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Getoffmylawn's Need for Speed & Lower Scores


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21 minutes ago, BMart519 said:


Have you looked in to TRT? 🤣 I heard some guys swear by it at the gym yesterday 

That's hilarious...I just ordered a 3-month supply of a testosterone boosting supplement.  🤣

No stone unturned my friend...

And I get what you're saying from an expectations standpoint.  I do think my recovery practices haven't been great of late so there is still some room for gains, but, point taken.  Half the fun is the process though, you know?

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After knocking out my 3 max driver swings for the off-speed challenge, I knocked out my Stack Progress Check this morning.  My "full" tempo driver is up to 110 from 108 at my last check, so I'll take it.  What I'm not sure about is the app's recommendation for my next training program...Full Speed Spectrum.  It would be my third time in a row, so I'm actually thinking about Foundations (again) or stepping down to Neural Drive if only for the variety of it.  

That said, the app says the recommendations are rank ordered based on greatest probability of increasing speeds, so perhaps I should follow the Full Speed Spectrum recommendation rather than think I'm smarter than the app.  The thing is, the Neural Drive description says its for individuals who feel their speeds are not commensurate with their strength levels, which I feel fits me to a tee.

I'm also not sure when exactly to start training.  The app says wait 2-5 days, but I'm honestly wondering if I shouldn't focus on some rest & recovery, do a Cruiser workout once a week through December, and then hit Neural Drive starting in January.  Part of that is knowing the Grit score will take a hit come Christmas and New Year's time.

What to do, what to do...?

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2 hours ago, Getoffmylawn said:

What to do, what to do...?

Natural answer is to buy a new driver and reap the expected ball speed gains.

I forget - you don't have an easy way to hit balls in the offseason, correct? I'm wondering if just having an all out speed session while hitting balls with the driver might help break your plateau. I'm talking like 100+ swings. 

Unofficial WHS Handicap: 6.7 / Anti-Cap: 12.8 (Last Updated Oct. 13, 2022)

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... Played with an instructor at Legacy GC here in Phoenix a week ago and he gave me some simple advice after playing 18 with him. If I wanted more distance, I needed to swing faster. DUH! 🤣 But he went on to explain I have a very smooth swing that works well with every club in my bag but I am leaving distance on the tee with my driver. "You have swung the same way for so many years, your body/brain thinks it is swinging at max speed. Kinda like a self imposed governor. So you need to over ride the self imposed limit and just start swinging faster". I explained I tried Speed Training and it wreaked my tempo and he said at my age that program was too extreme for someone with a repeatable swing and a consistent tempo after years of swinging the same way. Just force myself to take faster practice swings and try and duplicate those faster practice swings with my real swing. 

... The advantage is the hopeful speed increase will be incremental as I slowly break my body/brain of it's governor. By attempting to just swing faster, I will always be potentially increasing my speed til I get to a point of losing control and missing the center. I would love to add about 5 mph after a couple months. As I said in my Tips, accuracy trumps distance every time, but if you can increase your distance while maintaining your accuracy that is a great goal.  So far I have gained some yards and feel myself breaking my self imposed barriers. 

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41 minutes ago, chisag said:

... Played with an instructor at Legacy GC here in Phoenix a week ago and he gave me some simple advice after playing 18 with him. If I wanted more distance, I needed to swing faster. DUH! 🤣 But he went on to explain I have a very smooth swing that works well with every club in my bag but I am leaving distance on the tee with my driver. "You have swung the same way for so many years, your body/brain thinks it is swinging at max speed. Kinda like a self imposed governor. So you need to over ride the self imposed limit and just start swinging faster". I explained I tried Speed Training and it wreaked my tempo and he said at my age that program was too extreme for someone with a repeatable swing and a consistent tempo after years of swinging the same way. Just force myself to take faster practice swings and try and duplicate those faster practice swings with my real swing. 

... The advantage is the hopeful speed increase will be incremental as I slowly break my body/brain of it's governor. By attempting to just swing faster, I will always be potentially increasing my speed til I get to a point of losing control and missing the center. I would love to add about 5 mph after a couple months. As I said in my Tips, accuracy trumps distance every time, but if you can increase your distance while maintaining your accuracy that is a great goal.  So far I have gained some yards and feel myself breaking my self imposed barriers. 

I think that all of the speed training that I have done over the past 30 or so years (since I started competing in long drive competitions) has permanently wrecked any kind of a decent swing tempo and rhythm that I had. What I definitely know is that my USGA Handicap Index is almost exactly a full 10 strokes higher today than it was from 1991 through at least 1996.

 

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13 minutes ago, funkyjudge said:

I think that all of the speed training that I have done over the past 30 or so years (since I started competing in long drive competitions) has permanently wrecked any kind of a decent swing tempo and rhythm that I had. What I definitely know is that my USGA Handicap Index is almost exactly a full 10 strokes higher today than it was from 1991 through at least 1996.

 

... As we have seen with even guys on tour, chasing distance for the sake of distance is a fools errand. Of course all us golfers are fools to some degree 🤪. But if you can add a little distance because you never maximized that part of your game, I think it is a worthwhile goal as long as it is under control and doesn't interfere with your tempo. Maybe 1/2 club longer with irons and another 5-10yds with driver is doable for most past their 20/30s. But I think trying to add 20+ yds is a problem waiting to happen. 

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13 hours ago, Getoffmylawn said:

What to do, what to do...?

I had a similar question recently, too. For what it’s worth, I was convinced that I needed to work on my lousy ability to swing anything over 200g, so I chose Heavy Hitter, even though it was third ranked. It turned out ok,  but it was frustrating, and I didn’t actually gain that much on the heavy side of 195g,  but I didn’t lose anything either, and made some incremental gains. “Sometimes maybe good, sometimes maybe sh..”

I’ve been stuck at 200mph for so long I’m starting to think that I need to gain weight to gain speed, but I’m reluctant. Im back to FSS, and still thinking that it might be good to go back and forth. I’m so bad at the step swings that want to keep my feet on the ground again. 
 

All that is to say, maybe it’s good to see what Neural drive is all about. Or select a few custom workouts before deciding a new plan. 

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On 12/2/2022 at 7:43 AM, Getoffmylawn said:

After knocking out my 3 max driver swings for the off-speed challenge, I knocked out my Stack Progress Check this morning.  My "full" tempo driver is up to 110 from 108 at my last check, so I'll take it.  What I'm not sure about is the app's recommendation for my next training program...Full Speed Spectrum.  It would be my third time in a row, so I'm actually thinking about Foundations (again) or stepping down to Neural Drive if only for the variety of it.  

That said, the app says the recommendations are rank ordered based on greatest probability of increasing speeds, so perhaps I should follow the Full Speed Spectrum recommendation rather than think I'm smarter than the app.  The thing is, the Neural Drive description says its for individuals who feel their speeds are not commensurate with their strength levels, which I feel fits me to a tee.

I'm also not sure when exactly to start training.  The app says wait 2-5 days, but I'm honestly wondering if I shouldn't focus on some rest & recovery, do a Cruiser workout once a week through December, and then hit Neural Drive starting in January.  Part of that is knowing the Grit score will take a hit come Christmas and New Year's time.

What to do, what to do...?

Take a look at the graphs in the app that break speeds down by weight. I felt the same way as you and did Neural Drive after my first time through Foundations. I didn't gain any speed through the program. Through Full Speed Spectrum I felt I was struggling with the heavier weights more and was considering Heavy Hitter. Then I checked all the data and you could draw a straight line from the lightest weight through to the heaviest weights so I gave up on Heavy Hitter. Fortunately, the 195g driver speed is a bit above that trend line but I am sure that is due to it being used every session and often for multiple sets so you ensure it is being hit on your "fast" days. Foundation was the only program where I gained speed, but it was also my first program with the Stack. Full Speed Spectrum had me losing speed, put I also stopped the program for about 2 months in the middle. The only thing I don't like is Full Speed Spectrum is so long with 24 sessions, it takes 2 months or more to complete whereas all the others are 18. 

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In the spirit of the "Lower Scores" portion of this thread:  I'm seriously considering using my offseason to get comfortable with it on my basement putting green, and going all in on making the switch to heads up putting.  

I should maybe be a little more scientific about it, but my make rate when practicing in the basement climbs substantially when I go to it.  And, the logic of it really resonates with me.  I mean, think about it...imagine watching a basketball game and every shooter at the free throw line was looking at the ball rather than the rim.  Crazy right?

Seems to me that making putting more reactionary and athletic is a good thing.

Any thoughts?  Fools errand or good idea?

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Hybrids:  :callaway-small: Apex Pro 3 & 4H, :Fuji:Ventus Blue 8 S, 80g Stiff

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2 hours ago, Getoffmylawn said:

 I mean, think about it...imagine watching a basketball game and every shooter at the free throw line was looking at the ball rather than the rim.  Crazy right?

Seems to me that making putting more reactionary and athletic is a good thing.

Any thoughts?  Fools errand or good idea?

 

... OK, a few thoughts since you asked. In the minus column, a Free Throw has the ball in direct contact with your hands. A putt happens at the end of a 33-35" stick that your hands touch. Huge difference. Making solid contact is essential to great putting and I have to think there will be miss hits looking at the hole. In the positive column I am a firm believer in confidence and whatever works. If you have been unhappy with your putting "normally" and heads up gives you confidence, it is certainly worth trying. 

... I would also add those that make a living with a putter in their hands, rarely resort to heads up and even then it is because they have been struggling. If it were a viable way of putting, more would be doing it. Your goal is to help the ball go where you want it to go with the speed you want it to travel. The best way to do that is looking at it. But again, I am all for trying things to see if they work for you. The only downside I see is practicing all winter in the basement and then finding out slope, green speed, wind and the fact that every putt counts on the course, ends up producing worse results. Up side is it works! 

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58 minutes ago, Getoffmylawn said:

In the spirit of the "Lower Scores" portion of this thread:  I'm seriously considering using my offseason to get comfortable with it on my basement putting green, and going all in on making the switch to heads up putting.  

I should maybe be a little more scientific about it, but my make rate when practicing in the basement climbs substantially when I go to it.  And, the logic of it really resonates with me.  I mean, think about it...imagine watching a basketball game and every shooter at the free throw line was looking at the ball rather than the rim.  Crazy right?

Seems to me that making putting more reactionary and athletic is a good thing.

Any thoughts?  Fools errand or good idea?

It's not for everyone, but it works for me.  I've been using heads up putting for 8 years.  Maybe it works because I was a lousy putter before I tried it, and any change would have been good... IDK.  The upside is that I have good speed control, if I play the same course all the time... which I do mostly.  When I travel to another course, I need considerable time to adjust my "calibration".  Having good speed control, I get more putts to the hole and rarely 3-putt.  I am not a "die-in-the-hole" putter; except for long-ish putts, I leave the ball behind the hole.

Most misses are do to green reading and not poor strikes.  I do have to align the ball to my target line and I have an alignment line on my putter.  I use two alignments; I mark my ball with a "T" where the stem is the normal ball alignment line and add another line perpendicular to the alignment line.  The line on my putter is aligned with the ball alignment line, and the putter face is square with the top of the T.  Now I know that when I strike the ball, it's going on my intended line.  Contrary to what many think about mishits, they don't happen very often if you have a very repeatable stroke.  I work on that all the time.  They do happen, but it's typically such a short stroke that it's not a concern for me.  I had many more mishits when I looked at the ball because I had a tendency to move my head early.  

It takes quite awhile to "get used to" not looking at the ball, which is why people trying heads up quit early because they don't commit to it.  It's one thing to try it in your basement or on the putting green with short putts; I could still see my ball out of the corner of my eye, but I didn't feel comfortable on putts over 8 feet for maybe a month or so.  I will say that if you commit to heads up putting and do it as long as I have, you will find it just as difficult to go back to looking at the ball.  I tried it once; spent a month only looking at the ball.  Felt weird, and the summary of my results... I left many putts short that I always got to the hole.  

If you are going to give this a try, best of luck!!  

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13 hours ago, Getoffmylawn said:

In the spirit of the "Lower Scores" portion of this thread:  I'm seriously considering using my offseason to get comfortable with it on my basement putting green, and going all in on making the switch to heads up putting.  

I should maybe be a little more scientific about it, but my make rate when practicing in the basement climbs substantially when I go to it.  And, the logic of it really resonates with me.  I mean, think about it...imagine watching a basketball game and every shooter at the free throw line was looking at the ball rather than the rim.  Crazy right?

Seems to me that making putting more reactionary and athletic is a good thing.

Any thoughts?  Fools errand or good idea?

I thrived it for a season. Then really focused on putting mechanics and using a gate. Turned out I was pulling my putter through and striking the gate with the heel every time I did heads up. I am abandoning it this year at least for puts out side of 8-10 ft. Closer I don’t take that big of stroke so I hit it better. Good luck on your journey. 

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1 hour ago, Vegan_Golfer_PNW said:

I thrived it for a season. Then really focused on putting mechanics and using a gate. Turned out I was pulling my putter through and striking the gate with the heel every time I did heads up. I am abandoning it this year at least for puts out side of 8-10 ft. Closer I don’t take that big of stroke so I hit it better. Good luck on your journey. 

That is One of the things that you have to take into consideration when doing heads up putting.  How you turn your head influences setup and typically opens the shoulders which can cause the player to start a little out to in with the path and a little coaling of the face.  Kind of forces you to be right side dominant with the stroke.  

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2 hours ago, cnosil said:

That is One of the things that you have to take into consideration when doing heads up putting.  How you turn your head influences setup and typically opens the shoulders which can cause the player to start a little out to in with the path and a little coaling of the face.  Kind of forces you to be right side dominant with the stroke.  

Yep!  It does take practice to keep the putter on line through the stroke.  I don't have an issue with turning my head and shoulders together.  My tendency is to rotate my hips.  I work on that... and yes, I am very right side dominant with the stroke.  Before every round I set up with 4-6 footers and putt with right hand only; I put my left hand on my left hip to feel if I'm keeping my lower body still.  

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Finally got into Phase 2 of Neural Drive and got the Max Swings I've been waiting for...

ND3.PNG.0725797dac0f1ae2cf4bf333543e3e85.PNG

My performance on my 195 swings was disappointing, but I chalk that up to a slick grip and gloves.  I've sent the training stick across the room once before, and I'm terrified to do that again.  Once I sensed a less than optimal grip I started choking the life out of it, which of course slowed me down a bit.  Back at it Friday morning, with a new glove. And, I intend to re-grip the training club with my gamer driver grip next week too.(The Stack website FAQs take no issue with re-gripping to a different grip.)

 

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Hybrids:  :callaway-small: Apex Pro 3 & 4H, :Fuji:Ventus Blue 8 S, 80g Stiff

Iron: :mizuno-small:JPX 919 Forged 5-GW, Aerotech Steelfiber i95 Stiff

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On 12/12/2022 at 9:51 PM, chisag said:

 

... OK, a few thoughts since you asked. In the minus column, a Free Throw has the ball in direct contact with your hands. A putt happens at the end of a 33-35" stick that your hands touch. Huge difference. Making solid contact is essential to great putting and I have to think there will be miss hits looking at the hole. In the positive column I am a firm believer in confidence and whatever works. If you have been unhappy with your putting "normally" and heads up gives you confidence, it is certainly worth trying. 

... I would also add those that make a living with a putter in their hands, rarely resort to heads up and even then it is because they have been struggling. If it were a viable way of putting, more would be doing it. Your goal is to help the ball go where you want it to go with the speed you want it to travel. The best way to do that is looking at it. But again, I am all for trying things to see if they work for you. The only downside I see is practicing all winter in the basement and then finding out slope, green speed, wind and the fact that every putt counts on the course, ends up producing worse results. Up side is it works! 

Much of what you're saying makes sense, although I'd argue that looking at the target rather than the ball, or implement you're using, is still a valid analogy. Archer's don't focus on the arrow, good billiard players don't focus on the cue ball, etc.

Honestly, (as you pointed out) that this technique hasn't taken hold professionally to any great degree resonates with me.  What I've noticed is that if I putt in a Cam Smith-manner of taking a long protracted look at the hole, and then pull the trigger very quickly after coming back to the ball, I putt much better and with better speed control than if I allow myself to get slow and deliberate. (I also don't actually look at the ball now, more of Stockton-like focus on a spot 2-3 inches in front of the ball on my start line.)

What I'l likely do is take a solid month of experimenting in my basement and the local practice green weather-permitting, and try and track my putting performance in those sessions, and then make a decision and commit to it.

Driver: :titleist-small: TSR2, :Fuji:Ventus Blue 6 S, 65g Stiff

FW: :titleist-small: TSR2 3w, 15,  :Fuji:Ventus Blue 7 S, 70g Stiff

Hybrids:  :callaway-small: Apex Pro 3 & 4H, :Fuji:Ventus Blue 8 S, 80g Stiff

Iron: :mizuno-small:JPX 919 Forged 5-GW, Aerotech Steelfiber i95 Stiff

Wedges: :vokey-small:SM9 54 S Grind bent to 55, 60 M Grind bent to 59, Aerotech Steelfiber i110 Stiff

Putter: :odyssey-small: White Hot OG Double Wide, Stroke Lab shaft

Ball: :titelist-small: Pro V1

Click here for my HONMA TR20 Official Review!

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33 minutes ago, Getoffmylawn said:

I'd argue that looking at the target rather than the ball, or implement you're using, is still a valid analogy. Archer's don't focus on the arrow, good billiard players don't focus on the cue ball, etc.

 

...  As you said most sports are target oriented, but I would compare golf closer to baseball because you are hitting a ball at the end of a stick. Granted a baseball isn't stationary but try hitting a baseball by looking where you are aiming, even on a practice batting tee. 

... Repeating myself I think if YOU  think it will work it is always worth a try. Especially if you have been struggling with conventional putting. We have seen quite a few strange putting techniques that work for that golfer, even on tour. Sneed, Zalatoris, Kutcher, Scott and Langer come to mind. Looking forward to hearing how it works out for you. 

... Like most that play this game, I have made way too many changes in my golf swing through the years, mostly to compensate for my back surgeries but also to add speed or develop a fade among other ill advised changes. But I have never changed my putting stroke and it is the cornerstone of my game. I truly love putting. Not to get callouses patting myself on the back, but I played with a Tour caddie for 15 years last week and he commented I had a better putting stroke than many he saw on tour. I jokingly asked...  the rest of my game wouldn't make it on tour? And he responded with a laugh, "you would be a good partner in a Pro Am scramble". 🤣

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Driver:     :taylormade-small: SIM2 Max 10.5* ... AD-IZ 6SR
Fairway:  :taylormade-small: SIM2 Max 15/18* ... Tensei Raw Blue 65R
Hybrids:    :taylormade-small: SIM2 Hybrid 19* ... Diamana Ltd 65R
Utility:      :taylormade-small: UDi 18* ... Even Flow Black 85R hy
Irons:        :cobra-small: 4-9 MIM Tour ... Steelfiber i95R
Wedges:   :taylormade-small: MG3 46*/50*/58* LB ... Steelfiber i95R
Putter:      :bobby-grace-1: 6330 LTD Edition ...  33.5"
Ball:           Maxfli     Maxfli Tour '22

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On 12/12/2022 at 6:57 PM, Getoffmylawn said:

In the spirit of the "Lower Scores" portion of this thread:  I'm seriously considering using my offseason to get comfortable with it on my basement putting green, and going all in on making the switch to heads up putting.  

Any thoughts?  Fools errand or good idea?

It's worth a try, then you can be satisfied you did it instead of wondering. The point cnosil makes about nobody doing it on the PGA was one I could never get over. If the best players in the world can't make it work, are willing to try anything to improve with financial motivation, and have unlimited time to practice, there is likely a reason it never caught on. 

I tried it and kept stats for 6 rounds as I was supposed to provide them to Lou Stagner for a study he was doing (Practiced 2x before taking on course). I couldn't last the full 10 rounds he wanted data on, especially in Canada with a 6 month golf season. 

Findings (according to Strokes Gained on Shot Scope)
- Was slightly better inside 10', worse from all other distances (felt like I missed some easy 3-4' with bad pulls)
- Worst distance was 30+ feet (averaged stubbing the ground behind the ball probably 1x/round)
- Gut feel was I made more 15-20' putts than traditional method
- To do it long term, I would only use up to around 20'

This last point made me go away from the method. I felt like I would need to be reviewing data to decide on the max length to use it. Would I second guess myself on the course if I had a 21' putt but decided to only go heads up within 20'? Should I strictly limit it to 10' and in based on the data? There was likely a sweet spot between 10-20' for the break even point. 

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On 12/14/2022 at 10:14 AM, chisag said:

...  As you said most sports are target oriented, but I would compare golf closer to baseball because you are hitting a ball at the end of a stick. Granted a baseball isn't stationary but try hitting a baseball by looking where you are aiming, even on a practice batting tee. 

I don't think it's closer to baseball at all.  Not only is there a lot of speed coming at you, but the pitcher is trying to not let you hit the ball.  Even on a practice batting tee, you are swinging a 30oz+ bat horizontally; any slight movement off plane added to the effect of gravity and your strike on the ball is affected... not to mention that you have active wrists and a release of the bat.

Golfers with good strokes have little if any movement of the putter through the ball.  It's why lead hand low and armlock styles are popular; keep the wrists from breaking down.  I consider the club to be an extension of my arms.  BTW, I use a conventional grip.

5 hours ago, BMart519 said:

The point cnosil makes about nobody doing it on the PGA was one I could never get over. If the best players in the world can't make it work, are willing to try anything to improve with financial motivation, and have unlimited time to practice, there is likely a reason it never caught on. 

There really is no reason for the best putters in the world to try heads up putting; they grew up putting the way they do, practicing hours on end, and well... are the best players in the world.  I would say that isn't a reasonable argument why it hasn't caught on.  For the average Joe with putting issues I believe that this method could improve their distance control and potentially make them a better putter... but they have to spend enough time with it until it feels normal to them.  Which brings me to the next issue with people that try heads up putting...

5 hours ago, BMart519 said:

I tried it and kept stats for 6 rounds as I was supposed to provide them to Lou Stagner for a study he was doing (Practiced 2x before taking on course). I couldn't last the full 10 rounds he wanted data on,

Assuming 36 putts per round, less than 400 putts plus some practice putts is not nearly enough time to make a determination!!  Either a player has to commit to it long term or forget it.  

Like I said earlier... it is not for everyone.  It is not a magic putting method; it takes a lot of practice to be comfortable with it.  You still have to make a consistent stroke with proper face angle and path; that is the same.  I still have to practice keeping the putter face square.  I will say that if you can make a stroke looking at the ball and NOT hit the ground, you can make that same stroke not looking at the ball and also NOT hit the ground. In maybe a thousand rounds of golf I hit the ground a few times, but that was when I first started putting this way and I my stroke was so poor I sometimes hit the ground even looking at the ball.

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We don’t stop playing the game because we get old; we get old because we stop playing the game.”

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It's kind of funny to me looking back at the inception of this thread wherein I talked about how I was going to go the Bryson route of adding a bunch of mass in the hope of picking up speed. Since then I've decided I can't get that massive without an undesirable increased in body fat overall, and since then we've seen Bryson have injury problems. I listened to a "Trainfully/Golf Fitness" podcast yesterday with Sasho Mackenzie as the guest, and Sasho said he felt Bryson's mass gains maybe contributed about 2% to his overall speed gains.

Fast foward to now, and I just got an Army-provided health assessment via the War College which put me at 15% body fat, strength and power numbers on the increase.  Add to that a 110 Stack speed (120 driver eSpeed) swing during my Neural Drive workout, and I'm extremely motivated and excited to keep chasing speed in 2023.  I plan to keep Stacking, keep lifting, and really emphasize the mobility work.  Bring on golf in 2023!

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Driver: :titleist-small: TSR2, :Fuji:Ventus Blue 6 S, 65g Stiff

FW: :titleist-small: TSR2 3w, 15,  :Fuji:Ventus Blue 7 S, 70g Stiff

Hybrids:  :callaway-small: Apex Pro 3 & 4H, :Fuji:Ventus Blue 8 S, 80g Stiff

Iron: :mizuno-small:JPX 919 Forged 5-GW, Aerotech Steelfiber i95 Stiff

Wedges: :vokey-small:SM9 54 S Grind bent to 55, 60 M Grind bent to 59, Aerotech Steelfiber i110 Stiff

Putter: :odyssey-small: White Hot OG Double Wide, Stroke Lab shaft

Ball: :titelist-small: Pro V1

Click here for my HONMA TR20 Official Review!

Click here for my in progress Arccos Caddie Bundle test!

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