Hit far, chase, hit far again

[Shankster]

I remember growing up when Tiger was just hitting first gear in his career.  Smashing the ball a mile, not hitting many fairways, and using his short game to his advantage.

Today, there is another game changer doing the same thing. I don’t know if I was to young to notice, but I don’t remember Tiger getting all of the heat from golf media outlets.  Although, he did force Faldo into retirement... Probably because things like social media didn’t exist.

When I play, my goal is to be as close to the green on the first shot as possible.  I have never found many fairways so I am used to being in the trees, rough, or worse.

Distance is king out there, it has been proven for a long time. Even Jack was a long hitter.

Moral of my story is.... I don’t think there is such a thing as a wrong way to play golf... people are just mad they can’t keep up with B.A.D., much like the governing bodies think anchored putting is bad, soon enough driver length will be 41”... 

Just stop, and let them play golf.  If that is a 400 yard drive and a putt... or 250 yards a 7 iron, chip, and putt.  
 

The more I read this the more it is just me rambling... anyways, I am liking my new found distance, and will look for more so I can have the shortest iron in hand on the next shot.

What say you?

[FrogginBullfish]

It's a lot of yelling at clouds mainly. People who don't like change or seeing games evolve. I mean I thought the point of professional sports were to push the boundaries of what's humanly possible. To do that requires people like Bryson and Tiger and Jack before him to take the game to different levels. But even then it's not changing all that much. Sure distance on the whole has increased but the margins amongst the top players has remained consistent. People argue accuracy is down, well obviously it is. Hit the ball 30 yards farther on the same line, it'll be further off line. Simple geometry.

I get the anchoring ban and I support it. It took one of the fundamental skills out of the game. But now I'm seeing people saying armlock should be banned, single length should be banned, etc etc. I postulated a single length ban would be talked about the instant Bryson won a major 2 years ago and now here we are and that exact discussion is happening. I don't know what people in golf want. Do we want to see the best players in the world attack golf courses in the most optimal fashion or are we so infatuated with the idea of pros hitting butterknife 2 and 3 irons that we're willing to go down the road of bifurcation?

I remember growing up when Tiger was just hitting first gear in his career.  Smashing the ball a mile, not hitting many fairways, and using his short game to his advantage.
Today, there is another game changer doing the same thing. I don’t know if I was to young to notice, but I don’t remember Tiger getting all of the heat from golf media outlets.  Although, he did force Faldo into retirement... Probably because things like social media didn’t exist.
When I play, my goal is to be as close to the green on the first shot as possible.  I have never found many fairways so I am used to being in the trees, rough, or worse.
Distance is king out there, it has been proven for a long time. Even Jack was a long hitter.
Moral of my story is.... I don’t think there is such a thing as a wrong way to play golf... people are just mad they can’t keep up with B.A.D., much like the governing bodies think anchored putting is bad, soon enough driver length will be 41”... 
Just stop, and let them play golf.  If that is a 400 yard drive and a putt... or 250 yards a 7 iron, chip, and putt.  
 
The more I read this the more it is just me rambling... anyways, I am liking my new found distance, and will look for more so I can have the shortest iron in hand on the next shot.
What say you?

Sent from my Pixel 2 using MyGolfSpy mobile app

[HardcoreLooper]

Make the ball spin again.  Jack generally kept the power in reserve, because he knew that if he really went after one, he could hit it off the planet.  Even when Tiger first came out (pre Pro v1), there was the chance of the huge miss at high speed.  The big miss is not really in play anymore like it was.  Making the ball spin again will separate the the great players from the merely good ones.  Maybe DeChambeau will still be long and straight with a spinnier ball, who knows?  

I'd be surprised if we go backward on distance, but I'd like to see risk brought back into play.  A relatively riskless round of driver-wedge is not compelling to me.  If players were really courting disaster every time they wanted to give the ball the full treatment off the tee, then long drives would be compelling.

[alfriday101]

I posted the following on another site, but it fits with this discussion:

 

Other professional (and amateur) sports have made rule and equipment changes to counteract athletes getting bigger and stronger when the sport got out of balance--the strategy and integrity of the game was questioned. Why should golf be any different? 

 

Course are designed with certain challenges built in. Green complexes for short par fours are different from complexes for long par fours because the ball flight and stopping power of the a short iron and long iron differ. If players are regularly hitting short irons into greens designed to receive long iron shots, the game is changed. If par fives can be reached with driver and 8 iron, the game has been changed and becomes less strategic. If bunkers are easily flown, they become irrelevant and the game changes. For decades, the solution primarily has been to lengthen courses, which is not sustainable. 

 

Basketball players got taller and faster. The basket was not raised, but they added a three point line and shot clock to keep 7 footers from dominating the game. In football, as the kickers have gotten stronger and more accurate, kicking rules have changed many times--for kick offs, extra points and field goals. They moved the kick off line from the 40, narrowed goal posts, eliminated tees for extra points and field goals. 

 

It is entertaining to watch players hit the long ball. But, long and short are relative terms.

[Cory O]

I’ve posted this in other threads on the topic, but I’ll add to it here. First off, I like a mixture of golf course and tournament styles. Watching the pros go crazy low for four days can be just as engaging as a battle for par. If a particular tournament/course wants to defend against the bombers though, the answer isn’t skinny fairways and deep rough (which actually penalized the shorter hitters more), it’s simply temporary OB. Imagine a 430 yard par 4, have the fairway end at 320, 20 yards of rough, then a 30+ yard temporary OB zone. If a bomber really wants to tempt it, they can, but now they’re looking at a 370 carry. Most of the time they’ll keep it short, but it will be a lot of fun if anyone goes for it. No rule changes or equipment limits needed, just a few white stakes.

[FrogginBullfish]

14 hours ago, HardcoreLooper said:

Make the ball spin again.  Jack generally kept the power in reserve, because he knew that if he really went after one, he could hit it off the planet.  Even when Tiger first came out (pre Pro v1), there was the chance of the huge miss at high speed.  The big miss is not really in play anymore like it was.  Making the ball spin again will separate the the great players from the merely good ones.  Maybe DeChambeau will still be long and straight with a spinnier ball, who knows?  

I'd be surprised if we go backward on distance, but I'd like to see risk brought back into play.  A relatively riskless round of driver-wedge is not compelling to me.  If players were really courting disaster every time they wanted to give the ball the full treatment off the tee, then long drives would be compelling.

I don't know if I agree. Jack and Tiger may have left some power in reserve for the reasons you mention, but when you look at the guy's on Tour right now, no one is going full tilt either. DJ's said in the past he only ever goes 85%. Tony Finau is giving up at least 25-30% with the short backswing. Rahm is likely in the same neighbourhood. Rory is likely with DJ and he's already lost a touch of distance by switching to a higher spin ball in the TP5 vs. the TP5X.

Bryson is the only guy who comes close to maxing out on Tour and even he is only probably giving 95% effort on any given swing. We've seen him get 200+ mph ball speed in practice sessions, he's not really done that on the golf course. Bryson also, despite playing the lower spinning Bridgestone ball, is a high spin player. He routinely spins his driver in the high 2000s. That's hitting up with a 5.5 degree driver too. Give him an even spinnier ball, he'll just take even more loft off the driver. They'd have to introduce a spinnier ball and restrict lofts and length to stop Bryson from chasing distance. Even then, I don't think they'd be too successful. As he said, they can't take the gym away from him. He'll continue to work out. He'll continue to get bigger and stronger and faster. He'll also go through however many iterations it takes him to get through and find out how to optimally deliver the club for enhanced distance with a spinnier golf ball. I just don't see how the USGA or the R&A are going to be able to rein in a guy like Bryson. He's too smart. He's too talented. And above all else, he's too driven in his quest to not find a way around almost any obstacle the governing bodies throw at him. I suppose they could just beat him into submission by taking everything away from him at once like single length, armlock, a slower and spinnier ball, 43" max driver, etc etc, but short of him quitting the game entirely, I believe he'd be back in a year or two max like nothing ever happened.

[HardcoreLooper]

9 hours ago, FrogginBullfish said:

I don't know if I agree. Jack and Tiger may have left some power in reserve for the reasons you mention, but when you look at the guy's on Tour right now, no one is going full tilt either. DJ's said in the past he only ever goes 85%. Tony Finau is giving up at least 25-30% with the short backswing. Rahm is likely in the same neighbourhood. Rory is likely with DJ and he's already lost a touch of distance by switching to a higher spin ball in the TP5 vs. the TP5X.

Bryson is the only guy who comes close to maxing out on Tour and even he is only probably giving 95% effort on any given swing. We've seen him get 200+ mph ball speed in practice sessions, he's not really done that on the golf course. Bryson also, despite playing the lower spinning Bridgestone ball, is a high spin player. He routinely spins his driver in the high 2000s. That's hitting up with a 5.5 degree driver too. Give him an even spinnier ball, he'll just take even more loft off the driver. They'd have to introduce a spinnier ball and restrict lofts and length to stop Bryson from chasing distance. Even then, I don't think they'd be too successful. As he said, they can't take the gym away from him. He'll continue to work out. He'll continue to get bigger and stronger and faster. He'll also go through however many iterations it takes him to get through and find out how to optimally deliver the club for enhanced distance with a spinnier golf ball. I just don't see how the USGA or the R&A are going to be able to rein in a guy like Bryson. He's too smart. He's too talented. And above all else, he's too driven in his quest to not find a way around almost any obstacle the governing bodies throw at him. I suppose they could just beat him into submission by taking everything away from him at once like single length, armlock, a slower and spinnier ball, 43" max driver, etc etc, but short of him quitting the game entirely, I believe he'd be back in a year or two max like nothing ever happened.

I'm not talking about adding spin back to the ball to make it go shorter.  I want to see it curve more, like it did back in the balata days.  At that point, there's more risk in the long ball.  And elite drivers of the golf ball would separate themselves from the pack, which is fine.  Risk is what makes golf compelling.  Hitting driver used to be the risky play.  Now it's risky not hitting driver.

[SlowNLow]

13 hours ago, HardcoreLooper said:

I'm not talking about adding spin back to the ball to make it go shorter.  I want to see it curve more, like it did back in the balata days.  At that point, there's more risk in the long ball.  And elite drivers of the golf ball would separate themselves from the pack, which is fine.  Risk is what makes golf compelling.  Hitting driver used to be the risky play.  Now it's risky not hitting driver.

Is this a ball for all of us or only for tour pros?   

[THEZIPR23]

On 9/22/2020 at 8:03 PM, HardcoreLooper said:

Make the ball spin again.  Jack generally kept the power in reserve, because he knew that if he really went after one, he could hit it off the planet.  Even when Tiger first came out (pre Pro v1), there was the chance of the huge miss at high speed.  The big miss is not really in play anymore like it was.  Making the ball spin again will separate the the great players from the merely good ones.  Maybe DeChambeau will still be long and straight with a spinnier ball, who knows?  

I'd be surprised if we go backward on distance, but I'd like to see risk brought back into play.  A relatively riskless round of driver-wedge is not compelling to me.  If players were really courting disaster every time they wanted to give the ball the full treatment off the tee, then long drives would be compelling.

150 yards offline by a major winner. The ball still goes offline. 

[FrogginBullfish]

1 hour ago, THEZIPR23 said:

150 yards offline by a major winner. The ball still goes offline. 

"That was not a high cut."

[Shankster]

Well I am giving the B.A.D. Approach a try tomorrow.  Wish me luck.  Driver on everything over 300 except 1 hole.  I usually play more conservative... and I have a gallery too.  Should be fun hacking out of the trees all day.

[dlow206]

13 minutes ago, Shankster said:

Well I am giving the B.A.D. Approach a try tomorrow.  Wish me luck.  Driver on everything over 300 except 1 hole.  I usually play more conservative... and I have a gallery too.  Should be fun hacking out of the trees all day.

At my home course, I hit driver on every non-par 3. Not confident at the moment with any other club off the tee unless we are talking hit a 7 iron or above, which wouldn't make sense in my mind.

[Kenny B]

49 minutes ago, dlow206 said:

At my home course, I hit driver on every non-par 3. Not confident at the moment with any other club off the tee unless we are talking hit a 7 iron or above, which wouldn't make sense in my mind.

I always hit driver on all non-par 3 holes (except for one par 3 if the tees are back and the wind is blowing).  I don't hit the ball as far as I used to, and I hit my driver is just as straight as any other long club.  Have to get as close to the green as I can!

[fixyurdivot]

On 9/22/2020 at 7:14 PM, FrogginBullfish said:

It's a lot of yelling at clouds mainly. People who don't like change or seeing games evolve

I don't agree with this statement. A good many people like traditions (myself included) and there is nothing wrong with that point of view. If we evolve the course layouts, many of which are quite outdated and simply landlocked, to keep in step with the advances in technology and player athletic ability, then the distance debate becomes much less an issue.  I've stated in other related threads that I have no desire to see drives rolling up onto par 4 aprons or greens with regularity.  That's not the sport I grew up with and personally would not find interesting to watch.  Perhaps it's time for the Extreme Distance or 3 Club Golf Tour, 7800-8000+ yard courses?  

I recently played with a PGA pro who was practicing for a Rocky Mountain Regional event.  He played black tees (7053/73.9/135) and overpowered a number of holes.  We discussed this very topic.  He wholeheartedly agreed that advances in technology, combined with a significant increase in many more athletes playing the sport, have made many courses undergunned.  He felt some changes are in order but, like so many, not really sure what will work for all involved.

 

 

 

[fixyurdivot]

13 minutes ago, Kenny B said:

I always hit driver on all non-par 3 holes (except for one par 3 if the tees are back and the wind is blowing).  I don't hit the ball as far as I used to, and I hit my driver is just as straight as any other long club.  Have to get as close to the green as I can!

I used to always grab my driver but now finding that strategic use of my 3w improves my odds of lower scores.  If I'm playing the correct tees/yardage, well struck drives leave me in the 140-165 yards on most par 4's. 

[HardcoreLooper]

8 hours ago, SlowNLow said:

Is this a ball for all of us or only for tour pros?   

Sure.  Why not?  If people want to play the same ball as the pros, are ball manufacturers going to be forbidden from selling it to them?

 

6 hours ago, THEZIPR23 said:

150 yards offline by a major winner. The ball still goes offline. 

Touché.  But imagine how much worse it would have been if the ball spun more.  A spinnier ball will create greater separation between the great and the pretty good.  Shots like this one will simply be even more f**ked.

[FrogginBullfish]

Here's my question then, why is a long iron approach shot into a green more exciting than someone driving it 350+ yards close to the green? What makes the traditional brand of golf better than the modern brand of golf?

From a statistical point of view the 350+ yard bombs off the tee brand is the better, more optimal, brand of golf.

We see these statistical approaches in every major sport now too. Basketball discovered that the 3 pointer is much more valuable than a mid-range jumpshot. There's the run-pass option in football. Defensive shifts in baseball. Etc. Etc. Etc.

Every major sport has evolved over the years as we've learned more about them and discovered ways to optimize how we play them. Why does golf seem to be the sport that is resisting the hardest to the realities that the traditional views of it were suboptimal from a technology standpoint, an athletic standpoint, and a strategy standpoint?

I don't have the answer to how some of the older, more "classic" courses can challenge the best players in the world with the traditional ideology of how those courses were "designed" to be played. I just know there has to be an answer out there that doesn't involve bifurcation. I also know there's not going to be a perfect solution. And maybe the best solution is to just accept that the game is different to what you grew up with and maybe that's not such a bad thing.

Maybe it's a generational thing, but for me personally, I'm honestly almost as excited about what Bryson is doing now as I was with what Tiger did in the 2000s when I was a teenager first getting into golf. And really, a lot of the things Bryson is doing are built upon ideas that Tiger made readily apparent to the golfing world. Bryson's just expanded on it with his own approach.

I don't say all this to dismiss traditions. I just think golf as a whole needs to accept the fact that the best players in the world are going to be able to shoot really low scores at a lot of golf courses. It's not like the pros from 30 or even 50 years ago weren't capable of going extremely low on the courses they played either.

I don't agree with this statement. A good many people like traditions (myself included) and there is nothing wrong with that point of view. If we evolve the course layouts, many of which are quite outdated and simply landlocked, to keep in step with the advances in technology and player athletic ability, then the distance debate becomes much less an issue.  I've stated in other related threads that I have no desire to see drives rolling up onto par 4 aprons or greens with regularity.  That's not the sport I grew up with and personally would not find interesting to watch.  Perhaps it's time for the Extreme Distance or 3 Club Golf Tour, 7800-8000+ yard courses?  
I recently played with a PGA pro who was practicing for a Rocky Mountain Regional event.  He played black tees (7053/73.9/135) and overpowered a number of holes.  We discussed this very topic.  He wholeheartedly agreed that advances in technology, combined with a significant increase in many more athletes playing the sport, have made many courses undergunned.  He felt some changes are in order but, like so many, not really sure what will work for all involved.
 
 
 

Sent from my Pixel 2 using MyGolfSpy mobile app

[HardcoreLooper]

24 minutes ago, FrogginBullfish said:

Here's my question then, why is a long iron approach shot into a green more exciting than someone driving it 350+ yards close to the green?

I can't answer this question for other people, only for myself. 

A long, high iron approach just looks good in the air.  When it starts 20 feet left of the pin and just tips over to the right, lands pin high and rolls a few feet to leave the player with a well-earned 10 footer for birdie?  That's just brilliant.  Or a slinging draw that hits into the false front to kill the speed, then rolls up to 15 feet?  Chef's kiss.  It's precision, over a long distance.  It separates the technically strong with speed (you can't hit a long iron if you're slow) from the merely fast.  Proximity to the final target is probably also a factor in it.  The differences between the great shot, the average shot and the poor shot are immediately apparent.

A 350 yard drive that finishes within the playing corridors leaving the player with a wedge just isn't as compelling to me.  TV coverage gives you very little feel for length, and the target (which now is the corridor, with the fairway just being a bonus) is so much larger.  It just doesn't have the precision of the approach shot, so it's not as interesting to me.  Golf is exciting when the margin of error is small and the penalty for failure (or even mediocrity) is large.

That's not to say that the power game isn't the right way to play the game right now.  It obviously is.  Does it make me want to watch?  I fast-forward through quite a bit of it.

[Kenny B]

3 hours ago, fixyurdivot said:

I used to always grab my driver but now finding that strategic use of my 3w improves my odds of lower scores.  If I'm playing the correct tees/yardage, well struck drives leave me in the 140-165 yards on most par 4's. 

Yeah, you are a big hitter.  Not Chris big, but still big.  Well-struck drives at my course leave me with anything between LW to 3H depending on the which par 4 hole.  I like the wedge shots; the 3H and 6i shots, not so much.  My odds of hitting the green go way up, the closer I get to the green.

[alfriday101]

I go back to the point that "long" and "short" are relative terms.  If balls or clubs are restricted, Bryson et al will still be long hitters relative to the other players.  When (insert name of long hitter from the past) was bombing drives, it was exciting because he was longer than the others of his time, even though he hit it much shorter than today's players.  If most players are hitting it 250, we will still marvel at the 280 yard drive.    

 

The real issue deals with absolute distance.  Golf courses are designed to offer certain challenges.  When absolute distance gets too great, the challenge changes.  The solution to more and more absolute distance the past few decades has been to lengthen courses.  This is expensive, very expensive--for construction, moving hazards and increased maintenance.  Some land locked courses can't be lengthened.

 

Why does this matter?  Well, think of a long par 4.  Let's say 450 yards.  Currently a long drive leaves a sand wedge into the green.  The player has one difficult shot to execute--the drive.  Even that shot doesn't have to be very precise, just long.  With a sand wedge in hand, green side bunkers and angles into the green don't matter nearly as much as when hitting a long iron or fairway wood into the green.  The premium is on hitting it as far as one can and then wedge it close.  The difference between long and short holes is pretty much eliminated from a design standpoint.       

 

Not too many years ago the player would have to hit two good shots.  First the drive.  Distance was a big factor, but so was putting it in the fairway to have a shot at the green, and into the right part of the fairway to give the best approach. The player then had to execute the more difficult second shot.  Long, difficult second shots have pretty much disappeared on tour and many amateur events on par fours.  About the only place they show up now is the second shot on par 5s.  

 

As to other sports, reread my comment earlier in the thread:  post 4.  Other sports have changed, and changed significantly, to keep one type of player or one area of the game from dominating and changing the game.    The 3 point shot in BB has been brought up a number of times.  Well, it may surprise a few younger members of this forum, but BB was played for 90 years before the three point line was added.  I remember how boring BB got when big men started dominating and the strategy was to dribble down the court and feed it to the big guy, rinse and repeat.  The 3 point line counteracted that.  It brought the small guys back into the game by making their shot worth an extra point.  

 

In my post above, I mention the changes that have occurred in football regarding the kicking game. In the late 60s kickers started getting much better and the game got more boring.  Look up Jan Senerud. The game got to the place where a team would get across mid field and kick a field goal.  Was it exciting to watch him kick a a long field goal?  Sure, a couple of times.  Once others started doing it and it became routine, not so exciting because the game itself was less exciting.  The NFL (and colleges) reacted by making changes.  It used to be that if a filed goal was missed, no matter where it was kicked from, the defending team took over on the twenty.  The rule changed to taking over from the line of scrimmage where the kicking team had the ball when the field goal was kicked.  Field goal kickers used to kick off a wooden block.  That was eliminated and they required the holder to put the ball on the ground.  Goal post were moved back in the AFL.  Eventually, goal post were narrowed.  

 

Baseball doesn't allow aluminum bats and they have controls on the balls.  Imagine if the baseball had added a proportional amount of distance as the golf ball over there last 40 years.  Would it still be exciting if home runs were 30% easier to hit?  Bats and balls haven't changed much in baseball over the last 100 years.  Are they anti-technology?   

 

Also, the other sports that have been mentioned are different from golf in one very important way.  In BB and football, player performance improvements on offense are balance out by player performance improvements on defense.  The offensive players are getting bigger and faster and stronger, but so are the defensive players.  The goal of scoring a touchdown doesn't get easier because the receiver can run faster; the defensive back is just as fast as the receiver.  The game itself stays in balance.  

 

In golf, the players hit it farther and higher and balls spin less offline.  The course (the defense) doesn't change proportionately and it becomes much easier to accomplish the goal of getting the ball in the hole 450 yards away.   

 

This is why I think the kicker example in football is particularly applicable.  The defense couldn't develop to counteract the affects of long kickers.  Each team could get a long kicker, so they remained competitive with the other team, but the role of kicking, the strategy of when to kick a field goal and when to punt or go for it, changed--to the detriment of the game.  So the equipment and rules for kicking had to be changed to preserve the game.  I think that's kind of where we are with golf right now.  You have players who are the equivalent of long kickers.  The design of courses and the strategy to play it is much less relevant-- to the detriment of the game.   

 

 

 

 

Edited September 25, 2020 by alfriday101

[Bosox04]

13 hours ago, fixyurdivot said:

I don't agree with this statement. A good many people like traditions (myself included) and there is nothing wrong with that point of view. If we evolve the course layouts, many of which are quite outdated and simply landlocked, to keep in step with the advances in technology and player athletic ability, then the distance debate becomes much less an issue.  I've stated in other related threads that I have no desire to see drives rolling up onto par 4 aprons or greens with regularity.  That's not the sport I grew up with and personally would not find interesting to watch.  Perhaps it's time for the Extreme Distance or 3 Club Golf Tour, 7800-8000+ yard courses?  

I recently played with a PGA pro who was practicing for a Rocky Mountain Regional event.  He played black tees (7053/73.9/135) and overpowered a number of holes.  We discussed this very topic.  He wholeheartedly agreed that advances in technology, combined with a significant increase in many more athletes playing the sport, have made many courses undergunned.  He felt some changes are in order but, like so many, not really sure what will work for all involved.

 

 

 

Regardless of traditions, the game has always changed. They went to rubber balls from featheries. Steel shafts from hickory. Metal woods from persimmon. Solid core balls from wound. The invention of the sand wedge. The 60 degree wedge. Shoot, at one point, they didn't even allow center shafted putters. All these changes either added distance, or made the game easier. Sure, the long hitters have an advantage, but they have always had an advantage. One tradition that will never go away is, that regardless of the equipment, there still are a lot of players that still can't hit the middle of the club face, still slice, and still three putt. The guys that overpower a course are the absolute cream of the crop. That guy you played with was probably very good, but his talent is nowhere close to the guys on Tour. The game at the elite level has changed a bunch, but the typical club golfer is still trying to put two or three good shots together. I really hope the USGA and R&A don't react to the Pros in a way that will hurt the recreational player.

[FrogginBullfish]

11 hours ago, HardcoreLooper said:

I can't answer this question for other people, only for myself. 

A long, high iron approach just looks good in the air.  When it starts 20 feet left of the pin and just tips over to the right, lands pin high and rolls a few feet to leave the player with a well-earned 10 footer for birdie?  That's just brilliant.  Or a slinging draw that hits into the false front to kill the speed, then rolls up to 15 feet?  Chef's kiss.  It's precision, over a long distance.  It separates the technically strong with speed (you can't hit a long iron if you're slow) from the merely fast.  Proximity to the final target is probably also a factor in it.  The differences between the great shot, the average shot and the poor shot are immediately apparent.

A 350 yard drive that finishes within the playing corridors leaving the player with a wedge just isn't as compelling to me.  TV coverage gives you very little feel for length, and the target (which now is the corridor, with the fairway just being a bonus) is so much larger.  It just doesn't have the precision of the approach shot, so it's not as interesting to me.  Golf is exciting when the margin of error is small and the penalty for failure (or even mediocrity) is large.

That's not to say that the power game isn't the right way to play the game right now.  It obviously is.  Does it make me want to watch?  I fast-forward through quite a bit of it.

I think you'd probably be disappointed even if the long iron approach shot was brought back into the fold. There are very few, if any, coaches on Tour that are teaching their guys to shape the ball on every shot. Pretty much every guy out there can do the 9 box drill, but when it comes to playing the game, most coaches today are preaching to their players to own one shot shape. The only time they'd coach a player to hit a different shot shape than that is if the situation truly demanded it, i.e. there's an obstruction blocking them from hitting their preferred shape. You'd never see DJ hit that drawing 3 iron. Not unless there were trees obstructing his ability to hit a fade. He'd also be targeting the fat part of the green and would likely never take on a pin with a 3 iron. Even as good as he is. The corridor you talk about with the driver is the same approach a lot of these young guys are using throughout their bag. They're utilizing their shot variances to pick their targets rather than trying to force a shot at the pin with a shape they're uncomfortable hitting. Even some of the older guard are on board with this thought process. Heck, Tiger's basically done it his entire career.

I also wonder though why a guy like Bryson who hit 58% of his fairways last season with a driving distance over 322 yards doesn't meet your qualifications of precision over a long distance. Tour average GIR is 65% and that covers all approach shots. It's like 46% as you get over 200 yards. Their proximity from over 200 yards ranges from 50 to 75 feet from the hole. These guys are good, but they're not that good that they can pull off the shots you talk about so fondly with any shred of consistency.

Edited September 25, 2020 by FrogginBullfish
typo

[DiscipleofPenick]

Didn't Arnie say Grip it and Rip it 50 years ago?

I've actually started going the other direction. My home course is 6600 from the back tees, and I hit driver on 7 holes. When the course really dried out in July/August, I only hit driver on 5 holes. I could hit it on 10 holes, but there's little reason to hit it on some of them.

The first hole is 320, and I'm not loose enough to try and drive the green. #12, is 415 yards, but the driver landing zone is 15 yards wide between a hazard and OB. #3 is the odd one because there's no obvious reason to not hit driver, but I'm usually at a better distance with a 3 wood.

It's about staying back to a full shot with a club I trust instead of having an in between distance where I can't control spin.

Take Dead Aim

[DiscipleofPenick]

Regardless of traditions, the game has always changed. They went to rubber balls from featheries. Steel shafts from hickory. Metal woods from persimmon. Solid core balls from wound. The invention of the sand wedge. The 60 degree wedge. Shoot, at one point, they didn't even allow center shafted putters. All these changes either added distance, or made the game easier. Sure, the long hitters have an advantage, but they have always had an advantage. One tradition that will never go away is, that regardless of the equipment, there still are a lot of players that still can't hit the middle of the club face, still slice, and still three putt. The guys that overpower a course are the absolute cream of the crop. That guy you played with was probably very good, but his talent is nowhere close to the guys on Tour. The game at the elite level has changed a bunch, but the typical club golfer is still trying to put two or three good shots together. I really hope the USGA and R&A don't react to the Pros in a way that will hurt the recreational player.

I've said that before too. Don't rule against everyone because 15 guys on tour destroy it.

Take Dead Aim

[fixyurdivot]

23 minutes ago, Bosox04 said:

Regardless of traditions, the game has always changed. They went to rubber balls from featheries. Steel shafts from hickory. Metal woods from persimmon. Solid core balls from wound. The invention of the sand wedge. The 60 degree wedge. Shoot, at one point, they didn't even allow center shafted putters. All these changes either added distance, or made the game easier. Sure, the long hitters have an advantage, but they have always had an advantage. One tradition that will never go away is, that regardless of the equipment, there still are a lot of players that still can't hit the middle of the club face, still slice, and still three putt. The guys that overpower a course are the absolute cream of the crop. That guy you played with was probably very good, but his talent is nowhere close to the guys on Tour. The game at the elite level has changed a bunch, but the typical club golfer is still trying to put two or three good shots together. I really hope the USGA and R&A don't react to the Pros in a way that will hurt the recreational player.

Fair points, and yes, at present it is a very small percentage of tour players driving (no pun intended) the debate.  Personally, I just like seeing the pros play more of their golf bag then the increased hitting distance and landlocked course lengths allow.  The USGA and R&A can do nothing (at least that I can think of) to limit physical strength and swing mechanics.  Playing the round with Thane really made it clear just how much of an advantage big distance hitting is. 

@Shanksterin the background 

[revkev]

I remember growing up when Tiger was just hitting first gear in his career.  Smashing the ball a mile, not hitting many fairways, and using his short game to his advantage.
Today, there is another game changer doing the same thing. I don’t know if I was to young to notice, but I don’t remember Tiger getting all of the heat from golf media outlets.  Although, he did force Faldo into retirement... Probably because things like social media didn’t exist.
When I play, my goal is to be as close to the green on the first shot as possible.  I have never found many fairways so I am used to being in the trees, rough, or worse.
Distance is king out there, it has been proven for a long time. Even Jack was a long hitter.
Moral of my story is.... I don’t think there is such a thing as a wrong way to play golf... people are just mad they can’t keep up with B.A.D., much like the governing bodies think anchored putting is bad, soon enough driver length will be 41”... 
Just stop, and let them play golf.  If that is a 400 yard drive and a putt... or 250 yards a 7 iron, chip, and putt.  
 
The more I read this the more it is just me rambling... anyways, I am liking my new found distance, and will look for more so I can have the shortest iron in hand on the next shot.
What say you?

I agree with you on all points except ones- Tiger was actually quite straight (for how long he hit it) with driver when he first came it. Mid career was when Tiger’s accuracy with driver started to suffer.

All sports change. I love baseball, absolute love it. It has changed so much over the past decade that it’s incredible - it will change again as hitters start to learn how to defeat the shifts thrown at them.

I love golf as well. I’m not going to be one of those old guys who doesn’t appreciate the games evolution.


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[revkev]

I agree with you on all points except ones- Tiger was actually quite straight (for how long he hit it) with driver when he first came it. Mid career was when Tiger’s accuracy with driver started to suffer.

All sports change. I love baseball, absolute love it. It has changed so much over the past decade that it’s incredible - it will change again as hitters start to learn how to defeat the shifts thrown at them.

I love golf as well. I’m not going to be one of those old guys who doesn’t appreciate the games evolution.


Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

[Shapotomous]

15 minutes ago, revkev said:

 

 

I agree with you on all points except ones- Tiger was actually quite straight (for how long he hit it) with driver when he first came it. Mid career was when Tiger’s accuracy with driver started to suffer.

All sports change. I love baseball, absolute love it. It has changed so much over the past decade that it’s incredible - it will change again as hitters start to learn how to defeat the shifts thrown at them.

I love golf as well. I’m not going to be one of those old guys who doesn’t appreciate the games evolution.


Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

 

 

I have to get my rant on baseball in.....

I love baseball, played for many years,  legion, college, summer leagues, into my 30's and only quit playing because of bad elbow & shoulder issues.   I DESPISE the way hitters approach the game today......HR or K.  If there is a shift on then much like a golfer with one shot shape in his bag they do not make any adjustment but try to hit it over the shift for a HR.  Unless you are facing the Phillies current bullpen you are likely to fail.  If defenses tried to play a shift on Brett, Carew, Rose or Gwynn I set the over / under on their average at .550.  

I watch less and less baseball each year.  Apparently I am not alone as their ratings seem to drop a bit and the younger fans are not getting involved in the game.  I hope golf is careful about how it evolves the game so it doesn't follow baseballs path.

[DaveP043]

4 hours ago, Bosox04 said:

Regardless of traditions, the game has always changed. They went to rubber balls from featheries. Steel shafts from hickory. Metal woods from persimmon. Solid core balls from wound. The invention of the sand wedge. The 60 degree wedge. Shoot, at one point, they didn't even allow center shafted putters. All these changes either added distance, or made the game easier. Sure, the long hitters have an advantage, but they have always had an advantage. One tradition that will never go away is, that regardless of the equipment, there still are a lot of players that still can't hit the middle of the club face, still slice, and still three putt. The guys that overpower a course are the absolute cream of the crop. That guy you played with was probably very good, but his talent is nowhere close to the guys on Tour. The game at the elite level has changed a bunch, but the typical club golfer is still trying to put two or three good shots together. I really hope the USGA and R&A don't react to the Pros in a way that will hurt the recreational player.

I agree with this completely.  Willie Park won the first Open Championship with a score of 174.  The tournament was played going 3 times around the 12 holes at Prestwick, 3800 yards.  That corresponds to about 5700 yards for 18 holes, and an average 18-hole score of 87.  What do you think Willie Park would have thought to see Bobby Jones play?  And Jones was astonished at Nicklaus playing a "game with which I am not familiar".  And Nicklaus thinks the same about Dustin and Bryson.  Part of it has been equipment, part has been conditioning of the players, part has been changes in the courses, and part has been tactical changes. Golf is going to continue to change, we can't turn back the clock.

I agree with @revkev:

1 hour ago, revkev said:

I love golf as well. I’m not going to be one of those old guys who doesn’t appreciate the games evolution.

 

 

 

[revkev]

I have to get my rant on baseball in.....
I love baseball, played for many years,  legion, college, summer leagues, into my 30's and only quit playing because of bad elbow & shoulder issues.   I DESPISE the way hitters approach the game today......HR or K.  If there is a shift on then much like a golfer with one shot shape in his bag they do not make any adjustment but try to hit it over the shift for a HR.  Unless you are facing the Phillies current bullpen you are likely to fail.  If defenses tried to play a shift on Brett, Carew, Rose or Gwynn I set the over / under on their average at .550.  
I watch less and less baseball each year.  Apparently I am not alone as their ratings seem to drop a bit and the younger fans are not getting involved in the game.  I hope golf is careful about how it evolves the game so it doesn't follow baseballs path.

I also played baseball through legion and college - With all due respect I can assure you that none of the players you mentioned would hit .550

Pitching is overwhelmingly better than they faced as is scouting - hence the shifts - great players those guys, but they did not have to face upper 90’s, guy after guy after guy, often got four cracks at the same pitcher who may have had his count on the 120’s by that time. Today it’s more common for a hitter to face a different pitcher every at bat than see one three times.

Baseball will evolve, guys coming up will learn to adapt to defeat shifts and then pitchers will evolve to get them out.




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