can't possibly test every club in every loft from every oem and even if they could there are Manufacturer tolerances that come into play. 

If COG matters to you then have your FITTED head measured. With the ability to manipulate the cog with moveable weights and hotmelt, a standardized test doesn't make sense to ME there are just too many variables. 

To each their own though

 

 

 

What is in my Sun Mountain C-130 bag or Jones MyGolfSpy bag

Driver:    :cobra-small: Dark speed LS 8* set to -1.5* with an Attas Daaas 4x shaft @ 45”

Fairway: :srixon-small: F85 3 wood with a XPhplexx Agera X @ 42.5”

 :srixon-small: F85 5 wood with a UST Elements Chrome 7F5 @ 41.5"

Driving Iron: :ping-small: Rapture 2-Iron 

Irons: :edel-golf-1: SMS Pros 4-PW with Steelfiber I95s 

Wedges: :edel-golf-1: SMS 50* T grind with Steelfiber i110s

               :ping-small: Glide 4.0 46* zz wedge shaft

               :ping-small: Glide 4.0 E grind 54* zz wedge shaft

Putters: :L.A.B.: Mezz.1 34” 69* lie

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9 hours ago, blackngold_blood said:

The dots are bigger due to MGS tolerances in measuring. They are not for Manufacturer tolerances. Also if you take the 2019 test and click on the Cobra F9 for example. It shows 2 dots, one for heavy front and one for heavy back. That is great. However keep in mind there are oem tolerances as well as lofts differences that will make those dots different.  Also remember your 9* head could be anywhere from 7-11* and the lie could also be different. 

To the others disappointed with no test

MGS can't possibly test every club in every loft from every oem and even if they could there are Manufacturer tolerances that come into play. 

If COG matters to you then have your FITTED head measured. With the ability to manipulate the cog with moveable weights and hotmelt, a standardized test doesn't make sense to ME there are just too many variables. 

To each their own though

Ok I re-read it, it does measurement tolerances.  And while it's true that there will also be manufacturing tolerances, to say the report is "useless" is, I think, extreme.

Sure, like you said loft for example will change things, but having a baseline to start with is extremely useful.

For example I'm shopping for a used driver for my dad (can't afford new), and without a shop having every driver from the last 5 years to go through and test, since I know his swing and his flight tendencies, having the CG and MOI reports from MGS gives me a good idea of what may be more likely to work for him and will is likely not.

It at least gives me a way to kind of narrow the list down to what sooner good candidates might be.

Edited by mattschaefer16

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Hybrids: Callaway X2 Hot 3, 4H

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9 hours ago, mattschaefer16 said:

Ok I re-read it, it does measurement tolerances.  And while it's true that there will also be manufacturing tolerances, to say the report is "useless" is, I think, extreme.

Sure, like you said loft for example will change things, but having a baseline to start with is extremely useful.

For example I'm shopping for a used driver for my dad (can't afford new), and without a shop having every driver from the last 5 years to go through and test, since I know his swing and his flight tendencies, having the CG and MOI reports from MGS gives me a good idea of what may be more likely to work for him and will is likely not.

It at least gives me a way to kind of narrow the list down to what sooner good candidates might be.

Useless may have been the wrong word but the premise still stands. 

Take your example. Unless you measure the heads you are looking at as well as his old one, tolerances can make your starting point less than ideal. OEMs already give you a guestimate on where the cog is with descriptions of the club.  Low spin=forward, high launch=lower, and higher moi=back. That will get you a similar starting point if your not going to measure or hit every head. 

With OEM tolerances and the ability to manipulate the cog and moi with moveable weights and hotmelt, having the cog and moi of ONE head isn't all that important imo. 

 

 

 

What is in my Sun Mountain C-130 bag or Jones MyGolfSpy bag

Driver:    :cobra-small: Dark speed LS 8* set to -1.5* with an Attas Daaas 4x shaft @ 45”

Fairway: :srixon-small: F85 3 wood with a XPhplexx Agera X @ 42.5”

 :srixon-small: F85 5 wood with a UST Elements Chrome 7F5 @ 41.5"

Driving Iron: :ping-small: Rapture 2-Iron 

Irons: :edel-golf-1: SMS Pros 4-PW with Steelfiber I95s 

Wedges: :edel-golf-1: SMS 50* T grind with Steelfiber i110s

               :ping-small: Glide 4.0 46* zz wedge shaft

               :ping-small: Glide 4.0 E grind 54* zz wedge shaft

Putters: :L.A.B.: Mezz.1 34” 69* lie

              :EVNROLL: EV5.1 black 33.5” 69* lie

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47 minutes ago, blackngold_blood said:

Useless may have been the wrong word but the premise still stands. 

Take your example. Unless you measure the heads you are looking at as well as his old one, tolerances can make your starting point less than ideal. OEMs already give you a guestimate on where the cog is with descriptions of the club.  Low spin=forward, high launch=lower, and higher moi=back. That will get you a similar starting point if your not going to measure or hit every head. 

With OEM tolerances and the ability to manipulate the cog and moi with moveable weights and hotmelt, having the cog and moi of ONE head isn't all that important imo. 

His existing driver is a 1998 Callaway Big Bertha War Bird that her bought used off the rack, not fitted. 

MGS INCLUDES the CGs with the movable weights in various positions (ex. Epic Flash in Draw, Neutral, or Fade).

As far as hot melt of course it doesn't include hot melt, it gives you a baseline to get an idea where you're starting from.

As far as mfg. tolerances yeah it's not perfect.  But neither are the Most Wanted Driver/Iron tests.  They don't tell you whether one of the testers had a pronounced outside in swing or inside out, so you can see how the tester that is closest to you tested, they don't test every single iron on the market, etc.  Does that make the data useless?  No of course not, you take the very good data and do with it what you will.

YOU might not care for the CG report but I think it's fantastic even if not 100% perfect.

 

 

Man of Christ first, husband, dad, golfer (obv), bass player, and STL sports nut.  Romans 12

Driver: Callaway Razr Fit

FW: Callaway Razr X Black 4W

Hybrids: Callaway X2 Hot 3, 4H

Irons: Callaway Razr X 5-AW

Wedges: Callaway Mack Daddy 2 54, 58

Putter: Ping Mid Ketsch Heavy

Ball: Snell MTB Black

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49 minutes ago, blackngold_blood said:

Useless may have been the wrong word but the premise still stands. 

Take your example. Unless you measure the heads you are looking at as well as his old one, tolerances can make your starting point less than ideal. OEMs already give you a guestimate on where the cog is with descriptions of the club.  Low spin=forward, high launch=lower, and higher moi=back. That will get you a similar starting point if your not going to measure or hit every head. 

With OEM tolerances and the ability to manipulate the cog and moi with moveable weights and hotmelt, having the cog and moi of ONE head isn't all that important imo. 

The problem with that approach is that qualitative descriptors like “low” and “high” are not consistently defined across OEMs so if anything that is less useful than a quantitative, objective comparison by a 3rd party (even with OEM tolerances). No content from this site (or any for that matter) should be used as the gospel, simply as an aid to potentially narrow down the ever growing number of choices.

With that said, the range of CG in reality is quite small so the differences will have a negligible effect on performance for most golfers (hence the reason I feel MWT is of little benefit as it generally involves too little weight moving too little distance to have a noticeable impact on CG). I personally find the MOI measurements of this report to be more useful even though most heads are at the point of diminishing returns.

:titelist-small:  TS2 9.5

:titelist-small:  909F2 15.5

:titelist-small:  690.CB 3-PW

:titelist-small:  Vokey SM5 50, 56

image.png.e50b7e7a9b18feff4720d7b223a2013d.png   Works Versa 1W

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1 hour ago, mattschaefer16 said:

His existing driver is a 1998 Callaway Big Bertha War Bird that her bought used off the rack, not fitted. 

MGS INCLUDES the CGs with the movable weights in various positions (ex. Epic Flash in Draw, Neutral, or Fade).

As far as hot melt of course it doesn't include hot melt, it gives you a baseline to get an idea where you're starting from.

As far as mfg. tolerances yeah it's not perfect.  But neither are the Most Wanted Driver/Iron tests.  They don't tell you whether one of the testers had a pronounced outside in swing or inside out, so you can see how the tester that is closest to you tested, they don't test every single iron on the market, etc.  Does that make the data useless?  No of course not, you take the very good data and do with it what you will.

YOU might not care for the CG report but I think it's fantastic even if not 100% perfect.

 

 

We will just have to agree to disagree on this one. 

As I said useless was the wrong word but again this test doesn't give you a starting point. 

Do you know the cog of the 98 warbird?  If not then you are missing your "starting point". On top of that you say you know his swing. Well you know his swing with the warbird. Not any other recent club that in no way what so ever resembles that club. His swing could change completely with a larger newer club. Even if you want to purchase used, go find a place to hit as many as you can. That will do more for him than any test done by someone that isnt him. 

I'm just gonna bow out. Have a wonderful holiday season. 

 

 

 

What is in my Sun Mountain C-130 bag or Jones MyGolfSpy bag

Driver:    :cobra-small: Dark speed LS 8* set to -1.5* with an Attas Daaas 4x shaft @ 45”

Fairway: :srixon-small: F85 3 wood with a XPhplexx Agera X @ 42.5”

 :srixon-small: F85 5 wood with a UST Elements Chrome 7F5 @ 41.5"

Driving Iron: :ping-small: Rapture 2-Iron 

Irons: :edel-golf-1: SMS Pros 4-PW with Steelfiber I95s 

Wedges: :edel-golf-1: SMS 50* T grind with Steelfiber i110s

               :ping-small: Glide 4.0 46* zz wedge shaft

               :ping-small: Glide 4.0 E grind 54* zz wedge shaft

Putters: :L.A.B.: Mezz.1 34” 69* lie

              :EVNROLL: EV5.1 black 33.5” 69* lie

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1 hour ago, storm319 said:

No content from this site (or any for that matter) should be used as the gospel, simply as an aid to potentially narrow down the ever growing number of choices.

I absolutely agree with you here.  

My main point for this topic is that if you don't know the cog (as well as all other measurements) of what you hit well/currently, the numbers your looking for with this test don't mean a whole lot. 

 

Have a wonderful holiday season. 

 

 

 

What is in my Sun Mountain C-130 bag or Jones MyGolfSpy bag

Driver:    :cobra-small: Dark speed LS 8* set to -1.5* with an Attas Daaas 4x shaft @ 45”

Fairway: :srixon-small: F85 3 wood with a XPhplexx Agera X @ 42.5”

 :srixon-small: F85 5 wood with a UST Elements Chrome 7F5 @ 41.5"

Driving Iron: :ping-small: Rapture 2-Iron 

Irons: :edel-golf-1: SMS Pros 4-PW with Steelfiber I95s 

Wedges: :edel-golf-1: SMS 50* T grind with Steelfiber i110s

               :ping-small: Glide 4.0 46* zz wedge shaft

               :ping-small: Glide 4.0 E grind 54* zz wedge shaft

Putters: :L.A.B.: Mezz.1 34” 69* lie

              :EVNROLL: EV5.1 black 33.5” 69* lie

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1 hour ago, storm319 said:

No content from this site (or any for that matter) should be used as the gospel, simply as an aid to potentially narrow down the ever growing number of choices.

I guess this is the point we will all agree on LOL.  Really that's all I want to be able to use it for.

Blessings to you both and have a wonderful season! 🙏@storm319@blackngold_blood

Man of Christ first, husband, dad, golfer (obv), bass player, and STL sports nut.  Romans 12

Driver: Callaway Razr Fit

FW: Callaway Razr X Black 4W

Hybrids: Callaway X2 Hot 3, 4H

Irons: Callaway Razr X 5-AW

Wedges: Callaway Mack Daddy 2 54, 58

Putter: Ping Mid Ketsch Heavy

Ball: Snell MTB Black

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  • 3 weeks later...

And here is a perfect example of the why the MGS center-of-gravity reports are important:

The new PXG 0211 driver claims to have a COG of 5200 with cog 1mm below the neutral axis. (Jan 7 MGS new release)

But if you view the 5 years (2015-2019) of MGS COG data, you can plainly see that 5200MOI and 1mm below the neutral axis is in impossible territory. It would require weight below the surface of the ground !

PXG is flat out lying about their latest driver and Tony Covey is letting them do it on MGS.

Tony Covey might as well start accepting advertising $$ from manufacturers, because if he's just going to repeat their marketing lies to us, then he's basically advertising for them for free !

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